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RDFish/Aiguy’s “What Does “Intelligence” Mean in ID Theory?”

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[I’m for giving opposing viewpoints a fair representation. Aiguy is a widely respected critic of ID. I cross post his offering from TSZ What Does “Intelligence” Mean in ID Theory?]

Below I argue that despite insisting that it makes no claims about the nature of the Designer, ID’s equivocation on the meaning of “intelligence” results in implicit and unsupported connotations being lumped together as conclusions of the “design inference”.

Is it Intelligent?

Working in Artificial Intelligence, one comes to realize that asking if something is “intelligent” or not is generally a matter of definition rather than discovery. Here is a joke illustrating this point:

AIGUY: Here is our newest AI system. It learned to play grandmaster-level chess by reading books. It has written award-winning novels, proven the Goldbach Conjecture, written a beautiful symphony, designed a working fusion reactor, and talked a suicidal jumper down from the Golden Gate Bridge.
CUSTOMER: That’s very nice. But is this system actually intelligent?

I find that more often than not people don’t get this joke – at least not the same way I do. Some people think it’s obvious that a computer can’t be truly intelligent, so it’s ridiculous to ask that question. Other people think that anything that could do all the things this system does obviously is intelligent, so it’s funny that anyone would even bother to ask. Still others believe that the question is perfectly reasonable, and the answer could be determined by looking more carefully at the computer’s characteristics.

To me, the joke is that the question isn’t actually about the computer system, but rather it’s about what the word “intelligent” means. And there is no right or wrong answer; it is entirely a matter of our choosing what we consider intelligence to be, and thus whether we consider some particular thing (entity, being, system, process) intelligent or not.

[Footnote: As an aside, ID proponents often change the subject when talking about computer intelligence. If I point out that computers can design things, they respond that the computer only can do this because it was itself designed by a real intelligent agent, a human being. In other words, rather than try to judge whether or not a computer that can design things is intelligent per se, ID proponents start talking about “Who designed the designer?” and about how this computer came to exist. I’m not sure why ID proponents don’t realize that they believe human beings were also designed by a real intelligent agent, yet this doesn’t disqualify us from being intelligent per se!]

The concept of “intelligence” – like “life” – is notoriously difficult to pin down. As Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart famously remarked about pornography, we know it when we see it, but if you ask five cognitive psychologists what the word “intelligence” means, you may get seven different definitions. Broadly speaking, definitions of intelligence can be categorized as either functional, where the definition specifies something about how intelligent systems operate, or behavioral, where the definition specifies the sorts of tasks systems must be capable of in order to be considered intelligent. I have been in countless semantic disputes (as opposed to substantive disagreements) regarding the concept of intelligence because people have different types of definitions in mind.

[Footnote: People sometimes complain that if “life” is hard to define, why don’t I object to biologists that they are equivocating on that word? The answer is that biologists use the word “life” not to explain anything, but rather to generally describe the sorts of things they study. In contrast, ID Theory offers “intelligence” as an explanatory construct, and thus is obliged to say exactly what it means.]

ID Theory and Intelligent Behavior

In spite of this confusion over what the term “intelligence” means, ID theory offers it as the best explanation for the existence of complex form and function in biology, as well as universal fine-tuning (I’ll refer to these features collectively as “biological CSI” here for simplicity). In fact, the term “intelligent cause” is the sum total of ID’s explanatory framework – absolutely nothing else is said about what ID supposes to have been responsible. So it seems fair to ask what precisely is meant by this term in the context of ID.

Years ago William Dembski was asked (by me) in a forum interview what he meant by “intelligence”, and he replied that it could be defined as simply as “the ability to produce complex specified information”. I’ve heard this many times since (here’s a recent example from Sal at UD: https://uncommondescent.com/philosophy/arguing-for-resemblance-of-design-rd-instead-of-intelligent-design-id/#comment-460109 ).

