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RDFish Brings the Entire Law Down Like a House of Cards

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Over the last several days I’ve been watching StephenB thrash RDFish in this post.

Several times SB has asked Fish this question:

Is a murderer a different kind of cause than accidental death or is it not?

Now obviously Fish is in a pickle, between the proverbial Scylla and Charybdis so to speak.  If he says that a murderer is in the same category of causation as accidental death, he will look like an idiot, because everyone knows they are not.  But if he says they are in different categories, then SB has him right where he wants him, because the next, obvious, question will be: what makes them different?  And the answer to that question is also obvious; death by murderer is caused by the act of an intelligent agent, and accidental death is not.  And inevitably that leads to this question:  Are there objective indicia that allow us to discern which is which?

Instead of admitting the obvious, Fish asserts:

You have failed to provide an objective method for discovering which arrangements of matter are “for a purpose”. There is no such method, which is why you cannot describe it.

There you have it.  Fish’s Axiom:  “There is no objective method for discovering which arrangements of matter are for a purpose.”

Wait a minute.  Wait a minute.  Isn’t it a corollary to Fish’s Axiom that the entire edifice of the law is built upon a house of cards?  And doesn’t Fish’s Axiom pull out the critical foundational card so that the entire structure of the law has come tumbling down in a twisted tangled heap?

Allow me to explain.  Almost every aspect of criminal law and much of civil law turns on the issue of intent, i.e., purpose.  The law treats accidents differently than intentional acts.  Duh.  But if Fish’s Axiom is true, then as a practical matter the distinction between purposeful (i.e., intentional) conduct and accidental conduct is meaningless.

Some years ago there was a case in which a spectator at a softball game (let’s call him “Bob”) became enraged at a call, marched out onto the field, and beat the umpire to a bloody pulp.  Naturally, the umpire was upset about this and decided to sue Bob.  But the umpire did not sue Bob for assault.  He sued him for negligence instead.  Why?  Easy.  Bob was not rich, and the umpire figured out pretty quickly that they only path to money was through Bob’s insurance company.  The umpire had a problem though.  Every insurance policy ever written has an exclusion for “intentional conduct.”  In other words, insurance companies cover you when you cause an injury by accident; for obvious reasons they don’t cover you if you cause the injury on purpose.

In a “strange bedfellows” incident, the umpire and Bob both agreed to say the whole incident was an accident, that Bob’s fists unintentionally and accidentally repeatedly made contact with the umpire’s face.  Remarkably, the jury went along, and a judgment against Bob was entered on that basis.  The umpire took the judgment to Bob’s insurance company and said, “I’ve got a judgment against your insured for an accidental injury.  Your policy covers accidental injuries.  Pay up.”  Now the insurance company decided it was not going to play along.  It brought a new lawsuit claiming that its policy exclusion for intentional conduct applied and it had no obligation to pay.  The court in that case agreed, holding that the conduct was obviously intentional and not accidental, even if both of the participants now said otherwise, and entered judgment for the insurance company.

What does all of this have to do with Fish’s Axiom?  Well, obviously if there is no objective method for discovering which arrangements of matter are for a purpose, then the second court was wrong to say that objectively Bob acted purposefully.  It gets worse.  In order to convict someone of murder, the prosecution has to prove objectively that the accused acted with the purpose of killing the victim.  In order to convict someone of robbery, the prosecution has to prove the accused acting with the purpose of depriving the victim of his property.  In order to . . .

You get the picture.  The law is saturated with “purpose talk.”  In almost every criminal trial that has ever gone to a judge or a jury from the dawn of legal procedure to this very day, “purpose” has been a critical issue.  But if Fish’s Axiom is right, if we can never objectively determine whether an agent acted for a purpose, the entire project has been one massive fraud.  Who knew?

