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Rabbi pleads with Darwinian atheists: Turn back from legal pedophilia. But they can’t.

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Moshe Averick
Jewish? I'll pester you until you take your heritage seriously ...

The Maverick Rabbi, author of The Confused, Illusory World of the Atheist speaks up on the unmentionable subject in “A Plea to Atheists: Pedophilia Is Next On the Slippery Slope; Let Us Turn Back Before It Is Too Late” (Algemeiner, August 29, 2011) Moshe Averick points out that materialist atheism is intrinsically amoral. One results is capsuled by the journey of a philosophy professor:

Joel Marks, Professor Emeritus of Philosophy at the U. of New Haven, who for 10 years authored the “Moral Moments” column in Philosophy Now, made the following, rather shocking about-face in a 2010 article entitled, “An Amoral Manifesto.”

“This philosopher has been laboring under an unexamined assumption, namely that there is such a thing as right and wrong. I now believe there isn’t…The long and short of it is that I became convinced that atheism implies amorality; and since I am an atheist, I must therefore embrace amorality…I experienced my shocking epiphany that religious fundamentalists are correct; without God there is no morality. But they are incorrect, I still believe, about there being a God. Hence, I believe, there is no morality.

Marks then quite boldly and candidly addresses the implications of his newfound beliefs:

“Even though words like “sinful” and “evil” come naturally to the tongue as say a description of child molesting. They do not describe any actual properties of anything. There are no literal sins in the world because there is no literal God…nothing is literally right or wrong because there is no Morality…yet we human beings can still discover plenty of completely naturally explainable resources for motivating certain preferences. Thus enough of us are sufficiently averse to the molestation of children and would likely continue to be…

At this point the utter intellectual (and moral) bankruptcy of Marks’ position becomes apparent. After correctly concluding that a world without God is free from the shackles of the illusory concepts of morality and immorality, he pathetically attempts to have his cake and eat it too by suggesting that there is something “good” or “better” about the preference to being averse to child molestation.

Well, Darwin – the materialist atheist’s only true deity – could explain the preference of some for molesting girls because it sexualizes a girl early, resulting in more selfish genes being spread later. Of course, he can’t offer quite the same explanation for molesting boys. Oh wait, Darwinian theory accounts for homosexuality because gays can help siblings raise children, thus spreading some of their selfish genes more successfully. Thus molesting boys gets them into the habit of helping others spread their selfish genes.

What about those uptight folk who oppose the practice? Darwin can explain that too, as it happens: They evolved in such a way as to conserve their selfish genes until there is a high chance of success.

It all lays waste to any argument for protecting children.

In this context, “atheists” means “materialist atheists,” of course. The Dalai Lama (as other Buddhists) is technically an atheist, but the heart of Buddhism is the idea that the cosmos is – among other things – profoundly moral. Thus karma forbids any escape from the consequences of one’s actions. That kind of atheism is unlikely to catch on seriously in today’s West.

The Darwinian atheist, by contrast, thinks that morality is an illusion, as Michael Ruse puts it – maybe useful, maybe not. But the atheist decides which it is, depending on the preferences dictated by his selfish genes. That’s just so much more attractive.

How will it end? In “Our atheist commenters have kindly explained why atheism is doomed”, we see how atheists will destroy atheism: From time immemorial, people who flirt with “no actual morality” are easy prey for people dedicated to an evil morality.

See also: “Rabbi: Dawkins claimed that a debate he lost had never occurred – until it was posted online”, featuring yet another rabbi who doesn’t play rollover for Darwinists.