The problem with using a behavioral definition of intelligence like this is that it renders ID theory a vacuous tautology: ID claims the best explanation for CSI in biology is that which produces CSI. Simply labelling a hypothetical cause does not add anything to our understanding; the theorist must actually characterize the explanatory construct in a way that enables us to decide if it exists or not. Otherwise, for example, we could explain the existence of crop circles by invoking the “cerealogical force”, which is characterized by the ability to produce crop circles. How do we know that the cerealogical force exists? By the appearance of crop circles of course!

Why isn’t it obvious to everyone that defining “intelligence” this way makes ID into a vacuous claim? Because people typically make a set of implicit assumptions about other sorts of things an intelligent thing should be able to do, viz. the things that human beings can typically do. For example, if ID said this intelligent cause was something that, besides creating biological CSI, was also capable of explaining its actions in grammatical language, or proving a theorem in first order logic, or predicting lunar eclipses, then ID would indeed be making meaningful claims. The challenge then would be to provide some indication that these claim were true, but of course there is no such evidence.

Again: There is no evidence whatsoever that ID’s intelligent cause could do anything aside from produce the biological CSI we observe. There is no theory of intelligence that tells us that when some entity displays one particular ability it will necessarily have some other ability. Just like the chess-playing computer – or a human with savant syndrome – it may be that ID’s “intelligent cause” could do one thing very well, but could do nothing else that human beings typically do.

Of course, to the extent that the intelligent cause was supposed to be similar to human beings in other respects (and in particular had similar brain anatomy and neurophysiology) there may be reason to speculate a similarity in other abilities. But since the thing (entity, system, process, force, etc) that ID claims as the cause biological CSI may be a radically different sort of thing than a human being, there is simply no grounds to assume it has other abilities similar to humans.

[Footnote: Occasionally at this point an ID proponent will remind me that ID makes no commitments as to the nature of the Designer, and thus It could well be some extra-terrestrial life form with some sort of brain. The suggestion seems disingenuous, though, and in any event once we posit the existence of extra-terrestrial life forms as the cause of life on Earth, it is simpler to imagine that life on Earth arose as these organisms’ descendents rather than as the product of their advanced bio-engineering skills.]

If ID chooses to define “intelligence” behaviorally, then, the result will either be that (1) ID is vacuous, or (2) ID makes claims that are not supported by any evidence. What about if ID defines “intelligence” functionally instead?

ID Theory and Intelligent Function

Dembski’s most usual definitions for “intelligence” are functional, including “the complement of fixed law and chance” and “the power and facility to choose between options”. So intelligent entities, in Dembski’s view, are defined by their power to make choices that are not determined by antecedent events. What Dembski does not mention (although he is surely aware of it) is that what he is defining as “intelligence” is another way of describing libertarian free will, and in my experience discussing ID with its proponents on the internet, this is indeed an important part of what most people mean when they talk about intelligence.

I believe the concept of metaphysical libertarianism to be incoherent, but in any case it clearly cannot be mistaken for settled science. But ID authors (including Dembski and Stephen Meyer) fail to acknowledge that this particular metaphysical position underlies their theory. On the contrary, Dembski and Meyer argue that the “intelligent causation” posited by ID as the cause of biological CSI is something that is known to us by our familiarity with intelligent agents. This is specious. What we know is that human beings design and build complex machinery. We do not know how we do it (because we don’t understand how we think), and we do not know if our thought processes transcend physical causality or not. Thus when Stephen Meyer claims that the causal explanation proposed by ID is known to us “in our uniform and repeated experience of intelligent agency”, he is pulling a fast one.

To his credit, Meyer does say something specific about what he means when he talks about intelligence: He often refers to intelligence as being synonymous with “conscious, rational deliberation”. We all know what consciousness is, even if nobody has any idea how (or if) it functions causally in our thought processes. So to say that the cause of life, the universe, and everything was conscious is to make a concrete claim.

