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Rabbi pleads with Darwinian atheists: Turn back from legal pedophilia. But they can’t.

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Moshe Averick
Jewish? I'll pester you until you take your heritage seriously ...

The Maverick Rabbi, author of The Confused, Illusory World of the Atheist speaks up on the unmentionable subject in “A Plea to Atheists: Pedophilia Is Next On the Slippery Slope; Let Us Turn Back Before It Is Too Late” (Algemeiner, August 29, 2011) Moshe Averick points out that materialist atheism is intrinsically amoral. One results is capsuled by the journey of a philosophy professor:

Joel Marks, Professor Emeritus of Philosophy at the U. of New Haven, who for 10 years authored the “Moral Moments” column in Philosophy Now, made the following, rather shocking about-face in a 2010 article entitled, “An Amoral Manifesto.”

“This philosopher has been laboring under an unexamined assumption, namely that there is such a thing as right and wrong. I now believe there isn’t…The long and short of it is that I became convinced that atheism implies amorality; and since I am an atheist, I must therefore embrace amorality…I experienced my shocking epiphany that religious fundamentalists are correct; without God there is no morality. But they are incorrect, I still believe, about there being a God. Hence, I believe, there is no morality.

Marks then quite boldly and candidly addresses the implications of his newfound beliefs:

“Even though words like “sinful” and “evil” come naturally to the tongue as say a description of child molesting. They do not describe any actual properties of anything. There are no literal sins in the world because there is no literal God…nothing is literally right or wrong because there is no Morality…yet we human beings can still discover plenty of completely naturally explainable resources for motivating certain preferences. Thus enough of us are sufficiently averse to the molestation of children and would likely continue to be…

At this point the utter intellectual (and moral) bankruptcy of Marks’ position becomes apparent. After correctly concluding that a world without God is free from the shackles of the illusory concepts of morality and immorality, he pathetically attempts to have his cake and eat it too by suggesting that there is something “good” or “better” about the preference to being averse to child molestation.

Well, Darwin – the materialist atheist’s only true deity – could explain the preference of some for molesting girls because it sexualizes a girl early, resulting in more selfish genes being spread later. Of course, he can’t offer quite the same explanation for molesting boys. Oh wait, Darwinian theory accounts for homosexuality because gays can help siblings raise children, thus spreading some of their selfish genes more successfully. Thus molesting boys gets them into the habit of helping others spread their selfish genes.

What about those uptight folk who oppose the practice? Darwin can explain that too, as it happens: They evolved in such a way as to conserve their selfish genes until there is a high chance of success.

It all lays waste to any argument for protecting children.

In this context, “atheists” means “materialist atheists,” of course. The Dalai Lama (as other Buddhists) is technically an atheist, but the heart of Buddhism is the idea that the cosmos is – among other things – profoundly moral. Thus karma forbids any escape from the consequences of one’s actions. That kind of atheism is unlikely to catch on seriously in today’s West.

The Darwinian atheist, by contrast, thinks that morality is an illusion, as Michael Ruse puts it – maybe useful, maybe not. But the atheist decides which it is, depending on the preferences dictated by his selfish genes. That’s just so much more attractive.

How will it end? In “Our atheist commenters have kindly explained why atheism is doomed”, we see how atheists will destroy atheism: From time immemorial, people who flirt with “no actual morality” are easy prey for people dedicated to an evil morality.

See also: “Rabbi: Dawkins claimed that a debate he lost had never occurred – until it was posted online”, featuring yet another rabbi who doesn’t play rollover for Darwinists.

