Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Reality: The Wall You Smack Into When You’re Wrong

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I’ve been in trial the last couple of weeks, and I am just now coming up for air.  I see the debate has continued in my absence.  Alas, yet another confirmation (as if another were needed) that I am not indispensible.  Thank you to all of our posters, commenters and lurkers, who continue to make this site one of the most robust stops on the internet vis-à-vis the intelligent design debate.

 We live in a post-modern world, and the defense position at trial last week brought that dreary fact forcefully to mind. 

Without going into detail, the trial was about a contract my clients (the plaintiffs) signed in 1996.  The defendant received the benefits of his bargain and was content for 11 years.  Then, when the contract turned to my clients’ benefit in 2007, the defendant refused to pay.  Instead, he hired one of the largest law firms in the world (over 600 lawyers) to get him out of the contract, and these last several months his team of lawyers and paralegals (six strong at last count) have submitted literally hundreds of documents to the court in a feverish effort to convince the judge that – though the defendant said nothing for 11 years – the contract was unenforceable from the beginning. 

Well, that is not entirely accurate.  I should say this is the position on which the defendant finally settled after various other theories failed.  At first he claimed the contract was valid, but my clients’ calculations were wrong, and they owed him money.  When that didn’t work he claimed the entire transaction was a sham, and he knew it from the beginning.  When it came to light he had certified the transaction to the IRS in 1997, his position changed yet again.  Now, his position was that he thought the transaction was valid in the beginning, but after he reviewed the documents in connection with this case he learned he had been hoodwinked.  The transaction was always a sham, but he just hadn’t known it all these years. 

 In golf a “mulligan” is the friendly practice of letting a player get a “do over” if his tee shot goes awry.  I suppose the defendant’s lawyers thought I was going to give them a mulligan and not mention at trial the varied and inconsistent positions they had taken.  But over a million dollars was at stake, so I decided I would pass on the mulligan, and when I had the defendant on the stand the cross went something like this:

 Q.  So if I understand what you’re saying, you didn’t know there was any irregularity with the transaction when you certified it to the IRS in 1996.

 A.  That’s right.

 Q.  In fact, you’re telling me that you never knew there was the slightest problem with this transaction until you reviewed the documents produced in connection with this case.

 A.  That’s right.  I never knew.

 Q.  I have just placed in front of you the sworn affidavit you signed last September.  Do you see paragraph three there?  It says, “I believe [here I raised my voice for effect], AND HAVE ALWAYS BELIEVED, the transaction was a sham.”  My question for you is this:  Just now you testified under oath that you NEVER believed there was anything wrong with the transaction.  But last September you swore out an affidavit in which you said you ALWAYS believed the transaction was a sham.  Help me out here.  How can both of those sworn statements be true at the same time?

 This, of course, is the trial lawyer’s dream scene.  He has caught the other party making statements that simply cannot be reconciled.  Both may be false (which is the case here), but there is no way both can be true.  Needless to say, my clients are happy today.

What does this have to do with post-modernism?  Just this.  Over the last few months I have often wondered if the other side really believed they would be able to get away with just “making it up.”  That question was answered by an incident that occurred on the second day of trial.  My paralegal was in the back of a crowded courthouse elevator.  One of the defendant’s lawyers and his paralegal were in the front, and apparently they did not know my paralegal was there, because she overheard them talking about the case.  The lawyer said, “They are presenting their version of reality and we are presenting a competing version of reality.  The case will come down to which version the judge finds compelling.” 

I never thought of myself as “presenting a version of reality.”  My goal was to just get the facts out about what happened, because I have always believed that if the judge knew what actually happened we would win.  It turns out that I am hopelessly old-fashioned about these things.  In our post-modern world there are no immutable “facts” for the judge to know.  There are only competing “narratives,” and she will make her decision based upon which narrative she finds most “compelling.”  And in developing his “narrative,” a lawyer need feel no obligation to quaint outdated notions such as “what actually happened.”  There is no “what actually happened,” because reality is not fixed, objective and immutable.  No, reality is malleable, subjective and constructed. 

I like to say that reality is the practical wall you smack into when you’re theory is wrong.  And thankfully trials are nothing if not practical endeavors.  No matter what a post-modernist might say about “all reality is subjectively constructed,” the truth of the matter is they all look both ways before crossing the street.  And it turns out that judges really do try to determine “what actually happened,” and another name for “presenting a competing version of reality” is “lying under oath,” which judges tend to frown on (as the defendant found out to his dismay).

I hope our opponents who post comments on this site will keep this story in mind.  I hope they think about it the next time they are tempted to write in response to one of the arguments an ID proponent makes, “Well, that’s your reality.  My reality is different.”  It is such a hackneyed, trite and dreary expression.  Worse, it is based on a self-evidently false premise, and, as the defendant found out, it will get you in trouble if you take it seriously.