But just as ID can’t support the claim that the intelligent cause was capable of explaining its intentions, ID offers no good reason to believe the intelligent cause was conscious. Moreover, there is some reason to doubt that claim a priori: Our uniform and repeated experience confirms that a well-functioning brain is necessary (even if not sufficient) for conscious awareness, and unless ID is explicitly proposing that ID’s intelligent cause had a brain, the conclusion warranted by our experience would be that the intelligent cause did not likely deliberate its designs consciously. We human beings are conscious of our intentions and consciously imagine future events, but this conscious awareness is known to critically rely on specific neural systems. The generation of biological CSI may well have occurred in ways that are fundamentally different from human cognition, and so we have no reason to believe it involved consciousness as humans experience it.

What about SETI?

ID proponents often turn to SETI to legitimize their insistence that “intelligence” is a meaningful scientific explanation. If we could explain a SETI signal by invoking extra-terrestrial intelligence, they reason, why can’t ID invoke an unspecified intelligence as the explanation for biological systems? But of course SETI is virtually the inverse of ID: SETI looks for things that do not otherwise occur in nature in order to find extra-terrestrial life forms, while ID looks at things that do occur in nature for signs of extra-terrestrial non-life forms.

SETI is not a theory; it is a search for data. It is the assumption that an ETI is an extra-terrestrial intelligent life form that lends meaning (and research direction) to the SETI program. SETI astrobiologists make assumptions about the likelihood of various planets being hospitable to life as we know it, and astronomers look for signals coming from such planets. If SETI did find some signal and a paper was published that suggested this was evidence for a intelligent agent that was not a form of life as we know it, I would complain that the term tells us nothing at all about what was responsible. All we could say is that the cause was something we know nothing about except that it was capable of producing the signal we observed.

Conclusion

The broad connotations of the word “intelligence” in the minds of most people include consciousness, metaphysical libertarianism, and the ability to solve novel problems in varied domains. These are specific claims that cannot be supported empirically in the context of ID. Once all of these concepts are removed, however, there is no meaning left to the term “intelligent cause”. And therefore, ID tells us nothing at all about the cause of life, the universe, and everything that can be supported by the evidence.

Imagine if we found the Intelligent Designer and asked It, say, why It created so many different types of beetles. For all ID can tell us, the Designer may be unable to answer, because It may be some sort process with no conscious beliefs or desires at all, acting without any idea of what It is doing or why.

