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Rabbi pleads with Darwinian atheists: Turn back from legal pedophilia. But they can’t.

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Moshe Averick
Jewish? I'll pester you until you take your heritage seriously ...

The Maverick Rabbi, author of The Confused, Illusory World of the Atheist speaks up on the unmentionable subject in “A Plea to Atheists: Pedophilia Is Next On the Slippery Slope; Let Us Turn Back Before It Is Too Late” (Algemeiner, August 29, 2011) Moshe Averick points out that materialist atheism is intrinsically amoral. One results is capsuled by the journey of a philosophy professor:

Joel Marks, Professor Emeritus of Philosophy at the U. of New Haven, who for 10 years authored the “Moral Moments” column in Philosophy Now, made the following, rather shocking about-face in a 2010 article entitled, “An Amoral Manifesto.”

“This philosopher has been laboring under an unexamined assumption, namely that there is such a thing as right and wrong. I now believe there isn’t…The long and short of it is that I became convinced that atheism implies amorality; and since I am an atheist, I must therefore embrace amorality…I experienced my shocking epiphany that religious fundamentalists are correct; without God there is no morality. But they are incorrect, I still believe, about there being a God. Hence, I believe, there is no morality.

Marks then quite boldly and candidly addresses the implications of his newfound beliefs:

“Even though words like “sinful” and “evil” come naturally to the tongue as say a description of child molesting. They do not describe any actual properties of anything. There are no literal sins in the world because there is no literal God…nothing is literally right or wrong because there is no Morality…yet we human beings can still discover plenty of completely naturally explainable resources for motivating certain preferences. Thus enough of us are sufficiently averse to the molestation of children and would likely continue to be…

At this point the utter intellectual (and moral) bankruptcy of Marks’ position becomes apparent. After correctly concluding that a world without God is free from the shackles of the illusory concepts of morality and immorality, he pathetically attempts to have his cake and eat it too by suggesting that there is something “good” or “better” about the preference to being averse to child molestation.

Well, Darwin – the materialist atheist’s only true deity – could explain the preference of some for molesting girls because it sexualizes a girl early, resulting in more selfish genes being spread later. Of course, he can’t offer quite the same explanation for molesting boys. Oh wait, Darwinian theory accounts for homosexuality because gays can help siblings raise children, thus spreading some of their selfish genes more successfully. Thus molesting boys gets them into the habit of helping others spread their selfish genes.

What about those uptight folk who oppose the practice? Darwin can explain that too, as it happens: They evolved in such a way as to conserve their selfish genes until there is a high chance of success.

It all lays waste to any argument for protecting children.

In this context, “atheists” means “materialist atheists,” of course. The Dalai Lama (as other Buddhists) is technically an atheist, but the heart of Buddhism is the idea that the cosmos is – among other things – profoundly moral. Thus karma forbids any escape from the consequences of one’s actions. That kind of atheism is unlikely to catch on seriously in today’s West.

The Darwinian atheist, by contrast, thinks that morality is an illusion, as Michael Ruse puts it – maybe useful, maybe not. But the atheist decides which it is, depending on the preferences dictated by his selfish genes. That’s just so much more attractive.

How will it end? In “Our atheist commenters have kindly explained why atheism is doomed”, we see how atheists will destroy atheism: From time immemorial, people who flirt with “no actual morality” are easy prey for people dedicated to an evil morality.

See also: “Rabbi: Dawkins claimed that a debate he lost had never occurred – until it was posted online”, featuring yet another rabbi who doesn’t play rollover for Darwinists.

