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RDFish Cannot Count to Three

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In a prior post RDFish starts off with a promisingly cogent observation:

We’re not arguing about “evolutionary adaptation”, but rather about the highly intricate, multi-component mechanisms we observe in organisms. Of course large populations and crossovers can help a bit with local optima, but saying these things will “tend to avoid” them is wishful thinking – there is just so much that can be assembled that way, which is why GAs come up with optimizations and not novel mechanisms. The important point, though, is not to argue about this in the abstract, because there is no way to demonstrate (yet) whether or not the combinatorial resources were sufficient or not.

Leading Mapou to respond:

Wow. RDFish is moving dangerously close to accepting the designer hypothesis (i.e., life requires consciousness)

To which RDFish responds indignantly:

HUH? Why in the world would you say that – I haven’t moved one iota in that direction, of course, because there isn’t a shred of evidence for it. I deny that evolutionary theory accounts for biological complexity, but that doesn’t lend any credence whatsoever to the notion that some conscious being thought up designs for all us creatures and built us somehow!

I am always amazed when one of our opponents reveals that the metaphysical blinders they are wearing restrict their vision to such a degree that they cannot see the blatantly obvious implications of their own conclusions.

Let’s lay it out step by step.

  1. Given our current understanding of causation, there are three and only three possibilities regarding the provenance of “highly intricate, multi-component mechanisms we observe in organisms.” The first two possibilities, which in combination are often referred to as “natural causes,” are law and chance, including a combination of the two.  The third possibility, Aristotle’s tertium quid, is the act of an intelligent agent.*

 

  1. The project of modern evolutionary theory is to demonstrate that the highly intricate, multi-component mechanisms we observe in organisms can be reduced to purely natural causes.

 

  1. The project of intelligent design is to demonstrate that intelligent agency is a better explanation for the highly intricate, multi-component mechanisms we observe in organisms.

 

  1. Modern evolutionary theory and ID are playing a zero sum game. If modern evolutionary theory is correct about the sufficiency of natural causes to account for the observations, ID would be falsified.  If ID is correct about the insufficiency of natural causes to account for the observations, that aspect of modern evolutionary theory would be falsified.

 

  1. In the comment above, RDFish denies that evolutionary theory currently accounts for biological complexity.

 

  1. Other things being equal, RDFish’s observation – to the extent it is true – undermines the standing of modern evolutionary theory.

 

  1. Since we are playing a zero sum game, it follows that Mapou is generally correct; RDFish’s observation supports a design approach to the extent it undermines a non-design approach to origins, even if RDFish himself does not understand it.

RDfish again:  “I deny that evolutionary theory accounts for biological complexity, but that doesn’t lend any credence whatsoever to the notion that some conscious being thought up designs for all us creatures and built us somehow!”

Uh, Fish, since it is one or the other, denying that one can explain the observations does tend to lend credence to the other (which is not to say that it establishes it, but it does tend in that direction).

 

__________

*There may, of course, be an unknown quartium quid (a fourth causal force in addition to law, chance and agency) that has escaped detection from the time of Aristotle to this moment.  That is why I qualify with “given our current understanding of causation.”  We do not know what we do not know, but if we must choose based on what we do know, there are only three choices.

