31 Replies to “Reasonable Faith on the fine-tuning of the universe

  1. 1
    bornagain77 says:

    As to the imagined ‘universe generator’ at the 4:15 minute mark of the video.,,, Although the multiverse itself is imagined to be an infinite number of parallel universes that occupy every conceivable ‘naturalistic’ possibility for a universe, exactly where does the imagined ‘universe generator’ itself reside and what is it made of? In order to create just our universe, the imagined ‘universe generator’ cannot be made of mass-energy, nor can it reside in space-time, since the imagined ‘universe generator’ created those things. Paul Davies puts the problem like this,,,

    “The multiverse comes with a lot of baggage, such as an overarching space and time to host all those bangs, a universe-generating mechanism to trigger them, physical fields to populate the universes with material stuff, and a selection of forces to make things happen. Cosmologists embrace these features by envisaging sweeping “meta-laws” that pervade the multiverse and spawn specific bylaws on a universe-by-universe basis. The meta-laws themselves remain unexplained – eternal, immutable transcendent entities that just happen to exist and must simply be accepted as given.”
    Paul Davies, physicist, SETI director

    Even Austin Hughes, who is an evolutionary biologist of all occupations, can see the shell game atheists are playing with the imagined ‘universe generator’,,,

    Believe Science Has All the Answers? Evolutionary Biologist Austin Hughes Says, Open Your Eyes – Fall 2013
    Excerpt: How does scientism justify moving into areas traditionally explained by philosophy?
    “What they say is, “Philosophy has never solved anything. It’s just nonsense or religion.” They don’t realize that they themselves are incapable of answering the really big questions. Take these multiverse theories. Basically, they’re just a way to deny that the universe has the appearance of design. “The universe was not designed,” these scientists say. “It’s just that there are lots and lots of other universes, and we just happen to be in one that’s favorable to life.” But that doesn’t solve the metaphysical problem, does it? Where did all of these universes come from? Who established the rules within each universe? Who established the rules by which new universes are generated?”
    http://salvomag.com/new/articl.....cience.php

    And should not the fact that Theism has postulated all along that the universe was created by a Being who is not limited by space-time matter-energy count for something?

    The best data we have [concerning the Big Bang] are exactly what I would have predicted, had I nothing to go on but the five books of Moses, the Psalms, the bible as a whole.
    Dr. Arno Penzias, Nobel Laureate in Physics – co-discoverer of the Cosmic Background Radiation – as stated to the New York Times on March 12, 1978

    “Certainly there was something that set it all off,,, I can’t think of a better theory of the origin of the universe to match Genesis”
    Robert Wilson – Nobel laureate – co-discover Cosmic Background Radiation

    Verse and Music:

    Genesis 1:3
    And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

    God Of Wonders – Third Day
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CBNE25rtnE

  2. 2
    bornagain77 says:

    of note to ‘higher dimensions’ above the space-time matter-energy of this universe:
    Although we have no evidence of infinite parallel universes of the multiverse variety, or of the quantum many worlds variety, we do have evidence of ‘higher dimensions’ above this universe as is postulated in Theism.
    In fact, both of our best mathematical descriptions for the universe, General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics are both ‘higher dimensional’ in their formulation:

    The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences – Eugene Wigner – 1960
    Excerpt: We now have, in physics, two theories of great power and interest: the theory of quantum phenomena and the theory of relativity.,,, The two theories operate with different mathematical concepts: the four dimensional Riemann space and the infinite dimensional Hilbert space,
    http://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc.....igner.html

    The Mathematics Of Higher Dimensionality – Gauss & Riemann
    https://vimeo.com/98188985

    Moreover, it is interesting to note that math, even higher dimensional math, is ‘incomplete’,,,

    Kurt Gödel – Incompleteness Theorem – video
    https://vimeo.com/92387853

    The four dimensional Riemann space that General Relativity is based upon is fascinating to contemplate. In four dimensional Riemann space any particular 3D spot in the universe is to be considered just as ‘center of the universe’ as any other particular spot in the universe is to be considered ‘center of the universe’,,,

    “There is no centre of the universe! According to the standard theories of cosmology, the universe started with a “Big Bang” about 14 thousand million years ago and has been expanding ever since. Yet there is no centre to the expansion; it is the same everywhere. The Big Bang should not be visualized as an ordinary explosion. The universe is not expanding out from a centre into space; rather, the whole universe is expanding and it is doing so equally at all places, as far as we can tell.”