Comments
Hi StephenB,
ID Science, which studies only the effects of design, cannot comment on the ontological nature of the designer. So, in saying that the designer can convert matter into form, ID speaks only about that which can be determined from the effects of design. ID science, because it is limited to the realm of effects, must allow for the possibility of a material or non-conscious designer–not because such a prospect makes any sense, which it doesn’t–but because science does not have the intellectual tools to rule it out.
Ok, so as far as ID SCIENCE can tell, ID can say absolutely nothing whatsoever about what caused the universe or biological complexity. Not one, single, solitary thing except "Whatever caused these things was able to cause these things". Agreed?
Philosophy, however,...
Sure, absolutely. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
July 5, 2013
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jerry
This is a bogus argument against ID
I didn't offer it as an argument against ID. That doesn't mean it isn't crucial. If libertarian free will makes sense, then ID makes sense. If it doesn't, then ID doesn't either. I would argue that libertarian free will doesn't make sense, but I haven't made that argument here yet :)
and is also at the same time an admission that Darwinism is also bogus.
How so? Libertarian free will could be true, and Darwinism true. But if libertarian free will is incoherent, then so is the ID inference (though a Designer could still be responsible for existence itself).
So the next futile argument is against the designer. This is not an argument that the designer does not exist only that the designer has certain properties that are incompatible with the traditional conception of the Judeo/Christian God. Which ID does not say anything about. In other words this is an attempt to undermine a particular understanding of God and not ID.
Not at all.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 5, 2013
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free will is fundamental (crucial as Lizzie says) to ID.
This is a bogus argument against ID and is also at the same time an admission that Darwinism is also bogus. So the next futile argument is against the designer. This is not an argument that the designer does not exist only that the designer has certain properties that are incompatible with the traditional conception of the Judeo/Christian God. Which ID does not say anything about. In other words this is an attempt to undermine a particular understanding of God and not ID. Thank you for admitting that ID is valid and Darwinism is nonsense. Now the discussion is only about the nature of the Designer of the universe and life. I think this is from the book of Job. Humans are closer to a maggot or worm than humans are to God who is infinitely more complex than humans. We would laugh if maggots started telling us what we are and why we do things.jerry
July 5, 2013
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SB: Sure. Anyone or anything that can choose to fashion or mold matter into form is an intelligent agent. RDF: Ok, so when you say the cause of the universe and living things was an “intelligent agent”, you are not saying it was conscious, or that it had beliefs and desires, or that it knew what it was doing or why. As far as ID can say, this thing may have been some unknown sort of process that produces CSI in ways we don’t understand. Is that right? Well, not exactly. ID Science, which studies only the effects of design, cannot comment on the ontological nature of the designer. So, in saying that the designer can convert matter into form, ID speaks only about that which can be determined from the effects of design. ID science, because it is limited to the realm of effects, must allow for the possibility of a material or non-conscious designer--not because such a prospect makes any sense, which it doesn't--but because science does not have the intellectual tools to rule it out. Philosophy, however, does have the intellectual tools to rule out the possibility of a material or non-conscious designer. From the ontological perspective, the designer must have intent and purpose. Beliefs or desires would not be necessary, though certainly possible.StephenB
July 5, 2013
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RDF: responsible freedom rather is crucial to the ability ot be able to think and reason. Haldane's version:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” ["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. ]
That evolutionary materialism has no answer to that challenge in its various forms, is the trade secret of AI, neuroscience etc. KFkairosfocus
July 5, 2013
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Hi Mark Frank,
I have only just noticed this OP. It is very interesting. I had never appreciated the fundamental significance of libertarian free will (whatever that means)to ID.
Thanks. Yes - they are loathe to say it explicitly, but contra-causal free will is fundamental (crucial as Lizzie says) to ID. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
July 5, 2013
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Hi StephenB,
Sure. Anyone or anything that can choose to fashion or mold matter into form is an intelligent agent.
Ok, so when you say the cause of the universe and living things was an "intelligent agent", you are not saying it was conscious, or that it had beliefs and desires, or that it knew what it was doing or why. As far as ID can say, this thing may have been some unknown sort of process that produces CSI in ways we don't understand. Is that right? Cheers, RDFishRDFish