Comments
Seversky,
I disagree with you for the reasons I have given before. My point has always been that there is no empirical way to decide between our two perspectives. If you have such a test then let’s hear it.
Then you have no argument that God is unjust, other than your own personal whims, which amount to nothing real or actual.Clive Hayden
June 6, 2010
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Toronto: It is true that our behaviour is critically important, our behaviour -- by thought, words and deeds -- towards others [and God] in light of the truth and right that we know, or should know. For instance, when he began his essay on human understanding Locke noted a few pungent observations that don't usually appear in discussions of his ideas [as should by now be sadly familiar onlookers; we been had . . . ], but which plainly strongly shaped his views:
Men have reason to be well satisfied with what God hath thought fit for them, since he hath given them (as St. Peter says [NB: i.e. 2 Pet 1:2 - 4]) pana pros zoen kaieusebeian, whatsoever is necessary for the conveniences of life and information of virtue; and has put within the reach of their discovery, the comfortable provision for this life, and the way that leads to a better. How short soever their knowledge may come of an universal or perfect comprehension of whatsoever is, it yet secures their great concernments [Prov 1: 1 - 7], that they have light enough to lead them to the knowledge of their Maker, and the sight of their own duties [cf Rom 1 - 2, Ac 17, etc, etc]. Men may find matter sufficient to busy their heads, and employ their hands with variety, delight, and satisfaction, if they will not boldly quarrel with their own constitution, and throw away the blessings their hands are filled with, because they are not big enough to grasp everything . . . It will be no excuse to an idle and untoward servant [Matt 24:42 - 51], who would not attend his business by candle light, to plead that he had not broad sunshine. The Candle that is set up in us [Prov 20:27] shines bright enough for all our purposes . . . If we will disbelieve everything, because we cannot certainly know all things, we shall do muchwhat as wisely as he who would not use his legs, but sit still and perish, because he had no wings to fly. [Introduction, section 5]
Every educated person in the modern west should -- as a matter of plain intellectual integrity -- seriously and fairly address on the merits not only the implications of the obviously binding nature of ought [and the closely related issue of the reality of evil], but also the core evidence surrounding the person, claims and life of Jesus of Nazareth, as well as the wider issues on grounding his or her worldview in light of a reasonably wide cluster of key warranted, credible truths. To do less than that is utterly inexcusable, especially in one who stands up in public on issues linked to these matters. G'day GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 26, 2010
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Seversky- "I do not believe in the Christian God, either just of vengeful. I believe we are the authors of the problems we face and we must look to ourselves for the solutions. I also believe that people should be free to follow whatever faith they choose or follow no faith at all without fear of oppression and I would hope all practice the same toleration and charity to their fellows." No one is saying we aren't the authors of the problems we face.Phaedros
May 25, 2010
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It has nothing to do with group affiliation it has to do with the Truth of salvation through grace which Jesus alone brought.
Those who worship Brahma might think that you are being a wee bit sectarian.Adel DiBagno
May 25, 2010
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Toronto- "If there is a god, you will get your just reward regardless of whether you are a Christian, Muslim, Hindu, atheist, etc. It will be your behaviour, not group affiliation that determines your worth." It has nothing to do with group affiliation it has to do with the Truth of salvation through grace which Jesus alone brought.Phaedros
May 25, 2010
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Toronto- "Humans have walked the Earth without Christianity for hundreds of thousands of years and yet have survived and built prosperous and scientific nations." What prosperous AND scientific nations are you talking about? What's your definition of prosperous, how do you quantify it? I have never heard serious people talk about any nations being both prosperous and scientific pre A.D. Are you talking about Atlantis?Phaedros
May 25, 2010
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kairosfocus @ 307,
5 –> So, the pivotal issue is not whether you specifically know about Jesus by name, but whether you have responded to the light and the truth you have had, seeking and persisting penitently in the path of he good, despite your failings. “To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.”
I agree with this. If there is a god, you will get your just reward regardless of whether you are a Christian, Muslim, Hindu, atheist, etc. It will be your behaviour, not group affiliation that determines your worth. If there is a heaven, it's open to all, not just those who believe in an absolute truth.Toronto
May 25, 2010
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Toronto: Pardon, but I first need to respond with some questions of my own. Do you know what you endorsed above? What Seversky has been doing for weeks now? What the moral and cultural implications of evolutionary materialism, its amorality and radical relativism are, and have been known to be for millennia? If so, why it is that you have seen it fit only to try to hop on me? I think you need to realise what I have been dealing with, and thus why I have felt it necessary at length to point out to onlookers just what Seversky has been saying in aggregate, correcting imbalances and misleading claims. The rhetoric of the New Atheists, which he has been championing, is utterly one- sided, and too often inaccurate, hatefully denigratory and destructive. So, "you are hitting back first" does not cut it, especially where what I have had to say in correction has been well warranted, as shown again step by step today. Now, you have listed a series of questions above. I will comment on several of them, in an order that seems to make sense to me: 1 --> Actually, today China may be the nation with the most Christians in it, or close. Certainly it is the outstanding case of the gospel rapidly spreading from within. (And, if things remain on track, China, with a critical mass of Christians, will take over world leadership within 30 - 50 years.) 2 --> I am not prepared to assert so confidently on the deep past of humanity, as we were not there and are reconstructing a past before record. We should be humble and open minded about the limitations of, circularities involved in, and extremely inferential and at best provisional -- at worst, outright mythical -- nature of our claimed knowledge of the deep past (whether or not we want to label it "science"). [The ongoing climate scandal is a good paradigm for the difficulties, institutional politics and issues involved.] 3 --> In any case the issues of moral choice, power to love or be indifferent or selfish, thence sin and redemption are primordial, and the Biblical teaching is that all along God has made a way for men and nations to find reconciliation with him by the light they have had. (Cases like Job, Melchizedek and Abraham are there for a reason. So are cases of nations and cities that willfully defied God, became plagues on the earth and were destroyed.) 4 --> The pivotal point was the coming of Christ in accordance with the prophecies of the scriptures, centuries ahead of time; who made up the "paid in full" on the access to reconciliation with God for all men everywhere, and a release of spiritual power under that name that has been transformational for 2,000 years. Here is the NT key teaching on this general access to God issue:
Rom 2:6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
5 --> So, the pivotal issue is not whether you specifically know about Jesus by name, but whether you have responded to the light and the truth you have had, seeking and persisting penitently in the path of he good, despite your failings. "To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." 6 --> But equally, "for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger." So, the decisive question, whether for me or you, or for any men of any time and place is this: what have you done about the light you have had, and the truth you know or should know, starting with the pricking voice of conscience? The warning is this:
Jn 3:19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
7 --> And so, plainly God did not "deny humans [the benefits of] Christ for hundreds of thousands of years." For those benefits have always been accessible as long as men were willing to heed the truth and light they have had, penitently turning to and persisting in the way of truth and right; by voice of conscience, by dint of the import of the deciding and knowing mind and by dint of the testimony of the world around us to its Root. 8 --> Similarly, the issue is not whether your culture is labelled "Christian," today, but how you respond to the truth and the right you do or should know under God. 9 --> Of which the breakthrough of Jesus is widely accessible today, and is a challenge to those who have access to this level of liberating, breakthrough truth. G'day GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 24, 2010
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kaiorosfocus @ 305, Humans have walked the Earth without Christianity for hundreds of thousands of years and yet have survived and built prosperous and scientific nations. Why was Christianity not required? Why if there is a God, did he deny humans Christ for hundreds of thousands of years? The majority of people on this planet are not Christians and yet behave with the same good intentions to one another as Christians. Why? How is it possible for a non-Christian nation, i.e. China, to be growing faster than the Christian nations as if God somehow favoured a country not based on Christianity? I am not enraged as you claim Seversky is, I am simply asking questions, as I believe he is. When you answer people in this fashion, some may get intimidated and stop asking questions. Do you want that to happen?Toronto
May 24, 2010
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8] The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. While such selective hyperskepticism has been popular and supported by certain skepticism-driven schools of theology ever since the late C18, it is manifestly and utterly unwarranted. On evidence that any reasonably educated or Internet savvy person can fairly easily access. 9] There is, I think, no question that the Founders wanted church and state kept entirely separate. Of course, this is a secularist distortion of the true position of the Framers and the public who passed the Constitution in referenda, as expressed in the first amendment to the US Constitution, passed with it as the first cluster of rights in the bill of rights:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