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Comments
My theism-based moral arguments here are not predicated on anything found in the Bible.William J Murray
September 7, 2011
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God cannot change what good is, what reason is, what existence is, what intention is, nor can god change the necessary relationships of those fundamental principles, because that is what god ***is***
I'm almost with you, except for stating what God cannot do. The Bible says that for him to lie is impossible, although that may indicate a consistent choice rather than a limitation. The Bible describes him as the epitome of many qualities, but only as the personification of one, love. The Bible emphasizes not just imitation, but also obedience. For that reason God cannot "be" the morality he expects of us, because he never needs to be obedient. That also means that what we might call morality is subject to change, because the instructions we obey are also subject to change. It was difficult for Hebrew Christians to learn that what they considered moral absolutes were only temporary laws. It's evident that certain principles will never change, but certain specific behaviors might. The Bible sidesteps the morass of objective vs. subjective morality. The emphasis is not on morality, but on recognition of God's authority and obedience to him. His laws and principles contain all of his expectations of us, both our inner thoughts and our actions. Therefore we don't need to 'be moral' or 'have morality.' We just need to obey. See how that clears things up? Now there's no question of whose morality is grounded, etc. There's only the question of whether we choose to obey.ScottAndrews
September 7, 2011
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Freekin phone. My apologies. You are as impotent in logic as you are in empiricism.Upright BiPed
September 7, 2011
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I want to take something Elizabeth said in this thread:
There are plenty of incentives for atheists to act morally, not least being social disapproval and punishment, but for more importantly being the fact that behaving well to our fellow creatures tends to make us happier (I can even cite you studies if you like).
....and use to show the blatant stolen concept she is employing (not that it matters to her). Notice that she says ... "There are plenty of incentives for atheists to act morally ...." First, morality is a set of "oughts"; "oughts" are statements of preferred actions/behaviors that are employed to reach a goal or fulfill a purpose. IOW, "What road should I take" is a meaningless question unless one knows what the driver is subjectively trying to achieve. Are you trying to get to Sacramento? Are you trying to get to the nearest gas station? Are you looking at scenery? Do you want to find a convenient, isolated area to bury your ill-conceived worldview? But notice, Elizabeth speaks as if she knows what the specific, subjective goals of atheists are. She even lists some incentives for them without even posting what she thinks the their goal is that would correspond to those incentives; she says atheists "ought" to act in a way that avoids social disapproval, ought to act in a way that avoids punishment, and ought to act in a way that makes them feel happy. She's also said that people ought to act in a way that doesn't needlessly harm others. But she doesn't even know what their goal is! What if their goal is to change the morals of the society to accept things that are not currently acceptable? Would the same incentives apply? What if the moral goal of the atheist was to point out the hypocrisy of the current social order? What if the goal of the person in question is to self-destruct into nihilistic misery? What if they consider pursuit of happiness a moral failing? What if happiness and legalities must be abandoned to reach their goal? No, Elizabeth can only offer such blanket "incentives" for "moral behavior" for atheists if she assumes that what morality describes is in fact objective and would be universally applicable towards any real moral goal whether pursued by an atheist or a theist. Otherwise, she'd have to admit that she has no idea what would incentivize any atheist towards their goal until she found out what their goal was.William J Murray
September 7, 2011
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Dr Liddle, You are as impotent are at empiricism. It's in your phenotype and thus unavoidable, it seems.Upright BiPed
September 7, 2011
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Elizabeth said:
It’s your word, not mine. But let me accept it for now.
What does that mean? You either have something more substantial than whatever you subjectively feel is a good principle, or you do not. Replacing what you subjectively feel is a good principle with another principle you subjectively feel is good changes nothing. Oughts necessarily pertain to goals or purpose. If I ask, "what is the best road to take" (corresponding to "how should I act"), and you reply "Highway 63 because it is very scenic" ("we should try not to harm anyone"), the problem is that you have not ground your answer in anything other than your personal view of what "best" means - the most scenic route. You have answered my question about how I should act based on your personal preference of what goal you would like to pursue. If I don't care about scenery, your answer is not helpful. The only intelligent, honest response for a moral relativist to the question "how should I act" is "What are you trying to accomplish?", because "how one should act" is necessarily relative to the goal they have personally selected. Only if there is a universal, objective goal or purpose for humanity can one rationally respond to the question "how should I act" with a