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Comments
You've done a great job Scott :) Let me do the converse: There's a kind of nihilistic form of atheism that I do think is problematic. I also think it is a result of mistaken reasoning. What Dennett calls the fallacy of creeping exculpability. And I agree with him that it is, indeed, a fallacy.Elizabeth Liddle
September 7, 2011
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All true. I would argue that it's a little easier to call science an "it" while theism is more of a "them." But whatever my odd exercise was in playing devil's advocate, it seems to have run its course. The trouble with religion is that it goes to the opposite extreme - no one throws out the dirty bathwater. If anything they try to characterize it as particles of dirt in otherwise clean water.ScottAndrews
September 7, 2011
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SA: Kindly notice, I am not speaking of religions, or states, or faculties or any other human institution, or any merely human leader. All of these can be flawed, and not one of them is the inherently good, Creator God who is the ground of our cosmos and our lives. I am noticing just how hard it is to see what is being said, and what is NOT being said. That is a measure of how deeply poisoned the atmosphere is. (And, I am always a bit less than amused when words are pushed into my mouth that do not belong there. I have said and linked more than enough that what is being said and what is a strawman caricature can be distinguished.) Humans, are finite, fallible, morally fallen/ struggling and too often ill-willed. None of us is strong enough to bear the weight of being an IS who can ground OUGHT. And, when we stumble, we stumble before an intuitively known moral law. That law points to a Lawgiver. And, as moral strugglers, sorry, I get wary when I hear ANYone putting himself forth as a paragon of virtue or goodness. Fellow-struggler, yes, and here are some ideas and practices that help, and here are some ideas and practices that do not help. NONE of us is truly "good" and "decent," beyond, I persist, however stumblingly, in the path of the good. (That, BTW, is why I do not really buy the new stock rhetorical character, the nice, decent, wonderfully moral atheist; so much better than those hypocritical fundies who dare to challenge his worldview foundations for what he thinks is good. If that sounds suspiciously like Nietzsche's superman, it should; and that should give us serious pause. I am not hearing about the struggle to move to virtue, and it simply does not ring true. [I have also been on the receiving end of some such over the years, and I know whereof I speak.]) When it comes to the now so often caricatured and derided Christian tradition, the core moral premise is aptly summarised in Paul's form of the Golden Rule:
Rom 13:8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,”[a] and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[b] 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. [NIV 84]
Anyone who does wrong, does so in defiance of this law, a law which is not just written with ink on parchment or papyrus or chiseled on stone then transmitted to us by printing eventually, but which is written on our hearts. We KNOW it, whether we hold any particular worldview or other. (And that, BTW, is specifically written in the Christian scriptures, in the very same book of Romans, Ch 2:6 - 15. In short, this is yet another irresponsible rhetorical strawman caricature foisted on the public.) Now, where evolutionary materialism is a particularly pernicious error is that it is inherently amoral, it has in it no IS that can ground OUGHT. So, it naturally tends to benumb the conscience, and it relativises such principles, so that we are all the more vulnerable to short circuit it where we most need to heed it. For example, in the United States, in the years since Roe vs Wade, some 50 million unborn babies have died in abortion mills, and this is celebrated as "choice." That is about a 9/11 a day. And, the ghosts of 100 million victims of such regimes across the past 100 years, speak out on the same point. Please, do not let the moral equivalency tactic mislead you. We are dealing here with a known dangerous worldview that undermines morality. That, we must never forget, as Plato warned 2350 years ago. Let's hear him on this, again (as an independent witness, so to speak):
[[The avant garde philosophers, teachers and artists c. 400 BC] say that fire and water, and earth and air [[i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art, and that as to the bodies which come next in order-earth, and sun, and moon, and stars-they have been created by means of these absolutely inanimate existences. The elements are severally moved by chance and some inherent force according to certain affinities among them-of hot with cold, or of dry with moist, or of soft with hard, and according to all the other accidental admixtures of opposites which have been formed by necessity. After this fashion and in this manner the whole heaven has been created, and all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only . . . . [[T]hese people would say that the Gods exist not by nature, but by art, and by the laws of states, which are different in different places, according to the agreement of those who make them; and that the honourable is one thing by nature and another thing by law, and that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.- [[Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT. (Cf. here for Locke's views and sources on a very different base for grounding liberty as opposed to license and resulting anarchistic "every man does what is right in his own eyes" chaos leading to tyranny.)] These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might [[ Evolutionary materialism leads to the promotion of amorality], and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [[Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality "naturally" leads to continual contentions and power struggles; cf. dramatisation here], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is, to live in real dominion over others [[such amoral factions, if they gain power, "naturally" tend towards ruthless tyranny; here, too, Plato hints at the career of Alcibiades], and not in legal subjection to them . . .