In effect, the Framers adapted the cuius regio, eius religio concept enshrined in treaties signed after much bloody conflict at Augsburg in 1555 and Westphalia in 1648 to federal-republican circumstances, by stipulating: [1] there would be no federal church of the USA (contrast, say, the Anglican Church in Britain, and Lutheran, Calvinist/Reformed and Catholic churches in Europe) -- in fact [2] Congress and associated federal bodies have no proper jurisdiction on establishment, so can make no law on that subject; [3] Congress may not prohibit the free exercise of religion and commonly associated behaviours: speech, publication, assembly, petition for redress. Thus, in a republican context, the right of the local state to establish its own state church was protected [nine of thirteen states has just such state churches at the time], and the rights of dissenters were protected. Backing this up, the 10th Amendment reserves rights not explicitly delegated to the Federal Government to the states and their people. The intended effect would be that in the local community, the majority sentiment would shape its general religious tone, but the minority down to the individual would be heard and protected. Liberty, in short. Sadly, this wise balance has long since been materially subverted through clever advocacy, distortions of history, and activist courts imposing and in effect establishing decidedly minority secularist opinions on matters where the courts strictly have no proper jurisdiction. 10] Nothwithstanding the general progress made within the two last centuries in favour of this branch of liberty, & the full establishment of it, in some parts of our Country, there remains in others a strong bias towards the old error, that without some sort of alliance or coalition between Gov’ & Religion neither can be duly supported . . . in a Gov’ of opinion, like ours, the only effectual guard must be found in the soundness and stability of the general opinion on the subject. Every new & successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance. See how Madison is being misread and wrenched into saying what he plainly did not intend to say? His objection is to the potentially tyrannical establishment of a denomination, not to the worldview underpinnings of morality, virtue among the people at large and just government. In our day, of course, the denomination most likely to be de facto established is: evolutionary materialist secular humanism. Which is (as Seversky has been forced to admit): amoral. 11] Small wonder then that Congress found itself able to ratify the Treaty of Tripoli in 1797 which included Article 11 . . . . As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion . . . This particular ill-founded distortion of history has long since passed its sell-by date. To begin with, it was evidently not present in the Arabic version [!!!], and was not in the second version of the treaty [once the balance of power had shifted after American naval and military campaigns . . . ], nor are similar clauses to be found in treaties with other of the Barbary Coast states. But, more directly on point, it is best understood in its context as affirming that the US is not a Nation with a state-church, parallel to the more traditional European nations or the islamic ones. By sharpest contrast, it is not at all irrelevant to note that as late as a century later, the US Supreme Court, in its 1892 Trinity decision, in making a supportive historical and legal point on the nature of American civilisation, prior to ruling on the matter of striking down the application of an anti-cheap labour law to forbid a church in NY from hiring an overseas minister, commented that based on historic legal documents -- from Columbus to the Colonial Charters to the US Founding era to the state constitutions and legal rulings -- and the free and abundant popular expressions of the American people:
"These and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation."
In short, there is a world of difference between a de facto or institutionalised alliance between a denomination and a state, and the moral-spiritual underpinnings of its culture that finds organic expression in its historical documents, events, sentiments of the people, and the associated flow of its culture. 12] I take out of order: I have been reading recently about the boarding schools, run by Christians, to which Native Americans were sent in a misguided effort to enforce cultural assimilation And, what these schools show is a failure to understand and help in a way that appreciates the impact of cultural roots. Well-intentioned but mistaken and sometimes abusive. Sort of like how all too many science teachers are currently pumping evolutionary materialism down the throats of students in schools in the mistaken view that this is what science education requires. A view aided and abetted, unfortunately by a great many leading members of no less an institution than the US National Academy of Science, acting as de facto magisterium. 13] I would imagine those words quoted above would resonate with kairosfocus, given the history of slaves in the Caribbean. Whatever the benefits or noble intentions or high moral purpose of religion, history has shown it is practiced by fallible human beings, some of whom are all too easily corrupted by power. True enough, but also at least as true of ever so many who are advocating evolutionary materialist secular humanism across our civilisation. With this crucial difference. As William Provine asserted in the now notorious 1998 Darwin Day speech at the University of Tennessee [!!!]:
Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent. . . . . The first 4 implications are so obvious to modern naturalistic evolutionists that I will spend little time defending them . . . humans are locally determined systems that make choices. They have, however, no free will . . .
Such ill-founded, self-refuting, and utterly amoral notions promoted in the name of science are utterly destructive to the vital moral fabric of civil society. As we have been warned in no uncertain terms, ever since the days of Plato's The Laws, Bk X, in 360 BC. 14] The role of Christianity in the history of the US has always been ambivalent. On the one hand, there have been sectarian impulses towards bigotry and oppression, on the other, a struggle for tolerance and diversity. Christianity was both invoked to justify slavery and in the vanguard of the fight against it. In short, the Christian people of the United States have historically been what people are in all ages: finite, fallible, fallen and prone to willful hard-hearted sin. And, in just those times that most needed it, brave men and women stood up, Bibles in hand, to rebuke and call the nation to repentance and reformation, thence liberation and positive transformation. Which is precisely what Seversky needs to lay aside his rage and addiction to one sided advocacy, so he can see clearly. ============= Instead of all the above having to rebut a litany of one sided hyperskeptical rhetorical points designed more to polarise and alienate, why not let us instead address the Warranted, Credible Truths approach to soundly grounding a worldview? GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 24, 2010
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2] The Founding Fathers themselves were unquestionably Christian and wholehearted in their faith. But it was also a wise thing to be in those days, at least in public. Remember that Edinburgh medical student, Thomas Aikenhead, was hanged for the blasphemy of expressing atheist views in private as late as January 8th 1697 . . . Notice how Seversky artfully tries to indict Christians with violence and tyranny through guilt by one-sided association, thus refusing to acknowledge the balance of the record and the teachings that have led Christians time and again across the long centuries to be leaders in reformation, amelioration and liberation. Of course, the point of this excerpt is that there is an imagined insincerity in the professed Christianity of the Founders, for fear of being hounded to death. This is veiled slander. While Aikenhead was the last man to be executed for blasphemy under Anglosaxon Jusrisprudence, there was plainly a reason why in a polity that was in 1697 overwhelmingly Christian, it was felt that such needed to be reformed and was reformed; correcting one of he sins of Christendom. Namely, while amorality is indeed a threat to the good order of society and often expresses itself in willfully disrespectful impiety -- notice, Seversky did not tell us the story of Alcibiades whose evident impieties and threatened trial led to his defection to Sparta and betrayal of his home city -- mere words are not just grounds for judicial action. As well, over the next 150 years, the general excessive severity of penalties was sharply curtailed, with for instance Thomas Foxwell Buxton trying to abolish the death penalty in the 1820s. 3] The Wikipedia entry summarizes [religious affiliation [of the American founders] as follows: Lambert (2003) has examined the religious affiliations and beliefs of the Founders. Some of the 1787 delegates had no affiliation. The others were Protestants except for three Roman Catholics . . . Talk about the telling significance of the first item in a list. What Wiki did was to stress the status of perhaps 2 - 3 delegates, de-emphasising the actual balance of fact that, credibly, over 50 of 55 framers were demonstrably Christian in their commitments. [Wiki, after considerable verbiage, finally acknowledges at least 49. This of course immediately implies that the overwhelming majority of the founders and framers were acknowledged Christians, and all were deeply influenced by a Bible-anchored cultural milieu, for all its failings to fully live up to its ideals and values. Which is exactly what the May 1776 call to penitence shows.] 4] We know that some expressed strong views about religion. For example, Thomas Paine: . . . . "Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man" . . . . "It is not a God, just and good, but a devil, under the name of God, that the Bible describes." Seversky, first, neatly omits that even his fellow Deist, Ben Franklin, sought to correct Paine's intemperateness in his The Age of Reason:
were you to succeed, do you imagine any good would be done by it? You yourself may find it easy to live a virtuous life, without the assistance afforded by religion; you having a clear perception of the advantages of virtue, and the disadvantages of vice, and possessing a strength of resolution sufficient to enable you to resist common temptations. But think how great a portion of mankind consists of weak and ignorant men and women, and of inexperienced, inconsiderate youth of both sexes, who have need of the motives of religion to restrain them from vice, to support their virtue, and retain them in the practice of it till it becomes habitual, which is the great point for its security. And perhaps you are indebted to her originally, that is, to your religious education, for the habits of virtue upon which you now justly value yourself. You might easily display your excellent talents of reasoning upon a less hazardous subject, and thereby obtain a rank with our most distinguished authors. For among us it is not necessary, as among the Hottentots, that a youth, to be raised into the company of men, should prove his manhood by beating his mother. I would advise you, therefore, not to attempt unchaining the tiger, but to burn this piece before it is seen by any other person; whereby you will save yourself a great deal of mortification by the enemies it may raise against you, and perhaps a good deal of regret and repentance. If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be if without it . . . [over 100 million ghosts from the century just past, and the hundreds of millions more of innocent victims of abortion on demand moan out to us just how much more so]
