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Rabbi pleads with Darwinian atheists: Turn back from legal pedophilia. But they can’t.

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Moshe Averick
Jewish? I'll pester you until you take your heritage seriously ...

The Maverick Rabbi, author of The Confused, Illusory World of the Atheist speaks up on the unmentionable subject in “A Plea to Atheists: Pedophilia Is Next On the Slippery Slope; Let Us Turn Back Before It Is Too Late” (Algemeiner, August 29, 2011) Moshe Averick points out that materialist atheism is intrinsically amoral. One results is capsuled by the journey of a philosophy professor:

Joel Marks, Professor Emeritus of Philosophy at the U. of New Haven, who for 10 years authored the “Moral Moments” column in Philosophy Now, made the following, rather shocking about-face in a 2010 article entitled, “An Amoral Manifesto.”

“This philosopher has been laboring under an unexamined assumption, namely that there is such a thing as right and wrong. I now believe there isn’t…The long and short of it is that I became convinced that atheism implies amorality; and since I am an atheist, I must therefore embrace amorality…I experienced my shocking epiphany that religious fundamentalists are correct; without God there is no morality. But they are incorrect, I still believe, about there being a God. Hence, I believe, there is no morality.

Marks then quite boldly and candidly addresses the implications of his newfound beliefs:

“Even though words like “sinful” and “evil” come naturally to the tongue as say a description of child molesting. They do not describe any actual properties of anything. There are no literal sins in the world because there is no literal God…nothing is literally right or wrong because there is no Morality…yet we human beings can still discover plenty of completely naturally explainable resources for motivating certain preferences. Thus enough of us are sufficiently averse to the molestation of children and would likely continue to be…

At this point the utter intellectual (and moral) bankruptcy of Marks’ position becomes apparent. After correctly concluding that a world without God is free from the shackles of the illusory concepts of morality and immorality, he pathetically attempts to have his cake and eat it too by suggesting that there is something “good” or “better” about the preference to being averse to child molestation.

Well, Darwin – the materialist atheist’s only true deity – could explain the preference of some for molesting girls because it sexualizes a girl early, resulting in more selfish genes being spread later. Of course, he can’t offer quite the same explanation for molesting boys. Oh wait, Darwinian theory accounts for homosexuality because gays can help siblings raise children, thus spreading some of their selfish genes more successfully. Thus molesting boys gets them into the habit of helping others spread their selfish genes.

What about those uptight folk who oppose the practice? Darwin can explain that too, as it happens: They evolved in such a way as to conserve their selfish genes until there is a high chance of success.

It all lays waste to any argument for protecting children.

In this context, “atheists” means “materialist atheists,” of course. The Dalai Lama (as other Buddhists) is technically an atheist, but the heart of Buddhism is the idea that the cosmos is – among other things – profoundly moral. Thus karma forbids any escape from the consequences of one’s actions. That kind of atheism is unlikely to catch on seriously in today’s West.

The Darwinian atheist, by contrast, thinks that morality is an illusion, as Michael Ruse puts it – maybe useful, maybe not. But the atheist decides which it is, depending on the preferences dictated by his selfish genes. That’s just so much more attractive.

How will it end? In “Our atheist commenters have kindly explained why atheism is doomed”, we see how atheists will destroy atheism: From time immemorial, people who flirt with “no actual morality” are easy prey for people dedicated to an evil morality.

See also: “Rabbi: Dawkins claimed that a debate he lost had never occurred – until it was posted online”, featuring yet another rabbi who doesn’t play rollover for Darwinists.