The problem, and its worldviews roots, should be clear enough. Unfortunately, there are all too many historical cases in point, especially over the past 100 years. And no, I refuse to change teh subject, especially when we see yet anotehr outrage being pushed on us to be transformed by rhetoric and misrepresentaiton into a perceived right. I have children, and I hope one day to have grandchildren. I have absolutely no intention of having to worry that their teachers in schools, or the scout-master, or the pediatricians they see, may be predators hiding behind yet another manufactured, pretended right to the wrong; made persuasive courtesy the dominance of amoral evolutionary materialism that undercuts moral reasoning in the public square. That has already happened too many times in recent years, and the wound is already mortal. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
September 7, 2011
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Sorry, forget to cancel a bold tag.Elizabeth Liddle
September 7, 2011
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Wiiliam wrote:
It is only by theism that such an act can be rationally considered immoral; under atheism, it’s just another event that occurred like any other.
And I dispute this.
I never claimed theism necessarily makes people moral; it just provides them the necessary grounding from which a rational morality can be built.
It may well provide them with a necessary grounding but it is not the only necessary grounding. Many atheistic groundings are possible, buddhism being one.
Only a theism-based morality can condemn any act as immoral, even those that are claimed to be moral acts based on theism. Atheism cannot condemn any act as immoral.
Anthropomorphhic metaphors sometimes hide flaws in arguments, and I think yours does here. Who is this "atheism" that "cannot condemn any act as immoral"? There is, of course, no such thing. Substitute "Atheists" for "atheism" and the statement immediately becomes demonstrably untrue - many atheists can, and do, condemn many acts as immoral. What you presumably mean is that you cannot envisage a system of ethics that is not founded in theism. Well, I can, and do, and over the millenia there have been many. I suspect that one reason this conversation is foundering is that none of us are being as clear as we should be about "morality" versus "ethics". If we define ethics as systems of rules that state what is right and what is wrong and morality is the reasoning or drive to keep to those rules, then both are perfectly derivable without reference to a God. Or, if not, then I'm not seeing a persuasive argument why not.
Elizabeth Liddle
September 7, 2011
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Chris - because of fear of punishment or because I want to impress other human beings, prove your worth, show your dedication and loyalty, etc. i.e. exactly the same reasons as you would want to follow a theist morality - the only difference is you believe in power with the ultimate CCTV and the ultimate punishment. But this is not really relevant because 1) there are very, very few people who are utterly selfish without any regard for others. 2) it may turn out that belief in some religions causes some psychopaths to behave better but this doesn't prove that those religions provide the truth about moralitymarkf
September 7, 2011
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William, I’d like a specific instance of where I have grounded my argument in the way that something “seems” or “feels” to me, because I do not recognise my position from your description.
What is your moral standard "Do not harm others" based on, if not that you feel or it seems to you that harming others is wrong?William J Murray
September 7, 2011
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Scott -
if I’m an atheist, the belief system that provides a rational basis for morality is narrowed down to any except mine
There is a persistent fallacy here which is: An atheist cannot have a set of moral rules set by a God or Gods therefore they can only have their own private set of rules. It just doesn't follow. For example, an atheist may believe that morality is based on the golden rule or Kant's categorical imperative or one of the many flavours of utilitarianism. As it happens I think morality is at its core based on common human compassion - but all these are positions on morality which both atheists and believers have decided is the right set of rules to follow. This has as much justification as following the set of rules set by the particular God you believe in. They all succeed in setting an objective basis for morality - but you have to make a subjective decision as to which set of rules you go for - as you a theist makes a subjective decision to adopt the rules set by the particular God he/she believes in.markf
September 7, 2011
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Well, that's very interesting, but I think you make a great mistake when you assume that the position you held as an atheist is the position held by most atheists, although of course I am glad that you came to the conclusion that your amorality was untenable, as I think it is. I'd be grateful if you'd explain, step by step, the reasoning that led you to that position, and what the theistic reasoning was that led you elsewhere. Specifically, I'd like you to explain this:
God doesn’t tell me to do anything; God leaves it up to me to do what I wish. What is moral is moral not because God says so, but because it is the nature of existence that God can no more change than God can manufacture a 4-sided triangle.