As the cited texts and general substance of the Scriptures demonstrate, Paine -- a notorious skeptic -- is simply willfully slandering the God of the Bible. A path that is sadly familiar in the tactics of today's new atheists; who would do well to heed the warning of Franklin and the moans of a hundred million ghosts. 5] Thomas Jefferson’s views are better known: Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. Notice the locus of Jefferson's concern: abusive institutions that build awry, rather than underlying spiritual foundation. Millions is of course a gross exaggeration, but it is indubitably true that thousands were abused in the name of their being heretics and threats to the community. A sad fact of the sins of Christendom. But equally, one matched by the sins of any number of other movements, not least secularist evolutionary materialist and neo-pagan ones in the past hundred years. For, evil is most successfully done in the name of a cause that men perceive as good, thence "let us do evil that good may come." The scriptures are firm in rebuke to this Machiavellianism [who BTW, rejected the ethic of love, mercy and forbearance in the gospels and sought inspiration in the "manliness" of pagan times], in the voice of prophet and apostle alike:
Isa 5:7 The vineyard of the LORD Almighty is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah are the garden of his delight. And he looked for justice, but saw bloodshed; for righteousness, but heard cries of distress. 8 Woe to you who add house to house and join field to field till no space is left and you live alone in the land. 9 The LORD Almighty has declared in my hearing: "Surely the great houses will become desolate, the fine mansions left without occupants [Oh, Jamaica, oh America, o world in this day of financial crisis and mortgage institution collapse!] . . . . 12 They have harps and lyres at their banquets, tambourines and flutes and wine, but they have no regard for the deeds of the LORD, no respect for the work of his hands . . . . 18 Woe to those who draw sin along with cords of deceit, and wickedness as with cart ropes . . . . 20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. 21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight. Rom 3:8Why not say—as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say—"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved.
It is hardly fair to the Scriptures to suggest they are the fault when those who did admitted evils in the name of good, did so in explicit defiance of the same scriptures. Instead, let us acknowledge the fault in our own deceitful too often willfully evil hearts, and let us penitently heed the correction that calls us to the right. 6] Question with boldness even the existence of a god [God]; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear. How telling is the substitution of a lower case letter! Jefferson, of course is saying little more than that blind faith is of little intellectual merit, a sentiment that a great many educated Christians will at once agree with. Where he errs, is to suggest and encourage by rhetorical flourish, that bold hyperskepticism that is actually the very opposite of the "reason" that it professes. This, Simon Greenleaf of Harvard Law School aptly called "the error of the skeptic." Far better would be a basic respect that reckons fairly with the evidence from C1 - 21 that not only is the gospel faith not founded on "cleverly invented stories," but that quite literally millions of penitent sinners from all walks of life up to and including leading lights in our Civilisation have met and known God in the face of the Risen Christ, and in so doing have found blessed relief, healing and transformation of life, including the courage and vision to lead in reformation and liberation. As the call to penitence of May 1776 exemplifies. 7] History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. Of course, this is an objection to undue establishment of religious denominations such that a magisterium in effect dictates to civil authority. It is a demonisation- laced strawman attack to then twist this into the notion that gospel ethics are an underpinning of tyranny, especially if multiplied by the further intellectual crime of suppressing the balance of the history of the positive contribution of gospel ethics to liberation and the roots of modern democracy. And, the history of the past 100 years underscores that evolutionary materialist secularism is the functional equivalent of a religious view, and can provide the ideological anchor for tyranny in the academy, the state, the courtroom or the nation alike. A man looking to his right on being warned to "look out!" is all too vulnerable to a fell blow from his now blind side, the left. [ . . . ]kairosfocus
May 24, 2010
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Onlookers: Re Seversky (and Toronto, who endorsed him) . . . We again see the sadly manifest underlying imbalance, obvious bitterness and intemperateness that have led Seversky -- after hundreds of posts -- to be still unable to acknowledge the definitive core of Biblical morality. And, harking back to the focal point of the original post, we see how the construction of an alternative radically relativist perceived reality ("my truth") sets up a collision with reality. First and foremost, Seversky has now several times over admitted that his evolutionary materialism can provide no ground for morality, other than one's feelings [which, notoriously, are utterly unreliable as a guide to serious action] and "consensus," which last boils down to the political and rhetorical balances among the power brokers of a given time and place. In short, his morality boils down to what Plato skewered as utter amorality in his The Laws Bk X 2,350 years ago: the highest right is might. The root of such historically blood-drenched amorality, of course is that Seversky's worldview has in it no foundational IS that has any power to ground OUGHT. The only such IS who can ground ought is the good Creator God. But, as we have seen, Seversky is hard-bent on indicting our civilisation's candidate for that job description, YHWH, as a genocidal, capricious moral monster, and those who believe in him as "accomplices." That is, he is championing the agenda of the sophomoric new atheists, and echoing the intemperate, polarising behaviour of the village atheists of yore. So, though sad, it is not particularly surprising to see him trot out a litany of the sins of Christendom [including America] and complaints against those sins, without being able to find it in himself to acknowledge the key balancing truths and facts that I pointed out. As though the fact of national sins and need for repentance and reformation do anything but underscore the significance of the call to penitence as a condition of restoration of the blessings of liberty in the May 1776 proclamation by the founding Congress of the USA:
Desirous, at the same time, to have people of all ranks and degrees duly impressed with a solemn sense of God's superintending providence, and of their duty, devoutly to rely, in all their lawful enterprizes, on his aid and direction, Do earnestly recommend, that Friday, the Seventeenth day of May next, be observed by the said colonies as a day of humiliation, fasting, and prayer; that we may, with united hearts, confess and bewail our manifold sins and transgressions, and, by a sincere repentance and amendment of life, appease his righteous displeasure, and, through the merits and mediation of Jesus Christ, obtain his pardon and forgiveness; humbly imploring his assistance to frustrate the cruel purposes of our unnatural enemies; . . . that it may please the Lord of Hosts, the God of Armies, to animate our officers and soldiers with invincible fortitude, to guard and protect them in the day of battle, and to crown the continental arms, by sea and land, with victory and success: Earnestly beseeching him to bless our civil rulers, and the representatives of the people, in their several assemblies and conventions; to preserve and strengthen their union, to inspire them with an ardent, disinterested love of their country; to give wisdom and stability to their counsels; and direct them to the most efficacious measures for establishing the rights of America on the most honourable and permanent basis—That he would be graciously pleased to bless all his people in these colonies with health and plenty, and grant that a spirit of incorruptible patriotism, and of pure undefiled religion, may universally prevail; and this continent be speedily restored to the blessings of peace and liberty, and enabled to transmit them inviolate to the latest posterity . . . [Note the clear, direct echo in the structure of the US Constitution, which set about delivering on the promise of sound new government under God:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America . . . . [Main Body, Arts I - VII] . . . . Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth. In Witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names. . . . . [AMENDMENTS].
In short, the first documents the context in which we should understand the second.]
But, a half-truth is often a key means to a whole deception. So, as a first corrective to the above unbalanced litany of sins of American Christendom, let us notice how in particular Seversky resolutely ignored the import of the true birth certificate of the USA, the just cited May 1776 call to penitent prayer under the weight of the judgement of consequences on America's sins, that set up the context for the much better known declaration of independence six weeks later. (Notice, especially, how he is unable to overturn the credibility of the document or the trove of related documents that make the point clear, or the echo of the May 1776 vision in the core structure of the US Constitution of 1787; instead, he seeks to distract, to distort and to denigrate, thence divide and dismiss. How sad.) As a second corrective, let us recognise how the July 1776 Declaration is explicitly framed on and historically rooted in the Bible-rooted Reformation championed concept of the double-covenant of nationhood and government under our common good, Creator God who made us all in his image and appointed government as the defence of the civil peace of justice. Thus, separation from a previous regime and establishment of new government is grounded in material breach of covenant manifested in "a long train of abuses and usurpations" and the resulting need for legitimate representatives of a nascent people -- however flawed in themselves as finite, fallible, morally fallen human beings -- to stand up for justice under God. Let us observe key facets of that declaration, on these insights:
When . . . it becomes necessary for one people . . . to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God [a phrase that echoes, inter alia, the 1581 Calvinist Dutch declaration of Independence from Spain and the Inquisition, cf. previously linked; also cf the Divinely sanctioned separation of the northern tribes of Israel in 1 Kings 12:1 - 24, over precisely a question of unjust taxation and claimed absolute power] entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, [cf Rom 1:18 - 21, 2:14 - 15], that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these [NB: God-given] rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . . . We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions [Cf. Judges 11:27 and discussion in Locke, in light of the national day of penitence on May 17 previous, reflecting the import of Jonah 3 - 4 on how God looks at a penitent nation even on the brink of utter destruction for being a plague upon the earth . . . ], do, in the Name, and by the Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States . . . And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence [cf petitions of May 17], we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.
Now, I know this is -- nowadays -- a very unfamiliar way to understand the context and dynamics of the American founding. Given the rise in recent decades of radical evolutionary materialist, amoral, radically relativist secular humanism that seeks to substitute persuasiveness of a cleverly devised narrative for accuracy to reality as the criterion of received truth, that is (sadly) not surprising. With these reflections in mind, let us now turn to several inadvertently instructive points from Seversky's impassioned diatribe against God and his "accomplices" just above at 301: 1] The sad truth is that the early English colonists had imported some of the religious and social divisions and oppressions they had sought to escape by traveling to the New World. Precisely. That is why they saw themselves as justly under the judgement of God and in need of penitence if they were to turn the corner and set a foundation for a new day in which they could enjoy the blessings of peace and liberty with abundance and justice. Indeed, a telling echo of this sentiment is found in Abraham Lincoln's 2nd Inaugural address of 1865, scarce six weeks before he was murdered by a bitter-ender:
On the occasion corresponding to this four years ago all thoughts were anxiously directed to an impending civil war. All dreaded it, all sought to avert it. While the inaugural address was being delivered from this place, devoted altogether to saving the Union without war, insurgent agents were in the city seeking to destroy it without war--seeking to dissolve the Union and divide effects by negotiation. Both parties deprecated war, but one of them would make war rather than let the nation survive, and the other would accept war rather than let it perish, and the war came. One-eighth of the whole population were colored slaves, not distributed generally over the Union, but localized in the southern part of it. These slaves constituted a peculiar and powerful interest. All knew that this interest was somehow the cause of the war. To strengthen, perpetuate, and extend this interest was the object for which the insurgents would rend the Union even by war, while the Government claimed no right to do more than to restrict the territorial enlargement of it. Neither party expected for the war the magnitude or the duration which it has already attained. Neither anticipated that the cause of the conflict might cease with or even before the conflict itself should cease. Each looked for an easier triumph, and a result less fundamental and astounding. Both read the same Bible and pray to the same God, and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces, but let us judge not, that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered. That of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has His own purposes. "Woe unto the world because of offenses; for it must needs be that offenses come, but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh." If we shall suppose that American slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether." With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.
In this, we see the true Christian spirit, and the true balance in the appreciation of the justice, severity, sovereignty, providence and goodness of God. What a contrast to the scarce-veiled rage, ingratitude and one sided litany in 301 above! Also, let us carefully note how Lincoln understands that through the hardness of men's fallen and fallible hearts sometimes offenses must be tolerated or gradually ameliorated in a culture [on pain of imposing even worse evils in the attempt to suppress an admitted evil -- i.e the wisdom in the saying that "one cannot legislate morality but had better regulate behaviour" which BTW is apparently NOT due to Franklin]. But if men are stubborn in clinging to such hardness even in the teeth of the general heart-softening impact of the gospel, there comes a day of reckoning. [ . . . ]kairosfocus
May 24, 2010
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Seversky @ 301, Nicely said.Toronto
May 23, 2010
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I think we owe kairosfocus a vote of thanks for such a fine, impassioned sermon but, bearing in mind that God loves truth, it behoves his followers to take a balanced view of the role of Christianity in the founding and growth of the United States. The sad truth is that the early English colonists had imported some of the religious and social divisions and oppressions they had sought to escape by traveling to the New World. We have only to look at the treatment of Quakers by the Puritans in New England for evidence that human beings do not escape their natures so easily. The Founding Fathers were well aware of the problem which is why they wanted to keep government right out of religion and vice versa. The Founding Fathers themselves were unquestionably Christian and wholehearted in their faith. But it was also a wise thing to be in those days, at least in public. Remember that Edinburgh medical student, Thomas Aikenhead, was hanged for the blasphemy of expressing atheist views in private as late as January 8th 1697. The philosopher David Hume was also believed to be atheist but was tolerated because he was smart enough to keep his views to himself. The Founders, although Christian as previously noted, certainly did not all follow the same version of Christianity. The Wikipedia entry summarizes as follows:
Lambert (2003) has examined the religious affiliations and beliefs of the Founders. Some of the 1787 delegates had no affiliation. The others were Protestants except for three Roman Catholics: C. Carroll, D. Carroll, and Fitzsimons. Among the Protestant delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 28 were Church of England (Episcopalian, after the Revolutionary War was won), eight were Presbyterians, seven were Congregationalists, two were Lutherans, two were Dutch Reformed, and two were Methodists, the total number being 49. Some of the more prominent Founding Fathers were anti-clerical or vocal about their opposition to organized religion, such as Thomas Jefferson[12][13] (who created the "Jefferson Bible"), and Benjamin Franklin[14]. However, other notable founders, such as Patrick Henry, were strong proponents of traditional religion. Several of the Founding Fathers considered themselves to be deists or held beliefs very similar to those of deists.[15]
We know that some expressed strong views about religion. For example, Thomas Paine:
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
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Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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It is not a God, just and good, but a devil, under the name of God, that the Bible describes.
Thomas Jefferson's views are better known:
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
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Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.
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History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
or
The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.
There is, I think, no question that the Founders wanted church and state kept entirely separate. Thomas Jefferson's views, again, are well known:
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.
He was not alone, though. James Madison also wrote:
Nothwithstanding the general progress made within the two last centuries in favour of this branch of liberty, & the full establishment of it, in some parts of our Country, there remains in others a strong bias towards the old error, that without some sort of alliance or coalition between Gov' & Religion neither can be duly supported: Such indeed is the tendency to such a coalition, and such its corrupting influence on both the parties, that the danger cannot be too carefully guarded agst.. And in a Gov' of opinion, like ours, the only effectual guard must be found in the soundness and stability of the general opinion on the subject. Every new & successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance. And I have no doubt that every new example, will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Gov will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together;
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That diabolical, hell-conceived principle of persecution rages among some; and to their eternal infamy, the clergy can furnish their quota of impas for such business..."
It was the Universal opinion of the Century preceding the last, that Civil Government could not stand without the prop of a religious establishment; and that the Christian religion itself, would perish if not supported by the legal provision for its clergy. The experience of Virginia conspiciously corroboates the disproof of both opinions. The Civil Government, tho' bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability and performs its functions with complete success; whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the TOTAL SEPARATION OF THE CHURCH FROM THE STATE.
Small wonder then that Congress found itself able to ratify the Treaty of Tripoli in 1797 which included Article 11:
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
The role of Christianity in the history of the US has always been ambivalent. On the one hand, there have been sectarian impulses towards bigotry and oppression, on the other, a struggle for tolerance and diversity. Christianity was both invoked to justify slavery and in the vanguard of the fight against it. I have been reading recently about the boarding schools, run by Christians, to which Native Americans were sent in a misguided effort to enforce cultural assimilation:
“Native America knows all too well the reality of the boarding schools,” writes Native American Bar Association President Richard Monette, who attended a North Dakota boarding school, “where recent generations learned the fine art of standing in line single-file for hours without moving a hair, as a lesson in discipline; where our best and brightest earned graduation certificates for homemaking and masonry; where the sharp rules of immaculate living were instilled through blistered hands and knees on the floor with scouring toothbrushes; where mouths were scrubbed with lye and chlorine solutions for uttering Native words.”
And this was happening after the emancipation of the slaves with all its fine intentions and rhetoric. I would imagine those words quoted above would resonate with kairosfocus, given the history of slaves in the Caribbean. Whatever the benefits or noble intentions or high moral purpose of religion, history has shown it is practiced by fallible human beings, some of whom are all too easily corrupted by power. I do not believe in the Christian God, either just of vengeful. I believe we are the authors of the problems we face and we must look to ourselves for the solutions. I also believe that people should be free to follow whatever faith they choose or follow no faith at all without fear of oppression and I would hope all practice the same toleration and charity to their fellows.Seversky