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Comments
You are right that I can't see it, kf. It seems circular to me.Elizabeth Liddle
September 7, 2011
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Interesting reply :) I go back to my earlier question to Scott though - in what sense is a purpose "objective" if it can only be accessed subjectively?Elizabeth Liddle
September 7, 2011
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Elizabeth asks,
But what’s that got to do with theism? Any atheist could, and most probably would, say the same.
For there to be a good that is universally objective for all humans, humans must have a purpose that is not open to subjective designation (note: not "interpretation"). IOW, we must be subjectively interpreting a purpose that is outside of our selves, much like our belief that our senses interpret objective phenomena that exist outside of our selves. If humans actually have an objective purpose, that necessarily means that some sentient entity created us for thta purpose, because inanimate, non-sentient matter does not generate "purpose"; only a sentient entity can do that. If you have an entity that created humans to fulfill a purpose, which we interpret through the sense we call "conscience", then I think it is appropriate to label such an entity "god", at least for the time being, and also in light of other, associated arguments which would also lead to a finding that such a label would be appropriate.William J Murray
September 7, 2011
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SA: The issue is NOT "Atheism = no morals" -- a strawman caricature, but instead that atheistical worldviews cannot warrant OUGHT on a foundational IS. the consequence of that inherent amorlity is that morality will be relativised and manipulated by the clever or powerful, much as we are seeing. And, notice the sponsoring organisation for that pederasty conference: B4U-ACT. This is the beginnings of yet another radically relativist, amorality rooted agenda that seeks to becloud and benumb to get the institutions of society to approve yet another destructive evil and censor or shut down those who would dare object. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
September 7, 2011
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Dr Liddle, it seems your problem is you disagree with the solution, in light of your worldview level premises. That matter of opinions has nothing to do with the fact that it is demonstrably sound. The good God who is the ground of reality would make a world in accord with that goodness, and the goodness of what is right will reveal itself by objective factors such as are captured in the CI; i.e. evil profits by parasiting off the good. That is, if evils were to become the norm, the community would collapse. Morality is not arbitrary, nor is good independent of the foundational reality of the cosmos, the inherently good, Creator God. We therefore have here an IS who can ground OUGHT, and one simply not vulnerable to the Euthyphro dilemma, so called: morality is not arbitrary, God's commands per his character will be for our own good, and good is not separate from God. QED, in summary. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
September 7, 2011
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There are plenty of good reasons to believe in God. Atheism = no morals just isn't one of them. It doesn't hold up. If it did, we would see a consistent pattern of atheists committing horrible crimes and religious folk just staying out of trouble. We would all be afraid of atheists. We would tell our kids not to play with atheists' kids. Presumably they would be easy to pick out of a crowd. If I were an atheist, this line of reasoning wouldn't convince me at all. If anything it would have the opposite effect by drawing attention to how hypocritical religions can be. If all of the positive evidence doesn't persuade an atheist, this certainly isn't going to help.ScottAndrews
September 7, 2011
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Yes, I do need it, kairosfocus. I simply don't accept that atheism is inherently amoral. I don't think the statement makes any sense. As for Hawthorne - I find it odd that someone here should argue that you can't derive an ought from an is. In one sense I entirely agree, which is why I think the argument that Darwinism justifies eugenics is absurd. Darwinist theory is an "is" theory - like all scientific theories, of course, it's a provisional "is" but it certainly isn't an "ought". However, in another sense I disagree - I would argue that we can derive our oughts from what we know, or think, "is", quite simply: if we know that some action of ours will cause pain and suffering (and science can tell us a lot about that) then we shouldn't do it, or, at any rate, not without extreme counter-weighing reasons (to prevent greater pain and suffering, for instance). We don't need to posit a god to figure that out. All we need to do is to transcend our own immediate and personal desires - look above the parapet, if you will. Believe in Good. As my son said: I believe in God as long as it's spelled with two o's.Elizabeth Liddle
September 7, 2011
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Fair enough. That's inaccurate and I'll retract it. A set of morals can be derived from other sources such as one's culture or parents. That explains why people can belong to a religion but follow conflicting morals provided by their peers or parental examples.ScottAndrews