    The centrality found for any 3D place in the universe is because the universe is a 4D expanding hypersphere, analogous in 3D to the surface of an expanding balloon. All points on the surface are moving away from each other, and every point is central, if that’s where you live.
    I find the best way to get this ‘centrality of the Earth in the universe” point across is to visualize it first hand. Thus I reference the first few minutes of this following video to clearly get this ‘centrality in the universe’ point across:

    Centrality of The Earth Within The 4-Dimensional Space-Time of General Relativity – video
    https://vimeo.com/98189061

    This discovery for the 4-dimensional space-time of General Relativity is just fascinating to think about,, for how is it possible that every place can be central in the universe?
    One way to get a handle on how this is possible is to visualize what it would be like to be in a higher dimension,,,

    Dr Quantum Flatland
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6206QWGh3s

    Moreover, we also have evidence for a higher dimension from Special Relativity. Please note the 3:22 minute mark of the following video, when the 3-Dimensional world ‘folds and collapses’ into a tunnel shape around the direction of travel as a ‘hypothetical’ observer moves towards the ‘higher dimension’ of the speed of light.

    Approaching The Speed Of Light – Optical Effects – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5733303/

    Moreover, we have evidence that time acts in a fundamentally different way in this higher dimension,,

    Albert Einstein – Special Relativity – Insight Into Eternity – ‘thought experiment’ video
    https://vimeo.com/93101738

    “I’ve just developed a new theory of eternity.”
    Albert Einstein – The Einstein Factor – Reader’s Digest – 2005

    “The laws of relativity have changed timeless existence from a theological claim to a physical reality. Light, you see, is outside of time, a fact of nature proven in thousands of experiments at hundreds of universities. I don’t pretend to know how tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday. But at the speed of light they actually and rigorously do. Time does not pass.”
    Richard Swenson – More Than Meets The Eye, Chpt. 12

    Interestingly, we have ‘observational’ evidence from Near Death Experiences that verifies our scientific evidence for higher dimensions:

    “I was in a body, and the only way that I can describe it was a body of energy, or of light. And this body had a form. It had a head, it had arms and it had legs. And it was like it was made out of light. And it was everything that was me. All of my memories, my consciousness, everything.”,,, “And then this vehicle formed itself around me. Vehicle is the only thing, or tube, or something, but it was a mode of transportation that’s for sure! And it formed around me. And there was no one in it with me. I was in it alone. But I knew there were other people ahead of me and behind me. What they were doing I don’t know, but there were people ahead of me and people behind me, but I was alone in my particular conveyance. And I could see out of it. And it went at a tremendously, horrifically, rapid rate of speed. But it wasn’t unpleasant. It was beautiful in fact. I was reclining in this thing, I wasn’t sitting straight up, but I wasn’t lying down either. I was sitting back. And it was just so fast. I can’t even begin to tell you where it went or whatever it was just fast!” –
    Vicki’s Near Death Experience – Blind since birth –

    “I started to move toward the light. The way I moved, the physics, was completely different than it is here on Earth. It was something I had never felt before and never felt since. It was a whole different sensation of motion. I obviously wasn’t walking or skipping or crawling. I was not floating. I was flowing. I was flowing toward the light. I was accelerating and I knew I was accelerating, but then again, I didn’t really feel the acceleration. I just knew I was accelerating toward the light. Again, the physics was different – the physics of motion of time, space, travel. It was completely different in that tunnel, than it is here on Earth. I came out into the light and when I came out into the light, I realized that I was in heaven.”
    Barbara Springer – Near Death Experience – The Tunnel – video
    https://vimeo.com/79072924

    Ask the Experts: What Is a Near-Death Experience (NDE)? – article with video
    Excerpt: “Very often as they’re moving through the tunnel, there’s a very bright mystical light … not like a light we’re used to in our earthly lives. People call this mystical light, brilliant like a million times a million suns…”
    – Jeffrey Long M.D. – has studied NDE’s extensively
    http://abcnews.go.com/Nightlin....._gydvW8jbI