May 23, 2010
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6. "Do not murder" Murdering a human being is a capital sin.[35] --> Man is made in God's image and is of eternal worth. Murder is a defiance of and hateful disrespect to both God and one's neighbour,issuing in the stealing of his life. --> But murder does not start with gun, sword, knife, club, rock or poison etc, it starts with destructive false words, thoughts and hate --> This Jesus brings out with great force in the Sermon on the Mount. 7. "Do not commit adultery." Adultery is defined as sexual intercourse between a man and a married woman who is not his wife.[34] --> But also, the problem is far broader than this, and starts with the look of lust. 8. "Do not steal." According to the Talmud,[36] this commandment refers to kidnapping and not to theft of material property, as theft of property is forbidden elsewhere,[37] and it is not a capital offense. In this context it is to be taken as "do not kidnap." --> I think the Talmud is wrong on the general force --> Matthew Henry, as usual is wise and apt:
The eighth commandment concerns our own and our neighbour's wealth, estate, and goods: Thou shalt not steal, Exo_20:15. Though God had lately allowed and appointed them to spoil the Egyptians in a way of just reprisal, yet he did not intend that it should be drawn into a precedent and that they should be allowed thus to spoil one another. This command forbids us to rob ourselves of what we have by sinful spending, or of the use and comfort of it by sinful sparing, and to rob others by removing the ancient landmarks, invading our neighbour's rights, taking his goods from his person, or house, or field, forcibly or clandestinely, over-reaching in bargains, nor restoring what is borrowed or found, withholding just debts, rents, or wages, and (which is worst of all) to rob the public in the coin or revenue, or that which is dedicated to the service of religion.
--> Rape [by force or fraud or taking advantage of the young or simple -- and yes I include what we excuse as seduction here; especially when aided by alcohol or drugs], of course, is a peculiarly horrible and personally damaging variety of theft --> So is murder, but murder is so heinous that it is in a class of its own --> And the theft of another person's life begins with slanderous words that unjustly damage his or her reputation and livelihood 9. "Do not bear false witness against your neighbor" One must not bear false witness in a court of law or other proceeding. --> This speaks particularly to proceedings of justice, but he commandment carries the general force that one should not willfully deceive or slander those who are fellow members of the civil peace of justice --> This includes saying things that one does or should know better than to say {No prizes for guessing why I take today's sadly typical politicised rhetorical trifecta fallacy pattern of distraction, distortion, denigration and polarisation very very seriously] 10. "Do not covet your neighbor's wife [etc]" One is forbidden to desire and plan how one may obtain that which God has given to another. Maimonides makes a distinction in codifying the laws between the instruction given here in Exodus (You shall not covet) and that given in Deuteronomy (You shall not desire), according to which one does not violate the Exodus commandment unless there is a physical action associated with the desire, even if this is legally purchasing an envied object. --> The coveting or envious lust of the eyes that sees and wants that which it has no proper right to is utterly forbidden. --> Matthew Henry is again apt:
The tenth commandment strikes at the root: Thou shalt not covet, Exo_20:17. The foregoing commands implicitly forbid all desire of doing that which will be an injury to our neighbour; this forbids all inordinate desire of having that which will be a gratification to ourselves. “O that such a man's house were mine! Such a man's wife mine! Such a man's estate mine!” This is certainly the language of discontent at our own lot, and envy at our neighbour's; and these are the sins principally forbidden here. St. Paul, when the grace of God caused the scales to fall from his eyes, perceived that this law, Thou shalt not covet, forbade all those irregular appetites and desires which are the first-born of the corrupt nature, the first risings of the sin that dwelleth in us, and the beginnings of all the sin that is committed by us: this is that lust which, he says, he had not known the evil of, if this commandment, when it came to his conscience in the power of it, had not shown it to him, Rom_7:7. God give us all to see our face in the glass of this law, and to lay our hearts under the government of it!
--> Thus in a strange sense the last is in some ways the most important commandment, but until one has worked through the first nine, it becomes hard to see that! --> For, one does not get rid of a noxious weed until one has dug down to its last roots and pulled them up. --> And of course just because a woman or girl is not yet another man's wife gives us no excuse to lay a trap for and exploit her.>> ____________________ Rom 13 of course sums up the principle: do no harm to one's neighbour. But, with the greatest significance, vv. 8 - 10 are in the context of 1 - 7, in which the servant of God responsible to defend the civil peace of Justice is established, armed and charged to bear the sword in that defence; holding the power of just and due taxation -- not thieving in the name of doing the public good -- in that prime context. It is in that light that we should read Jonah 1 - 4 and the May 1776 proclamation of the Founding US Congress [cf. 294 above], and understand how they saw the nascent US in significant part as in the position of Assyria; looking to the plank in their own eyes even as they spoke to the speck in England's eyes. That should sober us and call us to a properly balanced view of the goodness and severity of God. Oh, Jamaica [now being publicly shamed before the world for national sins of decades standing], oh America, oh world. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 22, 2010
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Onlookers: After hundreds of posts, Seversky is still unfortunately unable to take a balanced view of the moral precepts, context and concerns of the Bible, OT and NT. At least, he has now acknowledged this much:
The Ten Commandments are fine as far as the go, especially when coupled with the Golden Rule, but you have to wonder why there are prohibitions against idolatry and swearing but not against, say, rape or child abuse which most people would say are much more serious offenses . . .
Let's note, that as an evolutionary materialist atheist, he has no worldview-foundational IS that grounds OUGHT. But, even at one remove, he is making moral judgements, however flawed. Such a sense that ought is real, as we discussed above, points tot he reality of an IS Who can indeed ground OUGHT: the good, just God who is also our Creator and Saviour. As to his concerns on the relative merits and significance of the ten commandments, let us note briefly from Wikipedia's surprisingly helpful summary of traditional Jewish teaching. I add remarks on arrow points: ___________________ >> According to the Medieval Sefer ha-Chinuch, the first four statements concern the relationship between God and humans, while the next six statements concern the relationships between people. Rabbinic literature holds that the Ten Statements in fact contain 14 or 15 distinct instructions; see listing under Yitro (parsha). 1. "I am the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before Me..." This commandment is to believe in the existence of God and His influence on events in the world [33], and that the goal of the redemption from Egypt was to become His servants (Rashi). It prohibits belief in or worship of any additional deities. --> Our ultimate loyalty and gratitude is to the One who is our Creator, Lord and deliverer, who enters into covenant with us --> No one and nothing should be allowed to usurp that priority 2. "Do not make an image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above..." This prohibits the construction or fashioning of "idols" in the likeness of created things (beasts, fish, birds, people) and worshipping them. --> The making of idols is the first step to worshiping them, and marks the substitution of creature for Creator that Rom 1 denounces:
19 . . . what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
--> Note the significance of the joint testimony of the world without and the heart and mind within 3. "Do not swear falsely by the name of the LORD..." This commandment is to never take the name of God in a vain, pointless or insincere oath.[34] --> More deeply and broadly, we are not to misuse the Name of God, e.g. by claiming to act in his name, while serving selfish or even wicked or empty ends that do him no glory 4. "Remember [zachor] the Sabbath day and keep it holy" (the version in Deuteronomy reads shamor, "observe") The seventh day of the week is termed Shabbat and is holy, just as God ceased creative activity during Creation. The aspect of zachor is performed by declaring the greatness of the day (kiddush), by having three festive meals, and by engaging in Torah study and pleasurable activities. The aspect of shamor is performed by abstaining from productive activity (39 melachot) on the Shabbat. --> Time to rest, restore oneself and primary relationships, with God and others, through worship and reflection and prayer 5. "Honor your father and your mother..." The obligation to honor one's parents is an obligation that one owes to God and fulfills this obligation through one's actions towards one's parents. --> respect the first authorities placed over you under God [ . . . ]kairosfocus
May 22, 2010
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tgpeeler @ 293
Perhaps a fine point here that you do not grasp. God is omnipotent but He cannot do “anything He chooses.” He can only do what is consistent with His essence. For example, He cannot be irrational since He is pure Reason (I AM). He cannot sin since He is perfectly righteous. He cannot terminate His existence since He is a Necessary Being. And so on.
In other words, God is constrained by his nature - those properties which make Him God and not something else or just chaos - just like any other being. That is all naturalism meant in one sense, the study of the nature of things. The problem for Christians is that God is also presumed to be perfect. That implies two properties: first, that He does not change because any change away from perfection must be towards imperfection, something a perfect being cannot do and, second, that He cannot create imperfection because that, in itself, would be imperfection.
So He does not wield power capriciously or arbitrarily. He always acts in accordance with His essence/character. All of it. I’ve noticed that when I’m the aggrieved party I’m more interested in God being Just. When I’m the offender I’m all about His grace and mercy. :-)