September 7, 2011
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Elizabeth said:
One way of deciding that there are objective moral standards is to posit an objective moral-standard-setter. But that’s where the problems begin, it seems to me.
One doesn't "decide" that there are "objective moral standards" BY "positing an objective moral-standard-setter"; one decides which premise is best for a moral system (that it describes and objective or a subjetive good) by examining the ramifications of each premise. Since a subjective-good based morality can justify and validate anything one wishes, allowing one to do whatever one wishes, there is hardly any reason to call such a system "morality".
Exactly. So what’s “objective” about that? As you say: “for some of us, we believe….” That’s subjective, not objective.
You seem to be confused here about what the terms "subjective" and "objective" are referring to. Everything humans come in contact with is subjectively processed, including rocks, the taste of beer, concepts, gravity, dreams, buildings and faerie tales. We either believe those things to be entirely subjective in nature, or we assume we are subjectively interpreting an objectively-existent phenomena. The term "subjective" and "objective" refers to what we believe about the nature of what we are experiencing.
Exactly. We follow our consciences, which, as you rightly say, we all have. But those are, almost by definition, subjective.
No, they are not "by definition" subjective, unless one presupposes an atheistic or physicalist worldview. The conscience, like any sense, can be assumed to be interpreting either a purely subjective or an objective phenomena.
What is the point of believing in an “objective morality” if you can’t possess it?
What is the point of believing in an objective exterior reality, if you cannot possess it (and no one can, if by "possessing" you mean "prove")? There are some things which must be believed whether or not one can prove them because to not believe them leads to madness or ruin (if one is brave enough to follow their beliefs where they inevitably lead). Objective grounding for morality is one of the things one must believe in, or failing that, on must simply ignore the ramifications of their belief, which IMO is intellectually dishonest.
Atheists keep it simple
If by "keeping it simple" you mean "unexamined to avoid dealing with the consequences", I agree.William J Murray
September 7, 2011
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F/N: Cf link at 13 above, and other comments from 4.1.1 above on.kairosfocus
September 7, 2011
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Dr Liddle, you know or should know that the key issue ias the worldview level foundational IS that can ground OUGHT. Theism has such an is, evolutionary materialist atheism -- the relevant sort - - plainly does not. This has again been outlined and linked above. So, this is for record, on a worldview level intellectual stronghold that seems to be blocking you from seeing what is right there in front of you, and has been put there over and over, here at UD. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
September 7, 2011
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Dr Liddle, this has been done countless times here at UD and enough times in your presence that you should be well aware; cf above at 4.1.1, noting the discussion by Hawthorne. Do you need a further discussion, on Provine, or on Plato's warning from 2350 years ago on the inherent amorality of atheism? Atheists have the same implanted conscience as the rest of us, but the point is that the process of turning to atheism and trying to justify it on the usual premises tends to benumb said conscience, precisely through the amorality factor that radically relativises moral judgements; hence the way fashionable evils get promoted. And the issue at stake in this thread, B4U-ACT's conference, is another case in point of yet another group trying to exploit that amorality and relativism, to the harm of individuals and the civilisation as a whole. Let us not lose sight of that. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
September 7, 2011
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F/N: This is more specifically focussed on grounding morality, on a comparative difficulties basis, and explicitly addresses the Euthyphro dilemma, so called.kairosfocus
September 7, 2011
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Elizabeth, I'm not entirely disagreeing with you. There is objectivity at the top. After that we have to start making decisions.
And why are those particular laws absolute, and not any of the other laws found in the bible?
Because that's what the Bible says. Most laws were expressly for the Jews and are no longer binding. Even still they usually provide some insight into what God expects from us.
I’m constantly being told that atheists, unlike theists, have no objective morality, but I see nothing objective about theistic morality
No argument here. For what it's worth, the Bible said that would happen too, more than once. But if we're willing to try to sort that out then it shows that we're really looking for it. Or it can be our reason for turning away from it all. It's interesting that God doesn't approach these things the way that we might. Rather than hang a neon light in the sky, he lets us show what we want by looking for it.