    ‘In the ‘spirit world,,, instantly, there was no sense of time. See, everything on earth is related to time. You got up this morning, you are going to go to bed tonight. Something is new, it will get old. Something is born, it’s going to die. Everything on the physical plane is relative to time, but everything in the spiritual plane is relative to eternity. Instantly I was in total consciousness and awareness of eternity, and you and I as we live in this earth cannot even comprehend it, because everything that we have here is filled within the veil of the temporal life. In the spirit life that is more real than anything else and it is awesome. Eternity as a concept is awesome. There is no such thing as time. I knew that whatever happened was going to go on and on.’
    In The Presence Of Almighty God – The NDE of Mickey Robinson –

    ‘When you die, you enter eternity. It feels like you were always there, and you will always be there. You realize that existence on Earth is only just a brief instant.’
    Dr. Ken Ring – has extensively studied Near Death Experiences

    ‘Earthly time has no meaning in the spirit realm. There is no concept of before or after. Everything – past, present, future – exists simultaneously.’
    – Kimberly Clark Sharp – NDE Experiencer

    ‘There is no way to tell whether minutes, hours or years go by. Existence is the only reality and it is inseparable from the eternal now.’
    – John Star – NDE Experiencer

  3. 3
    bornagain77 says:

    Of related interest to this higher heavenly dimension above this one, it is interesting to note that the 2-dimensional surface of the Shroud of Turin has 3-Dimensional holographic information encoded on it:

    Shroud Of Turin – 3 Dimensional Hologram Reveals Words ‘The Lamb’ – video
    https://vimeo.com/97156784

    Verse and Music:

    John 8:23
    But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

    David Crowder Band – Everything Glorious W/Lyrics
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzCFWW6Xbns

  4. 4
    Peter says:

    For what it’s worth I’m a witness to higher dimensions. Years ago I had a vision in which I had a conversation with the transfigured Christ. I was sleeping and I found myself in a darkened room. The walls, floor, and ceiling were black and nondescript. Then Jesus appeared. His head was so bright that I couldn’t look at him. So I looked down to floor. He approached me and we had a very brief a conversation. All the while I could sense his divine power and love. The conversation ended and in a instant I was back in my bed in my physical body. It was no dream. It was too clear, and too easy to remember. In a dream you have fussy images that are partially complete. The vision was as real as everyday reality. I have been very fortunate. I never question my faith. I know the reality of higher dimensions through my experience.

  5. 5
    Daniel King says:

    For what it’s worth I’m a witness to higher dimensions.

    Peter, from my perspective, its worth is beyond measurement.

    Thank you for your witness.

    Do you remember what Jesus said? What was the gist of the conversation?

  6. 6
    bornagain77 says:

    Ditto DK at 5 Peter

  7. 7
    roding says:

    DK and BA77 – you seem very willing to accept Peter’s testimony of witnessing a higher dimension without question. It’s possible Peter’s experience may be quite valid, but given the extraordinary nature of it, I’d been at this point wanting to ask quite a few questions, and attempting to understand the context, setting, background etc. Do you know Peter personally, have you met him? Do you just take his word for it because it fits your own ideology?

    If Peter’s witness was of Krishna, or Buddha, or the angel moroni, what would have been your reaction?

  8. 8
    bornagain77 says:

    Well roding, although my testimony is not as dramatic as Peter’s, I too have seen the ‘miraculous’ in my life. A ‘miraculous’ event where Jesus was unquestionably ‘there for me’, i.e. ‘spoke to me’, at a very low point in my life. In fact, I’ve seen numerous ‘small’ miracles since that time in my life as well as in other people’s lives.

    As well, my older and younger brothers have both had experiences with Christ that were much more dramatic than mine. And although I could envision my younger brother being given to fancy in such matters, my older brother is nothing like that, but is one of the most fine, upstanding, responsible, ‘down to earth’, people I know. The soberness to which my older brother conducts his life, and to which he personally gave his testimony to me, left no doubt in me that his testimony is truthful and sincere.

    So while I still would like to know more details of exactly what happened to Peter, and the circumstances under which it happened, I know that what happened to him is ‘not out of the norm’ for a Christian, and I have no reason to doubt the sincerity of his testimony at this time,

    I know, especially dealing with Darwinists, that not everything people say on thee internet is true (DUH!), and sometimes, especially with Darwinists, what people say can sometimes be purposely misleading, but in regards to Peter’s testimony I have very good reasons to believe that his testimony has a high probability of being trustworthy.