We are all human with all-too-human weaknesses and strengths. If we are charitable, and we don't need to be Christian to be that, we make allowances for others and hope they will do the same for us. The only evidence we have for God's nature is from the Bible. Unfortunately, the evidence in the Old Testament does suggest a God who is, on occasion, capricious, arbitrary, vengeful, etc. Maybe He has decent motives and sound, logical reason for doing what He does. The problem is He seems reluctant to share them with the rest of us. Apparently, He prefers to rule by decree and threats - and acts - of retribution. It could all be just a misunderstanding but that's something He could easily have corrected - and still could.
Why indeed? Are you setting yourself up to judge God? Personally, I have enough trouble of my own trying to not be an a$$hole without fretting over God’s behavior. I find that His doings are generally not the problem in the circles where I hang. When I want to see where the problem lies I have found that the mirror is usually a good place to start my search.
I'm sure you have moral standards like most other people. I'm also sure that there are acts described in the Old Testament which, if they had been perpetrated by anyone other than God, you would condemn as much as I do. So why not when God does them?
The question on the table is “WHY?” If there is no logical ground, then there is no ground at all. If we want this, then there must be a reason why we want it. You rightly say it cannot be found in physics. So where? I say it’s grounded in the character of God.
It depends on what you mean by "grounded". If you mean some sort of incontrovertible, axiomatic base from which all else flows deductively then you will not find it outside formal systems like logic or mathematics. If you want dogmatic certainty then religion can provide it but how do you choose between all the different ones available? Hence my view that the only reasonable ground is our collective interests as human beings. One further point: everyone wants certainty. That's part of human nature. Unfortunately, in one sense, that is the reason for much of the evil in the world. People who commit terrible crimes and atrocities in the name of their chosen faith or political ideology do so because they believe they are acting in the cause of some Ultimate Truth. They have found the certainty they sought and believe that almost any acts are justified in promoting it. If you believe that the only way to save someone's immortal soul is to kill them then you do it. That is why you will find religious fanatics flying planes into buildings or blowing themselves up with explosive vests but you won't find agnostics doing the same thing.
And speaking of those basic rules, how about the 10 commandments or their summary in Matthew 7:12 which says it all? If I want grace from others, I should be gracious to them. If I want love, kindness, forgiveness, patience, etc.. ditto. And who among us doesn’t want those things? It’s so simple even a Marine can understand it.
The Ten Commandments are fine as far as the go, especially when coupled with the Golden Rule, but you have to wonder why there are prohibitions against idolatry and swearing but not against, say, rape or child abuse which most people would say are much more serious offenses. Still, I'm sure Marines are much better at covering their neighbor's ass than coveting it.Seversky
May 22, 2010
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Clive Hayden @ 268
I judge that the stories show God as a just God. Do you have a standard to disagree with my judgment other than your own personal whim? Would you also tell me that I am wrong, and wrong in the same subjective way, for not liking cheese?
I disagree with you for the reasons I have given before. My point has always been that there is no empirical way to decide between our two perspectives. If you have such a test then let's hear it.Seversky
May 22, 2010
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above,
So Hasker asks, why is it that the moral relativist rejects objective standards in regards to human behavior but upholds them in the case of the scientific enterprise? The point being, whether we like it or not, objective ethical standards are not only actual but they are inescapable and necessary in practically most if not all realms of human existence.
Exactly. Well put.Clive Hayden
May 20, 2010
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I would also like to add to this discussion about moral standards, the idea introduced by Hasker (if I am not mistaken) of the absurdity of moral relativism. What he says in a nutshell is that the moral relativist/materialist will doubt the existence of objective morality (behavioral as it pertains to humans) to accomodate his worldview. However, what we never see is the same principle applied to other (non-behavioral areas) such as the scientific enterprise. Whether one is aware of it or not, the scientific enterprised in grounded in ethical standards, which attempt to differentiate good science from bad/pseudo-science. So Hasker asks, why is it that the moral relativist rejects objective standards in regards to human behavior but upholds them in the case of the scientific enterprise? The point being, whether we like it or not, objective ethical standards are not only actual but they are inescapable and necessary in practically most if not all realms of human existence.above
May 20, 2010
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Seversky: I have further responded to you over in the other thread. I endorse TGP's remarks just above. (Well done, Marine!) However, perhaps you need to look here at a remark by Koukl, to start your own reflections on evil and its import for worldviews vs realities:
Evil is real . . . That’s why people object to it. Therefore, objective moral standards must exist as well [i.e. as that which evil offends and violates] . . . . The first thing we observe about [such] moral rules is that, though they exist, they are not physical because they don’t seem to have physical properties. We won’t bump into them in the dark. They don’t extend into space. They have no weight. They have no chemical characteristics. Instead, they are immaterial things we discover through the process of thought, introspection, and reflection without the aid of [though informed by experiences acquired through the use of] our five senses . . . . We have, with a high degree of certainty, stumbled upon something real. Yet it’s something that can’t be proven empirically or described in terms of natural laws. This teaches us there’s more to the world than just the physical universe. If non-physical things–like moral rules–truly exist, then materialism as a world view is false. There seem to be many other things that populate the world, things like propositions, numbers, and the laws of logic. Values like happiness, friendship, and faithfulness are there, too, along with meanings and language. There may even be persons–souls [thus minds], angels, and other divine beings. Our discovery also tells us some things really exist that science has no access to, even in principle. Some things are not governed by natural laws. Science, therefore, is not the only discipline giving us true information about the world. [a great error of contemporary education, and one ever so convenient tot he Lewontinian a priori materialists] It follows, then, that naturalism as a world view is also false. Our discovery of moral rules forces us to expand our understanding of the nature of reality and open our minds to the possibility of a host of new things that populate the world in the invisible realm.
Also, I am distinctly troubled by your insistence on the notion that there is no worldview that can provide an IS that logically grounds OUGHT. For, your substitutes, "consensus" and your own feelings, are grossly inadequate to ground moral behaviour -- e.g. the point of temptation is that it subverts moral reason through arousing strong emotions [guess who is the true "patron saint" of advertising?]. And, by definition, a moral reformer challenges the "consensus" of his day; consensus being little more than a euphemism for the balance of power of the power elites, i.e. the plainly arbitrary and absurd premise: "might makes right." Nope, you need to think about how the objectionable reality we call evil is real, and entails that moral principle is real and binding as a well-grounded ought that is inbuilt in our consciences. Thence, we see that the only IS that soundly grounds ought is a good, wise Creator God who has made us equally in his image. No wonder your founding fathers wrote thusly, when they sought to make a truly free and just state, however flawed the initial and onward steps were and would be:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, [cf Rom 1:18 - 21, 2:14 - 15, 3:1 - 10], that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed
And, I beg to remind you that the principal -- but not sole -- author of this, also said that he trembled for his native land when he reflected on the proposition that God is Just. Indeed, it is appropriate to draw your attention to the call to prayer of May 1776, by that same Continental Congress that issued the above declaration in July:
May 1776 [over the name of John Hancock, first signer of the US Declaration of Indpependence]: In times of impending calamity and distress; when the liberties of America are imminently endangered by the secret machinations and open assaults of an insidious and vindictive administration, it becomes the indispensable duty of these hitherto free and happy colonies, with true penitence of heart, and the most reverent devotion, publickly to acknowledge the over ruling providence of God; to confess and deplore our offences against him; and to supplicate his interposition for averting the threatened danger, and prospering our strenuous efforts in the cause of freedom, virtue, and posterity. [Cf Jonah, esp chs 3 - 4] . . . Desirous, at the same time, to have people of all ranks and degrees duly impressed with a solemn sense of God's superintending providence, and of their duty, devoutly to rely, in all their lawful enterprizes, on his aid and direction, Do earnestly recommend, that Friday, the Seventeenth day of May next, be observed by the said colonies as a day of humiliation, fasting, and prayer; that we may, with united hearts, confess and bewail our manifold sins and transgressions, and, by a sincere repentance and amendment of life, appease his righteous displeasure, and, through the merits and mediation of Jesus Christ, obtain his pardon and forgiveness; humbly imploring his assistance to frustrate the cruel purposes of our unnatural enemies; . . . that it may please the Lord of Hosts, the God of Armies, to animate our officers and soldiers with invincible fortitude, to guard and protect them in the day of battle, and to crown the continental arms, by sea and land, with victory and success: Earnestly beseeching him to bless our civil rulers, and the representatives of the people, in their several assemblies and conventions; to preserve and strengthen their union, to inspire them with an ardent, disinterested love of their country; to give wisdom and stability to their counsels; and direct them to the most efficacious measures for establishing the rights of America on the most honourable and permanent basis—That he would be graciously pleased to bless all his people in these colonies with health and plenty, and grant that a spirit of incorruptible patriotism, and of pure undefiled religion, may universally prevail; and this continent be speedily restored to the blessings of peace and liberty, . . .
