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Rabbi pleads with Darwinian atheists: Turn back from legal pedophilia. But they can’t.

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Moshe Averick
Jewish? I'll pester you until you take your heritage seriously ...

The Maverick Rabbi, author of The Confused, Illusory World of the Atheist speaks up on the unmentionable subject in “A Plea to Atheists: Pedophilia Is Next On the Slippery Slope; Let Us Turn Back Before It Is Too Late” (Algemeiner, August 29, 2011) Moshe Averick points out that materialist atheism is intrinsically amoral. One results is capsuled by the journey of a philosophy professor:

Joel Marks, Professor Emeritus of Philosophy at the U. of New Haven, who for 10 years authored the “Moral Moments” column in Philosophy Now, made the following, rather shocking about-face in a 2010 article entitled, “An Amoral Manifesto.”

“This philosopher has been laboring under an unexamined assumption, namely that there is such a thing as right and wrong. I now believe there isn’t…The long and short of it is that I became convinced that atheism implies amorality; and since I am an atheist, I must therefore embrace amorality…I experienced my shocking epiphany that religious fundamentalists are correct; without God there is no morality. But they are incorrect, I still believe, about there being a God. Hence, I believe, there is no morality.

Marks then quite boldly and candidly addresses the implications of his newfound beliefs:

“Even though words like “sinful” and “evil” come naturally to the tongue as say a description of child molesting. They do not describe any actual properties of anything. There are no literal sins in the world because there is no literal God…nothing is literally right or wrong because there is no Morality…yet we human beings can still discover plenty of completely naturally explainable resources for motivating certain preferences. Thus enough of us are sufficiently averse to the molestation of children and would likely continue to be…

At this point the utter intellectual (and moral) bankruptcy of Marks’ position becomes apparent. After correctly concluding that a world without God is free from the shackles of the illusory concepts of morality and immorality, he pathetically attempts to have his cake and eat it too by suggesting that there is something “good” or “better” about the preference to being averse to child molestation.

Well, Darwin – the materialist atheist’s only true deity – could explain the preference of some for molesting girls because it sexualizes a girl early, resulting in more selfish genes being spread later. Of course, he can’t offer quite the same explanation for molesting boys. Oh wait, Darwinian theory accounts for homosexuality because gays can help siblings raise children, thus spreading some of their selfish genes more successfully. Thus molesting boys gets them into the habit of helping others spread their selfish genes.

What about those uptight folk who oppose the practice? Darwin can explain that too, as it happens: They evolved in such a way as to conserve their selfish genes until there is a high chance of success.

It all lays waste to any argument for protecting children.

In this context, “atheists” means “materialist atheists,” of course. The Dalai Lama (as other Buddhists) is technically an atheist, but the heart of Buddhism is the idea that the cosmos is – among other things – profoundly moral. Thus karma forbids any escape from the consequences of one’s actions. That kind of atheism is unlikely to catch on seriously in today’s West.

The Darwinian atheist, by contrast, thinks that morality is an illusion, as Michael Ruse puts it – maybe useful, maybe not. But the atheist decides which it is, depending on the preferences dictated by his selfish genes. That’s just so much more attractive.

How will it end? In “Our atheist commenters have kindly explained why atheism is doomed”, we see how atheists will destroy atheism: From time immemorial, people who flirt with “no actual morality” are easy prey for people dedicated to an evil morality.

See also: “Rabbi: Dawkins claimed that a debate he lost had never occurred – until it was posted online”, featuring yet another rabbi who doesn’t play rollover for Darwinists.