    A few related notes:

    I recently read a book,,,

    Face to Face with Jesus: A Former Muslim’s Extraordinary Journey to Heaven and Encounter with the God of Love
    http://www.amazon.com/Face-Jes.....800795792/
    ,,, in which a little girl, who grew up in a strict Muslim family in a Muslim country torn by a civil war, although she prayed fervently and faithfully as a devout Muslim would pray, realized that the god of the Muslims was not answering her prayers. When in desperation she turned to the ‘infidel’ Christian God, whom she called ‘The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob’, and her simple prayer for food to eat was answered, she, the youngest member of her strict Muslim family, realized that Christianity was true and turned to Christianity. Although she experienced fierce persecution for following Christ, (mostly from her own family), the faith that this small girl displayed, and the miracles that happened through that faith, eventually won her entire family over one by one.,,, Her story is truly an extraordinary testimony.

    Good Morning America “GodWinks – When God let’s you know He’s thinking of you” – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....9xPfNtbrqw

    One of John Lennox´s Great Personal Stories Told to Harvard Students – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wh0M0EG2jKY

    My new book is finished! It’s a Miracle! – Eric Metaxas
    Excerpt: Have you ever wondered what a miracle is, or why miracles happen — or how miracles can change your life? What a coincidence — or is it a miracle? — because I’ve written a NEW book titled Miracles: What They Are, Why They Happen, and How They Can Change Your Life! The book will be launched on Oct. 28th (2014) at a special Socrates in the City event with our first ever guest host, none other than TV legend and Emmy Award-winning talk show host, Mr. Dick Cavett! He will interview me on the subject of miracles — but the event will be simulcast so anyone can watch it.
    http://www.ericmetaxas.com/blo.....a-miracle/

    Craig Keener- Miracles Symposium – video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rn73J9A0SnU

    Dr. Craig Keener, author of “Miracles: The Credibility of the New Testament Accounts” discusses in this web series some of the accounts of people being raised from the dead and people being healed of sicknesses from around the world. – video playlist
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....fOqOmxOyU=

    Mother Teresa was a nun whom I consider to have ‘walked in miracles’. At the 19:00 minute mark of the following video you can catch a glimpse of the remarkable trust in God that this little woman of giant faith constantly walked in during her missionary work to the poorest of the poor:

    Mary Poplin – Life Lessons from Mother Teresa – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeNIOyF0sjU

    Verses and Music:

    Isaiah 45:18-19
    For thus says the Lord, who created the heavens, who is God, who formed the earth and made it, who established it, who did not create it in vain, who formed it to be inhabited: “I am the Lord, and there is no other. I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth; I did not say to the seed of Jacob, ‘seek me in vain’; I, the Lord speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.”

    Evanescence – Bring Me To Life
    Lyric: ‘Only You are the living among the dead”
    http://vimeo.com/38692431

    Ephesians 5:14
    This is why it is said: “Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.”

  9. 9
    Peter says:

    Yes, I remember the vision like it was yesterday. It happened over twenty years ago. I had left the church at the time. I was not thinking of religion at all.

    In my vision I was in the darkened room. On the other side of the room was a pedestal about 1 meter high. On the pedestal was a gem about 1/3 of a meter in circumference. It was shaped like the top of a diamond on its top and bottom. There was no point like the bottom of a diamond to be set into a ring. It just sat on the pedestal. It emitted a bright light blue light. It was divinely beautiful. There are no earthly comparisons.

    Jesus appeared on my right hand side in front of me. He approached. That was when I tried to look him in the face but had to look away. The radiance emitting from his face was too bright. He was wearing a robe so that his radiance came only from his face and hands.

    After stopping about normal distance people keep in a conversation he said to me: ‘I can show you more, but you have to leave.’ I looked once more at the gem. Its beauty, and the glow was stronger than ever. I felt a beauty that was beyond anything you could feel on earth. I pondered Jesus’ question. Should I see more? Jesus didn’t explain what the light was. I thought it was the essence of God himself because nothing could be so beautiful. I thought if I left this world I would obviously die. That would hurt the ones I love very much. I decided that I couldn’t hurt my loved ones, regardless of whatever experience I was giving up. As soon as I decided not to see more the vision was over and I was back in my bed.