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Comments
Well, first of all, CY, I'm not "clinging" to anything right now! I "clung" to theism for fifty years before dropping off the perch! I think this is an important point, actually, because there is an interesting symmetry, in that many of the theists here are ex-atheists, whereas most atheists (including me) are ex-theists. And so there's a tendency for both "sides" to think that the "clingers" are the ones who still hold the view that oneself has rejected! I can't exactly remember what I said about a First Cause - I do recall saying (because it's what I think) that it's not a very interesting question theologically. There may be some uncaused cause at the heart of the world, but I see no reason to think it is a mind, and lots of reasons to think it isn't. It might turn out simply to be a necessary property of non-existence. Or, possibly, that there is no first cause at all, that "first" is simply a notion that we can't shed because we exist in a causally ordered dimension. But I'm not trying to argue it away - I think it's an interesting question, scientifically, just not theologically! And I don't think that theism resolves the conflicts at all - I think it creates conflicts where none need exist. Presumably you've seen this gif? http://www.raige.net/pictures/images/sig_occam.gifElizabeth Liddle
September 8, 2011
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es58,
What seems to be missing is something that comes from deeper than “logic”, an innate sense, (spiritual perhaps?), that just “knows” this is wrong, beyond any logic. But, a materialist can’t grant the existence of such a source.
Could there be a relation there to the fact that some animals are born with very complex behaviors immediately available to them after birth that they have to use to survive even immediately after birth? Obviously these "instinctive" sequences of actions don't reside in the sperm or the egg but nonetheless are available for use. So from whence they came? Perhaps that "knowing" (presumably many many bits of FCSI are embodied in such behavior) comes from the same source you mention here? What do you think?GailPlatt
September 8, 2011
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Elizabeth, Some territory we've covered where we've had some agreement: A first cause is necessary. You acknowledged this in at least one post that I can recall; although you did not agree that it is foundational, just "theoretically" true (not your exact words). We've reached agreement on that because we've covered the ground on first principles. There are moral grounds that are self-evident. Again, we've reached agreement due to first principles. (i.e., torturing babies is wrong and to believe otherwise is patently absurd). Since a necessary first cause would be also necessarily transcendent over all that is true, the first principles we depend on for anything that is primary or fundamental depend entirely on the existence of a necessary first cause and nothing else. Even morality falls into the trap of an infinite regress unless there is in actuality and not simply in "theory" a necessary first cause to ground morality. Otherwise all that we refer to as truth/morality collapses. So atheism is rendered patently absurd on these two foundations alone. You've agreed to these (in principle or theory) in at least two posts that I can think of, but what you've failed to do (as far as I've seen) is to take the necessary next step in aligning them fully with a worldview. I see a real conflict between things that you've already agreed are reasonable and the worldview that you cling to. Such a conflict must be difficult. This is why I believe theism is far more satisfying, because it resolves such conflicts, but that isn't the primary reason why it is true; it's merely what would be expected if it is true. I think the next step is in recognizing these two issues as not only reasonable in theory, but foundational to what IS true; not just what we determine is true.CannuckianYankee
September 8, 2011
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Bertrand Russell said: "I cannot see how to refute the arguments for the subjectivity of ethical values, but I find myself incapable of believing that all that is wrong with wanton cruelty is that I don't like it" first half, speaks of [logical] refutation, and he is declaring that there are no logical arguments to support objective morality 2nd half, speaks of his personal beliefs, and states that he can't accept torturing babies. Of course, that could be because his genetic makeup, deterministically, leads him to dislike it. What seems to be missing is something that comes from deeper than "logic", an innate sense, (spiritual perhaps?), that just "knows" this is wrong, beyond any logic. But, a materialist can't grant the existence of such a source. What to do?es58
September 8, 2011
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As you point out, if a truth is "self-evident" then surely, by definition, anyone can see that it is true, including atheists. So I remain puzzled by your claim that:
However, self-evident truths have a way of rendering atheist thought absurd in itself. Atheist thought tends to avoid self-evident truth and the underlying congruence of first principles (those principles that are primary, as in “self-evident”) altogether.
I see no basis for this assertion! And although I accept that you think "the territory has been covered sufficiently", it seems to me that the assertion remains unsupported. Unless you are referring to the fact that IDists regard ID as "self-evident" and atheists (and many non-atheists) don't. But I'm afraid that atheists (and many non-atheist) regard ID arguments as just as "self-evidently" fallacious! It's one of the reasons I set up my site actually. To provide a place where people can get together to figure out why what seems "obviously" or "self-evidently" true to one group of people can seem "obviously" or "self-evidently" false to another. On the whole, I don't think either "side" is faking it. Anyway, if you want to drop by, it's here: http://theskepticalzone.com/wp/ Chris Doyle posted a couple of times, but unfortunately seems to have deleted his posts, which I greatly regret. I hope he will return, and that you might join him. And of course I extend the welcome to everyone else here.Elizabeth Liddle
September 8, 2011
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Elizabeth (long time) "Exactly. Why do you need to be a theist to see what is self-evident?" I think the point KF is making is not that one needs to be a theist to see it as self-evident, but that it is self-evident. There are atheists on here who believe that morality is relative. Apparently you're not one of them. But the larger point is that a purely atheistic worldview does not lend itself to self-evident morality. It comes from somewhere else. If you want to say it's immoral because it doesn't lead to a goal of self-preservation (or whatever other goal or ideal); it's not exactly what self-evident means. Self-evident means that it cannot appeal to any goal or other truth to guide it. It is true in order for anything else we call morality to be true. It's true because it is; just as 2+3=5 is true because it just is. It's absurd to believe otherwise, just as KF pointed out that a denial that torturing babies is wrong is patently absurd. Now, you don't need to be a theist to believe that things are self-evident. However, self-evident truths have a way of rendering atheist thought absurd in itself. Atheist thought tends to avoid self-evident truth and the underlying congruence of first principles (those principles that are primary, as in "self-evident") altogether. So you're quite the atheist anomaly if that's what you accept. I know you'll attempt to object by asking "why?" but we've been through this enough to know that such attempts are circular. The territory has been covered sufficiently.CannuckianYankee