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Comments
Well said :)Elizabeth Liddle
September 6, 2011
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I can see someone is angry!kuartus
September 6, 2011
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I believe that atheists have the same god-given conscience as anyone else, and are just as likely to chuck it aside as anyone else. That means that we all have mostly the same basis for morality, even though many of us ignore it. (That might irk atheists, but it's not my intention.) Most atheists I know are normal people who don't do wrong things because they don't want to do wrong things. I don't see what's constructive about telling people that their morality is imaginary. It's like looking for evil in people who haven't done anything. Why not see the good in people instead? We can debate where the conscience comes from, but they have them whether they like them or not.ScottAndrews
September 6, 2011
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The point that I take away from the OP is that belief in G-d is a useful pseudo-morality for psychopaths.lastyearon
September 6, 2011
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Elizabeth, I dont think anyone is saying that atheists don't have morality. What is being said is that under atheism there can only be subjective morality.What is right to one person might not be right to another, so that there can be no objective morality independent of the different opinions of people.kuartus
September 6, 2011
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I don't understand the point being made in the OP. There is absolutely no reason why anyone should draw a moral lesson from a scientific model, whether or not it fits the data. Nobody argues that because e=mc^2m therefore atomic warfare is ethical, so why should they argue that because young girls are fertile, having sex with them is ethical? Science can tell us some useful things to bear in mind when considering some ethical questions (for instance, how much suffering a living being is likely to experience as a result of some action) but it can't tell the answers to ethical questions. My challenge to anyone who claims that atheism has no moral answers is to tell me what answers theism provides.Elizabeth Liddle
September 6, 2011
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Personally I don't think that atheists in general want to rape children or that atheist pedophiles are more or less likely to do so than religious pedophiles (with the exception that an appearance of faith creates one additional way to gain the trust of children or their parents.) Atheists inclined to pedophilia know it's wrong just like someone religious does. The question about how they derive that knowledge is a good one, but it has no bearing on the outcome. Whatever a person does or does not believe is only one factor but does not determine whether or not they will do something they know is wrong. Who's done more evil than the devil? He's not an atheist.ScottAndrews
September 6, 2011
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Why does the lack of an ultimate authority figure render wrong meaningless in the context of human society?DrBot
September 6, 2011
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Because "wrong" has no meaning, except perhaps as "Here is how my molecules happen to be reacting today".snelldl
September 6, 2011
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Atheism leads to it as a natural consequence because, according to the Rabbi, there is no real right or wrong.
But you haven't explained why people in general would want to do this. If there is no right or wrong then why doesn't atheism naturally lead to people NOT raping children? Why do ID ists keep insisting that atheism means people will inevitably do the worst things possible just because (they claim) anything is permissible - why isn't the best inevitable - or is that the point: It's not about reality it's about political rhetoric and fostering hate and fear of people who don't believe the same as you.DrBot
September 6, 2011
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Barb, it doesn't matter what I believe or what you believe or want to be true. To say something is "utter nonsense and everyone knows it" is pointless. Many people have thought they have known many things over the centuries and derided "nonsense". It's not going to make the facts go away. "If it feels good, do it, no matter what the consequences." You imply this is Dawkin's position. Please provide a reference for this. It certainly doesn't follow from his coinage of the phrase "selfish gene". You might also like to provide some support for your statement that atheists don't have a concept of right and wrong. I live in a secular country where very few people are religious, and we certainly have laws against rape.Timbo
September 5, 2011
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Timbo writes, 'Blue_Savannah, that sounds scary, but what if its true? What if the paedophile and rapist are no different to lightening?' This is utter nonsense, and everyone knows it. People can choose not to rape children; lightning cannot choose to not hit the ground. Seriously, if you genuinely believe this, then I question your intelligence. ' I don’t see where gullibility comes into it. If the evidence leads to that conclusion (and I’m not saying it does) then we have to follow it there. It seems to me that a lot of what drives the theist approach is one of fear. Fear at where our investigations might lead us." So, it's not morally wrong, but it's legally wrong. Should we abolish laws that relate to rape, molestation, and torture because they're as natural as lightning? If the answer is yes, then whats' your reaction when one of your friends or family members is raped or tortured? If the answer is 'oh, well, it's nature at work,' then you are proof positive of the Bible's correctness when it speaks of people 'running to a low sink of debauchery' at First Peter. DrBot writes, "Has God ever actually said that pedophilia is wrong? The Bible is a bit vague on the issue, particularly in the bits about Moses, and some of the stuff on marriage and rape." Actually, the Bible is pretty clear that rape is wrong. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed shortly after a mob made up of adults and young boys persisted in asking for Lot's guests to come out and be raped. "I’m not an atheist, but I don’t have a direct line to God so I actually have no idea if God thinks it is wrong or not. The issue for me is much simpler. Why would anyone want to do something like this? Would you want to cut your own fingers off?" According to scientists like Dawkins, we're helpless against our selfish genes. If it feels good, do it, no matter what the consequences. "Saying that atheism will lead to it as a natural consequence makes no sense UNLESS you see pedophilia as something desirable, yet prohibited. To me it sounds like the people on this thread, and the Rabbi in the OP, are talking about pedophilia as if it is something they would want to do if it wasn’t immoral." Atheism leads to it as a natural consequence because, according to the Rabbi, there is no real right or wrong. Apparently, we shouldn't create laws to protect children from pedophiles because there's nothing that makes it wrong. I'm not an atheist--thank God for that--but I question the intelligence of anyone who says that nothing is right or wrong. They're denying reality in doing so.Barb
September 5, 2011