July 5, 2013
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As usual, meaningless distractions and diversions. It is amazing what supposedly grown people will spend their time on.
Computers and their programs do what they are designed to do.
From Isaac Asimov http://filer.case.edu/dts8/thelastq.htm Separate thought - Lets call ID something like
"Incompatible Darwinism" "Insoluble Development"
Maybe not the best replacements but we can have a contest to chose the best term for ID. Then we can have another inane argument over the appropriateness of the new terms. Inanity thy name is "Darwinism"jerry
July 5, 2013
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ONE MORE TIME FOR THE WILLFULLY IGNORANT: Intelligence refers to agency and agency refers to that which can manipulate nature for its own or some purpose.
Why not tell us how to test for “intelligent agency”?
We already do that on a daily basis.
Why not provide a definition for “intelligence” that can be used in the context of ID?
Been there, done that. Do you think that onlookers don't see that all you are is an arse on an agenda?Joe
July 5, 2013
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There isn't any signifcance of libertarian free will wrt ID. If someone thinks otherwise please make your case.Joe
July 5, 2013
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RDFish:
Rather, the reason ID is vacuous is because they fail to define the term they are offering as an explanation.
Now RD just spews lies.
Archeologists deal with artifacts of human beings, and everybody knows what a human being is.
Wrong again. They do not know humans made every single artifcat they find. They may assume it, but they don't know.
When I wrote to Joe, I was making the point that he could not tell me a way to distinguish agency from non-agency unless he gave me some sort of definition for the term. And I gave you such a definition. You choked on it, as usual.
Joe
July 5, 2013
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It's absolutely crucial.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 5, 2013
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RDFish I have only just noticed this OP. It is very interesting. I had never appreciated the fundamental significance of libertarian free will (whatever that means)to ID.Mark Frank
July 5, 2013
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RDFish
Why not tell us how to test for “intelligent agency”? Why not provide a definition for “intelligence” that can be used in the context of ID?
Sure. Anyone or anything that can choose to fashion or mold matter into form is an intelligent agent.StephenB
July 5, 2013
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Hi StephenB,
You wrote this to Joe: Wrong: Every time you have observed CSI and knew the cause it has always been via human beings or other animals, not “agency”. So, clearly you had some idea of agency in mind that would not include human beings or animals.
Obviously there are any number of definitions of "agency" that would exclude human beings and animals. I've already given you one example.
Yet when I asked you what you meant by agency, you defined it as the capacity to choose among alternatives, which would include human beings and animals.
I asked you if you wanted me to make up a definition, and after reminding you that many possible definitions might be given, I made one up for you. I could have made up lots of others, including: 1) Something that operates according to neither fixed law nor chance 2) Something that experiences conscious awareness 3) Something that makes choices based on internal phsyical state 4) A universal Turing machine 5) A human being or other animal 6) Something capable of producing CSI ...and so on.
So, I am trying to understand your first definition of agency, the one which could exclude human beings and animals.
I think you can make up plenty of definitions that exclude human beings and animals, Stephen. How about "immaterial entities"? Or "things that can be proven to transcend physical law"? Instead of fixating on my interchange with Joe (!), why not talk about the issue here, and respond to the OP? Why not tell us how to test for "intelligent agency"? Why not provide a definition for "intelligence" that can be used in the context of ID? (Perhaps we both know why :-)) Cheers, RDFishRDFish
July 4, 2013
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RDFish
When I wrote to Joe, I was making the point that he could not tell me a way to distinguish agency from non-agency unless he gave me some sort of definition for the term.
Again, please bear with me, but I still do not understand. You wrote this to Joe:
Wrong: Every time you have observed CSI and knew the cause it has always been via human beings or other animals, not “agency”.
So, clearly you had some idea of agency in mind that would not include human beings or animals. Yet when I asked you what you meant by agency, you defined it as the capacity to choose among alternatives, which would include human beings and animals. So, I am trying to understand your first definition of agency, the one which could exclude human beings and animals.StephenB
July 4, 2013
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Hi StephenB,
What is the definition of “agency” that you did not make explicit before you decided to change its meaning?