September 8, 2011
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Blue_Savannah: right on the money. Since chemical reactions are amoral, and if we are nothing but bags of chemical reactions, everything we do is amoral. In that case, “we” don’t really “do” anything. “We” quite literally react.
No, I this is fallacious. It commits the fallacy of composition - of inferring a property of the whole from a property of the parts. To give an example from wikipedia: Human cells are invisible to the naked eye. Humans are made up of human cells. Therefore, humans are invisible to the naked eye. It also renders the concept of "agency" meaningless. Used in your sense, it would be meaningless to describe any causal relationship above the level of the atom (and why stop there?) It would be meaningless, for example, to say that meteorites make craters on the moon's surface, or that glaciers carve U shaped valleys and leave moraines. People make moral decisions, chemicals don't. The unit of agency is the person, not the chemicals. As you say, all the chemicals do is react. People do far far more.Elizabeth Liddle
September 8, 2011
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I agree, completely. Very nicely put.Elizabeth Liddle
September 8, 2011
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Exactly. Why do you need to be a theist to see what is self-evident?Elizabeth Liddle
September 8, 2011
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Thanks, Allanius :) Yes, I would agree that life is good, but I would also say that love is greater :) You might like this story I wrote a few years back, for a children's carol service:
The Garden The garden was hot. Rainwater shone on the dark leaves, and dripped into the pools of the stream. On a grassy bank, a peacock strutted lazily. God was lonely. “Are you happy in my garden?” God asked the peacock. “Do you know who I am?” The peacock stopped. He spread his beautiful tail, scattering raindrops in the sunlight, but he did not answer. God wandered along the banks of the stream, deeper into the woodland. A python slithered across the path. “Are you happy in my garden?” God asked the python. “Do you love me?” The python’s wet scales glistened in the shadows of the leaf-mould, but he did not answer. High in the green canopy, God could hear monkeys chattering. “Are you happy in this garden I made for you?” God called. “And do you love me?” The monkeys paused for a moment in their chatter, and threw mango stones at God, but they did not answer. God came to a clearing. A little girl was sitting on a log, poking the embers of a fire with a stick. “Are you happy in my garden, Eve?” asked God. Eve looked up. “I love the garden,” she said. “I love it too” said God, “but I need a gardener. Will you be my gardener?” “I would,” said Eve, “if it wasn’t for the python”. “You don’t have to love the python” said God. “I’ll love the python”. “I don’t love the mosquitoes either” said Eve. “Don’t worry about the mosquitoes” said God, “I’ll love the mosquitoes. Will you look after the garden for me?” “Maybe” said Eve. “Come back tomorrow”. And she ran off into the woodland. The next day, God came back to the clearing. Eve was sitting on her log, stirring the embers of her fire. “And will you be my gardener?” asked God. “Yes”, said Eve. “Until….” “Until when?” said God. “Until I have children of my own” said Eve. “And what will happen to my garden when you have children of your own?” asked God “Oh”, said Eve. “When I have children of my own I won’t have any time for your garden. And I’ll have to protect my children from the python.” “You will love your children more than you love my garden?” asked God. “Oh yes”, said Eve. “When I have children, I will love them more than anything in the world. I will weep when they are sad, and when they are happy, my heart will be filled with joy.” “That is how I love my garden” said God. “I weep when my creatures are sad, and when they are happy, my heart is filled with joy. But more than anything else I would love to be loved as you will love your children. Will you be my mother? Eve laughed at God. “I love you, God, but how could I be your mother! You are not a child!” And she skipped off into the woodland, still laughing. * * * * * * * A long time passed. Winter came to the garden. The stream froze, and frost withered the glossy leaves. When summer returned, the hot sun dried the stream, and the garden became a desert of sand and rocks and caves. Yet foxes lived in the caves, and tortoises lived in the damper sand below ground. The python was gone, but sidewinding snakes made their home in the shifting dunes. God wandered the garden, and loved it still. And still God searched for a mother, a mother who would love God as a child, as God loved that barren garden and all its creatures. But whenever God asked, they laughed. How could God have a mother? How could God be a child? One winter’s day, on a bank of pebbles by a dry stream bed, God came across a girl sitting on a rock, stirring the embers of a fire with a stick. God said to the girl: “You remind me of my gardener. Her name was Eve”. The girl said: “My name is Mary”. “Eve looked after my garden until her children were born” said God. “She kept it watered and fertile, and looked after all the creatures that lived in it. Then she had her own children to love, and she didn’t care about the garden anymore, and she chased away the python. My garden is dry and bare now, though it is still beautiful”. “I will look after your garden” said Mary. “I love the foxes, and the tortoises, and even the snakes. I will be your gardener.” “Until your children are born” said God. “Oh no, said Mary. “When I have children of my own I will love it even more because it will be my children’s garden too. When the foxes are hurt we will weep together, and when we see the tortoises burrowing in the sand we will laugh together. And when we see the snakes winding sideways across the sand, we will be filled with joy.” “You will be the most loving mother since time began!” said God. “How I wish you could be my mother!” “But how could you have a mother?” asked Mary. “You are not a child.” “A child is what I want to be”, said God. “I love my garden, but the creatures in my garden do not know who I am. If they do not know me, they cannot truly love me, as they sometimes love each other. That is why I want to be a child”. Mary’s eyes opened wide. “And you would like to be my child?” “Yes”, said God. “Then I will be your mother”, said Mary. And one winter’s night, under frosty stars, she kept her word.