which makes no sense to me. Nor does the analogy with gravity.Elizabeth Liddle
September 7, 2011
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Well, I didn't do so here, but I was an atheist - so was Mr. Dodgen, I believe - and I did see that my position was unsupportable, largely due to arguments I examined on ID sites like this. So, I have reason to believe it is possible to change minds - even those hardened against the idea of God. The ultra-modernistic will-to-power mindset is very alluring; you don't have to submit to any logical discipline whatsover; nothing takes precedence over one's own "authentic" feelings.William J Murray
September 7, 2011
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William, I'd like a specific instance of where I have grounded my argument in the way that something "seems" or "feels" to me, because I do not recognise my position from your description.Elizabeth Liddle
September 7, 2011
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Chris, this seems very bitter. And I find your assertion simply untrue in my experience. Most atheists of my acquaintance are extremely "interested in the truth" and many became atheists because they became reluctantly convinced that the truth lay outside religion. Most, in other words, have been more than willing to "admit to the weaknesses of their position" when that position was theism. So to assert that it's something intrinsic to the atheist personality (if there is such a thing) is demonstrably false. What they do is disagree with you. They don't "admit to the weaknesses in their position" for the simple reason that they honestly believe that the weaknesses lie in yours (and other theists'). Now, we can argue about which actually is the weakest position (and clearly I think my own is stronger, or I wouldn't hold it!), but no conversation about the issue is going to get anywhere unless both sides are prepared to accept that the other is a genuinely held position.Elizabeth Liddle
September 7, 2011
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Atheism could be true, but that would necessarily mean that there is no objective grounds for any morality (and it would mean a lot of other bad things too, but I'll stick with morality here). While I understand the religious problems that lead to anti-theism (I've been there), it is really no different than looking over the history of science and coming away with a disgusted anti-science attitude (which many do, BTW). Because there have been contradictory scientific beliefs, acrimonious and hateful events, blackballed theorists, false claims and views that endured for decades (or longer); because science has been used to kill countless people, harm the envionment, harm people; because science is used by bad peole to defraud or manipulate others ... does that mean science itself is bad? Or, is scientific investigation a necessary perspective regardless of how often it is abused and misused by corrupt people? The institution of science, and the institution of theism (religions) are inescapably corrupt to varying degrees, because humans are largely corrupt and so corrupt any institution they administer. Regardless of how corrupt and fraudulent and absurd the institution of science is, scientific method and principles are still valid, and still necessary; regardless of how corrupt and fraudulent and absurd the institution of theism (religion) is, the principles and methods of theism are still valid and necessary. Only the non-discerning throw out the baby with the dirty bathwater. You can't blame science for the BS done or claimed in its name; you can't blame theism for the BS done or claimed in its name.William J Murray
September 7, 2011
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I see the distinction and it makes sense. Playing atheists' advocate (because that's my job today) that means that if I'm an atheist, the belief system that provides a rational basis for morality is narrowed down to any except mine. The religious folk can all disagree with each other, but they're all right and I'm wrong. (I'm not of the 'all roads lead to the same place' persuasion. If I believe something and also believe that you can believe the opposite and also be correct, then do I believe anything?) I'd be curious to know to what extent that influences atheism. Perhaps some are persuaded by science, but I suspect that for many it's either disgust with the activities of religions or frustration with the illogic of thousands of contradictory "truths."ScottAndrews
September 7, 2011
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And it's a waste of time arguing with people who refuse to admit to the weaknesses in their position, while demonstrably failing to reflect on those weaknesses after they have been repeatedly highlighted and exposed. Without refutation. Most atheists aren't interested in the truth. If they were, they'd acknowledge their losses and substantiate their claims. When was the last time you saw an atheist here do either?Chris Doyle
September 7, 2011
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That’s interesting because every German soldier, upon induction, swore an oath by God to serve Hitler. These men who gunned down helpless men, women, and children were not all atheists. And the overwhelming majority were never excommunicated. To paraphrase, ‘I don’t want to be in any club that would have them for members.’
It is only by theism that such an act can be rationally considered immoral; under atheism, it's just another event that occurred like any other. I never claimed theism necessarily makes people moral; it just provides them the necessary grounding from which a rational morality can be built. Only a theism-based morality can condemn any act as immoral, even those that are claimed to be moral acts based on theism. Atheism cannot condemn any act as immoral.William J Murray
September 7, 2011