I'm afraid you are just missing the point, Stephen. The point is, again, that whenever you write something about "agency" (like "intelligence") you have to carefully explain what you mean. When I wrote to Joe, I was making the point that he could not tell me a way to distinguish agency from non-agency unless he gave me some sort of definition for the term. That is why I said: See? I say human beings are not agents, and you say they are. How can we perform an experiment to see which one of us is correct?. My definition could have been "organisms who have been experimentally shown to possess contra-causal free will" (of which there are none). Now, if you believe that "intelligent agency" is a non-vacuous description of something we could identify objectively when we saw it, simply give me a uniform method for distinguishing whether something is an intelligent agent or not. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
July 4, 2013
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RDF:
In my comment to Joe, I had in mind another definition which I did not make explicit.
So, when you responded to Joe, you were using the term "agency" to mean something different from what you mean now? OK, I think I understand. What is the definition of "agency" that you did not make explicit before you decided to change its meaning?StephenB
July 4, 2013
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Hi StephenB, In my comment to Joe, I had in mind another definition which I did not make explicit. And that is the point: Unless we say what it is we mean by these terms, we will always talk past each other. By the way, the definition that I gave to you would include humans, dogs, computers, rivers, and electrons as things possessing "agency". Cheers, RDFishRDFish
July 4, 2013
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RDFish:
agency (n.): The ability to choose from among multiple options. How’s that?
Not bad at all. My purpose for asking is no secret and it is not meant to be a trap. It's just a matter of clarification. I don't understand your comment to Joe given your definition:
Wrong: Every time you have observed CSI and knew the cause it has always been via human beings or other animals, not “agency”.
StephenB
July 4, 2013
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Hi StephenB,
What is your definition of agency?
My definition? I think it's one of those words with so many different meanings that whenever you write something about it you have to carefully explain what you mean. If you want me to come up with one for our discussion here, sure: agency (n.): The ability to choose from among multiple options. How's that? Cheers, RDFishRDFish
July 4, 2013
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Hi Eric,
Yes, yes, I know you keep saying this. And others keep correcting you that such a position (i) is unnecessary, because we can — and various scientific fields do — work just fine dealing with the concept of intelligence without pinning down a definitive definition,
You are mistaken again, I'm afraid. There are no other scientific fields that have ever, or will ever, explain any natural phenomenon by appeal to some unspecified sort of "intelligent agency". You're just wrong about this. Not archeology, not forensic science, not psychology, not astrobiology.
...and (ii) demonstrates a misplaced hyperskepticism, as well as a double-standard that you seem unwilling to apply to other fields.
You are mistaken again. I apply the exact same standard to all fields, period. I have even said that if some scientist analyzed a SETI signal and said it came from some non-biological "intelligent agency" I would extend the exact same criticism to that.
Just because you keep saying ID is vacuous doesn’t make it so. Either you don’t understand ID or you are playing a double standard.
The reason ID is vacuous is not because I say it. Rather, the reason ID is vacuous is because they fail to define the term they are offering as an explanation. Instead, they rely on the implicit connotations the people typically associate with our own human mentality. Read the OP!
I do want to acknowledge RDFish for calling me out on my imprecise vocabulary in comment 22 above. I thought of using the word “induction” when I was writing the comment and should have done so and referred to an “inductive inference” to the best explanation, which is of course what we are talking about in the context of the intelligent design discussion.
Sorry but you are wrong yet again. This time, what you mean is abductive inference, which is the sort of inference to the best explanation that you are describing, and that folks like S. Meyer claims for ID. Again: Deductive inference draws conclusions from premises using laws of logic (like modus ponens), inductive inference makes generalizations from examples, and abductive inference reasons to the best explanation.
Apparently for some people that inductive inference is OK for SETI or archaeologists or other fields, but anathema when applied to biology.
SETI is a search, not a theory or a scientific discipline, and it is search for extra-terrestrial life forms - life as we know it as they say. Archeologists deal with artifacts of human beings, and everybody knows what a human being is. These things are completely irrelevant to the cause of the universe or of life, which is obviously not a life form. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
July 4, 2013
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Hi JDH
You are obviously smart and cordial.
Why, thank you.
But what I find irritating is what I consider your lack of intellectual honesty.
I'm quite honest, actually - both intellectually and otherwise :-)
In my way of looking at the world, human beings are unique in that they have the ability to believe.