Comments
Mr Fish, What objectively observable characteristics or abilities do all natural causes have in common? Surely you have an answer.Mung
December 11, 2015
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The following gets to the root of the problem: According to your definition (and the generally recognised one), a natural cause is defined as any cause outside of human involvement?
Yes that’s the definition I’ve been using here.
And yet it is a given that other animals make artifacts. I even linked to an article that RDFish said he read that demonstrates artifacts are not just a human thing. The next is pure willful ignorance:
One is that they explain a wide range of phenomena (biological systems, the values of the physical constants, and so on) with just this single term “intelligence”, without providing any sort of scientific definition for this (notoriously vague and scientifically controversial) term.
Or a pathological liar.
The problem with this definition derives from how we ascertain that something has foresight and planning skills.
We do so via our knowledge of cause and effect relationships, ie science. If we listen to RDFish it's a wonder that we can do any science at all. Cheers, Virgil CainVirgil Cain
December 11, 2015
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Hi aqeels,
I am a little confused. So try to help me out.
Well, we've gotten to the portion of the show where the people who lose simply stop responding, then come back a few months later as though they've won. Anyway, I'll be glad to help you understand.
According to your definition (and the generally recognised one), a natural cause is defined as any cause outside of human involvement?
Yes that's the definition I've been using here.
If so, then your only point of contention is if we substitute “human” with “intelligent agency” or “Intelligence”.
I have several objections regarding ID. One is that they explain a wide range of phenomena (biological systems, the values of the physical constants, and so on) with just this single term "intelligence", without providing any sort of scientific definition for this (notoriously vague and scientifically controversial) term. Next is that when somebody finally does make up some definition for "intelligence" in the context of ID, it fails to enable ID to infer anything specific about the cause of living things. Either: 1) It has nothing to do with our general intuitive notions that we usually associate with "intelligence" (learning, solving novel problems, general purpose language, and so on) 2) It cannot be empirically established in the context of ID (we can't tell if the cause of protein synthesis mechanisms could use a generally expressive language, for example) 3) It is scientifically meaningless - it refers to something too vague to enable objective identification (for example, "something done for a purpose" is a subjective criterion - one for which there is no objective test).
If someone asked you the following, how would you respond? I agree on the definition of what natural causes are, but can you explain what it is that humans do that is different from natural causes?
The difference depends on what you are comparing it to. For example, the differences between humans and chimpanzees are different than the differences between a human and a tornado, or a human and a bacterium.
I know how I would answer; namely that humans can do things with foresight and planning; IOW they routinely apply intelligence.
Of course we've gone over this one many times here. The problem with this definition derives from how we ascertain that something has foresight and planning skills. The word "foresight" means "the ability to predict or the action of predicting what will happen or be needed in the future". For people, this means we consciously apprehend our predictions; we visualize the result or picture it in our mind's eye. We use the dorsolateral part of the frontal lobes of our brains to do planning; damage to this area of the brain interferes with our ability to plan. Now, if we observed some humanoid alien (like in SciFi movies) who was able to produce CSI of some sort, we would certainly infer that this creature has a brain similar to ours, had conscious mental experiences like ours, and shared the rest of our mental abilities more or less. If we observed some extra-terrestrial life form that was really different from us (like in more imaginative SciFi movies), we might have some doubts about what we shared. Would it have a brain like ours? Consciousness like we have? A language with recursive grammar like ours? Ability to learn new skills? We'd have to interact with the non-humanoid alien in order to ascertain these things, and it wouldn't be easy. But in the context of ID, we can't interact with the entity at all. Maybe it's not an "entity" or a "being" but rather a "process" or a "principle" (as Debmski himself says, the Designer may be a conscious agent, or it may be an "impersonal telic process....)". Something so radically different from human beings cannot simply be assumed to use the same sort of process to produce CSI. There needs to be evidence that whatever produced the CSI in biology is the same thing (that you call "foresight") that enables humans to produce CSI. We use foresight to solve Steiner Tree problems, yet slime mold finds the same minimum tree configurations - presumably without "foresight".
