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RDFish Brings the Entire Law Down Like a House of Cards

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Over the last several days I’ve been watching StephenB thrash RDFish in this post.

Several times SB has asked Fish this question:

Is a murderer a different kind of cause than accidental death or is it not?

Now obviously Fish is in a pickle, between the proverbial Scylla and Charybdis so to speak.  If he says that a murderer is in the same category of causation as accidental death, he will look like an idiot, because everyone knows they are not.  But if he says they are in different categories, then SB has him right where he wants him, because the next, obvious, question will be: what makes them different?  And the answer to that question is also obvious; death by murderer is caused by the act of an intelligent agent, and accidental death is not.  And inevitably that leads to this question:  Are there objective indicia that allow us to discern which is which?

Instead of admitting the obvious, Fish asserts:

You have failed to provide an objective method for discovering which arrangements of matter are “for a purpose”. There is no such method, which is why you cannot describe it.

There you have it.  Fish’s Axiom:  “There is no objective method for discovering which arrangements of matter are for a purpose.”

Wait a minute.  Wait a minute.  Isn’t it a corollary to Fish’s Axiom that the entire edifice of the law is built upon a house of cards?  And doesn’t Fish’s Axiom pull out the critical foundational card so that the entire structure of the law has come tumbling down in a twisted tangled heap?

Allow me to explain.  Almost every aspect of criminal law and much of civil law turns on the issue of intent, i.e., purpose.  The law treats accidents differently than intentional acts.  Duh.  But if Fish’s Axiom is true, then as a practical matter the distinction between purposeful (i.e., intentional) conduct and accidental conduct is meaningless.

Some years ago there was a case in which a spectator at a softball game (let’s call him “Bob”) became enraged at a call, marched out onto the field, and beat the umpire to a bloody pulp.  Naturally, the umpire was upset about this and decided to sue Bob.  But the umpire did not sue Bob for assault.  He sued him for negligence instead.  Why?  Easy.  Bob was not rich, and the umpire figured out pretty quickly that they only path to money was through Bob’s insurance company.  The umpire had a problem though.  Every insurance policy ever written has an exclusion for “intentional conduct.”  In other words, insurance companies cover you when you cause an injury by accident; for obvious reasons they don’t cover you if you cause the injury on purpose.

In a “strange bedfellows” incident, the umpire and Bob both agreed to say the whole incident was an accident, that Bob’s fists unintentionally and accidentally repeatedly made contact with the umpire’s face.  Remarkably, the jury went along, and a judgment against Bob was entered on that basis.  The umpire took the judgment to Bob’s insurance company and said, “I’ve got a judgment against your insured for an accidental injury.  Your policy covers accidental injuries.  Pay up.”  Now the insurance company decided it was not going to play along.  It brought a new lawsuit claiming that its policy exclusion for intentional conduct applied and it had no obligation to pay.  The court in that case agreed, holding that the conduct was obviously intentional and not accidental, even if both of the participants now said otherwise, and entered judgment for the insurance company.

What does all of this have to do with Fish’s Axiom?  Well, obviously if there is no objective method for discovering which arrangements of matter are for a purpose, then the second court was wrong to say that objectively Bob acted purposefully.  It gets worse.  In order to convict someone of murder, the prosecution has to prove objectively that the accused acted with the purpose of killing the victim.  In order to convict someone of robbery, the prosecution has to prove the accused acting with the purpose of depriving the victim of his property.  In order to . . .

You get the picture.  The law is saturated with “purpose talk.”  In almost every criminal trial that has ever gone to a judge or a jury from the dawn of legal procedure to this very day, “purpose” has been a critical issue.  But if Fish’s Axiom is right, if we can never objectively determine whether an agent acted for a purpose, the entire project has been one massive fraud.  Who knew?

Comments
William J Murray @ 119
Good grief, seversky, Read the thread first and then actually write something coherent.
I do. You should try it some time. Again, Zachriel’s original claim was:
There could certainly be disembodied intelligence, at least in principle, but we have no evidence of such.