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Just an observation: MarkF and Elizabeth Liddle both, in debate after debate, "float in the middle ground", unwilling to pursue their positions either downriver towards necessary conclusions (often simply asserting that such consequences aren't necessary), nor upriver, never offering any grounding, basis or principles which could then be logically examined to see if their "middle ground" is warranted. IOW, they offer "not harming others" on an island, unwilling to rationally pursue those assertions beyond their comfort zones. They frame their posts with a lot of "it seems to me" and "I feel that", as if such exhortations are part of a rational debate, as if they remove the obligation to pursue their reasoning beyond such simple exhortations, never responding to the challenge of why "it seems to me that simply killing you will make me the winner of this debate" would be a non-valid instance of "it seems to me" grounding, or what principle would establish their "it seems to me" as correct and mine as wrong. These two don't offer logical arguments (markf has so much as admitted so); they offer announcements of how things "seem" and "feel" to them. It might be noted to that to ultra-modernists, how things "seem" and "feel" to them is all that is necessary as grounding and warrant for anything they wish to claim; everything else - logic, reason, first principles - is viewed only as bourgeois control mechanisms they are free to dismiss via their innate "will-to-power". You can't argue with people that ground their arguments in what things "seem" and "feel" to be to them, because that is functionally no different from a solipsist worldview.William J Murray
September 7, 2011
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Also, if you’re in the military and they order you to gun down a bunch of Jews herded to the side of the railroad tracks, why not? Morality is just whatever subjective tastes one happens to have acquired, which can be changed.
That's interesting because every German soldier, upon induction, swore an oath by God to serve Hitler. These men who gunned down helpless men, women, and children were not all atheists. And the overwhelming majority were never excommunicated. To paraphrase, 'I don't want to be in any club that would have them for members.'ScottAndrews
September 7, 2011
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Because you are not a selfish person and care about others.
That I am not now selfish, and that I now care for others and lead a moral life, is directly due to the result of theistic reasoning that largely began with my first exposure to ID; before that I was entirely amoral. Let me put it this way: my former book publisher dropped me when I forwarded a manuscript to him titled "The Right to Kill" which advanced the idea that we all have the right to kill anyone for whatever reason we deem fit. Unfortunately, that is where materialist/atheist moral reasoning ultimately leads to - read Ragnar Redbeard's "Might Makes Right" - and I followed that reasoning to the precipice before turning back. It's easy to just hang around in the middle ground and float commentary about "feelings" and "it seems to me"; it's another to actually follow your reasoning forwards and backwards to see what is lurking in the unexamined shadows.
Why should you care what God tells you to do? Is it just fear of future punishment?
God doesn't tell me to do anything; God leaves it up to me to do what I wish. What is moral is moral not because God says so, but because it is the nature of existence that God can no more change than God can manufacture a 4-sided triangle. Of course there are consequences to fulfilling the good or not, but one can hardly call what happens as a consequence of the way existence is a "punishment", any more than gravity "punishes" you for stepping off a cliff.William J Murray
September 7, 2011
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Because life is a test, Mark, as I alluded to yesterday here. There must have been moments in your life when you've wanted to impress other human beings, prove your worth, show your dedication and loyalty, etc. Capture the essence of those drives and that's at least one good reason why believers "care what God tells" us to do. Now then, if atheism is true, what happens if you are a selfish person and you don't care about others? Why bother to be moral then? Why not just free-ride on a moral society?Chris Doyle
September 7, 2011
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Why should I care about causing others pain and suffering in the first place?
Because you are not a selfish person and care about others. Why should you care what God tells you to do? Is it just fear of future punishment?markf
September 7, 2011
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Elizabeth said:
A rock isn’t “objective” or “subjective”. It’s just a rock.
As I have already said, the terms "objective" and "subjective" refer to what we believe about the phenomena in question - its existential status. Do you believe a rock exists independent of your existence? Or do you believe, like solipsists, that the rock is nothing more than a subjective manifestation of your mind? Even though we can only access any phenomena, concepts, physical entity, rock, feeling, etc. through subjective sensations, we either believe that thing to be an objective entity, or a subjective entity. We only access sensory information about a rock through subjective, interpreted sensations; we only access sensory information about "right" and wrong" via the conscience. We then have to decide whether or to believe the rock is an objectively-existent entity; and we have to decide if what we experience through the conscience is an objectively existent entity. Solipsists believe that the rock - and everything else we experience - is all subjective. Moral subjectivists believe that the sensations of the conscience are reporting an entirely subjective experience; moral objectivists believe that the conscience is reporting information to us about an objectively-existent phenomena.