I guess the story still has power for me :)Elizabeth Liddle
September 8, 2011
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Torturing babies is wrong. Try, having understood this, to deny it without immediate, patent absurdity. That is the key test of self-evidence.kairosfocus
September 8, 2011
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PS: read this piece, written by Richard Dawkins in the Guardian exactly ten years ago: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/sep/15/september11.politicsphilosophyandsociety1 It's pertinent to this discussion in many ways, and acutely topical. It should put the lie to the canard that Richard Dawkins denies the existence of good and evil.Elizabeth Liddle
September 8, 2011
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Chris, can you explain what you mean by "illusory"? In what sense are "meaning and purpose" "illusory" in a universe that doesn't have a God? I'm wondering if this is the sticking point. (BTW, you have misread Dawkins: he doesn't say that there is no Good and Evil in the universe - he says the universe itself is neither good nor evil. He has perfectly prosaic and traditional views on good and evil deeds.)Elizabeth Liddle
September 8, 2011
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And to continue...
If I have ever used the phrase “objective morality”, it was an error (or just laziness, not wanting to distinguish between “morality” and “the good” for the umpteenth time). Please read over my contributions to date; I have repeatedly made the distinction between “the good”, which is presumed under theistic morality to be an objective commodity, and “morality”, which is a subjective description of how to achieve or fulfill that good in terms of “oughts”.
OK. I am happy to use your terms and refer to an objective good, and accept that you regard "morality" as a subjective description of how to achieve it.
As I have repeatedly said: morality is not objective. What is assumed to be objective is that which moral rules attempt to describe in terms of “ought”. We can either assume that what we are describing objectively exists outside of our subjective interpretation, or we can assume that what we are describing is itself a subjective commodity.
OK. I just don't see how this helps you, if you don't know what the objective good actually is.
Moral systems based on the assumption of an objective good are superior to moral systems based on the assumption that “good” is itself subjective in nature only in the sense that they are rationally sound and provide the necessary grounding for a rationally consistent and sustainable morality that doesn’t necessarily lead to diabolical logical conclusions.
How can they be "rationally sound" if they involve subjective descriptions as to what actions will achieve an unknown objective good? If you don't know where the place you want to get to is, merely knowing that it "objectively exists" won't help you get there!
That is not to say that every theism-based moral system necessarily produces better moral behavior, nor does it necessarily mean that all theism-based moral systems are immune to diabolical ends or irrational moral claims. Just because one believes in god doesn’t mean their moral system is sound or even good.
Exactly. So not only is there no objective way of figuring out what the objective good is, there's no objective way of knowing which of several putative objective goods is the true Objective Good.
Since everything humans do is through the lens of subjective experience and interpetation, should we then abandon reason for solipsism in all things?
No. Because we have the huge benefit of other people's views of the world and our near-unique capacity to see the world from another point of view.
Yes, what society considers good is constantly changing.
So, do you agree you have contradicted an earlier statement you made where you agreed that “harming others needlessly” or “torturing infants for personal pleasure” were examples self-evidently immoral actions?
No, I think they are, precisely because they are what consensus produces. The main reason that the boundaries change is because the boundaries of the collective itself change. Many societies regard only their own members as bound by their ethical system, and regard outsiders - other tribes, sub-groups, sub-classes as outside the pale of "others". As centuries have gone by, we seem to be learning to extend our concept of what constitutes "others", to include those beyond our families, national borders, racial group, normal range, etc.
It can either be true that it is self-evidently wrong to needlessy harm others, or it can be true that needlessly harming others is good as long as the consensus agrees. You can’t have it both ways.
Sure I can. What is self-evident is what is evident to any observer. If something is evident to you, but not to me, then it's not "self-evident" is it? It's a matter of debate.
….even though there is no objective way of evaluating what that standard is.
By this hyperskeptical view of what “objectively evaluating” something, there is no “objective way” of evaluating anything. Everything comes to knowledge through the lens of subjective interpretation. Are you advocating general solipsism as well as moral solipsism?
No, as I've said above. I'm not a solipsist at all. You seem to think there is no middle ground between solipsism and absolute objectivity. There is - there's shared experience. We know things are likely to be true (likely to reflect "objective reality") if different observers report the same phenomena under similar conditions, using similar instruments. That's how science derives its objectivity. It's not perfect - we still have measurement error, we still need double-blind trials and inter-rater reliability tests, and error estimates and so on, but many people constantly critiquing the consensus ensures that it moves closer and closer to reality - that the models fits the data better and better. I suggest exactly the same is true of morality, as long as we don't get bogged down in arguments about which authoritative holy book represents the True Objective Good. Even politics has moved on, in my lifetime: the Tea Party may hate Obama with a passion, but both sides accept the same basic ethical premises - that what good government should do is facilitate the welfare of its citizens. The argument is merely about how best it should do this. And, sometimes, about who constitutes the citizens.
Unless you know what that “objective” standard is, your standard is neither more or less subjective than mine,
Once again: the pertinent question is not whether we can prove our objective standard actually existent (you cannot even prove our physical surroundings to not be a dream or a hallucination), but rather what the consequences are that extend from the axiomatic, a priori assumptions we make about what “the good” is.
I can provide very good evidence that our physical surroundings are not a dream or a hallucination by testing it for regularities - by consulting, if you will, the consensus. If ten people in a room agree there is a brick on the table there is probably a brick on the table. If one person says their is no brick, but a hedgehog, that person is probably hallucinating. And we can tell for sure by collecting more data. That's a huge amount closer to objectivity that the a priori axiomatic assumption that some objective good exists, when it appears also axiomatic that we cannot know what that good actually consists of (except subjectively!) This is not true of a brick.