Comments
StephenB @74:
Can you differentiate between the intelligent agentsthat [sic] created the artifacts of ancient Pompei [sic] and the volcano that buried them?
Can I differentiate between human beings and volcanoes? Yes. sean s.sean samis
October 15, 2015
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sean samis, you don't understand the issue. Let me help you out with another example: Can you differentiate between the intelligent agentsthat created the artifacts of ancient Pompei and the volcano that buried them?StephenB
October 14, 2015
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I apologize if I missed something in the 70+ comments to this OP, but I’m gonna take my shot at it. The OP begins with:
Over the last several days I’ve been watching StephenB thrash RDFish in this post. [www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/new-atheism-not-a-cult-but-a-religion/] Several times SB has asked Fish this question:
Is a murderer a different kind of cause than accidental death or is it not?
Now obviously Fish is in a pickle, between the proverbial Scylla and Charybdis so to speak. If he says that a murderer is in the same category of causation as accidental death, he will look like an idiot, because everyone knows they are not. But if he says they are in different categories, then SB has him right where he wants him, because the next, obvious, question will be: what makes them different? And the answer to that question is also obvious; death by murderer is caused by the act of an intelligent agent, and accidental death is not. And inevitably that leads to this question: Are there objective indicia that allow us to discern which is which?
What makes “murder” a categorically different cause of death from “accident”? Generally:
Murder; n. the killing of a human being by a sane person, with intent, malice aforethought (prior intention to kill the particular victim or anyone who gets in the way) and with no legal excuse or authority. dictionary.law.com/default.aspx?selected=1303#ixzz3oZaakrhH
If some death has been shown to be a “murder” then a means of murder has been identified. A death in which the cause cannot be identified will not likely be regarded as a “murder” (although it may be ruled suspicious). Further, in a murder, the means must be something that is shown to not be unintentional. For example, death by gunshot is not necessarily “murder”; accidental shootings happen frequently. Please note that a death may be found to be a murder even if the murderer is never identified. At a later trial, a fact-finder may rule the death “accidental”. Until a trial, a finding of murder is merely a provisional conclusion a competent person arrived at based on the evidence they have available to them. Regarding: “Are there objective indicia that allow us to discern which is which?; that is the more difficult question. The answer is “sometimes.” The first question is: have we established the cause of death? If not, then we are probably going to be unable to discern a murder. The second question is: is there evidence that the cause was “natural” or “accidental”? If these are regarded as improbable, then they are indicia of murder; and these almost certainly are objective indicia (though not always). Then we get to the hard stuff; assuming we have identified a suspect: Was the actor sane at the time they acted? Did the actor have intent? Did the actor act with malice or forethought? Did the actor lack a legal excuse or authority? If a fact-finder answers any of these with a “No.” then something other than murder is found. Of those 4 elements, only the last one can usually be objectively known. Whether anyone is sane is less than certain. There are persons who are obviously insane, but there are also marginal cases where the conclusion is often disputed; it is not really objective unless they are manifestly insane. At then end of the day, the law normally presumes sanity unless evidence to the contrary is shown; so a finding of sanity is usually not objective but presumptive. Whether anyone was sane at some specific point in the past (at the time of the killing) is dicier. Fact-finders can make reasonable inferences but those can be challenged in some extreme circumstances. Again, a finding of sanity is usually not objective but presumptive. Malice can only be inferred. It cannot be observed even in the present moment, much less in the past. It cannot be objectively known. We can decide it seems reasonable to infer it was there, but that is merely a subjective valuation. Malice cannot be observed. Malice can be experienced in one’s self, but it cannot be observed in others. Only the indicia of malice can be observed, and the indicia of malice can be faked or concealed. So their presence is not an objective indicator of malice. Forethought also can only be inferred unless there is evidence of premeditation (such as evidence of preparation for the killing or it’s concealment). RDFish may have been in a pickle, but only if RDFish didn’t go to Law School (or did poorly there). sean s.sean samis
October 14, 2015
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Box: Scientific explanations are not possible without conscious intelligence. Saying there's no scientific explanation of conscious intelligence doesn't equate to saying there is no such thing as conscious intelligence. In any case, that doesn’t get us to evidence of disembodied conscious intelligence. (Computers can propose and test hypotheses.)Zachriel
October 13, 2015
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Z: Just pointed out that there is currently no scientific explanation of conscious intelligence.
Scientific explanations are not possible without conscious intelligence. Blind particles in motion are not interested in science. Any rational inquiry presupposes conscious intelligence. Why do we have to explain this? These are testing times.Box
October 13, 2015
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LarTanner:
If physio-chemical processes are in principle incapable of producing “a real code,” then there can be no demonstration.
And your position fails.
Not sure of your point.
Matter in motion cannot account for information, yet information exists. Your position fails.Virgil Cain
October 13, 2015
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Virgil Cain
there is a $3.1 million award for anyone who can demonstrate they can.
If physio-chemical processes are in principle incapable of producing “a real code,” then there can be no demonstration.
Information is neither matter nor energy.
OK. Not sure of your point.LarTanner
October 13, 2015
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Zachriel:
Just pointed out that there is currently no scientific explanation of conscious intelligence.
There is currently no scientific explanation for the origin of life. there is currently no scientific explanation for the existence of humans. The list for which there is currently no scientific explanation for is very long and yet these things exist.Virgil Cain
October 13, 2015
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kairosfocus: questionable promissory note Didn't make any promises. Just pointed out that there is currently no scientific explanation of conscious intelligence. That doesn’t get us to evidence of disembodied conscious intelligence. William J Murray: This is just another case of someone with an ideologically-committed position reiterating unsupported, purely rhetorical assertions long after their game has been exposed, as if continuing to reiterate = actually providing support for their blanket assertions. You've had ample opportunity to provide the evidence you apparently believe exists. We're more than willing to be enlightened.Zachriel
October 13, 2015
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LarTanner:
(1) Physio-chemical processes are in principle incapable of producing “a real code” such as genetic code.
Exactly so. there is a $3.1 million award for anyone who can demonstrate they can.
(2) This incapability constitutes evidence of a “reality beyond matter in motion,” since some other force must have produced genetic code if physio-chemical processes alone were not up to the task.
Information is neither matter nor energy.Virgil Cain
October 13, 2015
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Virgil,
For starters the genetic code is a real code and as such unexplainable via physio-chemical processes. The only known source of codes is intelligent agencies and biology is ruled by codes.
Seems you are claiming at least two things: (1) Physio-chemical processes are in principle incapable of producing "a real code" such as genetic code. (2) This incapability constitutes evidence of a "reality beyond matter in motion," since some other force must have produced genetic code if physio-chemical processes alone were not up to the task.LarTanner
October 13, 2015
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LT:
What is the empirical evidence of this specific reality?
For starters the genetic code is a real code and as such unexplainable via physio-chemical processes. The only known source of codes is intelligent agencies and biology is ruled by codes.Virgil Cain
October 13, 2015
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KF (60) -
we see empirical evidence of a reality beyond matter in motion by chance and necessity to effect gigo-constrained blind computation, and rational, responsibly free conscious contemplation.
Pretty exciting. What is the empirical evidence of this specific reality? Inquiring onlookers will surely want to know.LarTanner
October 13, 2015
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WJM, prezactly. KFkairosfocus
October 13, 2015
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Z said:
Whether brains have FSCO/I or CSI or DENIAL, or not, we still don’t have scientific evidence of disembodied intelligence.
This is just another case of someone with an ideologically-committed position reiterating unsupported, purely rhetorical assertions long after their game has been exposed, as if continuing to reiterate = actually providing support for their blanket assertions. I've noticed that "There is no evidence for ..." is one of the naturalist/materialist community's favorite rhetorical devices, as well as using the all-encompassing "we" or "us" when they make their unsupported assertions. It makes their ideological beliefs appear to carry the weight of factual universality, when in fact their views are often in the extreme minority and they cannot (as Z demonstrates above) offer any support whatsoever for these kinds of claims.William J Murray
October 13, 2015
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Z: 1 --> questionable promissory note, AKA invitation to blind faith in materialism and scientism. (As these are inherently self-refuting, declined.) 2 --> Admission of failure to date to demonstrate emergence of rational, responsibly free self-aware, conscious mind from a computational substrate. 3 --> What was shown in outline is that there is an ontological gap between blindly mechanical computation and linked signal processing, and what is experienced and required for responsibly free reasoned discussion. (A gap in kind, not just quantity or structure. This shows a gaping hole in the heart of the reductionism of mind to brains in bodies carrying out computations.) Further to all this, we see empirical evidence of a reality beyond matter in motion by chance and necessity to effect gigo-constrained blind computation, and rational, responsibly free conscious contemplation. Bluff further called. KF PS: If you want evidence -- observations, findings of fact and reasoning pointing to mind beyond matter, first consider the contingent nature of the only observed physical world. Then, even through multiverse speculations, note fine tuning for C chemistry aqueous medium, cell based life at locally deeply