What would your answer be?
There are all sorts of things that humans do that nothing else we know of does. There are many aspects of human languages that are unique for example (although other animals do use grammatical language). Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
December 11, 2015
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Mung @120 - you are probably right. I can hope though.aqeels
December 11, 2015
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LoL! @ Alicia! Why wasn't Barry protected by the herd, Alicia? Why do people still get the flu if the herd protects them, Alicia? Why am I taking care of my wife and son when they got the shot and I did not? Call me whatever you like. You are a proven imbecile and you can't even address what you try to ridicule. And yes, everyone here sees that. Enjoy living in blissful ignorance. Cheers, Virgil CainVirgil Cain
December 11, 2015
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Whatever you say Virgy. It's quite clear to everyone here that you are either a complete idiot or posing as an idiot, in which case you are still an idiot. Enjoy fixing those toasters.Alicia Cartelli
December 11, 2015
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Earth to Kenneth Cupcake- I have never repaired a toaster. However, unlike you, I am sure that I could. Also every community would be better off if they followed my lead. But obviously you are too dim to understand that. Cheers, Virgil CainVirgil Cain
December 11, 2015
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LoL! @ Alicia Cartelli- It may cover 3 strains and it is very possible that none of the strains will be in the outbreak. And if everyone followed my lead then we wouldn't need flu shots. And way to ignore what I posted- people with the vaccine can become carriers. My family all got shots and they are sick right now. Guess who isn't sick? I rely on no one but myself, moroness Cheers, Virgil CainVirgil Cain
December 11, 2015
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What would your answer be? I'm sure that he doesn't even need to think about it.Mung
December 11, 2015
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RDFish, I am a little confused. So try to help me out. According to your definition (and the generally recognised one), a natural cause is defined as any cause outside of human involvement? If so, then your only point of contention is if we substitute "human" with "intelligent agency" or "Intelligence". If someone asked you the following, how would you respond? I agree on the definition of what natural causes are, but can you explain what it is that humans do that is different from natural causes? I know how I would answer; namely that humans can do things with foresight and planning; IOW they routinely apply intelligence. What would your answer be? Thanks, aqeels.aqeels
December 11, 2015
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All I can say is that I am glad that Joe... oops... Frankie... oops...Virgil is a toaster repair man and not any community's medical officer of health. Or dog catcher, for that matter.Kenneth Hughs
December 10, 2015
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It covers multiple strains, Virgy. And the idea is that the majority of people get the vaccine in order to protect the immunocompromised from the most likely virus strains for that season. If you are "neither weak nor unprotected," then you should be getting the vaccine. If you don't get it, then you are relying on herd immunity to avoid infection. End of story.Alicia Cartelli
December 10, 2015
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Alicia, you have serious issues:
No, Virgy, the flu shot consists of destroyed virus.
All I said was it is of a SPECIFIC STRAIN. And it is. You are clueless and flailing.
You get the flu shot and you are only a “carrier” of immunological memory specific to the flu strains of that vaccine.
If a person with the shot comes in contact with an infected person, the person with the shot may not get sick but can infect the next person contacted. They become a carrier.
The herd cannot infect the weak, otherwise “herd immunity” wouldn’t exist.
If the herd gets infected by another strain and the weak are unprotected, then the herd can infect the weak. Your weak mind is also narrow of view and thought.
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
Obviously you don't have any idea what I am talking about. As I said, your ignorance is boundless. Cheers, Virgil CainVirgil Cain
December 10, 2015
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No, Virgy, the flu shot consists of destroyed virus. You get the flu shot and you are only a "carrier" of immunological memory specific to the flu strains of that vaccine. The herd cannot infect the weak, otherwise “herd immunity” wouldn’t exist. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Your stupidity knows no bounds.Alicia Cartelli
December 10, 2015
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DK: What’s your view on that vital issue, Mr Mung? My view is that Mr. Fish won't answer because it would reveal the false dichotomy that his "argument" depends upon. Mr. Fish:
What objectively observable characteristics or abilities do all intelligent agents have in common?
Mr. Mung:
What objectively observable characteristics or abilities do all natural causes have in common?
Mr. Fish lost his guts.Mung