What is objective or subjective, in the sense in which I was interpreting the words, is our knowledge of its existence. If a number of different observers can examine the putative rock, and agree that according to shared criteria, that it is, indeed, what is normally referred to as a “rock”, then we can say that our knowledge that the object is a rock is objective. However, if several people look at the putative rock, and some think it’s a dog dropping, others think it’s a piece of plastic, and others think it’s a sea slug, and no-one is in a position to test it to determine which of those models best fits the data, then the knowledge is pretty subjective. And if someone comes into a clinic and says they have a rock lodged in their head, that no-one else can see, but prevents them thinking, we say that their perception of the rock is entirely subjective, and that “objectively” i.e. verifiably by lots of different people, using shared criteria) there is, in fact, not rock there, and the person is delusional.
You are begging the question. Why should we believe, in the first place, that anyone else exists outside of our mind, much less accept that if they agree and run various tests, we have established anything of any value? If all of that occurs in a dream - people agree with you that X exists, and run tests and conclude that yes, X in fact exists, and then you wake up, did X objectively exist? Or did you just believe that it did? IOW, how do you vet the position that science, empiricism, and others are indications of the objective existence of something else unless you first accept that science, empiricism, and others actually exist outside of your mind? How do you prove that your proving system is objectly existent in the first place? You cannot. There are some things you just have to believe first or else no argument can ensue. You must first elect to believe that some things (others, empiricism, science, regularity and consistency of experience) actually exist outside of your mind, or else your reasoning is in ruins and you have no option but solipsism. Similarly, that god exists and that morality refers to an objective must be true or else your moral reasoning is in ruins. Sure, you can skip the premise and beg the question and remain in intellectual dishonesty by staking out a position between premise and ultimate consequence and refusing to think about either, instead always arguing from the unsupported and unexamined ground in-between - but that is the essence of intellectual dishonesty, even if you don't "feel" like you are being dishonest.
So my point is that if the only way we know that some objective moral standard exists is because we believe it to be the case, then that isn’t “objective” at all – in fact it’s an oxymoron.
The only way we "know" anything to be objectively existent is via fundamental, assumptive beliefs. There's no way around the fact that all knowledge ultimately relies upon faith in necessary axioms, and that everything we know is ultimately only subjectively experienced. You either must assume some things exist independently of yourself, or you must embrace solipsism. If you do not assume some things exist independently of yourself, and also assume there is some valid means of gathering knowledge about those things, then you cannot proceed.
And if the only understanding of what that supposedly objective moral standard is is by subjective methods like the consulting of one’s own conscience, then it doesn’t even matter whether it exists “objectively” or not – in fact, I would argue, that the word “objective” simply wouldn’t mean anything in that context.
Then it doesn't mean anything in any context, because by the same reasoning you've dismissed morality as objective, you've dismissed everything. If "what we generally and consistently sense (as humans), correlated to and arbited by necessary first principles and sound logic" cannot be trusted to discern what is objectively existent from what is subjective, then we are lost and might as well adopt solipsism.
We cannot establish the existence, or otherwise, or God, as we can of a rock, by measuring His/Her properties according to some agreed criteria and determining His/Her presence or absence accordingly.
You've begged the question yet again. Who says, and by what standard, that meausuring a rock = vetting it's objective existence? You keep inserting your vetting standard without providing any basis for accepting it, exactly like you insert "not harming others" as the moral standard without any basis why anyone should adopt that standard in the first place. Without proper grouding or framing, your moral standards are just baseless assertions, and nothing more. Why should anyone adopt your method of having others and science vet what is objectively existent? What principle or foundation grants them that power, if not axiomatic, assumed principles and assumptions that we must necessarily adopt without evidence, since such premises are necessary before we can even describe what "evidence" is, much less what it means? We can establish the existence God the same way we can establish the other necessary first principles; without the existence of God, our arguments fall to ruin. Without assuming we exist, arguments fall to ruin. Without assuming other things exist, arguments fall to ruin. Wihtout asuming we have the capacity to willfully discern true statements from false, arguments fall to ruin. We can establish that God exists the same way we can establish that we exist, and things exist outside of us, and that reason works; not by proof or evidence, but because it must be true.
So in what sense does it mean anything to say that “there is an objective morality”? Especially when you also say: “but we can’t know for sure what it is”?
Once again: morality is a subjective interpretation of an objectively existent good. There are many moral statements that we can know for sure are true: they are self-evidently true moral statements.William J Murray
September 7, 2011