To wit: if you premise a theism with non-removable doctrine that leads one to perform self-evidently immoral acts, then that particular theistic premise is incorrect. Check your premises. Back to the axiomatic drawing board. and neither less nor more “diabolical”. I’ll leave it to the reader which has more diabolical potential; that which allows anything given a consensus, or that which holds all moral claims answerable to logically coherent inferences drawn from self-evidently true moral statements.
Well, I'd like an example, as I said, of a "self-evidently true moral statement". If "torturing babies for personal pleasure is wrong" I would agree. I suggest that it is precisely because there is such widespread consensus on this that you are justified in saying that it is a "self-evidently true moral statement".Elizabeth Liddle
September 8, 2011
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If you “quite possibly” agree “that many of [the looters] did not believe they would be brought to account for their crimes: not in this life, nor the next” then on what grounds can an atheist rationally condemn their acts? In such circumstances, looting was perfectly rational. And all you have to say to this is “so what?” This is an illustration of the very point we’ve been making about atheistic morality! Do you blame the motor and drink industries for the fact that people have murdered innocents whilst driving under the influence of alcohol, Mark? Do you blame “The Origin of Species” for the Final Solution? If not, then why are you mentioning the 9/11 terrorists? The Qu’ran is full of condemnation for evil acts, not encouragement (and, no, they were not ‘martyrs’ nor could they even pretend to be). By the way, there is an easily recognisable and entirely reconcilable difference between Thou Shalt Not Kill and Capital Punishment. Most believers are like me in that respect: all for both, without any contradiction. Now, it is true that my whole argument assumes the premise that “there is a Creator who set the rules” and it is only rational and logical to conclude “therefore we must follow them.” That is what the Theistic Worldview is all about. It’s frankly not my problem that an atheist doesn’t accept the truth of my premise. It is enough to show that, if that premise was true, the conclusion follows cogently. Let’s be honest, if you did not deny the Theistic Worldview, you would not be confused enough to even question “whether the rules are actually good”. Only the perversity of atheism can generate such absurd doubts. There is no higher good than Religious Morality. That is why most atheists borrow their moral values from religion, many of them (including you Mark) cannot properly function without them. Nor is Religious Morality elusive or difficult to learn: did you read “The Poison of Subjectivism”? I’m not telling you what you think and believe and Mark. I’m reminding you of the unavoidable consequences of atheism and the logical . It was the widely followed atheist, Richard Dawkins who said: The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference. You don’t need to be an atheist to fully appreciate the implications of that statement. Despite your protests, meaning and purpose really are illusory in such a universe. So is morality. There is absolutely no meaningful difference between you wanting to be moral or wanting to be immoral in a universe without Good or Evil. I don’t need to argue that this is the case for atheists. Richard Dawkins – and all of his many followers – already admitted that this is the case for atheists! The onus is on you, Mark, to explain why Dawkins is wrong about atheism. And that explanation needs to amount to more than “my life is meaningful and moral so that settles it”.Chris Doyle
September 8, 2011
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MarkF, Unfortunately there may be some equivocation. When everyone says "theism" they doubtless mean their own version. If they don't they should. It's absurd to say that picking any one of various contradictory theistic religions was good and only not picking one was wrong. Even within the context of Christianity we're told as much. Using Jesus' name means nothing. Miracles mean nothing. Size especially means nothing. Only doing what Jesus did and what he said matter. For a theist that should be an astonishing thought - being large and using Jesus' name do not establish a religion as genuine. So no, X does not mark the watermelon. (I've always wanted to say that.) We have to thump them and smell them and cut them open.ScottAndrews
September 8, 2011
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Markf: A rational debate (as opposed to "a debate" or "a conversation") is qualified as "rational" for a reason; it is supposed to adhere to the rules of right reason, as described by argument theory. So, a better analogy would be that I say I want to play X variant of chess, and you agree; then you start playing by Y variant rules to gain advantage, then when I call you on it you absolve yourself by saying "it seems to me that X also means Y".William J Murray
September 8, 2011
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NB: since we are conscious subjects, every act of mind is inescapably subjective. The question is whether some acts of mind connect to a real, beyond the mind world, one whose reality we intersect with in common. Objective acts, up to some possibility of error and refinement, intersect with that world with sufficient warrant that we are wise to accept these as substantially true; e,g. common-sense day to day life experiences, scientific observations of fact, etc..kairosfocus
September 8, 2011
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I’ll leave it to the reader which has more diabolical potential; that which allows anything given a consensus, or that which holds all moral claims answerable to logically coherent inferences drawn from self-evidently true moral statements.
Give me an example of a self-evidently true moral statement.Elizabeth Liddle
September 8, 2011
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Folks: We are down to the definitionitis question. Okay, let me clip a clip from David Clarke and Robert Rakestraw, used in the intro to phil course ethics unit (which may be helpful for those trying to figure out what is really going on here with the fancy footwork moves):