specific principle, such as "do not intentionally and needlessly harm others", without asking them "what are you trying to accomplish?". When you and other atheists offer such moral rules without even asking others "what are you trying to accomplish" and without the explanation "Well, I'm trying to accomplish X, so I act this way, but I don't know what you're trying to accomplish, so I can't say how you should act", you are stealing the concept of an objective purpose for humanity. As has already been argued and not refuted, purpose only exists in the mind of a sentient entity; if humans have an objective purpose (and not subjective, arbitrary ones they each pick individually, but rather one that exists independent of their choices and beliefs to the contrary) from which universal "oughts" can be drawn (such as the golden rule or the categorical imperative), that can only be because a sentient entity has generated humankind for that purpose. If we were not created by a sentient entity for a purpose, then it would be our subjective choice. We can invent our own purpose.
OK, sure. Sometimes we do harm unavoidably. I’m happy to stipulate that we don’t call someone immoral if they couldn’t have done otherwise.
No. It is okay to harm others purposefully if there is good reason.
I see nowhere where anyone has resolved, or even attempted to resolve Euthyphro’s dilemma.
Euthyphro's dilemma isn't relevant to what I have argued. God doesn't command what is good, nor does god command us to be good. God ***is*** good; God ***is*** reason; God ***is*** existence; God ***is*** intention; good is not good because god has commanded it; good is good because it is what it is - it is a first principle. God cannot change what good is, what reason is, what existence is, what intention is, nor can god change the necessary relationships of those fundamental principles, because that is what god ***is***. How do we know what specific acts/intentions are good/not good? The same way we know anything about anything; we find self-evidently true moral statements; we take those statements, combined with other necessarily true first principles (right reason, existence, capacity to discern true statements), and reason necessarily true moral statements; find generally true moral statements, and solutions to contingencies.
A couple of people have claimed that the specific miracles of Christianity ....
Take that up with them, then.
On the other hand, you and kairosfocus seem to want to have both horns without resolving the dilemma. At least I see no resolution in any of the links kf has given, nor in your own posts.
Resolution to what? Show me where the dilemma exists in my argument, not in the amalgation of my argument with other arguments from other theistic views. [blockquote]And the question is very simple: How do you know that God is good if you don’t know first what good is?[/blockquote] How do you know that a peach tastes like a peach unless before you taste your first peach you already know what a peach tastes like? Can you taste of a peach and say, "that doesn't taste like a peach"? It is the peach that defines what "tastes like a peach". God is taken as the definition of good. You don't compare god to some set of rules and conclude that god is good; God is what the rules of good are derived from. "Good" for humans is a goal that implicates a direction, and those directions are "oughts"; an "ought" cannot exist without a sentient entity; there cannot be a universal set of "oughts" for all humans unless humans were created by a sentient entity to fulfill a purpose. It is appropriate to label such an entity "God".
And if you already know what good is, why do you need to believe in God to figure it out?
Belief in God is a necessary ramification of the belief that an objective good exists from which moral rules are subjectively interpreted but are universally applicable. One must believe in an objective good in order to develop any rationally sustainable, universally applicable moral framework, because without an objective good moral justifications collapse into whatever people "feel". Without an objective, rational arbiter of moral statements, one has nothing to police their "feelings" by. The same rational framework is necessary to to arbit any supposed edicts of what is moral and provides grounds for challenging any social or religious or consensus claim or tradition about morality. If all we go by is "feelings", or what consensus says, or what religious institutions say, or tradition, then anything can be, and has been, morally justified. The only model that has grounds to police moral claims regardless of who makes them is if we assume morals describe an objective good and are subject to rational discernment.
Is it more moral to do the right thing because it makes you feel better when someone else is happy, or to do it because you fear that if you don’t you will be punished?
Since both pursuit of feeling good and escape from feeling bad are selfish concerns, I'd say that neither motivation contributes any "extra" goodness to the act of doing the right thing. We must do the right thing whether it makes us feel good or not.William J Murray
September 7, 2011
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MarkF is justified in his definition.
Only in the sense that anyone who offers whatever definition they feel applies is "justified" in whatever way itseems to them "justified" means. Me, I go by definitions found in dictionaries. But I don't expect subjectivists to - god forbid - acquiesce to an objective standard.
Robert Hare, a highly influential contributor to the construct, describes it as being “without conscience”, and “lack of empathy” is one of the core characteristics.
Why should I accept what Robert Hare has to say, other than that you feel he is a "highly influential contributor to the construct", whatever on god's green earth that's supposed to mean?