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Blue_Savannah, that sounds scary, but what if its true? What if the paedophile and rapist are no different to lightening? I don't see where gullibility comes into it. If the evidence leads to that conclusion (and I'm not saying it does) then we have to follow it there. It seems to me that a lot of what drives the theist approach is one of fear. Fear at where our investigations might lead us.Timbo
September 5, 2011
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Because an authority declares something wrong doesn’t make it wrong; things are morally wrong because they detract from or violate the purpose of humanity.
So if God (the ultimate authority) declares that it is wrong, then it doesn't have to be, unless it contradicts our purpose. Any idea how we divine our purpose (in a way that everyone can agree on), and from that, how we determine if child abuse detracts from it?
If one denies that humans have an objective purpose (Aristotlean “good”, final cause), then everything is permissible.
why?DrBot
September 5, 2011
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Those atheists were being consistent in their beliefs.
If I were an atheist why would it be inconsistent with atheism to believe that harming children was wrong? - like you said, the damaging effects of abuse can be seen. Burning oneself causes harm and I don't need an ultimate lawgiver to tell me that. I could believe in a God for whom the suffering of children was inconsequential.DrBot
September 5, 2011
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Can any of you think of any reason why it might be a bad thing to do, in the absence of some authority just declaring it as wrong?
Because an authority declares something wrong doesn't make it wrong; things are morally wrong because they detract from or violate the purpose of humanity. Things can only be "right" or "wrong" in terms of a purpose. Throwing oil, machine parts, tree bark and ocean water into a bowl and mixing it isn't "wrong" unless one is trying to bake a cake; neither can harming children be "wrong" unless it contradicts or detracts from the purpose inherent in the adult-child relationship. If one denies that humans have an objective purpose (Aristotlean "good", final cause), then everything is permissible.William J Murray
September 5, 2011
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DrBot: The OT law is only vague if you think it's edicts are age specific. That is, a male raping a female is rape no matter their ages. A male sodomizing another male is still sodomy no matter their ages. As far as following orders, do you really want to discover the consequences of such actions through experiment? We don't need to be personally burned to know that playing with fire is bad. We can learn from those who came before us. However, we probably all know people who were abused as children and can still see the effects. Blue_Savannah: right on the money. Since chemical reactions are amoral, and if we are nothing but bags of chemical reactions, everything we do is amoral. In that case, "we" don't really "do" anything. "We" quite literally react. Jean Paul Sartre was roundly criticized by other existentialists because he opposed Nazi Germany. Those atheists were being consistent in their beliefs. Sartre wasn't.snelldl
September 5, 2011
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Has God ever actually said that pedophilia is wrong? The Bible is a bit vague on the issue, particularly in the bits about Moses, and some of the stuff on marriage and rape. I'm not an atheist, but I don't have a direct line to God so I actually have no idea if God thinks it is wrong or not. The issue for me is much simpler. Why would anyone want to do something like this? Would you want to cut your own fingers off? Saying that atheism will lead to it as a natural consequence makes no sense UNLESS you see pedophilia as something desirable, yet prohibited. To me it sounds like the people on this thread, and the Rabbi in the OP, are talking about pedophilia as if it is something they would want to do if it wasn't immoral. Can any of you think of any reason why it might be a bad thing to do, in the absence of some authority just declaring it as wrong? Or to put it another way: "Why aren't you raping those children?" Answer: "I dunno, I was just following orders"DrBot
September 5, 2011
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This is the problem with atheism. If all life is just chemicals at the mercy of physics and without free will, then the pedophile is not immoral, he's just 'nature' acting the way his DNA forces him to act. So, the pedophile or rapist are no different than lightning...all can harm people and all are just chemicals at the mercy of physics and without free will. I'm just not gullible enough to be an atheist.Blue_Savannah
September 4, 2011
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"There is literally no right or wrong." Then please explain under which circumstances would the following be morally acceptable: (1) child molestation; (2) rape, and (3) torture. To theists, all of the above are morally repugnant. To a materialist atheist, they're the natural consequences of following where your selfish genes lead you.Barb
September 4, 2011
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Hmmm. It's legitimate to doubt any concept that would lead to one's ruin, because such concepts are usually objectively wrong. How about: One more drink won't kill me ... I am unlikely to get caught ... Traffic cops never patrol this stretch ... Hospitals and jails are chock full of people who accepted assumptions that lead to one or another kind of ruin. The smart people just doubt those assumptions, as you wisely did. What can we then infer about materialist atheism, if we generalize from experience?News
September 4, 2011
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Well, IMO there's a difference between admitting to yourself and denying to yourself that there is no morality under atheism (or materialism), and that is where one recognizes the cliff and faces the choice. You can do all sorts of concept-gerrymandering up to that point to rationalize all sorts of things, but when you're faced with the stark realization that your philosophy is necessarily amoral (as the "Maverick" did), then you have to make a choice that either everything is allowable, or it is not. That's one of the reasons I turned back from the cliff; I didn't care how absurd I thought belief in a god was, or what kind of grudge I held against it, or how superior to such "superstitious" thinking I thought I was, there are (to paraphrase Robert Duvall from "Secondhand Lions") some things a man must believe in, whether they are true or not, because to not believe in them leads to his inevitable ruin.William J Murray
September 4, 2011
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C'mon, William J. Murray. it's only farther than the edge of the cliff today. In the 1970s, UD News used to be friendly with atheists who were anti-abortion. There were plenty of them then. Few now. Back then we used to say that the current state of affairs was "farther than the edge of the cliff." Guess the Reb thinks it's time to start calling them on their history.News
September 4, 2011
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While in one sense admitting that there is no morality under atheism is a commendable adherence to intellectual honesty no matter where it leads, it's a shame that the "Maverick" allows his anti-theistic compulsion to direct him farther than the edge of the cliff. Most atheists (like many here) stay away from the edge simply by not pursuing the ramifications of their belief that far, and are content to sit farther back up the road, pointing towards the cliff and telling themselves and others "there is no cliff."William J Murray
September 4, 2011
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