December 10, 2015
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Mr. Fish, what objectively observable characteristics or abilities do all natural causes have in common? Thank your for demonstrating that you cannot answer that one simple question!
What's your view on that vital issue, Mr Mung?Daniel King
December 10, 2015
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Earth to Alicia Cartelli, Thank you for your kind words, but your ignorance is boundless. Vaccinated people are still carriers, meaning the herd can easily infect the weak and unprotected. I am neither weak nor unprotected. You are weak so you seek the (false) protection of the herd. If a different strain of influenza strikes- different from the vaccine- the herd is in deep doo and I will still be fine. Class dismissed. Cheers, Virgil Cain :razz:Virgil Cain
December 10, 2015
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kind, a group of people or things that belong together or have some shared quality : a particular type or variety of person or thing http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/kind natural, existing in nature and not made or caused by people : coming from nature. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/naturalZachriel
December 10, 2015
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I, too, need to leave the thread for a while. Thanks to vivid for catching RD's response @86. I would like to follow up, but that's it for now.StephenB
December 10, 2015
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StephenB RE 102 "Can science establish the existence of any kind of cause, including a natural cause? As we discovered, you are afraid to respond. " Stephen in post 86 RDF did respond with a yes. Vividvividbleau
December 10, 2015
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"I don’t even get the flu following that regimen." Because you're one of the idiots that doesn't get the vaccine, and just benefits from herd immunity.Alicia Cartelli
December 10, 2015
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Hi RDFish:
And I have pointed out, dozens of times, that this particular definition cannot be empirically verified in the context of ID.
And we have pointed out, dozens more times, that particular definition is easily empirically verified in the context of ID.
“Complex Specified Information” is Dembski’s attempt to allow an objective identification of the sorts of things that we’re trying to explain in biology – the things he tries to prove cannot be produced by evolutionary means.
Materialistic means.
Again, while I accept CSI as an objectively identifiable feature, the only way I can imagine one might determine purpose is to somehow know that it was produced by someone who consciously intended to produce it.
Yes, producing CSI requires a plan, ie a purpose. And that means an intelligent agency produced it as only intelligent agencies produce things for a purpose. We know Stonehenge was put there on purpose. We know the pyramids were put there on purpose. Forensic science and archaeology both depend on being able to tell if something was done on purpose. Insurance investigations, fire investigations, SETI (oh no someone just mindlessly assembled a RF transmitter and started broadcasting)- all depend on determining intent. This is all common knowledge folks. It isn't voodoo. Science is all about the understanding of cause and effect relationships. We can tell by the amount of work that goes into producing something whether or not there was a purpose. We can tell by the number of parts a system requires and how they fit together whether or not it was built on purpose. AGAIN, thankfully RDFish is not an investigator. Cheers, Virgil CainVirgil Cain
December 10, 2015
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Hi Barry Arrington,
Because it has been answered dozens of times. An intelligent agent is one that arranges matter for a purpose.
And I have pointed out, dozens of times, that this particular definition cannot be empirically verified in the context of ID. Let's see if you can understand this. "Complex Specified Information" is Dembski's attempt to allow an objective identification of the sorts of things that we're trying to explain in biology - the things he tries to prove cannot be produced by evolutionary means. Most scientists dismiss the notion of CSI (they complain it is unquantifiable, or that "specification" is subjective), but I do not dismiss it. I accept Dembski's notion of CSI arguendo, because I believe the complex form and function we observe in biology cannot be produced by evolutionary mechanisms, and they cry out for explanation. Although many people here have defined "intelligence" as "the ability to produce CSI", I have pointed out that this definition renders ID a vacuous tautology ("The CSI in biology is produced by that which can produce CSI"). So now you and StephenB have adopted a different definition, which is "that which can arrange matter for a purpose". But StephenB refused to (could not) explain exactly how "matter arranged for a purpose" differs from CSI, and also could not suggest what objective method we might use to distinguish matter arranged for a purpose from matter that has not been arranged for a purpose. Again, while I accept CSI as an objectively identifiable feature, the only way I can imagine one might determine purpose is to somehow know that it was produced by someone who consciously intended to produce it. Since you already acknowledged that ID cannot support an inference to conscious intent, it appears this definition of intelligence cannot be objectively supported in the context of ID either.