Empathy, of course, is, in fact precisely about “feeling” – the ability to feel what another person is feeling, and by so doing so, to wish to avoid causing other people pain.
Funny, I don't see the words "empathy", "conscience", or "psychopath" in the definition of "amoral" at dictionary.com or at merriam-webster online. However, this is understandable since you are conflating a system of rules (which is what morality is) for a set of feelings.
I’m sure you were not, and are not, like that, and it is MarkF’s point that you are not – and that therefore, unlike psychopaths, you were not, in fact “amoral”.
I challenge you to find a standard definition of "amoral" that even comes close to anything you and markf have said.
But I strongly disagree with your notion that theism is a necessary grounding for ethics and morality.
So?
I think it’s interesting that so many people here (or at least a few) came to theism from atheism. I think it’s important to recognise that for most atheists it is the other way round – they came to atheism from theism.
Why is that important to recognise?
So to project on to most atheists what one came to reject is not necessarily sound, just as it is not sound for atheists to project on to most theists what they themselves came to reject.
Who here has done that?William J Murray
September 7, 2011
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And, Chris, equally, it has been “pointed out” to you that it is simply not the case that “the best policy for any atheist is to free-ride on society”, and that, on the contrary, simply replacing human vigilance with an all-seeing God does nothing for morality per se, though it might (although there’s not a lot of evidence to support it) do something for compliance with an ethical code. There are plenty of incentives for atheists to act morally, not least being social disapproval and punishment, but for more importantly being the fact that behaving well to our fellow creatures tends to make us happier (I can even cite you studies if you like). Your “fact” has been “refuted”, with examples, many times, as far as I can see. Clearly you disagree, but you might at least do your interlocutors the honour of granting that they might actually disagree with you, rather than that they simply refuse to “see the truth” because of “some personal emotional reason not susceptible to things like evidence, reason, and logic”. You have been provided with plenty of all three! As Scott Andrews has argued, very eloquently: both atheists and theists are capable of behaving badly, and, indeed, of justifying their behaviour in terms of their stance vis a vis god or gods. Equally, both atheists and theist are capable of behaving magnanimously, generously, and even self-sacrificially. How are we to explain this if theism is the only foundation for ethical principles and moral behaviour? It seems to me quite easy to explain: that we are an extraordinary species capable of making long terms decisions that place weight on both our own long-term welfare and those of others. This means that we are capable of what we call “moral” decisions – of decisions that can either tend to place higher value our own welfare than that of others, or those that tend to value the welfare of others as equal, or even greater, our own. Not only that, but we are capable of elevating those capacities into an abstract system of values that we call ethics, and of constructing systems of rules and laws that govern the conduct of all members of our communities, on pain of rejection by the community, in order to ensure that everyone benefits, rather than a few “free-loaders”; not only that, but we are capable of enshringing those rules and laws as part of our child-rearing culture, so that our children have a chance of learning the wonderful lesson that it really is, on the whole, more fun to give than to receive, and more rewarding to do a job that gives others pleasure, or relieves distress, than it is to do a job that exploits others and leaves us with the transient pleasures that leisure and money can provide. Obviously it often doesn’t work that way, but that’s no fault of atheism, nor even due to lack of theism, but, I’d argue, a symptom of our inexperience as a population. We are learning, I think, and hope.Elizabeth Liddle
September 7, 2011
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It is not necessary to think that someone else (some higher being) has a purpose for us to think that our lives have meaning. Indeed I’d argue that the reverse is potentially true – that the idea that we are pawns in some grand plan beyond our understanding is potentially more dispiriting than the sense that we can be masters of our own destiny, set our own goals, and fulfil our own visions of our role in the world. Of course, "our own visions" are "visions that were thrust upon us by the machinations of a pointless universe", "set our own goals" means "have no choice to do other than what we are determined to do by those same machinations", "masters of our own destiny" means "tell ourselves that those machinations are ours somehow", etc. Sounds great, until you examine it. "I am the master of my own universe!" cried the machine, as dictated in his programming, helpfully provided by no one at all. I think that nihilism (as I think I said earlier) is a real problem, but it is not a necessary corollary of atheism, and is not necessarily solved by theism. Of course, the wiki definition given for nihilism is: "Most commonly, nihilism is presented in the form of existential nihilism which argues that life is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value." In other words, it's not at all clear that saying 'well, subjective meaning!' is at all a response to nihilism. By the above, it seems downright compatible with it. Ah wait, let me guess. 