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Well, I see others have happily responded to you thus far. Let's have a look at your responses to them first. A rock isn’t “objective” or “subjective”. It’s just a rock. What is objective or subjective, in the sense in which I was interpreting the words, is our knowledge of its existence. If a number of different observers can examine the putative rock, and agree that according to shared criteria, that it is, indeed, what is normally referred to as a “rock”, then we can say that our knowledge that the object is a rock is objective. However, if several people look at the putative rock, and some think it’s a dog dropping, others think it’s a piece of plastic, and others think it’s a sea slug, and no-one is in a position to test it to determine which of those models best fits the data, then the knowledge is pretty subjective. The "sense in which you are interpreting the words" is then part of your problem. Saying it's "just a rock" begs the question: Is it "just a rock" objectively? Or subjectively? If this universe lacked groups of people coming up with criteria (And how do we judge their criteria? Other criteria? How do we judge that? Wait, this sounds familiar..), were there still rocks? Atoms? Quanta? Energy? I suggest part of your problem is in your apparent belief that things 'objectively' are what they are only by virtue of a group of humans forming a committee and agreeing about such. And of course, there's this: In one sense I entirely agree, which is why I think the argument that Darwinism justifies eugenics is absurd. Darwinist theory is an “is” theory – like all scientific theories, of course, it’s a provisional “is” but it certainly isn’t an “ought”. However, in another sense I disagree – I would argue that we can derive our oughts from what we know, or think, “is”, quite simply: if we know that some action of ours will cause pain and suffering I love it. In one sense you agree, so long as it lets you evade a conclusion you dislike. But in another sense you disagree, so long as it lets you bolster a conclusion you like. In other words, we CAN derive an ought from an is. Here's the system: Ask Liddle, "Hey, do you like this ought I derived?" And if she says, "No! BAAAAAAAAD!" then you cannot, in that case, derive an ought from an is. And if she says, "Yes! GOOOOOOOD!" you can, in that case, derive an ought from an is. What's really fun about this is that it actually brings back the Euthyphro dilemma. Either what is 'moral' is whatever we decide is moral (horn one, and if it's okay for humans, clearly it's okay for God), or morality is determined by something external (Which would mean no appeals to merely human 'criteria' - a Platonic Goodness, a God who Is Goodness, etc. Anathema on materialism.) Again, I suggest that the reasons you're having problems understanding why theism and non-materialism actually opens the doors to providing proper grounding for 'the good' is because you're purposefully confusing yourself. Likewise, you seem to think that so long as you really, really insist that 'treating others nicely' is 'good', that atheism and materialism has no problems with morality. But that's clear bunk. You know it, I know it, everyone here knows it, and the atheist in the OP knows it.nullasalus
September 7, 2011
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That would be fine, kf, if I was convinced by prior evidence for a good God, without first requiring knowledge of goodness. But how am I expected to regard a good God as the IS that tells me what is good without first having a recognition of what constitutes goodness? You say that your argument is "simply not vulnerable to the Euthyphro dilemma" - but you do not say why, you simply assert it. How am I to know that a good God IS without first knowing what goodness is?Elizabeth Liddle
September 7, 2011
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Inflammatory, certainly, but more importantly, unconvincing, as you say :) This was my point to kf regarding the Euthyphro dilemma. If we first accept the existence of goodness (and define it, which, I would argue, we can do quite easily, to most people's satisfaction) then, in order to convince people of a the existence of a good God, theists can point to evidence that goodness is an intrinsic quality to the universe, or to other evidence that there may be that something beyond ourselves is Good. But without that first recognition of goodness, there is no way to separate the question of God's existence or otherwise, from the question of whether that God is worthy of worship. There could be clear evidence that the universe was created by an Intelligent Designer, but that would impose no obligation on us to worship that Designer unless we had evidence that the Designer was also Good - and to know that, we'd need to have a prior understanding of what that concept entails. Unless you define Good by what the Designer says is Good, and even then, the only sources are via human media, and there is no guarantee that what is written is what the Designer Really Meant. And even if it was, I'd have more respect for someone who rejected the Designer even on threat of everlasting torment, because her conscience said otherwise, than someone who denied their conscience to obey the literal words that some human being thought were Divine. Wouldn't you (plural)? (Not arguing with you, Scott, I agree with most of what you have said, possible all :) For most of my life, the most convincing argument I found for a good God was the simple existence of goodness in the world - of grace as I called it then, and still do, sometimes. I never found it confined, however, to those who claimed faith in a good God. Then I lost faith in anything other than the goodness part. Which was the best part anyway :)Elizabeth Liddle
September 7, 2011