To be honest, I find that more often than not, religious/theistic beliefs get in the way of those ethics, because they introduce unsubstantiated weirdnesses ... that they refrain from some particular form of sex
That goes back to my first point about being a theist, believing that God actually exists. As parents, do we set rules regarding when our children should have sex? (I hope so!) Why? Because we know things that they don't. What if our children decided that our rules were "unsubstantiated weirdness?" Likewise, is it so hard to believe that someone smart enough to design life and the human brain might know something about that creation that we don't, and might provide certain rules both for our protection and for that of society as a whole? Don't we go to doctors and ask them to use their knowledge and training to tell us what to do? Or do we reason that what's good for us is what's good for us and that's good enough?ScottAndrews
September 7, 2011
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Elizabeth asks:
…how do you derive an objective morality/ethical system from theism?
If one begins with the premise that morality describes an objective good, then like any objective phenomena we find self-evidently true (it is always wrong to torture infants for personal pleasure) and necessarily true statements (if there is a self-evidently true moral statement, humans must have a purpose, since morality must refer to a purpose to provide any oughts), then on to contingently true moral statements (we should stop Joe from putting his cigarettes out on his toddler’s skin), to generally true moral theory (it’s generally wrong to harm the weak and defenseless). From such a grounding and premises, we can infer a rational moral structure by reaching sound conclusions about what is moral and what is immoral.
But what's that got to do with theism? Any atheist could, and most probably would, say the same.Elizabeth Liddle
September 7, 2011
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I'm sorry, kf, but I simply do not understand the point you are "point[ing] out"! It seems to me that you have not solved the Euthyphro dilemma at all, but rather you have done what any reasonable person would do and to come down on one side: to assign what is morally good to God, not the other way round. And by coming down on that side you do not solve the subjectivity problem, but are in the same boat as a non-theist. My own position is that it isn't such a bad boat to be in, for the reasons Scott Andrews gives - we do have an inbuilt sense of what is good, whether we call it God or not, which is why I think it's the right side of the dilemma to be on. The other side is appalling, and no less subjective, as I see it - first you make a subjective decision about which of many postulated gods is the True God, then obey what you (again subjectively) figure out to be that God's True Word. Which is where religion gets extremely dangerous IMO. But it seems to me you can't have it both ways. There is no resolution to Euthyphro's dilemma. There is no objective morality, merely what we, with our human intelligence and moral capacity can figure out. I'd say that capacity evolved, you might say it is God-given, but the outcome is the same either way.Elizabeth Liddle
September 7, 2011
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ScottAndrews said:
I’m not minimizing the importance of objective morality. Without it no one would have a conscience. But it’s a huge leap to say that someone is going to ignore their conscience and do wrong just because they think it evolved.
If one believes that morality describes an objective good, then that means one must believe that there is a purpose for human beings, and that there are consequences to fulfilling or not fulfilling that purpose. This provides fundamental grounds and motivation to not only examine morality as the most important aspect of our existence, but to understand it and do our best to be moral. If one believes that morality are just evolved, happenstance sensations that we have due to differential reproduction, one can consider morality nothing more than a taste - a flavor, so to speak, something that one can do or not do. It would be similar to not liking the taste of beer, but for the sake of peer pressure or some other desire, one acclimates themselves to the taste. Why not? It's not going to kill you. Also, if one finds themselves in a gang and they want you to rob someone to gain respect, why not? Also, if you're in the military and they order you to gun down a bunch of Jews herded to the side of the railroad tracks, why not? Morality is just whatever subjective tastes one happens to have acquired, which can be changed. Therefore, atheism opens the door to the rationalization of anything, as long as it is perceived to ultimately serve one's own goal, whatever that may be. Elizabeth asks:
...how do you derive an objective morality/ethical system from theism?
If one begins with the premise that morality describes an objective good, then like any objective phenomena we find self-evidently true (it is always wrong to torture infants for personal pleasure) and necessarily true statements (if there is a self-evidently true moral statement, humans must have a purpose, since morality must refer to a purpose to provide any oughts), then on to contingently true moral statements (we should stop Joe from putting his cigarettes out on his toddler's skin), to generally true moral theory (it's generally wrong to harm the weak and defenseless). From such a grounding and premises, we can infer a rational moral structure by reaching sound conclusions about what is moral and what is immoral.William J Murray