'Well I use a completely different definition of nihilism' or 'Well maybe nihilism isn't so bad after all!' Further down: "Moral nihilism, also known as ethical nihilism, is the meta-ethical view that morality does not exist as something inherent to objective reality; therefore no action is necessarily preferable to any other. For example, a moral nihilist would say that killing someone, for whatever reason, is not inherently right or wrong. Other nihilists may argue not that there is no morality at all, but that if it does exist, it is a human and thus artificial construction, wherein any and all meaning is relative for different possible outcomes. As an example, if someone kills someone else, such a nihilist might argue that killing is not inherently a bad thing, bad independently from our moral beliefs, only that because of the way morality is constructed as some rudimentary dichotomy, what is said to be a bad thing is given a higher negative weighting than what is called good: as a result, killing the individual was bad because it did not let the individual live, which was arbitrarily given a positive weighting. In this way a moral nihilist believes that all moral claims are false."nullasalus
September 7, 2011
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I would agree, Chris, that a sense of meaninglessness is a powerful reinforcer of antisocial behaviour. I would just disagree that atheism makes life meaningless. I think the problem here is that when you talk of life being "meaningless" you are thinking "I wasn't put here for any reason", whereas when I think of it, I think of "there is no point in living". Those are not the same thing of course! I guess my position is that we make our own meanings - it's what we are so well equipped to do, by virtue of symbol-making-brains that give us our ability to make long term decisions, and devise long term goals, as well as our capacity to feel empathy - to see and feel things from a point of view that is different from our own. It is not necessary to think that someone else (some higher being) has a purpose for us to think that our lives have meaning. Indeed I'd argue that the reverse is potentially true - that the idea that we are pawns in some grand plan beyond our understanding is potentially more dispiriting than the sense that we can be masters of our own destiny, set our own goals, and fulfil our own visions of our role in the world. I think that nihilism (as I think I said earlier) is a real problem, but it is not a necessary corollary of atheism, and is not necessarily solved by theism. There are some very fatalistic religions out there.Elizabeth Liddle
September 7, 2011
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Well, at least some people (I thought it included you) denied that logical principle could lead from atheism acts “that others call good”. I assume you mean 'some people denied that atheists could in principle engage in an any act that others call good'. Great - who denied it? Where? Who are these "some people" in this thread, and where did they do it? I’m glad to hear you disavow this position. But what is “mechanically” doing in there? What is “mechanical” about it? It's a loose bit of language by me meant to illustrate that what you're asserting is uninteresting and amounts to irrelevance in this exchange. If a person is condemning pedophilia, noting that it's logically possible for pedophiles to give to charity gets the conversation nowhere. The trouble I’m having with this conversation is that you won’t actually say how you figure out a) what is right (ethics) or b) why one should do it (morality) from theism. And the trouble I'm having is that, again and again, you keep trying to dodge the implications of atheism and materialism by strange fiat ('My conscience says..' But who cares what your conscience says? 'More would benefit..' But who cares about who benefits, other than the direct individual benefiting? And what's the metric for benefit anyway? Yet more 'group criteria'? 'An atheist can do an act other people call good...' But who denied this? What does it have to do with anything?), and responding to replies with what amounts to 'I don't understand. Therefore I'm not persuaded, therefore it's not a good argument.' And then getting boggled when people are tired of the conversation and decline to repeat themselves again. I'd gladly go into my views on viable theistic and non-materialist foundations for morality - whether it's classical theism, personalistic theism, platonic good, or otherwise. But when it's clear that it'd be a waste of time, I won't bother. And what I'm seeing with your interaction with kf and William is that yeah, it's a waste of time, because you have other problems you need to sort out first. You either can't see or can't cop to the problems in a moral system you adhere to and claim to be familiar with. That rather stunts the conversation possibilities from the get-go.nullasalus
September 7, 2011
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That difference makes all the difference, Mark. And, in the real world (beyond the insulated bubble of a pleasant town or village in the South of England) many people are more selfish and more nasty than you will ever be aware of. Atheism is not always the cause of this but, with all its meaninglessness and inevitable oblivion, it certainly reinforces this behaviour.Chris Doyle
September 7, 2011
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My point is that it is not necessary to believe in god or gods to be inspired to great goodness, nor, for that matter, is it sufficient.
Who here disputed that atheists can, either in mere logical principle or due to historical fact, mechanically ‘do this or that act’ that others call ‘good’? That’s been a strawman and a distraction from the beginning.