Notthere is no...” but “We have no...”. I shouldn’t have to state the obvious but for data to be adduced as evidence to support a claim both the claim and the data must first be known. If you read Zachriel’s original claim it is quite clear that the possibility of disembodied intelligence is not being ruled out but that, as of this time, we have no evidence of such - which can be expanded to the claim that there is no known evidence of such without any change in meaning. This is just a transparent attempt to inflate a sophomoric debating-point into a logical “gotcha” that falls flat on its face. If you really wanted to land a glove on Zachriel’s argument the most effective thing would be to present evidence for the existence of disembodied intelligence. That you haven’t done so thus far speaks for itself.Seversky
October 18, 2015
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bornagain: So you lean heavily towards materialism (i.e. brain generating consciousness), to start with That is not our position. Our position is the brain is necessary, but perhaps not sufficient, for consciousness. bornagain: and then you waffle on materialism whenever you get cornered by the inherent incoherence of postulating ‘you’ are not real but are merely a neuronal illusion’? Again, that is not our position. Our position is that the self is not an illusion, but a sensation of the workings of the mind when it reflects on itself. Do you enjoy fighting your strawman?Zachriel
October 18, 2015
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"While the brain appears necessary, no one knows if it is sufficient." So you lean heavily towards materialism (i.e. brain generating consciousness), to start with and then you waffle on materialism whenever you get cornered by the inherent incoherence of postulating 'you' are not real but are merely a neuronal illusion'? Moreover, to repeat, as shown in quantum mechanics and NDEs, the brain is certainly NOT required for consciousness to exist, and as also explained halfway down post 121, the brain is grossly insufficient to ever adequately explain consciousness. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/rdfish-brings-the-entire-law-down-like-a-house-of-cards/#comment-583478 I know how you love to play stupid word games for hours and hours Zach, so, seeing as I have clearly made my point, I will let you chase your own tail in a circle and desist from feeding the troll (i.e. "you") any longer on this thread. The last word is all yours.bornagain
October 18, 2015
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bornagain: you believe your conscious mind comes from where exactly? There is no complete theory of consciousness. While the brain appears necessary, no one knows if it is sufficient.Zachriel
October 18, 2015
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Zachriel, and you believe your conscious mind comes from where exactly? Please be precise.bornagain
October 18, 2015
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bornagain: You have to clearly define a position in order to have it refuted Our position is that the self is not an illusion, but a sensation of the workings of the mind when it reflects on itself.Zachriel
October 18, 2015
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Zach, you have to clearly define a position in order to have it refuted. You have done no such thing. You merely denied that you hold onto strict materialism and left your semi non-materialistic definition of 'mind' hanging in a fog. So what? I don't care for word play or for those who stoop to word play. I refuted materialism which is the mainstream position of academia that you are trying to defend through your foggy haze of poor definition. And if you are not trying to defend materialism is a strict sense then welcome to Theism, or at least welcome to some form of 'mind' centered reality. As to your second claim "One has a sensation or experience of self. That doesn’t mean the self is an illusion. People have a sensation of their hand, but that doesn’t mean their hand doesn’t exist." And exactly who is this 'you' who is having a 'sensation of self' and a 'sensation of hand'? Moreover, does the hand know that the hand exists? It takes a 'mind' to know that self exists and that hand exists. i.e. No consciousness, no reality. For something to be ‘real’ to us personally we first have to be aware of it. In other words, if there is no conscious awareness of something then there can be nothing ‘real’ for us to perceive in the first place. i.e. Consciousness is a perquisite for something to be ‘real’ for us.
“No, I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.” Max Planck (1858–1947), the originator of quantum theory, The Observer, London, January 25, 1931 “Consciousness cannot be accounted for in physical terms. For consciousness is absolutely fundamental. It cannot be accounted for in terms of anything else.” (Schroedinger, Erwin. 1984. “General Scientific and Popular Papers,” in Collected Papers, Vol. 4. Vienna: Austrian Academy of Sciences. Friedr. Vieweg & Sohn, Braunschweig/Wiesbaden. p. 334.) “In any philosophy of reality that is not ultimately self-defeating or internally contradictory, mind – unlabeled as anything else, matter or spiritual – must be primary. What is “matter” and what is “conceptual” and what is “spiritual” can only be organized from mind. Mind controls what is perceived, how it is perceived, and how those perceptions are labeled and organized. Mind must be postulated as the unobserved observer, the uncaused cause simply to avoid a self-negating, self-conflicting worldview. It is the necessary postulate of all necessary postulates, because nothing else can come first. To say anything else comes first requires mind to consider and argue that case and then believe it to be true, demonstrating that without mind, you could not believe that mind is not primary in the first place.” – William J. Murray https://uncommondescent.com/neuroscience/more-reality-inside-our-heads-than-outside/#comment-583491
bornagain
October 18, 2015
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Zachriel:
Changing someone’s position in order to refute it, is called a strawman argument, an informal fallacy.
Then why do you do it all of the time?Virgil Cain
October 18, 2015
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bornagain: Your first sentence is poorly defined fluff Changing someone's position in order to refute it, is called a strawman argument, an informal fallacy. Not sure why you would admit to such. bornagain: as to your second sentence, “You” have sensations. “You” are NOT a sensation. One has a sensation or experience of self. That doesn't mean the self is an illusion. People have a sensation of their hand, but that doesn't mean their hand doesn't exist.Zachriel
October 18, 2015
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We didn’t make that claim.
You and Betty? Is that the "we" you are talking about?Virgil Cain
October 18, 2015
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Your first sentence is poorly defined fluff as to your second sentence, "You" have sensations. "You" are NOT a sensation. But the "we" of "you" cannot even write a sentence without referring to yourself in the plurality of "we", thus I can see how the entire concept of "I" and "You" would be lost on the "we" of "you". (If "you" even had a 'mind' for a concept of "I" to be lost in in the first place)bornagain
October 18, 2015
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bornagain: in your unsubstantiated claim that the material brain generates consciousness We didn't make that claim. However, the brain appears to be necessary for consciousness, if perhaps not sufficient. bornagain: ‘you’ really exist as a real person, becomes merely a fiction, i.e. an illusion. Rather it is a sensation.Zachriel
October 18, 2015
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Zach, (not that you care for the truth, but), in your unsubstantiated claim that the material brain generates consciousness, you have a gargantuan hole in your claim that undermines your entire materialistic/atheistic worldview: You see Zach, if your materialistic premises are true then the 'sense of self', the subjective knowledge that 'you' really exist as a real person, becomes merely a fiction, i.e. an illusion. This is not a minor problem for 'you' since, as Descartes pointed out, the fact that we really exist as real persons is the most sure thing we can ever know about reality.