Principles are broad general guidelines that all persons ought to follow. Morality is the dimension of life related to right conduct. It includes virtuous character and honorable intentions as well as the decisions and actions that grow out of them. Ethics on the other hand, is the [philosophical and theological] study of morality . . . [that is,] a higher order discipline that examines moral living in all its facets . . . . on three levels. The first level, descriptive ethics, simply portrays moral actions or virtues. A second level, normative ethics (also called prescriptive ethics), examines the first level, evaluating actions or virtues as morally right or wrong. A third level, metaethics, analyses the second . . . It clarifies the meaning of ethical terms and assesses the principles of ethical argument . . . . Some think, without reflecting on it, that . . . what people actually do is the standard of what is morally right . . . [But, what] actually happens and what ought to happen are quite different . . . . A half century ago, defenders of positivism routinely argued that descriptive statements are meaningful, but prescriptive statements (including all moral claims) are meaningless . . . In other words, ethical claims give no information about the world; they only reveal something about the emotions of the speaker . . . . Yet ethical statements do seem to say something about the realities to which they point. “That’s unfair!” encourages us to attend to circumstances, events, actions, or relationships in the world. We look for a certain quality in the world (not just the speaker’s mind) [--> the former is objective, the latter is merely subjective] that we could properly call unfair. [Readings in Christian Ethics, Vol. 1: Theory and Method. (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 2002), pp. 18 – 19]
I trust this helps clarify, for those who need it. (And, remember, we are talking about a case where people are attempting to use clever arguments rooted int eh dominance of evolutionary materialism and its radical relativism and amorality, to make preying sexually on little boys and girsl seem acceptable.) GEM of TKIkairosfocus
September 8, 2011
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Yes, I do. I'm sorry if it irritates you, but, in general, it's my habit not to state as bald assertions propositions that I think may be subject to legitimate debate or falsification. But I am more than happy to state what I believe to be the case (as I have already done - that's precisely why I preface such statements with phrases like "it seems to me...").
...tell me what your basis is for your moral system – what you believe authorizes you to make moral arguments to others about what is and is not right, and tell me what principles must be considered. Flesh out your moral structure from axiomatic grounding to fundamental principles to a demonstration of logical inferences towards sound moral conclusions for some specific moral question – as I have already done.
I don't believe I am authorized to make moral judgments to others about what is and is not right. I do believe I am capable of making moral arguments to others as to what is and what is not right, but you do not need "authority" to make an argument. Indeed "argument from authority" is a well-known fallacy. I would argue that definitional basis for any ethical system, is the promotion of the welfare of everyone at the expense of no-one. I say definitional, rather than axiomatic, because we pretty well universally define an ethical system, as one that regulates individual decision-making in a manner that suppresses actions that will tend to harm others, and promotes actions that will tend to benefit them. Other systems of rules and principles that regulate individual decision-making exist, of course, but we do not call them "ethical" - we might call them "hedonistic" or "power-seeking" or "destructive" or "despotic" but we do not call them "ethical". And I suggest that the reason we have this word, "ethics", is because as human social animals we recognise that what suits us immediately and personally is not necessarily what will benefit all of us, and that if most people co-operate, all will tend to benefit, whilst if some people cheat, others will suffer. Devising a collective ethical system in which co-operation is rewarded and cheating is punished is therefore a sensible and coherent group strategy, and, given our human capacity for abstraction, we do it rather well. Now, given that ethics is definitionally (as I have argued) based on the principle of constraining individual choices in favour of what minimises harm and maximises benefit to others, the Golden Rule (found in many formulations, in many societies, at many times, in both theistic and atheistic cultures) is an obvious fundamental axiom: treat others as you would be treated yourself, which should perhaps be elaborated as: Treat others not simply as you would be treated yourself, but as you would wish to be treated were you in their position. So let's take homosexuality, as I have already brought it up, and it seems a good case of where theistic morality is inferior in many cases to the system I am proposing. Moral question: Is it right or wrong to have homosexual sex? Perfectly straightforward answer according to the axiom I have presented: as long as my partner also desires to have sex with me, and is unlikely to come to any harm, or regret his/her decision, and no other people are likely to be injured or distressed, then, yes. Here's another: Is it right or wrong for an adult to have sex with someone under the age of, let's say, 15? Perfectly straightforward answer: if I am considerably older than 15 myself, then it is highly likely that my partner, even if currently willing, may come to regret the relationship, and feel that they were unfairly exploited by someone in a more powerful position. So, no.Elizabeth Liddle
September 8, 2011
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Elizabeth said:
You appear to think that the mere act of stating that there exists some absolute moral standard (what you call “objective” morality)
If I have ever used the phrase "objective morality", it was an error (or just laziness, not wanting to distinguish between "morality" and "the good" for the umpteenth time). Please read over my contributions to date; I have repeatedly made the distinction between "the good", which is presumed under theistic morality to be an objective commodity, and "morality", which is a subjective description of how to achieve or fulfill that good in terms of "oughts".
... is enough to remove the subjectivity from our moral judgements – that a morality can be “objective”, and thus be superior to mere “subjective” morality by the simple fact of existing...
As I have repeatedly said: morality is not objective. What is assumed to be objective is that which moral rules attempt to describe in terms of "ought". We can either assume that what we are describing objectively exists outside of our subjective interpretation, or we can assume that what we are describing is itself a subjective commodity. Moral systems based on the assumption of an objective good are superior to moral systems based on the assumption that "good" is itself subjective in nature only in the sense that they are rationally sound and provide the necessary grounding for a rationally consistent and sustainable morality that doesn't necessarily lead to diabolical logical conclusions. That is not to say that every theism-based moral system necessarily produces better moral behavior, nor does it necessarily mean that all theism-based moral systems are immune to diabolical ends or irrational moral claims. Just because one believes in god doesn't mean their moral system is sound or even good.
..even though there is no objective way of evaluating what that standard is.