September 7, 2011
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F/N 2: For record, cf. here on, on grounding morality and a lot of other things on a theistic worldview.kairosfocus
September 7, 2011
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Dr Liddle, this has been pointed out to you, over and over and over again. Why do you insist on pretending there is not cf here on a worldview level grounding framework [just one quick case . . . ] for objective morality in the inherently good Creator God, as the IS who can bear the weight of OUGHT? The ONLY serious worldview foundation candidate for such . . . GEM of TKIkairosfocus
September 7, 2011
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It starts with actually believing that God exists, and is a real person who has moral standards and the authority to set standards for us.
Fair enough. One way of deciding that there are objective moral standards is to posit an objective moral-standard-setter. But that's where the problems begin, it seems to me.
Next, we strive to learn what those standards are. For many of us, we believe that those are found in the Bible. In some cases those are absolute laws – don’t kill people, don’t fornicate or lie.
Exactly. So what's "objective" about that? As you say: "for some of us, we believe...." That's subjective, not objective. Why did you decide that for you the bible was the authentic word of the objective moral-setter? Why not some other book? And why are those particular laws absolute, and not any of the other laws found in the bible? Those on the replacement set of stone tablets, for example?
Not all laws are so precise. For example, the law to love one another. How does one do that? We can learn by reading the Bible and learning how God shows love, but it’s never going to be an exact road map. We have to follow our consciences and try our best.
Exactly. We follow our consciences, which, as you rightly say, we all have. But those are, almost by definition, subjective. Do you see my problem? I'm constantly being told that atheists, unlike theists, have no objective morality, but I see nothing objective about theistic morality, not least because the laws that are claimed to be "objective" are cherry-picked like nobody's business and interpreted (rightly, IMO) by conscience. What is the point of believing in an "objective morality" if you can't possess it? You might as well have an honestly subjective one, and derive it as far as possible from rational principles, like minimizing harm and maximising the welfare of others. In fact I can't think of any definition of ethics that doesn't boil down to that - morality is, in a sense, the deprioritising of the self - the drive to pursue actions for someone else's benefit even when it doesn't suit our own. Ethics are the set of principles we try to devise to define those actions. To be honest, I find that more often than not, religious/theistic beliefs get in the way of those ethics, because they introduce unsubstantiated weirdnesses, such as that it may be in someone else's best interest, in some postulated afterlife, that they refrain from some particular form of sex, or some particular item of diet. Atheists keep it simple - what's good for you is what is good for you, not what some subjectively selected book says will be good for you in the next world, if not in this.Elizabeth Liddle
September 7, 2011
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PS: Let's put the key B4U-ACT (as in, this is an agenda . . . ) talking points on record, clipping from a previous UD post that brought them up:
Pedophiles are “unfairly stigmatized and demonized” by society. “Anglo-Americans’ standard on age of consent is new (and ‘puritanical’). In Europe, it was always set at 10 or 12. Ages of consent beyond that are relatively new and very strange, especially for boys. They’ve always been able to have sex at any age.” “An adult’s desire to have sex with children is ‘normative.’” Our society should “maximize individual liberty. We have a highly moralistic society that is not consistent with liberty.” Dr. Fred Berlin acknowledged that it was political activism, similar to that witnessed at the conference, rather than scientific considerations that successfully led to the declassification of homosexuality as a mental disorder. “The majority of pedophiles are gentle and rational.” The diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders should “focus on the needs” of the pedophile, and should have “a minimal focus on social control,” rather than obsessing about “the need to protect children.” Self-described “gay activist” and speaker Jacob Breslow said that children can properly be “the object of our attention.” He further objectified children, suggesting that pedophiles needn’t gain consent from a child to have sex with “it” any more than we need consent from a shoe to wear it. He then used graphic, slang language to favorably describe the act of climaxing . . . “on or with” a child. No one in attendance objected to this explicit depiction of child sexual assault . . . .
kairosfocus
September 7, 2011
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F/N: I have commented for record at 4.1.1 above.kairosfocus