David Chalmers on Consciousness (Descartes, Philosophical Zombies and the Hard Problem) – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK1Yo6VbRoo
Moreover, if your sense of self, and your free will, are merely illusions as you hold that they are, then why in blue blazes should I, or anyone else, ever hold your arguments for materialism to be coherent and true in the first place?
"What you’re doing is simply instantiating a self: the program run by your neurons which you feel is “you.”" Jerry Coyne The Confidence of Jerry Coyne - January 6, 2014 Excerpt: But then halfway through this peroration, we have as an aside the confession that yes, okay, it’s quite possible given materialist premises that “our sense of self is a neuronal illusion.” At which point the entire edifice suddenly looks terribly wobbly — because who, exactly, is doing all of this forging and shaping and purpose-creating if Jerry Coyne, as I understand him (and I assume he understands himself) quite possibly does not actually exist at all? The theme of his argument is the crucial importance of human agency under eliminative materialism, but if under materialist premises the actual agent is quite possibly a fiction, then who exactly is this I who “reads” and “learns” and “teaches,” and why in the universe’s name should my illusory self believe Coyne’s bold proclamation that his illusory self’s purposes are somehow “real” and worthy of devotion and pursuit? (Let alone that they’re morally significant: But more on that below.) Prometheus cannot be at once unbound and unreal; the human will cannot be simultaneously triumphant and imaginary. http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/01/06/the-confidence-of-jerry-coyne/?_r=0 Sam Harris's Free Will: The Medial Pre-Frontal Cortex Did It - Martin Cothran - November 9, 2012 Excerpt: There is something ironic about the position of thinkers like Harris on issues like this: they claim that their position is the result of the irresistible necessity of logic (in fact, they pride themselves on their logic). Their belief is the consequent, in a ground/consequent relation between their evidence and their conclusion. But their very stated position is that any mental state -- including their position on this issue -- is the effect of a physical, not logical cause. By their own logic, it isn't logic that demands their assent to the claim that free will is an illusion, but the prior chemical state of their brains. The only condition under which we could possibly find their argument convincing is if they are not true. The claim that free will is an illusion requires the possibility that minds have the freedom to assent to a logical argument, a freedom denied by the claim itself. It is an assent that must, in order to remain logical and not physiological, presume a perspective outside the physical order. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/11/sam_harriss_fre066221.html (1) rationality implies a thinker in control of thoughts. (2) under materialism a thinker is an effect caused by processes in the brain. (3) in order for materialism to ground rationality a thinker (an effect) must control processes in the brain (a cause). (1)&(2) (4) no effect can control its cause. Therefore materialism cannot ground rationality. per Box UD
In fact Zach, it is impossible for you to live your life as if materialism were true, (not that you care for truth anyway)
The Heretic - Who is Thomas Nagel and why are so many of his fellow academics condemning him? - March 25, 2013 Excerpt:,,,Fortunately, materialism is never translated into life as it’s lived. As colleagues and friends, husbands and mothers, wives and fathers, sons and daughters, materialists never put their money where their mouth is. Nobody thinks his daughter is just molecules in motion and nothing but; nobody thinks the Holocaust was evil, but only in a relative, provisional sense. A materialist who lived his life according to his professed convictions—understanding himself to have no moral agency at all, seeing his friends and enemies and family as genetically determined robots—wouldn’t just be a materialist: He’d be a psychopath. http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/heretic_707692.html?page=3 Darwin's Robots: When Evolutionary Materialists Admit that Their Own Worldview Fails - Nancy Pearcey - April 23, 2015 Excerpt: Even materialists often admit that, in practice, it is impossible for humans to live any other way. One philosopher jokes that if people deny free will, then when ordering at a restaurant they should say, "Just bring me whatever the laws of nature have determined I will get." An especially clear example is Galen Strawson, a philosopher who states with great bravado, "The impossibility of free will ... can be proved with complete certainty." Yet in an interview, Strawson admits that, in practice, no one accepts his deterministic view. "To be honest, I can't really accept it myself," he says. "I can't really live with this fact from day to day. Can you, really?",,, In What Science Offers the Humanities, Edward Slingerland, identifies himself as an unabashed materialist and reductionist. Slingerland argues that Darwinian materialism leads logically to the conclusion that humans are robots -- that our sense of having a will or self or consciousness is an illusion. Yet, he admits, it is an illusion we find impossible to shake. No one "can help acting like and at some level really feeling that he or she is free." We are "constitutionally incapable of experiencing ourselves and other conspecifics [humans] as robots." One section in his book is even titled "We Are Robots Designed Not to Believe That We Are Robots.",,, When I teach these concepts in the classroom, an example my students find especially poignant is Flesh and Machines by Rodney Brooks, professor emeritus at MIT. Brooks writes that a human being is nothing but a machine -- a "big bag of skin full of biomolecules" interacting by the laws of physics and chemistry. In ordinary life, of course, it is difficult to actually see people that way. But, he says, "When I look at my children, I can, when I force myself, ... see that they are machines." Is that how he treats them, though? Of course not: "That is not how I treat them.... I interact with them on an entirely different level. They have my unconditional love, the furthest one might be able to get from rational analysis." Certainly if what counts as "rational" is a materialist worldview in which humans are machines, then loving your children is irrational. It has no basis within Brooks's worldview. It sticks out of his box. How does he reconcile such a heart-wrenching cognitive dissonance? He doesn't. Brooks ends by saying, "I maintain two sets of inconsistent beliefs." He has given up on any attempt to reconcile his theory with his experience. He has abandoned all hope for a unified, logically consistent worldview. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/04/when_evolutiona095451.html [Nancy Pearcey] When Reality Clashes with Your Atheistic Worldview - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0Kpn3HBMiQ Existential Argument against Atheism - November 1, 2013 by Jason Petersen 1. If a worldview is true then you should be able to live consistently with that worldview. 2. Atheists are unable to live consistently with their worldview. 3. If you can’t live consistently with an atheist worldview then the worldview does not reflect reality. 4. If a worldview does not reflect reality then that worldview is a delusion. 5. If atheism is a delusion then atheism cannot be true. Conclusion: Atheism is false. http://answersforhope.com/existential-argument-atheism/
Most people realize that if you can't realistically live as if materialism is true then materialism must be false. But alas, it seems even this simple step in rudimentary logic is beyond the mental capacity of most hardcore atheists. I use to think such stubbornness to acknowledge even the simplest of facts was purposeful deceit on the materialists part, but recently mental impairment in problem solving was shown to be linked to atheism. Thus, now atheism, at least in so far as it is truly held, is shown to be a form of mental illness.
"Shutting down part of the brain that's responsible for problem solving" causes atheism. Shutting down part of brain changes views on God, immigrants: study - October 14, 2015 Excerpt: Temporarily shutting down part of the brain that's responsible for problem solving can suppress your religious views and prejudices toward immigrants, a new study has found. Researchers out of the University of York, in England, and the University of California, Los Angeles, used magnetic energy to safely and temporarily shut down specific regions of the brain of some study participants. When the posterior medial frontal cortex -- a part of the brain located near the surface and roughly a few inches up from the forehead -- was shut down, participants reported a decrease in their religious convictions and were more positive toward new immigrants critical of their country. http://www.ctvnews.ca/health/shutting-down-part-of-brain-changes-views-on-god-immigrants-study-1.2609612
bornagain
October 18, 2015
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Box: The fascinating possibility that random disturbances in the electromagnetic field of a dying brain explains it all and dead is indeed just dead. Brain activity is embodied by any reasonable definition. sean samis: W: So your inability to find evidence is all you have to go on? Heh. William J Murray: A systematic search is wholly insufficient to answer that question, Z. An exhaustive search is what is required. A systematic search is sufficient to constitute reasonable support, certainly more than "Is not!"Zachriel
October 18, 2015
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The evidence from quantum mechanics that consciousness precedes material reality is overwhelming. I would even dare say that the evidence is now conclusive:
A Short Survey Of Quantum Mechanics and Consciousness Excerpt: Putting all the lines of evidence together the argument for God from consciousness can now be framed like this: 1. Consciousness either preceded all of material reality or is a ‘epi-phenomena’ of material reality. 2. If consciousness is a ‘epi-phenomena’ of material reality then consciousness will be found to have no special position within material reality. Whereas conversely, if consciousness precedes material reality then consciousness will be found to have a special position within material reality. 3. Consciousness is found to have a special, even central, position within material reality. 4. Therefore, consciousness is found to precede material reality. Four intersecting lines of experimental evidence from quantum mechanics that shows that consciousness precedes material reality (Wigner’s Quantum Symmetries, Wheeler’s Delayed Choice, Leggett’s Inequalities, Quantum Zeno effect) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uLcJUgLm1vwFyjwcbwuYP0bK6k8mXy-of990HudzduI/edit
As well, the evidence from Near Death Experiences that our consciousness survives the death of our temporal bodies is also overwhelming. I would even dare say that the evidence is now conclusive. In fact we have far more observational evidence for survival beyond death than we have observational evidence for Darwinian evolution ever creating functional complexity/information:
Near-Death Experiences: Putting a Darwinist's Evidentiary Standards to the Test - Dr. Michael Egnor - October 15, 2012 Excerpt: Indeed, about 20 percent of NDE's are corroborated, which means that there are independent ways of checking about the veracity of the experience. The patients knew of things that they could not have known except by extraordinary perception -- such as describing details of surgery that they watched while their heart was stopped, etc. Additionally, many NDE's have a vividness and a sense of intense reality that one does not generally encounter in dreams or hallucinations.,,, The most "parsimonious" explanation -- the simplest scientific explanation -- is that the (Near Death) experience was real. Tens of millions of people have had such experiences. That is tens of millions of more times than we have observed the origin of species , (or the origin of life, or the origin of a protein/gene, or a molecular machine), which is never.,,, The materialist reaction, in short, is unscientific and close-minded. NDE's show fellows like Coyne at their sneering unscientific irrational worst. Somebody finds a crushed fragment of a fossil and it's earth-shaking evidence. Tens of million of people have life-changing spiritual experiences and it's all a big yawn. Note: Dr. Egnor is professor and vice-chairman of neurosurgery at the State University of New York at Stony Brook. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/10/near_death_expe_1065301.html
Moreover, as a backdrop that provides a stark contrast to this evidence for consciousness preceding material reality and surviving the death of our temporal bodies, I remind you guys that materialists/atheists have not the least bit of empirical evidence explaining how consciousness can possibly 'emerge' from a material basis:
‘But the hard problem of consciousness is so hard that I can’t even imagine what kind of empirical findings would satisfactorily solve it. In fact, I don’t even know what kind of discovery would get us to first base, not to mention a home run.’ David Barash – Materialist/Atheist - evolutionary biologist and professor of psychology at the ­University of Washington
Massachusetts Institute of Technology neuroscientist Sebastian Seung makes this clear in his book “Connectome,” saying:
“Every day we recall the past, perceive the present and imagine the future. How do our brains accomplish these feats? It’s safe to say that nobody really knows.”
There is simply no direct evidence that anything material is capable of generating consciousness. As Rutgers University philosopher Jerry Fodor says,
"Nobody has the slightest idea how anything material could be conscious. Nobody even knows what it would be like to have the slightest idea about how anything material could be conscious. So much for the philosophy of consciousness. Regardless of our knowledge of the structure of the brain, no one has any idea how the brain could possibly generate conscious experience."
As Nobel neurophysiologist Roger Sperry wrote,
"Those centermost processes of the brain with which consciousness is presumably associated are simply not understood. They are so far beyond our comprehension at present that no one I know of has been able even to imagine their nature."
From modern physics, Nobel prize-winner Eugene Wigner agreed:
"We have at present not even the vaguest idea how to connect the physio-chemical processes with the state of mind."
Contemporary physicist Nick Herbert states,
"Science's biggest mystery is the nature of consciousness. It is not that we possess bad or imperfect theories of human awareness; we simply have no such theories at all. About all we know about consciousness is that it has something to do with the head, rather than the foot."
Physician and author Larry Dossey wrote:
"No experiment has ever demonstrated the genesis of consciousness from matter. One might as well believe that rabbits emerge from magicians' hats. Yet this vaporous possibility, this neuro-mythology, has enchanted generations of gullible scientists, in spite of the fact that there is not a shred of direct evidence to support it."
Thus, with such a sheer poverty of any substantiating evidence for the materialist/atheist's claim that consciousness emerges from a material basis, and with such an overwhelming abundance of evidence supporting the Theist's claim that consciousness precedes material reality and also supporting the claim that our eternal souls survive death, the most reasonable conclusion, indeed the ONLY conclusion scientifically available to us right now, as far as empirical evidence itself is concerned, is that the Theistic position is the correct position and atheism is false. But alas, atheists have never believed in their preferred nihilistic worldview based on reason and evidence anyway, but have instead primarily based their nihilistic beliefs on their emotions and their fertile imaginations.
Study explores whether atheism is rooted in reason or emotion - Jan. 2015 Excerpt: "A new set of studies in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology finds that atheists and agnostics report anger toward God either in the past or anger focused on a hypothetical image of what they imagine God must be like. Julie Exline, a psychologist at Case Western Reserve University and the lead author of this recent study, has examined other data on this subject with identical results. Exline explains that her interest was first piqued when an early study of anger toward God revealed a counterintuitive finding: Those who reported no belief in God reported more grudges toward him than believers." https://uncommondescent.com/just-for-fun/fun-study-explores-whether-atheism-is-rooted-in-reason-or-emotion/
In fact, atheists are found to live in irrational denial of their intuitive ability to see Design in nature:
Design Thinking Is Hardwired in the Human Brain. How Come? - October 17, 2012 Excerpt: "Even Professional Scientists Are Compelled to See Purpose in Nature, Psychologists Find." The article describes a test by Boston University's psychology department, in which researchers found that "despite years of scientific training, even professional chemists, geologists, and physicists from major universities such as Harvard, MIT, and Yale cannot escape a deep-seated belief that natural phenomena exist for a purpose" ,,, Most interesting, though, are the questions begged by this research. One is whether it is even possible to purge teleology from explanation. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/10/design_thinking065381.html Infants 'have natural belief in God' - July 26, 2008 Excerpt: INFANTS are hard-wired to believe in God, and atheism has to be learned, according to an Oxford University psychologist. Dr Olivera Petrovich told a University of Western Sydney conference on the psychology of religion that even preschool children constructed theological concepts as part of their understanding of the physical world. Pyschologists have debated whether belief in God or atheism was the natural human state. According to Dr Petrovich, an expert in psychology of religion, belief in God is not taught but develops naturally. She told The Age yesterday that belief in God emerged as a result of other psychological development connected with understanding causation. It was hard-wired into the human psyche, but it was important not to build too much into the concept of God. "It's the concept of God as creator, primarily," she said. Dr Petrovich said her findings were based on several studies, particularly one of Japanese children aged four to six, and another of 400 British children aged five to seven from seven different faiths. "Atheism is definitely an acquired position," she said. http://www.theage.com.au/national/infants-have-natural-belief-in-god-20080725-3l3b.html
Verse and Music:
Revelation 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." Apocalypitca - Nothing Else Matters - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSMXMv0noY4
bornagain
October 17, 2015
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Sean Samis said:
I don’t know of any, neither does Z. and neither (apparently) do you. Z’s assertion is proved: we don’t know of any evidence that disembodied intelligence exists.