  10. 10
    roding says:

    BA77, thank you for sharing a bit about your personal experiences, that’s interesting. And Peter, thank you for sharing more details about your experience. Self-reports are always fascinating (of all religions).

    BA77 – you seem to spend an extraordinary time posting here. Do you consider this your ministry or something? I’m imagining you don’t have a day job!

  11. 11
    bornagain77 says:

    roding, my ‘day job’ allows me more time on the internet than most people would have.

  12. 12
    bornagain77 says:

    As to ‘ministry’, I consider ministry to be working with the homeless and poor and such as that. I consider defending the Theistic position on the internet to be just plain good common sense, although I’m sure a few atheists would rather I not spend so much time doing that, and have been told as much.

  13. 13
    roding says:

    As to ‘ministry’, I consider ministry to be working with the homeless and poor and such as that. I consider defending the Theistic position on the internet to be just plain good common sense, although I’m sure a few atheists would rather I not spend so much time doing that, and have been told as much.

    Working with poor and homeless is a great ministry! It’s up to you how much time you spend on the Internet. I wonder how many people (especially atheists) change their worldview because of what they read on the Internet?

    To be honest I don’t usually read your posts because there are so many of them and they are usually links to elsewhere. But on this occasion you addressed me personally so that was different.

  14. 14
    bornagain77 says:

    “I wonder how many people (especially atheists) change their worldview because of what they read on the Internet?”

    I know a few,,,

    “To be honest I don’t usually read your posts”

    Neither do I usually read yours. Nothing personal, there is just so much of interest on the internet it is impossible to keep up with everything (unless you are God of course, without which there would be no world much less a world wide web) 🙂

  15. 15
    DavidDunn says:

    I am actually a longtime lurker who just registered here for the purpose of chiming in on this back and forth about BA77’s comments. Personally, i have found BA77’s comments to be extremely profitable in many ways, and they are often as much, if not more, of an attraction to me than the post they are attached to. I’m quite sure that many other lurkers feel the same way I do.

    For those times when one has the time and inclination to go deeper on a given topic, BA77 is always there with an incredibly helpful post giving lots of great additional information, laid out in a helpful way and with links to back up his assertions. I have actually been quite amazed at BA77’s gift for synthesizing these topics in such a helpful way. His posts are the guided tours of a master librarian, arranging explorations of a topic in ways the card catalog can simply cannot match.

    Sure, one doesn’t always have to jump down those rabbit holes, but it is an enormously valuable thing that these guided tours are there for times when one wants them to be. So on behalf of all who have benefited from your posts, BA77, I offer a sincere and hearty thank you. Keep it up. Many are reading.

    UD Editors add: BA77 is a priceless resource for this site, and we are grateful for his work.

  16. 16
    roding says:

    I know a few,,,

    I’m curious, have you observed a conversion take place on any of the sites you visit? Would be interesting to read the threads. Are there some sites where it happens more than others? I don’t think it’s happened at UD but there I suppose technically it’s not supposed to be a religious site!

  17. 17
    bornagain77 says:

    and roding why do you ask? Are you considering becoming a Theist because of the evidence like the world’s most prominent atheist Anthony Flew did? if not, what is your specific ‘reason’, since you have no scientific evidence, for not believing?

  18. 18
    bornagain77 says:

    “I now believe that the universe was brought into existence by an infinite intelligence. I believe that the universe’s intricate laws manifest what scientists have called the Mind of God. I believe that life and reproduction originate in a divine Source. Why do I believe this, given that I expounded and defended atheism for more than a half century? The short answer is this: this is the world picture, as I see it, that has emerged from modern science.”
    Anthony Flew – world’s leading intellectual atheist for most of his adult life until a few years shortly before his death
    The Case for a Creator – Lee Strobel (Nov. 25, 2012) – video
    http://www.saddleback.com/mc/m/ee32d/

  19. 19
    bornagain77 says:

    “It may seem bizarre, but in my opinion science offers a surer path to God than religion … science has actually advanced to the point where what were formerly religious questions can be seriously tackled”,,
    Paul Davies, God and the New Physics, Penguin, 1983, p. ix

  20. 20
    roding says:

    and roding why do you ask? Are you considering becoming a Theist because of the evidence like the world’s most prominent atheist Anthony Flew did? if not, what is your specific ‘reason’, since you have no scientific evidence, for not believing?