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Timbo: Pardon, but if a position leads to absurdity, that is a sign that it is in gross error. But, it may be being protected by intellectual strongholds such as abuse of the name science through a priori imposition of materialist philosophy, as Lewontin documents so plainly. So, let us recognise that that censoring a priori is a stronghold on our minds, and leads to all sorts of absurdities. One of these is aptly documented by Will Hawthorne, and the consequences of the imposition as shown expose the a priori for what it is, necessarily false on many dimensions (cf here and here). Hawthorne:
Assume (per impossibile) that atheistic naturalism [[= evolutionary materialism] is true. Assume, furthermore, that one can't infer an 'ought' from an 'is' [[the 'is' being in this context physicalist: matter-energy, space- time, chance and mechanical forces]. (Richard Dawkins and many other atheists should grant both of these assumptions.) Given our second assumption, there is no description of anything in the natural world from which we can infer an 'ought'. And given our first assumption, there is nothing that exists over and above the natural world; the natural world is all that there is. It follows logically that, for any action you care to pick, there's no description of anything in the natural world from which we can infer that one ought to refrain from performing that action. Add a further uncontroversial assumption: an action is permissible if and only if it's not the case that one ought to refrain from performing that action . . . [[We see] therefore, for any action you care to pick, it's permissible to perform that action. If you'd like, you can take this as the meat behind the slogan 'if atheism is true, all things are permitted'. For example if atheism is true, every action Hitler performed was permissible. Many atheists don't like this consequence of their worldview. But they cannot escape it and insist that they are being logical at the same time. Now, we all know that at least some actions are really not permissible (for example, racist actions). Since the conclusion of the argument denies this, there must be a problem somewhere in the argument. Could the argument be invalid? No. The argument has not violated a single rule of logic and all inferences were made explicit. Thus we are forced to deny the truth of one of the assumptions we started out with. That means we either deny atheistic naturalism or (the more intuitively appealing) principle that one can't infer 'ought' from [[a material] 'is'.
Reduction to absurdity, QED. Similarly, we need to pay attention to the basic problem that the recent Maryland Social Workers' B4U-ACT Aug 17, 2011 conference on trying to erode social and legal objections to pederasty and wider preying on under-age girls and boys, is exposing, namely the confusion of liberty and license. As I noted in my recent post here, we can observe one of the key, all too revealing, talking points being pushed in that conference:
Our society should “maximize individual liberty. We have a highly moralistic society that is not consistent with liberty.”
A glance at the Webster's 1828 Dictionary is enough to highlight the confusion:
LIB’ERTY, n. [L. libertas, from liber, free.] . . . 3. Civil liberty, is the liberty of men in a state of society, or natural liberty [i.e. sense 1: ". . . the power of acting as one thinks fit, without any restraint or control, except from the laws of nature."], so far only abridged and restrained, as is necessary and expedient for the safety and interest of the society, state or nation. A restraint of natural liberty, not necessary or expedient for the public, is tyranny or oppression. civil liberty is an exemption from the arbitrary will of others, which exemption is secured by established laws, which restrain every man from injuring or controlling another. Hence the restraints of law are essential to civil liberty.The liberty of one depends not so much on the removal of all restraint from him, as on the due restraint upon the liberty of others. In this sentence, the latter word liberty denotes natural liberty. LI’CENSE, n. [L. licentia, from liceo, to be permitted.] . . . 2. Excess of liberty; exorbitant freedom; freedom abused, or used in contempt of law or decorum.License they mean, when they cry liberty.
That is exactly what is going on, and as soon as one barrier is eroded enough to shift political, media and legal institutions in favour of the latest agenda of iniquity being pushed, lo and behold, an even more extreme behaviour demands to be seen as acceptable. Our civilisation is plainly sliding down a dangerous slope and off a cliff. (Cf the acid remark on what lies behind that pattern, here.) Ironically, all of this was warned against by Plato in The Laws, Bk X, 2350 years ago. Not as groundless scare-mongering, but as the warning from a society that lost its way and was ground down then decisively defeated by its enemies. Including by its best and brightest, a certain Alcibiades. But, those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat its worst chapters. It is high time to say, enough is enough. "Let's roll!" GEM of TKIkairosfocus