isolated cosmological operating point. This points to purpose, contrivance, skill and deep knowledge backed by awesome power. Such imply purpose, plan, intent, rational reflection, thus design antecedent to matter. Multiply by the implications of possible/impossible, contingent/necessary being, want of causal capacity of non being and we see necessary being root of reality. Compound such by our finding ourselves under inescapable moral government, thus the need to bridge the IS-OUGHT gap. Where, were there ever utter nothing, such would forever obtain. Thus we see just one serious candidate root of reality, the inherently good eternal creator God, a necessary and maximally great being worthy of ultimate loyalty and the reasonable service of doing the good in accord with our evident nature. And no, imposing scientism and evolutionary materialism -- self refuting -- does not make the cut.kairosfocus
October 13, 2015
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kairosfocus: Z, kindly explain to us how per scientific, conclusive evidence, neuron networks or other similar substrates in brains, etc, give rise to responsible, rational freedom There is as yet no scientific explanation. That doesn’t get us to evidence of disembodied conscious intelligence.Zachriel
October 13, 2015
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Z, kindly explain to us how per scientific, conclusive evidence, neuron networks or other similar substrates in brains, etc, give rise to responsible, rational freedom; which is a pre-requisite for responsible, reasoned discussion . . . and label and discuss does not count. Let us hear it: _________, and the Nobel prizes for it are ______ . I predict, you will not be able to cogently fill in these blanks. KFkairosfocus
October 13, 2015
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kairosfocus: we do have evidence that embodiment and computational substrates do not get us to responsible, rational, self aware freedom. So we can rule out the "aliens made brains" faction of the Intelligent Design Movement. kairosfocus: rational, self aware freedom. Which is our first datum of experience So introspection, not scientific evidence. If brains are complex, then consciousness based in the brain would presumably be complex as well. That doesn't get us to evidence of disembodied conscious intelligence.Zachriel
October 13, 2015
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Z, we do have evidence that embodiment and computational substrates do not get us to responsible, rational, self aware freedom. Which is our first datum of experience and without which rational discussion collapses in self-referential absurdity of incoherence. In short, the evidence points to, in order to explain or have conscious, responsibly free intelligent mind, we have to go beyond material substrates. So, the claim of lack of evidence for disembodied intelligence collapses into irrelevancy and question begging imposition of evolutionary materialism. Worse, said lab coat clad ideology cannot even get us to the FSCO/I in a living cell much less a neuron, much less a brain-body system. In sum, you have rhetorically jumped over a mountain of difficulties to present an ideologically loaded suggestion as though it were scientifically established fact. Bluff called. KFkairosfocus
October 13, 2015
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kairosfocus: So I have pointed out that a priori evolutionary materialism has problems with the FSCO/I in brains, the computational substrate. Whether brains have FSCO/I or CSI or DENIAL, or not, we still don't have scientific evidence of disembodied intelligence.Zachriel
October 13, 2015
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Zachriel:
The claim is accurate to our knowledge, but as we have said repeatedly, we are willing to consider scientific evidence of a disembodied intelligence.
And we are willing to consider scientific evidence for undirected evolution producing something like a bacterial flagellum. Unfortunately no one can find any. :razz:Virgil Cain
October 13, 2015
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Kairosfocus, thank you for your thoughts.
Kairosfocus: what has actually happened is that you have imposed a question-begging redefinition on the term science, to equal a priori evolutionary materialism or a fellow traveller thereof, and then have used that to lock out considering anything but mechanical behaviour and/or blind chance. The consequence of which is fatally self referential incoherence as such cannot account for responsible freedom. Without responsible freedom, we cannot be truly rational, and so the notion of a reasoned, “scientific” worldview evaporates also.
I could not agree more: "without responsible freedom, we cannot be truly rational." At the very start of rational inquiry we must presuppose our rationality and its prerequisite "responsible freedom". We must be in control of our thoughts in order for rationality to exist. To deny this in any way is self-referential incoherent. Next, logic informs us that there cannot be responsible freedom in a universe ruled by blind chance and /or equally blind mechanical necessity. Conclusion: everyone who holds that rationality is real must reject naturalism on the onset.Box
October 13, 2015
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Z, that's an evasion. Let's clip the section you cleverly snipped just a small part of:
You have no actual adequate explanation for the FSCO/I in the computational substrate -- note the clipped off continuation -- , or you would have given it. You have no actual adequate explanation for its “programming,” or you would have given that too. Worse, speculations about sophisticated looping etc notwithstanding, you have no adequate explanation for pivotal mental phenomena to the point where there are constant attempts to undermine them. Such as: responsible freedom, free logical reasoning, purposing, deciding and more. If I am wrong, simply give it, and tell us who won the Nobel prizes for it: __________________