If Z's assertion was only that he wasn't aware of any such evidence, I wouldn't have said a word. Read the entire exchange - I asked him if his assertion wouldn't be more properly phrased as him simply not personally being aware of any such evidence. He also moved the goalpost from "evidence" to "scientific evidence", and apparently entirely abandoned his by proxy assertion about "shared and uniform experience".
When your assertion is that something is not known, the inability to find evidence of that something is all the evidence you need.
ROFLMAO! We should start a thread of atheist/materialist maxims that pass for logic in their world. This is a beaut.William J Murray
October 17, 2015
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Zachriel said;
A systematic search for scientific evidence on the subject is precisely what is required to answer that question.
A systematic search is wholly insufficient to answer that question, Z. An exhaustive search is what is required. And then, an exhaustive reading of all material that might remotely be considered such evidence would be required; and then if any evidence is found that might support the hypothesis, an argument must be prepared to rebut the possibility that it does support the hypothesis. We all know you cannot support your assertion as it stands. Nobody can support a claim that is a universal negative about the non-existence of a particular thing (in this case, evidence for non-embodied intelligence) unless that thing is a logical or physical impossibility, and you've already admitted it was possible. The best you can do is state that you are personally unaware of any such evidence. Anything beyond that is irrational rhetoric. Seversky said:
In other words, the claim was not that disembodied intelligence doesn’t exist but that he, she or it does not know of any evidence that it doesn’t exist – a rather different claim.
Good grief, seversky, Read the thread first and then actually write something coherent. Z's claim is that there is no evidence of non-embodied evidence. Z has agreed to this as being what Z's claim is in this thread. I've already suggested that Z dial back his universal negative claim to one of simply not being aware of any such evidence. Z stubbornly refuses to do so - I suspect because Z is fond of the rhetorical value of the original claim. My point here is not to argue that there is evidence for non-embodied intelligence, but rather to point out that Z is making entirely unsupported assertions for their rhetorical value.William J Murray
October 17, 2015
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Inspired by Zachriel's search (see #115) I did a search on nature.com for articles on Near-Death-Experiences. Obviously NDE research could be all-decisive. What is at stake here? EVERYTHING. Who we are. Our future. The NDE witness' accounts are a source of hope for many. However there are people who don't want there to be a God. Who don't want the universe to be like that. Number 1 on Google search results list, the following article; excerpt:
Mark Stokes: Can neuroscience shed light on one of life's biggest mysteries - death? In a new study just published in PNAS, researchers observed a surge of brain activity just moments before death. This raises the fascinating possibility that they have identified the neural basis for near death experiences. [my emphasis]
F-A-S-C-I-N-A-T-I-N-G. I mean ... really? The fascinating possibility that random disturbances in the electromagnetic field of a dying brain explains it all and dead is indeed just dead. The fascinating possibility that we do not return to our lost loved ones. The fascinating possibility that there is no justice, no God, that there is nothing but empty indifferent blackness after all. Fascinating ...
Mark Stokes: First, to put this research into context, death-related brain activity was examined in rats, not humans. For obvious reasons, it is easier to study the death process in animals rather than humans.
What is wrong with these people?Box
October 17, 2015
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StephenB @100:
Of course. You would know that it was not produced by natural causes. Right?
That’s what I wrote.
You would know that nature cannot construct or assemble objects in that way. Right?
That’s what I wrote.
Can you name or describe a man-made artifact that is not purposefully arranged matter? I don’t think so.
Footprints. A midden. Debris. I don’t need to know what intent or purpose a maker had to be able to see that an artifact is so constructed that it is very likely to be man-made.
It is not necessary to know what the purpose was in order to conclude that a purpose was involved.
Doesn’t matter; it is not necessary to think that it had a purpose to conclude it was constructed or assembled by humans.
ID’s inference is an inference to the best explanation. Given an object, you conclude that it was produced either by nature or an intelligent agent based on observed patterns. It is called “abductive reasoning.” You have already indicated that you can, in some cases, recognize those things that were produced by an intelligent agent, which means that you had to rule out the prospect that it was the result of natural causes.