[Cf Preamble and conclusion, US Constitution, 1787: We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America . . . . [Main Body, Arts I - VII] . . . . Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth. In Witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names. . . . . [AMENDMENTS].]
. . . and enabled to transmit them inviolate to the latest posterity. And it is recommended to Christians of all denominations, to assemble for public worship, and abstain from servile labour on the said day.
Yes, that was an official decreee of the founding Congress of the USA, one that plainly reveals the mindset of the Declaration of Independence I cited above; and thence throws considerable light on the true foundations of modern liberty and democracy. One of many of like ilk . . . no prizes for guessing why such are NOT commonly cited in today's school history textbooks. Indeed, you may find it profitable to look at an online display by the Library of Congress, starting from here. Excerpting:
The Continental-Confederation Congress, a legislative body that governed the United States from 1774 to 1789, contained an extraordinary number of deeply religious men . . . both the legislators and the public considered it appropriate for the national government to promote a nondenominational, nonpolemical Christianity . . . . Congress was guided by "covenant theology," a Reformation doctrine especially dear to New England Puritans, which held that God bound himself in an agreement with a nation and its people . . . The first national government of the United States, was convinced that the "public prosperity" of a society depended on the vitality of its religion. Nothing less than a "spirit of universal reformation among all ranks and degrees of our citizens," Congress declared to the American people, would "make us a holy, that so we may be a happy people."
I trust this also helps to rebalance your views on practical Christian morality in the course of our Civilisation's history, and in light of the core teachings I have cited. In particular, it will show the real, informed Christian view on the Judgements of God over the nations. I also suppose that the above will help us see the difference between truth as that which says of what is that it is, and of what is not that it is not; and the "alternative reality" view that seeks to twist truth into the radically relativist notion of which story is most persuasive. Smacking into reality . . . G'day GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 19, 2010
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sev @ 289 "First, I find it offensive when someone presumes to pontificate to me about their morality and then they ignore it when it suits them." Agreed. But not on point. "Second, it demonstrates a clear double standard: in effect, it is saying ‘I think these moral prescriptions should be binding on you not but not on me’ which invites the obvious counter ‘if they are not good enough for you, why should they apply to me?’" Again, agreed. Again, not on point. "Third, when asserted in practice by God, it establishes the primacy of power. We know God is omnipotent and can do anything He chooses. The only thing that could possibly restrain Him is if He were to voluntarily accept moral constraints on His exercise of power. By refusing to do that He is saying might is right." Perhaps a fine point here that you do not grasp. God is omnipotent but He cannot do "anything He chooses." He can only do what is consistent with His essence. For example, He cannot be irrational since He is pure Reason (I AM). He cannot sin since He is perfectly righteous. He cannot terminate His existence since He is a Necessary Being. And so on. So He does not wield power capriciously or arbitrarily. He always acts in accordance with His essence/character. All of it. I've noticed that when I'm the aggrieved party I'm more interested in God being Just. When I'm the offender I'm all about His grace and mercy. :-) "Fourth, if anyone, God included, cannot or will not abide by their own morality then why should anyone else?" Why indeed? Are you setting yourself up to judge God? Personally, I have enough trouble of my own trying to not be an a$$hole without fretting over God's behavior. I find that His doings are generally not the problem in the circles where I hang. When I want to see where the problem lies I have found that the mirror is usually a good place to start my search. "None of them. There is no logical way to ground moral prescriptions in nature. The Universe cares nothing about what we do do to one another. But we do." The question on the table is "WHY?" If there is no logical ground, then there is no ground at all. If we want this, then there must be a reason why we want it. You rightly say it cannot be found in physics. So where? I say it's grounded in the character of God. "I would like to live out my life without someone stealing my property and I would like to die of natural causes at a ripe old age rather than being murdered before my time. So, I’m sure, would you. So would most people. So it shouldn’t be too hard for people to get together and agree on some basic rules of social behavior which keeps everybody happy, should it?" Indeed it should not. The problem is not God, it's people. The rules have been given to us again and again - see kf's excerpts from Hebrew Bible and New Testament. When we rebel we not only disobey we also often turn on our Creator as we survey the wreckage in our lives and say "how could You let this happen?" I think at that point God says "are you talking to Me? I did this???? I don't think so..." And speaking of those basic rules, how about the 10 commandments or their summary in Matthew 7:12 which says it all? If I want grace from others, I should be gracious to them. If I want love, kindness, forgiveness, patience, etc.. ditto. And who among us doesn't want those things? It's so simple even a Marine can understand it. It would be an interesting exercise, I'd bet, for you to come up with your rules for getting along. I'll bet they would end up looking a lot like the Biblical prescriptions. Best...tgpeeler
May 18, 2010
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tgpeeler @ 267
I have a question for you, Sev. Why is being a hypocrite (not that God is, but for the sake of argument…) morally offensive to you?
First, I find it offensive when someone presumes to pontificate to me about their morality and then they ignore it when it suits them. Second, it demonstrates a clear double standard: in effect, it is saying 'I think these moral prescriptions should be binding on you not but not on me' which invites the obvious counter 'if they are not good enough for you, why should they apply to me?' Third, when asserted in practice by God, it establishes the primacy of power. We know God is omnipotent and can do anything He chooses. The only thing that could possibly restrain Him is if He were to voluntarily accept moral constraints on His exercise of power. By refusing to do that He is saying might is right. Fourth, if anyone, God included, cannot or will not abide by their own morality then why should anyone else?
If you ground all explanations for everything in natural laws (physics) then which one of those physical laws tells us it’s wrong to murder, steal, lie, or do anything? Just curious.
None of them. There is no logical way to ground moral prescriptions in nature. The Universe cares nothing about what we do do to one another. But we do. I would like to live out my life without someone stealing my property and I would like to die of natural causes at a ripe old age rather than being murdered before my time. So, I'm sure, would you. So would most people. So it shouldn't be too hard for people to get together and agree on some basic rules of social behavior which keeps everybody happy, should it?Seversky
May 18, 2010
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PS: Moreover, frame slips or shifts [including a class of mutations], reversed codes, and the like speak to how the DNA coding is discrete state.kairosfocus
May 18, 2010
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kairosfocus @287, What I am trying to point out is that a vinyl record does not require a level of indirection to operate, while a CD does. When you and other ID supporters use the computer analogy, you are implying that at least one level of indirection exists between the symbolic code, (in this case DNA), and cellular operation. If this is true, then we should clearly see the support mechanism for this indirection, for example, an ALU, address decoder, program counter, etc. If we don't see a clearly defined support mechanism that is completely separate from what you have called "digital code", then DNA is not a "symbolic representation" of a part of the process, it would actually "be" a part of the process. So if DNA is like a CD instead of a vinyl record, show me the support mechanism for a level of indirection. Analog processes won't do since it is you who have claimed it is "digital code".Toronto
May 18, 2010
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Toronto: A vinyl record stores a processed analogue of a song [often with RIAA pre-emphasis, and sometimes, stereo channels in physical quadrature], in wavy grooves in a spiral path. A digital CD stores the discretely coded information for a song or a picture or computer data and instructions etc. DNA stores the coded genetic data that when transcribed, transmitted, and processed codon by codon, a 64 state process, chains a protein, based on essentially a 20-state amino acid system. This process is plainly discrete state and is digital. It is also an algorithmic, step by step controlled process. Have you taken time to simply look at the standard codon translation table? If so answer this, what are the defined states between the 64 tabulated codes? By contrast, to high resolution, between any two points on a vinyl record track, there is another valid position, i.e the record varies smoothly as the wax allows. Discrete state, digital; continuous state, analogue. Think: ladder vs climbing rope. G'day GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 18, 2010
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KF-san, Thank you for the review of where we are now, after 3.something billion years. Ask yourself, is it at all possible this system was different or simpler in the past? Staring in wonder at the current system is not going to help answer that question.Nakashima
May 18, 2010
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Above, interesting. Gkairosfocus
May 18, 2010
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Mr Hayden, Biochemical Predestination has grown out of favor with the growing knowledge of what is required. I don't think it is appropriate to conflate Kenyon's idea of protein assembly with a theory on the emergence of the genetic code. Kenyon and others failed to find strong AA to AA constraints. It is also true that nucleotide to nucleotide constraints are weak, though they exist. Neither of those addresses AA to nucleotide relationships, which is what the stereochemical hypothesis is investigating.Nakashima
May 18, 2010
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@StephenB In regards to methodological naturalism, I think you will find this article rather interesting. http://www.metanexus.net/Magazine/tabid/68/id/10028/Default.aspxabove
May 18, 2010
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