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Elizabeth, It starts with actually believing that God exists, and is a real person who has moral standards and the authority to set standards for us. Next, we strive to learn what those standards are. For many of us, we believe that those are found in the Bible. In some cases those are absolute laws - don't kill people, don't fornicate or lie. Not all laws are so precise. For example, the law to love one another. How does one do that? We can learn by reading the Bible and learning how God shows love, but it's never going to be an exact road map. We have to follow our consciences and try our best. And most of what we live by aren't laws at all, they are principles, such as being peaceable (that reminds me not to get carried away with what I post!) or not showing favor to the wealthy over the poor. More important than knowing what to do is doing it. Which matters more, a person who knows all this and then kills you, or someone who couldn't care less about most of it but values human life? Here's where it ends up: Belief in God means belief that there is an objective, absolute morality. But we can't "derive" it. We only have what's given to us. Think of it as a parent and a child. The parent has a much deeper knowledge of right and wrong, but doesn't lay every bit of it on the child. The parent says, "Never punch your friends," and that's an absolute. "Be nice to your friends," but there's room for interpretation. As the child grows he learns what that means. "Stay out of the street," but that's not even about morality, and one day the child can make that decision for himself. So while we do believe in an objective morality, we can't claim to possess it. Is it wrong to kill? No. God can kill, but I can't. God can be wrathful, but I'm not supposed to. We trust in God like a child trusts his parents. We understand as much as we can, but we obey because we know and love God. (I'd describe it more clinically if I could, but this is more accurate.)ScottAndrews
September 7, 2011
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I agree that atheism, followed to its logical conclusion, means that there is no morality and that we should all do whatever we want if we can get away with it.
But why? Can you explain the chain of logical reasoning that leads you to this conclusion?Elizabeth Liddle
September 7, 2011
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Nullasus, I agree that atheism, followed to its logical conclusion, means that there is no morality and that we should all do whatever we want if we can get away with it. But in practice, that's not how they typically live or think. The guy in the OP is some weirdo in a turtleneck sweater. (That's just how I imagine him.) I'm not minimizing the importance of objective morality. Without it no one would have a conscience. But it's a huge leap to say that someone is going to ignore their conscience and do wrong just because they think it evolved. Atheists sometimes use their atheism as an excuse for evil. Theists sometimes use theism as an excuse for evil, or they just ignore their beliefs or pretend not to see the conflict. I'm not lumping them all together and saying it doesn't matter. It does. But I can't see looking at the OP and conclude that atheists want to rape children or murder. They say they don't, and whatever other disagreements there are, I find that part easy to believe.ScottAndrews
September 7, 2011
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So, nullasalus, how do you derive an objective morality/ethical system from theism?Elizabeth Liddle
September 7, 2011
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I believe that atheists have the same god-given conscience as anyone else, and are just as likely to chuck it aside as anyone else. Don't you think you're more likely to chuck it aside if you believe that whatever conscience you have is not only not God-given, but can never be informed by God or even some platonic Goodness, but rather is necessarily the result of factors not only beyond your control, and forces which are ultimately purposeless and pointless, and always will be? I mean, I understand the general desire to see the good in people. But not to the point where we start pretending their beliefs are more than they are. I don’t see what’s constructive about telling people that their morality is imaginary. It’s like looking for evil in people who haven’t done anything. Why not see the good in people instead? So, you'd object to atheists telling theists that their morality is imaginary, that there is no such thing as objective morality, etc? On the flipside, is it really "looking for evil in people who haven't done anything" to point out what their worldview necessarily entails? Isn't it pretty dangerous to pretend the person who thinks all morality is ultimately subjective really doesn't think that? I notice that this thread's OP has an atheist explicitly saying they 'must embrace amorality', that words like 'sinful' and 'evil' don't describe properties of anything. Let me ask you this: Is the problem with Marks thinking this? Is there a problem with his beliefs? Or is it only his language? Like, 'Oh, well, even if that's true, he shouldn't say it.'?nullasalus
September 7, 2011
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Very sensible comment - thanks.markf
September 7, 2011
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Well, let me pose to you directly the question I'm asking: how do you derive an objective morality from theism? And what is it?Elizabeth Liddle
September 6, 2011
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