I think that other animals can have beliefs too, and even computers believe things. I don't think computers have conscious beliefs, but I think some non-human animals do.
You even admit this when you say, “I believe…”.
Yes, I too have beliefs!
The neat thing about being human is that we have a conscious will which can step outside of ourselves and ask the important question, “Is this belief I have consistent with cold scientific fact?”
I think that humans are uniquely able to reflect in this way, yes. I don't think it is our "conscious will" that does this, however; I think it is us.
RDF: In my view, something is either determined or undetermined. If something is undetermined, then it is random. So when libertarians say thought is neither determined nor random, I think they are eliminating both possiblities, and that is why I think libertarianism is incoherent. JDH: Leave out the logical fallacy of begging the question for the moment.
I think you are mistaken - I've not assumed my conclusion here at all.
Let’s try and answer the question if thought is determined or random.
To be clear, human thinking can be a combination of determined and random causes. Libertarianism also allows some thoughts to be determined and some to be random; it holds that at least some thoughts are neither determined nor random.
Let’s not just talk about it, let’s do an experiment.
I LOVE experiments!
If thought is determined, then you should not be able to come up with a sample that at first glance looks random.
Huh??? Fully deterministic pseudo-random number generators will come up with a sample that looks random.
If thought is truly random, we should not be able to ( by applying simple statistical arguments ) tell which series is your guess at random behavior, and actual random behavior.
I don't know anyone who would say thought is "truly random". Where do you get that from?
If I can guess reliably which one of the two series you provide is the one l believe your conscious will produced by “trying to produce a sample that looks random”, and which one is truly random, I would say thought is not random.
I think we can skip the experiment (which is quite wrongheaded to begin with) and just agree that thought is not random. Good?
This experiment then gives strong scientific, repeatable, evidence that thought is neither determined nor random.
What??? No experiment can determine that thought is neither determined nor random. Again, a pseudo-random number generator is fully determined, yet produces sequences you could not distinguish from "true" random sources (and by the way, can you tell me what a "true" random source might be?).
At that point you can, as a thinking human being, decide whether or not to dump your viewpoint or not.
As a thinking human being, I would not dump a viewpoint that is rational and correct. Think again! Cheers, RDFish P.S.
BTW – RDFish, I am trusting you that you won’t provide two series generated by a pseudo-random number generator. You would obviously win the experiment, by representing to us as two series from different origin, two series with essentially the same origin. But at that point I would hope that your conscience would not let you do that.
???? Now I really have no idea what you are talking about. Obviously deterministic systems can produce sequences that you will determine to be random. So what is your point with all of this? Cheers, RDFishRDFish
July 4, 2013
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RDFish, What is your definition of agency?StephenB
July 4, 2013
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I do want to acknowledge RDFish for calling me out on my imprecise vocabulary in comment 22 above. I thought of using the word "induction" when I was writing the comment and should have done so and referred to an "inductive inference" to the best explanation, which is of course what we are talking about in the context of the intelligent design discussion. I thought that was clear in the context of the discussion, but he is right that I should have been more precise and I apologize for any confusion. My point is to draw a distinction between a pure deduction (which I agree could be by mere force of definition in this case), and the much broader inductive inference(s) that everyone knows SETI would legitimately draw if it received a relevant signal. Apparently for some people that inductive inference is OK for SETI or archaeologists or other fields, but anathema when applied to biology.Eric Anderson
July 4, 2013
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RDFish:
The broad connotations of the word “intelligence” in the minds of most people include consciousness, metaphysical libertarianism, and the ability to solve novel problems in varied domains. These are specific claims that cannot be supported empirically in the context of ID. Once all of these concepts are removed, however, there is no meaning left to the term “intelligent cause”. And therefore, ID tells us nothing at all about the cause of life, the universe, and everything that can be supported by the evidence.
Yes, yes, I know you keep saying this. And others keep correcting you that such a position (i) is unnecessary, because we can -- and various scientific fields do -- work just fine dealing with the concept of intelligence without pinning down a definitive definition, and (ii) demonstrates a misplaced hyperskepticism, as well as a double-standard that you seem unwilling to apply to other fields. Just because you keep saying ID is vacuous doesn't make it so. Either you don't understand ID or you are playing a double standard.Eric Anderson
July 4, 2013