No, it’s not. Inference of design is only a “best explanation” if the “creator” is known, or is probably a member of a known group of creatures capable of creating the artifact. Inference of design by a wholly unknown and novel creator (such as an ET, a deity, or a disembodied intelligence) is always a “last resort explanation”. So far, we’ve never needed that last resort to explain anything. sean s.sean samis
October 17, 2015
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William J Murray @96:
Like many others, Sean Samis will dance, hand-wave, obfuscate, and self-deceive in order to avoid the obvious conclusion that we can, at least in some cases, be confident that a thing was intentionally designed by an intelligent agent, regardless of if we know or believe a human was involved, and that at least in some cases, there is an obvious difference between “natural causes” and “intentionally designed”.
William J Murray will dance, hand-wave, obfuscate, and self-deceive in order to avoid the obvious conclusion that I agree that we can, at least in some cases, be confident that a thing was intentionally designed by a human being. But so far there is no case where we can be confident that a non-human intelligent agent is needed to explain some thing we are aware of. William J Murray will dance, hand-wave, obfuscate, and self-deceive in order to avoid the obvious conclusion that I agree that, at least in some cases, there is an obvious difference between “natural causes” and “intentionally designed”.
But, admitting this obvious fact swings the door wide open to a room Sean Samis and others of his ilk simply do not want to have to deal with.
I have an ilk? Nobody ever tells me these things! We should have a party! BYOB.
If we found certain kinds of phenomena on other planets man has never before visited, we would be confident they were intentionally designed by an intelligent agency.
... but only after we’d confidently eliminated the possibility of natural causes. Sometimes that would be easy, sometimes it would not and we’d have to resist the temptation to leap to a “design” conclusion because we all just WANT there to be the first to recognize a non-human intelligence.
Insisting on using the term “man made” is simply Sean Samis’ way of refusing to honestly consider the argument actually being made. Such terms are self-imposed ideological blinkers; as long as he can focus his sight on the term “man-made”, he doesn’t have to account for any alternative roadways that might take him off his path.
Insisting on using the term “intelligent agent” is simply William J Murray’s way of refusing to honestly consider the argument actually being made. Such terms are self-imposed ideological blinkers; as long as he can focus his sight on the term “intelligent agent” then he doesn’t have to account for the total absence of any evidence of alternative roadways, which leaves no way to his desired path.
As soon as he admits that we can be confident, at least in some cases, that a thing was intentionally designed by an intelligence whether or not that intelligence was a human, the door is open and the game is lost.
As soon as WJM admits that we can be confident in every case that we know of that an intentionally designed thing was designed by humans, the door is closed and his game is lost. Until we know of another intelligent agent, or have positively and simultaneously excluded both human activity and natural causes, the only intelligence we know of SO FAR is humanity. Everything else, to the best of our knowledge is due to natural causes. @103: Like you, I’ll take my response to this thread: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/lydia-mcgrew-nails-it-does-being-an-atheist-interfere-with-being-moral/ 104:
If one cannot admit that (1) human design is a case of intelligent design and (2) intelligent design could be, at least in some cases, recognized as such even if we are fairly sure that humans were not involved, then there is just no room for honest, meaningful debate.
1. Human design is a case of intelligent design. 2. Intelligent design could be, at least in theory, recognized as such even if we are fairly sure that humans were not involved. 3. There are no known, bona fide cases in which non-human intelligent design has been demonstrated or necessitated. The whole argument between Zachriel and WJM is like a bad middle school drama: Z: We have no evidence that disembodied intelligence exists. W: Prove it! Z: Prove what? That we have no evidence...? W: Yes. Prove it! Z: Do you know of any evidence? W: That’s not my job. Prove your bald assertion! S: Well, if you’re too lazy to provide some evidence, then there’s no reason to go further. I don’t know of any, neither does Z. and neither (apparently) do you. Z’s assertion is proved: we don’t know of any evidence that disembodied intelligence exists. W: So your inability to find evidence is all you have to go on? S: When your assertion is that something is not known, the inability to find evidence of that something is all the evidence you need. sean s.sean samis
October 17, 2015
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William J Murray: So here you’re admitting that your assertion is entirely based upon your personal inability to find any scientific research A systematic search for scientific evidence on the subject is precisely what is required to answer that question. The nice thing is that you can verify the results yourself! Let's try the journal Nature. http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=site%3Anature.com+%22disembodied+intelligence%22&l=1Zachriel
October 17, 2015
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William J Murray @ 113
Of course, rational people that cannot find a thing do not jump to the irrational conclusion that the thing doesn’t exist, and they certainly do not assert as a fact that a thing doesn’t exist just because it doesn’t show up in a google search. But then, that’s about the level of logical rigor I’ve come to expect from Z.
Congratulations, WJM, you’ve scored a fine debating point. Zachriel has not provided evidence to support the claim that disembodied intelligence doesn’t exist. That doesn’t necessarily mean the contrary is true of course but you’re right. Except you’re not. Zachriel’s original claim was
There could certainly be disembodied intelligence, at least in principle, but we have no evidence of such.