    I’m always open to the idea of being a theist. I’m also fascinated by people’s conversion stories, particularly if they occurred on the Internet. So curiosity is my main reason.

  21. 21
    Axel says:

    BA77, with regard to your first few paragraphs of your #8, in answer to Roding’s #7, I wonder if you would be inclined to summarise it as follows:

    The supernatural is more real – I’m not speaking metaphorically – to people who have experienced it with any force (in fact always felt as sublimely personally-addressed, whether a ridiculous coincidence(s) or a vision or both), than the day-to-day world they live in.

    There is something about the way in which such a person relates his/her story, Roding, that also rings true. False ones are just as easily identified, as much through the context and nature of the communication as anything, but they are surprisingly rare. They don’t come from the heart. Even in many of the great classics of literature, it is, I think, usually the author’s heart that speaks to us, and rings true.

    I’ve always believed mystical experiences were far more common than we are given to understand by the media, so I found it very gratifying to see the ever-growing abundance of accounts of mystical NDE experiences on YouTube, etc, incidentally, of a much more stunningly visual, paradisial kind than most waking ones, I believe.

    Love and beauty seem two sides of the same coin, and you not only see the beauty and feel the love, your eyes feel both as though physically with your eyes(!) – which sounds mad.

    Like Jung, I don’t believe God exists. I know he does. But if I have any lingering, irrational doubt it is not about his existence, but the notion that such sublime glimpses of heavenly beauty as we can be granted here in this life could be experienced never-endingly, forever and ever!!!! That’s sometimes I find difficult to get my head round when I ponder it.

  22. 22
    OldArmy94 says:

    The “ISness” of God is why I believe. He IS, and there is nothing without Him. Not “nothing” in Stephen Hawking’s woefully misguided “nothing”, but NOTHING.

    I don’t agree with everything written by Dr. Ed Feser (he doesn’t care much for ID, for example), but he has provided some fantastic insight into the nature of God, such as I allude to above.

  23. 23
    bornagain77 says:

    roding, as to intellectual evidence for God, there is more than enough, and then some, to satisfy the curious mind that God is really real. But I think you may be looking for something deeper, a evidence of the heart if you will, a personal ‘touch’ from God, and if you are, besides Axel’s excellent post at 21, I can only echo the ‘seek and ye shall find’ refrain of the Bible,,

    along that note;

    Have You Experienced Jesus – Episode 8 – video
    Excerpt: At the 6:40 minute mark of this video, Kay Sorenson a former Las Vegas Singer at the age of 46 had an amazing born again experience
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNcXkMxQjDU&feature=player_detailpage#t=400s

  24. 24
    bornagain77 says:

    semi OT: podcast: Dr. Bill Demsbki: Being As Communion
    http://www.discovery.org/multi.....more-26371
    John West sits down with Mathematician and Philosopher Dr. Bill Dembski to discuss his new book Being as Communion: A Metaphysics of Information. Dr. Dembski describes his book as “trying…to make sense of the world if matter is not the most fundamental thing, but information is.” Tune in to this fascinating discussion about our understanding of information, and how it can transform our view of the world.

  25. 25
    roding says:

    roding, as to intellectual evidence for God, there is more than enough, and then some, to satisfy the curious mind that God is really real. But I think you may be looking for something deeper, a evidence of the heart if you will, a personal ‘touch’ from God, and if you are, besides Axel’s excellent post at 21, I can only echo the ‘seek and ye shall find’ refrain of the Bible,,

    My original question was about knowing of accounts of conversions that have occurred directly because of interaction on sits like this where these topics have occurred. You said you knew of a few (#14) , so would be very interested in exploring these. I’d like to see and understand the thought/mind processes atheists went through as part of their conversion experience.