I am truly mystified that you believe you are winning your debate with SB. It has been a pleasure watching him take you to pieces.
You are indeed mystified, but if you keep an open mind, perhaps some things may become clear to you in the future. Stephen's only diversion here has been to call into question all of empirical science - sort of like a corporate poison-pill: "If you won't let me say ID is scientific, then I will destroy the very notion of science itself! BWAAAAHAHAHA!". It's a very, very silly ploy, intended only to save him from having to try and explain what objective method we can use to distinguish which things are "for a purpose" and which are not.
My participation at UD has been minimal lately because I came down with a vicious flu bug on Sunday.
Sorry to hear about your illness. I too will be unavailable for the next 24 hours or so. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
December 10, 2015
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Mr. Fish, what objectively observable characteristics or abilities do all natural causes have in common? Thank your for demonstrating that you cannot answer that one simple question!Mung
December 10, 2015
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Got the flu? Take zinc, emergen-C and Cell Power. Zinc 50 mg/ day. Emergen-C 2 packs, 2-3 times a day. Cell Power- 15-20 drops three times a day in pure water, not tap. I don't even get the flu following that regimen.Virgil Cain
December 10, 2015
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RDFish
You have never even attempted to answer the one simple question I have asked of you over and over again: What objectively observable characteristics or abilities do all intelligent agents have in common?
Because it has been answered dozens of times. An intelligent agent is one that arranges matter for a purpose. I am truly mystified that you believe you are winning your debate with SB. It has been a pleasure watching him take you to pieces. My participation at UD has been minimal lately because I came down with a vicious flu bug on Sunday.Barry Arrington
December 10, 2015
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RDFish
You ignored my examples of categorization...
you don't understand what category means.
Imagine a Ford, a Chevy, and a Buick. They are all the same kind of vehicles – they are all passenger cars. But they are different kinds of vehicles too – they are different kinds of passenger cars.
Begin by defining what you mean by "kind," and you will discover your error. Define category A and differentiate it from category B. I can't define your terms for you.
Imagine a tornado, an earthquake, and a rainstorm. They are all the same kind of causes – they are all natural causes.
Yep.
But they are different kinds of causes too – they are different sorts of natural causes.
Nope. They are all variations of the same category of cause.
But since you know you can’t actually address my arguments, you (as always) find some distraction to hide behind rather than engage the debate.
I destroyed all you arguments with a single question: Can science establish the existence of any kind of cause, including a natural cause? As we discovered, you are afraid to respond. I don't blame you.StephenB
December 10, 2015
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Beavers manipulate nature for a purpose. Ants manipulate nature for a purpose. Bees manipulate nature for a purpose. Termites manipulate nature for a purpose. Beaver's can fall a tree with the precision that rivals our most skilled lumberjacks. They know what they are doing and by all appearances plan their actions. Cheers, Virgil CainVirgil Cain
December 10, 2015
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Hi RDFish:
ID is supposed to be a scientific theory that explains life on Earth, and it proposes just one single word that is supposed to explain everything
ID does NOT say it explains everything. ID does not try to explain everything.
Incredibly, ID refuses to provide a technical definition for this, its sole explanatory term.
That is incorrect and demonstrates willful ignorance.
When pressed, different ID proponents come up with all sorts of different definitions,...
Yes, most words have several meanings.
and none of them are (1) empirically verifiable in the context of ID and (2) encompass what we normally associate with “intelligence” in humans.
That is just a blatant lie. Cheers, Virgil CainVirgil Cain
December 10, 2015
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Hi All - ID is supposed to be a scientific theory that explains life on Earth, and it proposes just one single word that is supposed to explain everything: "intelligence". Incredibly, ID refuses to provide a technical definition for this, its sole explanatory term. When pressed, different ID proponents come up with all sorts of different definitions, and none of them are (1) empirically verifiable in the context of ID and (2) encompass what we normally associate with "intelligence" in humans. Thanks for the discussion! Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
December 10, 2015
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