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A rock isn't "objective" or "subjective". It's just a rock. What is objective or subjective, in the sense in which I was interpreting the words, is our knowledge of its existence. If a number of different observers can examine the putative rock, and agree that according to shared criteria, that it is, indeed, what is normally referred to as a "rock", then we can say that our knowledge that the object is a rock is objective. However, if several people look at the putative rock, and some think it's a dog dropping, others think it's a piece of plastic, and others think it's a sea slug, and no-one is in a position to test it to determine which of those models best fits the data, then the knowledge is pretty subjective. And if someone comes into a clinic and says they have a rock lodged in their head, that no-one else can see, but prevents them thinking, we say that their perception of the rock is entirely subjective, and that "objectively" i.e. verifiably by lots of different people, using shared criteria) there is, in fact, not rock there, and the person is delusional. So my point is that if the only way we know that some objective moral standard exists is because we believe it to be the case, then that isn't "objective" at all - in fact it's an oxymoron. And if the only understanding of what that supposedly objective moral standard is is by subjective methods like the consulting of one's own conscience, then it doesn't even matter whether it exists "objectively" or not - in fact, I would argue, that the word "objective" simply wouldn't mean anything in that context. We cannot establish the existence, or otherwise, or God, as we can of a rock, by measuring His/Her properties according to some agreed criteria and determining His/Her presence or absence accordingly. Or rather, I don't think we can. I have some respect for those who say - Turin Shroud, therefore God, therefore the 10 commandments are true, although I think that argument is full of holes. So in what sense does it mean anything to say that "there is an objective morality"? Especially when you also say: "but we can't know for sure what it is"?Elizabeth Liddle
September 7, 2011
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KF, I don't mean to oversimplify. But the underlying issue doesn't change. Religions relativise and manipulate morals too. We just finished watching the trial of a man who raped and impregnated young girls and claimed that it was God's will. What will we say, that atheists do evil because of their atheism while theists do it despite their theism? One is always a confirmation while the other is always an exception? Don't forget, I do believe in God. I believe that what morals he gives us are the greatest anyone could have, and that everything else falls short. But in practice, in real life, the difference isn't so easy to see. And as I said, that's what the Bible predicts repeatedly. It's an intentional obfuscation, and it works. And as a direct argument to an atheist, it amounts to stating that, yes, they are moral, but for all the wrong reasons. And as an example of properly grounded morals we use another group whose individuals may be more or less moral than that atheist. I'm not disagreeing with you. It just seems inflammatory and unconvincing to anyone who isn't already convinced. An observation of people who profess belief in God does not tell the desired story.ScottAndrews
September 7, 2011
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I go back to my earlier question to Scott though – in what sense is a purpose “objective” if it can only be accessed subjectively?
In what sense is a rock "objective" if it can only be accessed subjectively?William J Murray
September 7, 2011
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Hi Scott, It's the difference between theory and practice. In theory, atheists have no reason whatsoever to lead a moral life and every reason to lead an immoral life whenever it serves their interests, ie. most of the time. In practice, atheists borrow their morality from religion because religious influence is strong, true and enduring... even atheists cannot escape that fact. Remember, morality is an exclusively religious concept. The purest area for discussion therefore is atheistic theory, not atheistic practice. For too long, atheists have been pretending that they've got a rational basis to be moral when they have nothing of the sort. It's about time that people like you and me emphasised that fact (again and again, until it finally sinks in).Chris Doyle
September 7, 2011
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Elizabeth says:
I would argue that we can derive our oughts from what we know, or think, “is”, quite simply: if we know that some action of ours will cause pain and suffering (and science can tell us a lot about that) then we shouldn’t do it, or, at any rate, not without extreme counter-weighing reasons (to prevent greater pain and suffering, for instance).
The problem is that you are begging the question. Why should I care about causing others pain and suffering in the first place? The "ought" you are referring to is that we ought not cause others pain and suffering; why is that? That pain and suffering exists doesn't tell us we should stop it or avoid causing it. You've lept over your premise; what premise or principle indicates that we should not inflict pain or suffering on others?
We don’t need to posit a god to figure that out.
You don't need a god to assert whatever unfounded assertions you wish to make, but you do require some sort of grounding or premise to hold up your claim that we ought not harm others, when I could simply make the counterclaim - we ought to harm others - and have it rest as valid as your claim when there is no principle by which we can arbit our disagreement.
All we need to do is to transcend our own immediate and personal desires – look above the parapet, if you will. Believe in Good. As my son said: I believe in God as long as it’s spelled with two o’s.
Another begged question; why should I transcend my own immediate and personal desires?William J Murray
September 7, 2011
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