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'I'm not sure why ID proponents don't realize that they believe human beings were also designed by a real intelligent agent, yet this doesn't disqualify us from being intelligent per se!]' Indeed, we do believe we are designed by an intelligent agent, but the analogy implicit in your statement is false. Software is a kind of algorithm, isn't it. Its scope is designed by its creator, and it is totally passive, there is no mystery as to its dynamism, the source of its life and operation. Not so with human beings, however, since our personal volition often plays a key and palpable part in the functioning of our intelligence, namely, most notably in the choice of our assumptions. So, our analytical intelligence is dynamic, and subject to endless, subjective, 'ad hoc' modification, a mystery to the atheist, who simply avoids the issue all together by conflating 'mind' with 'meat'. There is nothing to indicate that it is merely a more sophisticated, 'clockwork' intelligence. Hence, the similitude of the computer with the human mind has a very distinct limit; the extent to which our intelligence is designed is steeped in mystery, in the paradox of divine providence and free will. Philip has posted a report of a QM study, which apparently attests to the reality of free will, while we know that nothing happens without God's 'say-so'. Moreover, evidently, free will is, itself, bound up with the mystery of life, itself. So, when we disparage the notion of a computer having intelligence, we in no wise disparage the nature of the personal intelligence given to us by the Creator, to develop. I expect we would still all be familiar with the Christian precept of docility to the teaching, prompting, guidance of the Holy Spirit, who informs our assumptions by direct infusion and via material information media; and the option to reject such divine instruction in either form, or, generally, a mixture of both, whether consciously or subliminally. With the computer, the agent is the sole arbiter.Axel
July 4, 2013
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The above quote by Meyer was important enough that I made it a separate discussion: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/id-is-a-quasi-scientific-historical-speculation-with-strong-metaphysical-overtones/ Comments on the Meyer quote may be offered there. Thanks to all the readers for their comments.scordova
July 4, 2013
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RDFishguy:
The broad connotations of the word “intelligence” in the minds of most people include consciousness, metaphysical libertarianism, and the ability to solve novel problems in varied domains.
Prove it. Why do you get to just baldly assert stuff?
These are specific claims that cannot be supported empirically in the context of ID.
Great, make a bald assertion and then stick it on ID. So RDFishguy sets up a strawman and then attacks it! Well done, now run along and play RD...Joe
July 4, 2013
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It’s not so much that I disagree, but rather I object to the equivocations. You don’t equivocate – you’re willing to drop the claim to scientific status and you make the metaphysical commitments explicit, and I think that is exactly the right way to go.
Oh my goodness, we agree better than I realized!
The harm for me is that once people think they’ve co-opted the status of science for a belief in a deity, some will try to impose moral dogma and use “science” as a rationale. That’s always a recipe for disaster. Cheers, RDFish
I don't have much to say regarding that issue. I'm ambivalent to it, because if there is a Designer, maybe the question of ID being science or not might be a smaller question in the scheme of things.
Sal – Thanks for posting!
And thank you for writing it! I took your side in your recent debate with StephenB because I think it proper to acknowledge what we can an cannot formally prove. I feel mostly ambivalent and occasionally uncomfortable calling ID science for the reasons I mention here: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/good-and-bad-reasons-for-rejecting-id/ It does not mean I reject ID as truth claim, but it is a truth claim that may not even in principle (especially if we are dealing with an Intelligence with ultimate free will) be subject to repeatable observation and experiments, hence its potential to be defined as science is dubious unless of course we redefine what most people view as science. Consider this by Stephen Meyer:
Perhaps, however, one just really does not want to call intelligent design a scientific theory. Perhaps one prefers the designation "quasi-scientific historical speculation with strong metaphysical overtones." Fine. Call it what you will, provided the same appellation is applied to other forms of inquiry that have the same methodological and logical character and limitations. In particular, make sure both design and descent are called "quasi-scientific historical speculation with strong metaphysical overtones." This may seem all very pointless, but that in a way is just the point. As Laudan has argued, the question whether a theory is scientific is really a red herring. What we want to know is not whether a theory is scientific but whether a theory is true or false, well confirmed or not, worthy of our belief or not. One can not decide the truth of a theory or the warrant for believing a theory to be true by applying a set of abstract criteria that purport to tell in advance how all good scientific theories are constructed or what they will in general look like.
scordova
July 4, 2013
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