Well, at least some people (I thought it included you) denied that logical principle could lead from atheism acts "that others call good". I'm glad to hear you disavow this position. But what is "mechanically" doing in there? What is "mechanical" about it? The trouble I'm having with this conversation is that you won't actually say how you figure out a) what is right (ethics) or b) why one should do it (morality) from theism. An example would be helpful.Elizabeth Liddle
September 7, 2011
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BTW, very well said WJM.kairosfocus
September 7, 2011
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Spot on Nullasalus! This has all been pointed out to Elizabeth, here and elsewhere, by people like you and me, repeatedly, for months . She will not see the truth of her chosen worldview because, for some personal emotional reason not susceptible to things like evidence, reason or logic, she does not want to. She joins the ranks of almost all atheists in this respect. The best policy for any atheist is to free-ride on society: maintaining the appearance of moral goodness while, when the opportunity presents itself and detection can be avoided, acting immorally whenever it suits and serves. If any atheist attempts to respond to this, notice that they will be unable to refute this fact. They probably won't even try. They'll probably bring up religion instead. And what a waste of time that will be.Chris Doyle
September 7, 2011
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MarkF is justified in his definition. Robert Hare, a highly influential contributor to the construct, describes it as being "without conscience", and "lack of empathy" is one of the core characteristics. Empathy, of course, is, in fact precisely about "feeling" - the ability to feel what another person is feeling, and by so doing so, to wish to avoid causing other people pain. Of course the psychopaths that land in prison often have antisocial personality disorders as well, and "deviant lifestyles" but, at least in Hare's conception, the "successful" psychopaths do not, and are often remarkably successful, being able to ignore the rights and feelings of others in order to achieve their own ends. I'm sure you were not, and are not, like that, and it is MarkF's point that you are not - and that therefore, unlike psychopaths, you were not, in fact "amoral". I suggest that instead, you found yourself unable to systematise a moral or ethical code in the absence of a ruling principle, which you found in theism. That's fine. But I strongly disagree with your notion that theism is a necessary grounding for ethics and morality. I think it's interesting that so many people here (or at least a few) came to theism from atheism. I think it's important to recognise that for most atheists it is the other way round - they came to atheism from theism. So to project on to most atheists what one came to reject is not necessarily sound, just as it is not sound for atheists to project on to most theists what they themselves came to reject.Elizabeth Liddle
September 7, 2011
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Elizabeth, you’ve replaced one “I feel” assertion with another one. Why should I care if everyone is better off in the long term, other than that you feel we should strive for that goal?
It's your word, not mine. But let me accept it for now.
Harming others is acceptable in my moral system. It isn’t “harming others” that makes an act moral or immoral, it is the intention which causes the harm that makes the act moral or immoral.
OK, sure. Sometimes we do harm unavoidably. I'm happy to stipulate that we don't call someone immoral if they couldn't have done otherwise.
I’ve reiterated my process towards establishing moral principles several times. So has Kairosfocus, albeit in a much more extensive and detailed manner. You are apparently immune to understanding it, so there is no reason to reiterate it once again.
But both of you have completely ignored my counter-points, merely insisting that you have already "pointed out" where I am wrong. I see nowhere where anyone has resolved, or even attempted to resolve Euthyphro's dilemma. A couple of people have claimed that the specific miracles of Christianity are evidence that the Christian God is the True God and that therefore the precepts of the Christian bible are true moral laws, in other words have opted for the "X is good because it is God's law" horn, which I find a) unpersuasive and b) even if persuasive, not very moral. I'd go for my conscience over a biblical text any day. On the other hand, you and kairosfocus seem to want to have both horns without resolving the dilemma. At least I see no resolution in any of the links kf has given, nor in your own posts. And the question is very simple: How do you know that God is good if you don't know first what good is? And if you already know what good is, why do you need to believe in God to figure it out? That's the ethical version. Here's the moral version: Is it more moral to do the right thing because it makes you feel better when someone else is happy, or to do it because you fear that if you don't you will be punished? If you have answers to these questions, I would like to read them, or at least to be given a direct link to somewhere where they are very specifically addressed. Thanks.Elizabeth Liddle
September 7, 2011
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Alcibiades, in one word.kairosfocus
September 7, 2011
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MarkF said:
If this were true this would make you a psychopath, rather a terrifying person,
Untrue. Being amoral doesn't mean one has a socially unacceptable psychological compulsions. It doesn't even mean .. oh, but why bother. For you, "amoral" means whatever you feel it means, right? Why bother with pesky things like definitions from dictionaries and such, when it just "seems" to you to mean "psychopathic".William J Murray