Since everything humans do is through the lens of subjective experience and interpetation, should we then abandon reason for solipsism in all things? We've already been over this.
That is the elephant in the room you are ignoring.
I haven't ignored it; I've explained this repeatedly.
Yes, what society considers good is constantly changing.
So, do you agree you have contradicted an earlier statement you made where you agreed that "harming others needlessly" or "torturing infants for personal pleasure" were examples self-evidently immoral actions? It can either be true that it is self-evidently wrong to needlessy harm others, or it can be true that needlessly harming others is good as long as the consensus agrees. You can't have it both ways.
....even though there is no objective way of evaluating what that standard is.
By this hyperskeptical view of what "objectively evaluating" something, there is no "objective way" of evaluating anything. Everything comes to knowledge through the lens of subjective interpretation. Are you advocating general solipsism as well as moral solipsism?
Unless you know what that “objective” standard is, your standard is neither more or less subjective than mine,
Once again: the pertinent question is not whether we can prove our objective standard actually existent (you cannot even prove our physical surroundings to not be a dream or a hallucination), but rather what the consequences are that extend from the axiomatic, a priori assumptions we make about what "the good" is. To wit: if you premise a theism with non-removable doctrine that leads one to perform self-evidently immoral acts, then that particular theistic premise is incorrect. Check your premises. Back to the axiomatic drawing board.
and neither less nor more “diabolical”.
I'll leave it to the reader which has more diabolical potential; that which allows anything given a consensus, or that which holds all moral claims answerable to logically coherent inferences drawn from self-evidently true moral statements.William J Murray
September 8, 2011
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Yes - but what criteria do you use for deciding which is a good watermelon? Some people here seem to be arguing that the criteria for choosing watermelon X is that it is watermelon X!markf
September 8, 2011
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Perhaps it's better to say an "objective source of morality" than "objective morality." Regardless of what anyone believes, we all have to make lots of choices without knowing beyond a doubt which is right. Only the easy ones are usually easy. To drastically oversimplify, we could compare selecting the right source of morality (or moral code) to buying a watermelon. First, you discard the ones that have worms coming out of them. Next, you tap on them to see which ones sound good (whatever that sounds like.) You reject a few because something seems wrong with them. Finally you take one home. Perhaps you cut it open and it smells funny. So you take it back and repeat. The process is subjective, but it will lead to a good watermelon. Unless that is, someone is a hurry and doesn't care what kind they get, or they would just rather eat whatever melon they inherited from their parents, or, worst case scenario, they just don't care if they eat a bad melon or maybe they even like worms. Or they might just not want a watermelon. I think everyone needs a good watermelon, but there's only so much I can say about the benefits of watermelons. (Not sure why I picked that one. I hate watermelons.)ScottAndrews
September 8, 2011
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Onlookers: QED . . . GEM of TKIkairosfocus
September 8, 2011
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Please do not mistake respect and courtesy for flaccid argument.
You really consider the insertion of rhetoric that implies fundamental fault with my argument under cover of an unchallengable qualifier (it seems to me ..., or I feel that...) to be a respectful and courteous addition to a logic-based debate? How about this: tell me what your basis is for your moral system - what you believe authorizes you to make moral arguments to others about what is and is not right, and tell me what principles must be considered. Flesh out your moral structure from axiomatic grounding to fundamental principles to a demonstration of logical inferences towards sound moral conclusions for some specific moral question - as I have already done. And try doing it with actual assertions that open your system up to critical examination, not under the ground cover of qualifiers like "it seems to me" and "I feel that".William J Murray
September 8, 2011
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William: It seems to me (and I make no apology for that locution) that you are evading a point I have made repeatedly. You appear to think that the mere act of stating that there exists some absolute moral standard (what you call "objective" morality) is enough to remove the subjectivity from our moral judgements - that a morality can be "objective", and thus be superior to mere "subjective" morality by the simple fact of existing even though there is no objective way of evaluating what that standard is. That is the elephant in the room you are ignoring. Yes, what society considers good is constantly changing. We no longer, mostly, flog people. In most of the world we no longer think it that judicial killing is justified. In most of the world we consider that certain forms of interrogation under duress are morally wrong. This has changed from earlier times (when, mostly, incidentally, belief in God was more widespread than it is now, as was fear of hell). What makes consensus morality more objective than individual morality is simply the very fact that it is arrived at through consensus, i.e. collectively, just as when several people measure the amount of liquid in a pipette and come to nearly the same answer, we can say it is "objectively" 5 ml. You seem to think you have escaped what you call the "diabolical" implications of the inevitable "subjectivity", or, at least, the mutability, of the processes by which we devise our moral standards simply by claiming that some "objective" standard exists. That is fallacious, in my view. Unless you know what that "objective" standard is, your standard is neither more or less subjective than mine, and neither less nor more "diabolical".Elizabeth Liddle
September 8, 2011
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A minor point for now:
Do you remember when you asked me to specifically point out where you made “arguments” (and rebuttals) by referring to the way things seem to you?
Read my sentence again carefully. I am not making an argument by referring to the way things "seem" to me. I am simply stating (not arguing) that "it seems to me" that your argument boils down to the paraphrase I gave. That is a simple true statement - that is exactly how "it seems" to me. I could have written that your argument does boil down to my paraphrase, but that would have been an assertion about your argument, which you may well disagree with. So instead I informed you that "it seems to me" that your argument boils down to what I said. I could equally well have written that "in my opinion" it does so. Please do not mistake respect and courtesy for flaccid argument.Elizabeth Liddle