Your evasion is a backhanded implicit admission. You have tried to confine mind to brains. I roll tape from 42:
Z, 42: >>After having examined the scientific evidence — something you can do as well —, we have found no scientific evidence of disembodied intelligence [--> in short, mind = brains thesis]. Perhaps we are wrong. If you think we are, we’d be happy to look at any scientific evidence of disembodied intelligence you provide.>>
So I have pointed out that a priori evolutionary materialism has problems with the FSCO/I in brains, the computational substrate. (Actually, it starts with the FSCO/I in neurons and indeed the living cell.) I then went on to highlight the further explanatory gap between computation and rational, conscious contemplation requiring responsible freedom to be trustworthy. This is now self-referential, as to have a discussion, this has to be in the background or discussion becomes noise or manipulation rather than responsible rational discourse. From this, I am highlighting a fatal hole in the lab coat clad evolutionary materialist picture that is often presented as though it were unquestionable, duly lab coat clad scientific fact, i.e. with question-begging, inappropriate use of authority and the linked fallacy of confident manner. So, the whole pretence that there is nothing un-addressed on the table, it is superstition to think in terms of responsible, rational, purposeful freedom, mind or even soul, breaks down. KF PS: The pretence that evolutionary materialist scientism, presented in the guise of hypothetico-deductive reasoning exhausts science and its methods (and often by suggestion the sphere of serious knowledge), also collapses.kairosfocus
October 13, 2015
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kairosfocus: You have no actual adequate explanation for the FSCO/I in the computational substrate ... Sorry, but that is not the topic under discussion. William J Murray: Can you refer me to some authoritative source where this “standard definition” of science is offered? Seriously? You might try a standard source, such as an encyclopedia. Encyclopedia Britannica: Scientific method, experimental techniques employed in the natural sciences; more specifically, techniques used in the construction and testing of scientific hypotheses.Zachriel
October 12, 2015
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William J Murray: I just want you to support your assertions. We have, but are more than willing to consider any evidence that might contradict our stance. William J Murray: I have yet to see you reference any actual scientific evidence whatsoever. You might start with Kandel et al., Neuroscience: Principles of Neural Science Fifth Edition, McGraw-Hill 2012. If that's too much for you, try an encyclopedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience William J Murray: As far as I can now tell, you’re not claiming that there is no such evidence, but rather that you are not personally aware of any such evidence. The claim is accurate to our knowledge, but as we have said repeatedly, we are willing to consider scientific evidence of a disembodied intelligence.Zachriel
October 12, 2015
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KF said:
WJM, it has recently become clear that Z is a collective. KF
I think what's become clear is that Z likes to say things in a way that makes them appear to be much more substantive than they actually are. It seems to me he refers to himself in the pluralistic simply in order to give his personal, unsubstantiated views more weight than they actually carry. "There is no evidence" and "our shared and uniform experience" indeed. It appears that if Z doesn't know about it, it doesn't exist, and if Z doesn't experience it, nobody else does, either.William J Murray
October 12, 2015
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Zachriel said:
No. We use the standard definition, hypothetico-deduction.
Can you refer me to some authoritative source where this "standard definition" of science is offered?William J Murray
October 12, 2015
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WJM, it has recently become clear that Z is a collective. KFkairosfocus
October 12, 2015
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Zachriel, with all due respect, no. You have no actual adequate explanation for the FSCO/I in the computational substrate, or you would have given it. You have no actual adequate explanation for its "programming," or you would have given that too. Worse, speculations about sophisticated looping etc notwithstanding, you have no adequate explanation for pivotal mental phenomena to the point where there are constant attempts to undermine them. Such as: responsible freedom, free logical reasoning, purposing, deciding and more. If I am wrong, simply give it, and tell us who won the Nobel prizes for it: __________________ Instead, we find impositions like these by the US National Science Teachers in a well known July 2000 Board declaration, supposedly reflective of "Science," but only managing to be evolutionary materialist scientism in a lab coat:
Although no single universal step-by-step scientific method captures the complexity of doing science, a number of shared values and perspectives characterize a scientific approach to understanding nature. Among these are a demand for naturalistic explanations [--> = evolutionary materialist scientism dressed up in a lab coat] supported by empirical evidence that are, at least in principle, testable against the natural world. Other shared elements include observations, rational argument, inference, skepticism, peer review and replicability of work . . . . Science, by definition, is limited to naturalistic methods and explanations
And, there is a lot more where that came from. KFkairosfocus
October 12, 2015
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