In other words, the claim was not that disembodied intelligence doesn’t exist but that he, she or it does not know of any evidence that it doesn’t exist - a rather different claim. You’re right that Zachriel has been unable to prove what they don’t know but then I know of no way to prove what I don’t know or, indeed, for anyone to prove that they don’t know something. If you know of some way to prove what you don’t know then please provide it. Regardless, the outcome of all this logic-chopping seems to be that position is the same as when it all started: the question of disembodied intelligence is still undecided. Unless you know something we don’t, of course.Seversky
October 17, 2015
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Z said:
The claim concerns the lack of scientific evidence for disembodied intelligence. A systematic search for scientific evidence on the subject is precisely what is required to answer that question.
I see. So here you're admitting that your assertion is entirely based upon your personal inability to find any scientific research via a google search that supports the disembodied intelligence hypothesis. Of course, rational people that cannot find a thing do not jump to the irrational conclusion that the thing doesn't exist, and they certainly do not assert as a fact that a thing doesn't exist just because it doesn't show up in a google search. But then, that's about the level of logical rigor I've come to expect from Z.William J Murray
October 17, 2015
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BA @ 110 Hahamike1962
October 17, 2015
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William J Murray: Your response to being called out for a literature bluff is another literature bluff? The claim concerns the lack of scientific evidence for disembodied intelligence. A systematic search for scientific evidence on the subject is precisely what is required to answer that question.Zachriel
October 17, 2015
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"Please be specific and show your work." Here is the supposedly irrefutable evidence that provides all the proof that the typical internet atheist ever needs in order to believe without any doubt whatsoever that the unbelievably complex human brain 'randomly' evolved from some chimp-like brain: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ci9jfMvoLb4bornagain
October 17, 2015
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I'd like to know: what kind of evolution can produce a human brain from a chimp-like brain? Please be specific and show your work.mike1962
October 17, 2015
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Zachriel chokes, again:
You pointed out that humans make complex things (dFSCI, CPSD, FSCO/I, FIIRDS, bCSI), and therefore complex things are made by intelligent agents.
Except CSI and all of its derivatives are much more than mere complexity.
However, evolution can also produce complex things.
What kind of evolution can produce complex things? Please be specific and show your work- although it is a given that you won't do either of those.Virgil Cain
October 17, 2015
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Z said:
The Black Swan metaphor refers to the surprise of finding a black swan based on prior knowledge. Human knowledge is somewhat easier to search nowadays than the globe was in the 16th century when the metaphor became popular.
Then it should be that much easier for you to support your assertion with - you know - actual specific references and quotes.
You can pretend to be blind, but it’s not convincing.
I can only pretend to be blind to something if you've actually put something on the table for me to look at; so far, you've provided nothing but assertions, literature bluffs and hand-waving.
A search of various scientific and scholarly databases for “disembodied intelligence” (including specific journals, such as Nature, Science, Neuroscience) gives us many non-relevant returns. Some refer to artificial intelligence, which concern the fact that computers don’t have biological bodies with all their attendant sensations. Others are non-scientific papers, such as those found in philosophical, literary, or theological sources. None of the references appear to involve scientific research.
Your response to being called out for a literature bluff is another literature bluff? Once again, please provide references, quotes, and a short summary/synopsis that supports your assertion that there is no evidence for disembodied intelligence.
This provides a reasonable overview. However, it is quite possible something was missed. If you have anything to add beyond waving your hands, please feel free to enlighten us.
A reiterated literature bluff is not a "reasonable overview". You have provided zero support for your assertion, and continue to do nothing but hand-wave, double-down on literature bluffs and attempt to shift the burden to others. If you cannot support your assertion, the proper thing to do is retract it and replace it with a more reasonable, supportable assertion.William J Murray
October 17, 2015
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William J Murray: “White swan” meant “scientific evidence for a embodied intelligence”, and “black swan” meant “scientific evidence for non-embodied intelligence”. The Black Swan metaphor refers to the surprise of finding a black swan based on prior knowledge. Human knowledge is somewhat easier to search nowadays than the globe was in the 16th century when the metaphor became popular. William J Murray: It’s not my job You can pretend to be blind, but it's not convincing. A search of various scientific and scholarly databases for "disembodied intelligence" (including specific journals, such as Nature, Science, Neuroscience) gives us many non-relevant returns. Some refer to artificial intelligence, which concern the fact that computers don't have biological bodies with all their attendant sensations. Others are non-scientific papers, such as those found in philosophical, literary, or theological sources. None of the references appear to involve scientific research. This provides a reasonable overview. However, it is quite possible something was missed. If you have anything to add beyond waving your hands, please feel free to enlighten us. kairosfocus: I did in fact outline highly relevant evidence regarding the demonstrated nature of computation and the limits of associated blind You pointed out that humans make complex things (dFSCI, CPSD, FSCO/I, FIIRDS, bCSI), and therefore complex things are made by intelligent agents. However, evolution can also produce complex things.Zachriel
October 17, 2015
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