  26. 26
    bornagain77 says:

    Well roding, I don’t have the e-mails saved, and wouldn’t share them with you if I did save them, but I received a few e- mails testifying to their (i.e. atheists) conversion from reading UD and other related ID material, i.e. books videos, etc…

    And I am not sure who all on UD use to be atheistic and who all use to merely believe in evolution, but almost everyone on UD has believed in Darwinian evolution to one extent or another at some time in the past before becoming familiar with the evidence for ID.

    GilDodgen, who use to post quite regularly on UD, comes readily to mind as someone who is quite open in stating that he came from a fairly strong atheistic background and converted to Christianity after becoming familiar with the scientific evidence for ID,,,

    If anyone else on UD wants to share their personal story with you that is their personal business, and I certainly don’t want to put anyone on the spot who doesn’t want to be there,,

  27. 27
    Chalciss says:

    DD@15, I echo your comments, I stop by to read comments by BA77 and have been tremendously blessed by the posts of BA77 and others like him. 🙂

  28. 28
    groovamos says:

    UD Editors add: BA77 is a priceless resource for this site, and we are grateful for his work.

    I admit to not reading any of it. #1 the extreme volume of it where I have to scroll, and scroll, and scroll to get to the next post, puts it like, if I’m going to read it where do you start? And #2 because of the extreme volume I’m suspicious of the motive behind it. I have an evangelical sister and brother-in-law, and he especially is very rigid. Because of my knowledge of mental health and its relationship with non-ordinary states of consciousness, he thinks I have wasted my life exploring the subject and actually taking part. And wrote a 50 page explanation for me why there is only one way, and that way is why he doesn’t believe in spiritual progress or advancement. Yes you read that right. I can point to one of their church members who cannot work and cannot climb the steps to the church, because of obesity. She did it his way and in the last 3 years has gained another 100 pounds.

    So BA’s volume reminds me of those 50 pages. Now saying this I have noticed one or two other people admitting to being a fan of his. So I have nothing to say about the relevancy of any of it but I did click one of his links one time and it was interesting.

  29. 29
    bornagain77 says:

    I appreciate the votes of confidence from the, ahem, ‘fans’ who find my posts interesting, and the honesty of critics who find them boring.

    roding, as to the overall subject, I hope that their chiming in on the subject brought a little bit of clarity for you on the topic.

    If I may offer one more opinion,,, for me the evidence for Intelligent Design is simply overwhelming to the point of ridiculousness (for example ‘a brain that is far more complex than the entire internet combined),,, and yet, as you note, relatively few people change their minds based on the scientific evidence that is presented on these blogs.,,, so that tells me that it must be more of a ‘heart problem’ than it is a ‘head problem’. i.e. for some inexplicable reason, people fervently desire that ID was not true and that a nihilistic existence was true.,,

    “In speaking of the fear of religion, I don’t mean to refer to the entirely reasonable hostility toward certain established religions and religious institutions, in virtue of their objectionable moral doctrines, social policies, and political influence. Nor am I referring to the association of many religious beliefs with superstition and the acceptance of evident empirical falsehoods. I am talking about something much deeper—namely, the fear of religion itself. I speak from experience, being strongly subject to this fear myself: I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers. It isn’t just that I don’t believe in God and, naturally, hope that I’m right in my belief. It’s that I hope there is no God! I don’t want there to be a God; I don’t want the universe to be like that.”
    – Thomas Nagel

    Verse and Music:

    John 5:39-40
    You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

    Evanescence – The Other Side (Lyric Video)
    http://www.vevo.com/watch/evan.....tantsearch

  30. 30
    StephenA says:

    Roding:
    I never really had a ‘conversion’ experience, but I did have a period of my life where I decided that I needed to investigate the evidence and evaluate things for myself. The thing is, I didn’t do most of it by actually debating with people, but by reading the debates and discussions by other people. I strongly suspect that people that are re-evaluating what they believe won’t tend to take part in such threads. After all, they’re in the middle of deciding. Which side would they even argue for?

    As a result, any conversions that happen as a result of these threads are not likely to be recorded in the threads themselves, and may in fact happen well after the thread has ‘died’. I know that when I was investigating I read a lot archived discussions that hadn’t been commented on in months or even years.

  31. 31
    StephenA says:

    Roding:

    BTW, I stumbled upon this account of an athiest’s conversion to christianity recently. It might be of interest to you.

    http://www.undergroundthomist......theist.pdf

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