September 7, 2011
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Not sure what your point is, nullasalus. Sure you aren't, Elizabeth. You are not, presumably, claiming that people are incapable of being inspired to acts of great evil and great personal benefit in part due to believing in god or gods? What makes the acts 'evil' or 'good' again? Did the criteria of their community - even if it was a community of one - declare it to be evil or good? My point is that it is not necessary to believe in god or gods to be inspired to great goodness, nor, for that matter, is it sufficient. Who here disputed that atheists can, either in mere logical principle or due to historical fact, mechanically 'do this or that act' that others call 'good'? That's been a strawman and a distraction from the beginning. The focus has been on what is 'good' and 'evil' when we grant materialism and atheism. Not 'if a single atheist drops money into a donation basket for charity, the theists are making an incorrect claim'. I think my counter-example speaks for itself. Not in a way you'll get or admit to getting.nullasalus
September 7, 2011
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I don't find arguments of the form "this has been pointed out to you repeatedly" very persuasive. If I thought it had been explained to my satisfaction, I wouldn't be asking. And I was asking you, specifically, as it was your point. And my point boils down to asking for a resolution of the Euthyphro dilemma. In this thread, atheism has been taken to task for not providing an "objective" basis for morality. But when I ask what is "objective" about theistic morality, all I'm hearing is that God is objectively good. But when I ask how we are supposed to know what that good actually is, all I get are riddles. That's why I'm asking for specifics. How does believing in a good God (or, if you like, that there is an objective moral good) help you to know what a good action is? In practical terms? And how does it encourage you to achieve it?Elizabeth Liddle
September 7, 2011
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Elizabeth begs another question:
It’s based on the principle that if everyone helps everyone else and avoids harming other people, everyone is better off in the long term.
Elizabeth, you've replaced one "I feel" assertion with another one. Why should I care if everyone is better off in the long term, other than that you feel we should strive for that goal?
Now, can you tell me what your “Do not harm others” is based on?
Harming others is acceptable in my moral system. It isn't "harming others" that makes an act moral or immoral, it is the intention which causes the harm that makes the act moral or immoral. I've reiterated my process towards establishing moral principles several times. So has Kairosfocus, albeit in a much more extensive and detailed manner. You are apparently immune to understanding it, so there is no reason to reiterate it once again.William J Murray
September 7, 2011
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Not sure what your point is, nullasalus. You are not, presumably, claiming that people are incapable of being inspired to acts of great evil and great personal benefit in part due to believing in god or gods? My point is that it is not necessary to believe in god or gods to be inspired to great goodness, nor, for that matter, is it sufficient. Do you disagree?Elizabeth Liddle
September 7, 2011
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Chris, atheists have a perfectly good rational bases to be immoral. Even if put it all down to "self-interest", they have: Avoiding punishment Avoiding disapprobation Wanting to be liked Wanting to be approved of Enjoying being appreciated Enjoying seeing others unhappy (or happy) Enjoying the sense of having stuck it to people they dislike, or having helped out someone they like Enjoying the sense that after they die, they will be remembered with fear and respect, or - due to deception - remembered fondly Enjoying the sense that after they die, even after they have been forgotten, they will have left their mark. And as you will see from that list, the further down you go, the more the person's 'self'-interest becomes detached from their still existing. Why this happens may be through a fallen nature or it may simply be how we evolved. It may be that those two things are not essentially different. But the fact remains, and it is demonstrably fact, that people are inspired to acts of great evil and great personal benefit in part due to believing in atheism and materialism, and they found their behavior on ethical principles derived without reference to god or gods.nullasalus
September 7, 2011
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It's based on the principle that if everyone helps everyone else and avoids harming other people, everyone is better off in the long term. You can even derive it from game theory. Or you can simply take the zen fable of the noodle soup and the chopsticks in heaven and hell: In hell there is a vast vat of tantalizing noodles that nobody can eat because the chopsticks are six feet long and must only be held at the ends. In heaven the situation is exactly the same, but nobody starves because each person feeds another. Now, can you tell me what your "Do not harm others" is based on?Elizabeth Liddle
September 7, 2011
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Well, that’s very interesting, but I think you make a great mistake when you assume that the position you held as an atheist is the position held by most atheists,
Where did I say I assume that?
I’d be grateful if you’d explain, step by step, the reasoning that led you to that position, and what the theistic reasoning was that led you elsewhere.