September 8, 2011
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It seems that, taken to extremes, logic confuses truth instead of establishing it. If I say, "Every house was built by someone, therefore this house also required a builder," a person can reason that yes, all houses have builders. It's simple, and they arrive at the correct conclusion. Or they might ask, "What is a house? Something people can live in? Is a cave a house? What is 'built?' Did they build the screws and nails?" Such questions are logical, but they tend to confuse what should be simple. I won't speak for theism in general, but the Bible is not 'designed' to mount an assault on such a defense. There have been times when God chose to convince people of his existence against their will by means that circumvented logic and got right to the point. Even then not all believed. So I explain what I can because it's the current topic, but it's not realistic that I might persuade anyone through logic if they aren't inclined to be persuaded. If anything, the inability to penetrate those defenses can only make my position appear weaker.ScottAndrews
September 8, 2011
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OK. I will answer it here.
I didn’t assume all the looters were atheists, but I certainly believe that many of them did not believe they would be brought to account for their crimes: not in this life, nor the next. Wouldn’t you agree?
Quite possibly – so what?
And if I’m making life easy by choosing Thou Shalt Not Steal instead of Contraception, then that is only because religious morality is universal, fundamentally very straightforward and easy to understand. I could have picked Thou Shalt Not Kill, or Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery, or Honour Thy Father and Thy Mother and you would still be complaining while missing this point,
Actually I think “Thou Shalt Not Steal”  is a bit of an exception. Clearly the 9/11 terrorists (who were were committed Muslims) did interpret “Thou Shalt Not Kill” the way we would. Even Christians allow that killing is actually permissible under rather complicated circumstances – Just Wars, Capital Punishment etc.  But anyhow my point is that religious moral systems have some differences, it really doesn’t matter how few they are, and there is no objective way of standing “outside” the systems and deciding between them.
Before we “forget” about the analogy, there is another important flaw in your reasoning which the analogy exposes and it is this: While Rugby Union is like Judaism and Rugby League is like Islam, Atheism rejects the fact that the game (or “test”) of rugby exists in the first place and it certainly rejects the notion that there is a Law-giving authority who sets the rules of the game. So, believers understand that this life is a test and that our performance in this test will be rewarded accordingly after the test is over. The Final Judgment will involve the perfect, true and just ruling of the Supreme Being in accordance with the Moral Law (ie. rules of the game) that most religions prescribed for us. Atheists on the other hand, do not even realise that life is a test: indeed, for them, existence is utterly without meaning or purpose in this indifferent universe. Atheists believe that death only brings oblivion: regardless of how ‘good’ or ‘evil’ the life was led (‘Good’ and ‘Evil’ being nothing more than illusory man-made concepts in the first place). Atheists are free to play whatever game they like or invent whatever rules they like (and change or break them whenever it suits). They have absolutely no reason to play rugby, let alone follow the rules of rugby and if they are doing either then they are living a lie by irrationally subscribing to exclusively religious teachings. I’m a big fan of analogies and extending them as far as is reasonably possible. But even if I have to admit that the question you asked, though more literal than analogous, will certainly lead to a failure in this analogy. When it comes to sports like rugby, then we can talk of revising the rules to suit the changing nature of the game and the changing technology that can better serve it. Indeed, this is exactly what has happened: evidenced by the many changes to all aspects of rugby, including to the rules and even the lawgivers, since 1823. Rugby is a man-made activity and thus, from the very beginning, the law-givers were just normal people (flawed and limited) who couldn’t foresee all possible outcomes of the game, all the changing variables nor even appreciate the changing demands of the participants and spectators. So, when you try to compare religion to rugby through this analogy, then the analogy fails. Although the world around us has changed dramatically, particularly the further back into the past we go, the Moral Law itself will never change. Or, as Jesus himself said: “Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” Although we are all leading unique, perhaps even tailor-made, tests we must all follow the same rules and we are certainly in no position to dispute, let alone change, them. Remember, the rules – the Moral Law – were set by none other than the Creator (who is not only vastly superior and wiser than all humans, but also knows everything we think and do). In light of these facts, you can see how absurd it is to even ask whether humans can make the game of life better, or more ‘interesting’, by making up the rules ourselves (or even cherry-picking from religion). You can only argue rationally about morality if you accept that you’re playing the game in the first place and that the rules have been set by the Master of the Day of Judgment (to whom we will all need to account for ourselves). Morality belongs exclusively to religion. That’s exactly why atheism and morality are, rationally speaking, completely incompatible and irreconcilable.
This whole argument seems to assume your premise – that there is a Creator who set the rules and therefore we must follow them.  Even if we have to follow them or get burned in hell it doesn’t follow they are good rules.   We still have the separate subjective decision as to whether the rules are actually good.  You are saying there is only set of rules for Rugby and they will never change because of this force which will zap us if we do differently.  Even under those circumstances we can still debate in our mind whether they are actually good rules. I do wish you would stop telling me what Atheists think and believe.  I am one.  You are not. I find plenty  meaning or purpose in my life. I have plenty of reason to be moral.  It is because I want to. There is absolutely nothing irrational or self-deceptive about that and it is not in any way dependent upon or parasitic upon religion.  You never argue for these statements about Atheists.  You just assert them. And of course I can argue rationally about morality without accepting “that you’re playing the game in the first place and that the rules have been set by the Master of the Day of Judgment “.  People do it all the time.  Try me on a moral issue and see.markf
September 8, 2011
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