Such has been provided to you repeatedly in this forum. I seen no reason to reiterate it now.
Specifically, I’d like you to explain this:
Should I also explain electromagnetic theory to my toaster? Oh well, you never know when a libertarian free will is reading :) You look at theistic existence, logic and good as if some capricious god decided what "existence" would mean, or what would be good, or what would be "logical" like a customer choosing a meal from a menu. "Oh, I think that in this universe, murdering innocent people will be wrong, and helping little old ladies to cross the street will be good. Maybe in the next universe I'll do the opposite." If god capriciously chooses what is good and what is bad, it is nothing more than might makes right. If god capriciously chooses "punishments" for right and wrong, it is once again a case of might makes right, because god could as easily elect there to be no punishment for wrong behavior, thus trivializing whatever "good" means. Good is either a fundamental aspect of what god is, or it is irrelevant to discuss morality. God cannot change what "good" is, nor can god arbitrarily decide what ultimate consequences will ensue from moral or immoral behavior, any more than gravity can arbitrarily decide what the consequences will be for stepping off a cliff; the effects of gravity, good or bad, reflect what gravity is, not what gravity capriciously decides. If gravity was sapient and had a voice, it might say "Hey, walking off that cliff isn't a good idea," but it cannot decide to "not be gravity" if you decide to step off a cliff. Such things as what existence is like, what logic is, what good is, are necessarily written into the system for anything created by god, because those things reflect what god is, not what god arbitrarily decides.William J Murray
September 7, 2011
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Chris, atheists have a prefectly good rational basis to be moral. I'm not quite sure why you keep asserting that they have not. Even if put it all down to "self-interest", they have: Avoiding punishment Avoiding disapprobation Wanting to be liked Wanting to be approved of Enjoying being appreciated Enjoying seeing others happy Enjoying the sense of having made a beneficial difference to someone else's life Enjoying the sense that after they die, they will be remembered fondly. Enjoying the sense that after they die, even after they have been forgotten, someone, somewhere, may benefit, or once benefited, from their actions. And, as you will see from that list, the further down you go, the more the person's "self"-interest actually becomes aligned with other people's. Why this happens may be through divine grace or it may simply be how we evolved. It may be that those two things are not essentially different. But the fact remains, and it is demonstrably a fact, that people are inspired to acts of great goodness and great personal sacrifice despite having no belief in a interventionist god or a Final Judgement, and they found their behaviour on ethical principles derived without reference to a god or gods.Elizabeth Liddle
September 7, 2011
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Well, kf, on atheism and materialism, what's wrong with incoherence if it gets you what you want? It could be fun - the characters in Alice in Wonderland seemed to get on well enough. ;)nullasalus
September 7, 2011
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Onlookers: The above is a capital example of a point Schaeffer makes in his The God who is There, where many who hold to the sort of naturalistic, disjoint worldviews that we have been addressing, will stop somewhere in the middle between their foundational premises and their patent logical entailment, building a shelter to protect them from the logic that would expose the absurdities they cannot live with. We need to knock off the roof, so the force of the logic has to be faced. It is plain above that the implications of evolutionary materialism for morals are absurd, but by borrowing without acknowledgement principles from that which DOES have a foundation for morals, the cultured materialist wants to have his cake and eat it: keeping those principles it is convenient to uphold (as it saves them from being preyed on) but dismissing those that are not, such as say to regulate one's sexual desires and behaviour in accord with chastity, fidelity and the creation order. The bankruptcy of such a pattern of thought and behaviour through blatant incoherence should be plain to all. A bankruptcy that points straight to the reduction to absurdity of the underlying evolutionary materialism. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
September 7, 2011
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William First from 17.1.2 above you write:
That I am not now selfish, and that I now care for others and lead a moral life, is directly due to the result of theistic reasoning that largely began with my first exposure to ID; before that I was entirely amoral.
If this were true this would make you a psychopath, rather a terrifying person, and unlike any atheist I know. It would mean that if someone convinced you that God actually mean't you to go on a killing spree then you would do it. However, I am sure that is not true. When you were an atheist did you really not feel any compassion of any sort for any suffering creature? If the answer is no I suggest you seek medical as well as theological help.
hese two don’t offer logical arguments (markf has so much as admitted so);
I think the position we got to was we agreed that we had different ideas of what a rational argument is. I offered some examples of my rational arguments. You declined to offer my any of yours.
markf
September 7, 2011
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