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Recent papers confirm that genetic entropy decreases fitness

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entropy illustrated

Over at Creation-Evolution Headlines, Dave Coppedge reports that two recent journal article’s have confirmed Cornell’s John Sanford’s “genetic entropy”: An accumulation of mutations always decreases fitness (contrary to neo-Darwinists’ hopes):

For mutations under epistasis to produce innovation, there must be a way for them to work together (synergistic epistasis). This is often assumed but has not been observed. Most experiments have shown beneficial mutations working against each other (antagonistic epistasis; see 12/14/2006), or causing even less fitness than if they acted alone (decompensatory epistasis; see 10/19/2004). In a new paper in Science,3 Khan et al, working with Richard Lenski [Michigan State], leader of the longest-running experiment on evolution of E. coli, found a law of diminishing returns with beneficial mutations due to negative epistasis.

Diminishing returns?

Like this, for example?: An increased number of spelling errors in a letter retyped in series by a number of different people does not add up to a new, better letter over time?

Coppedge also notes the way the science media handled the news, for example:

“The more mutations the researchers added, the more they interfered with each other,” was one of the “surprising” results.

Surprising to whom? Not to Dembski and other members of the No Free Lunch club.

Follow UD News for breaking news on the design controversy.

Comments
The scientists haven’t noticed. They are still doing evolutionary biology. How do you explain it?
which scientists? you mean dogmatic athiests like PZ Meyers? ok then, prove your theory...list the exact mutations that led to the eye, in order. oh you say you can't? yet you beleive the eye evolved....yea its called faith...not science.tsmith
June 14, 2011
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Social Darwinism is indeed an ugly ideology, which has nothing to do with whether the scientific theory of evolution is true or false.
social darwinism is applied evolution. truth hurts...you should try it sometimes. You can bring up Hitler or Social Darwinism as much as you like, it isn’t going to convince any rational person that the scientific theory of evolution is false. Nor would it convince them that it was true. It is simply irrelevant to the scientific facts Ideas have consequences.
A direct line runs from Darwin, through the founder of the eugenics movement-Darwin's cousin, Francis Galton-to the extermination camps of Nazi Europe." (Brookes, Martin.,"Ripe old age," Review of "Of Flies, Mice and Men," by Francois Jacob, Harvard University Press, 1999. New Scientist, Vol. 161, No. 2171, 30 January 1999, p.41).
Populations change traits over time or they don’t. This is a *factual matter* that cares not if you call it a Nazi or not.
and I already listed a number of falsifications of evolution....you of course chose to ignore them....no surprise you have a great deal of difficulty dealing with things that challenge your faith in that racist theory you love so much.tsmith
June 14, 2011
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Elizabh, What happens when there are a dozen or more competing traits- each beneficial to the individals who have them? And then what happens when a flash flood comes along and wipes out the entire population?Joseph
June 14, 2011
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you are free to postulate a ‘non-reductive material’ cause for finding quantum non-locality
The rational conclusion is that the world on the small scale does not conform to our large (human) scale expectations. The rational conclusion is not "Therefore God." Again, why the religion? I thought ID was science.Driver
June 14, 2011
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OK, perhaps this formulation will make the thing clear: Heritable traits that tend to promote successful reproduction in one generation will be preferentially represented in the next. Again, it’s self-evidently true, but that doesn’t make it tautological.Elizabeth Liddle
June 14, 2011
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Mutations can alter traits- however being a human is not a trait. Blue eyes are a trait. That said there still isn't any evidence that mutations can accumulate in such a way as to give rise to new, useful and functional multi-part systems. And seeing that living organisms are full of them you would think that would count against the theory of evolution. Strange how evolutionists ignore all of that...Joseph
June 14, 2011
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paragwinn, you ask; 'on what basis do you equate local realism and materialism?' Actually local realism is equated with 'reductive materialism' on the basis of the work of A. Aspect and company. The Failure Of Local Realism – Materialism – Alain Aspect – video http://www.metacafe.com/w/4744145 etc.. etc... Paragwinn, you are free to postulate a 'non-reductive material' cause for finding quantum non-locality (quantum entanglement/information) on a massive scale within molecular biology, since only the reductive material framework, which is constrained by space-time, is falsified by the failure of local realism to explain reality, but remember in appealing to the non-reductive material framework, such as the many worlds and multiverses conjectures, you are destroying your ability to do science rationally. Michael Behe has a profound answer to the infinite multiverse (non-reductive materialism) argument in “Edge of Evolution”. If there are infinite universes, then we couldn’t trust our senses, because it would be just as likely that our universe might only consist of a human brain that pops into existence which has the neurons configured just right to only give the appearance of past memories. It would also be just as likely that we are floating brains in a lab, with some scientist feeding us fake experiences. Those scenarios would be just as likely as the one we appear to be in now (one universe with all of our experiences being “real”). Bottom line is, if there really are an infinite number of universes out there, then we can’t trust anything we perceive to be true, which means there is no point in seeking any truth whatsoever. “The multiverse idea rests on assumptions that would be laughed out of town if they came from a religious text.” Gregg Easterbrook BRUCE GORDON: Hawking’s irrational arguments – October 2010 Excerpt: For instance, we find multiverse cosmologists debating the “Boltzmann Brain” problem: In the most “reasonable” models for a multiverse, it is immeasurably more likely that our consciousness is associated with a brain that has spontaneously fluctuated into existence in the quantum vacuum than it is that we have parents and exist in an orderly universe with a 13.7 billion-year history. This is absurd. The multiverse hypothesis is therefore falsified because it renders false what we know to be true about ourselves. Clearly, embracing the multiverse idea entails a nihilistic irrationality that destroys the very possibility of science. ,,,, But alas paragwinn, how come most neo-Darwinian atheists will choose a world of absurd irrationality over God???bornagain77
June 14, 2011
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Elizabeth: Aren't these finding consistent with what breeders encounter? That is, you can only breed so many types of a cat or dog, e.g., before they become sickly. Now, you want to say that "fitness" is relative to the environment. Fine. But in the case of breeders, how has the environment changed? It hasn't. The breeds just get more sickly. There's a "limit" to evolution (Oops! Breeding one type of a cat to get another kind of a cat isn't evolution is it?). The articles being analyzed here show that, in a mathematical sense, mutations "converge" onto a certain level of "fitness" increase. This is a "limit" to evolution, it it not? And, what does this mean for neo-Darwinian evolution? Directed selection would seem to 'peter out'. And, with neutral drift, since any "new beneficial mutation" will have increasingly slight advantage, there's all those "deleterious mutations" that can become fixed as well. None of this bodes well for neo-Darwinism, does it, EL? And, I bet you were "surprised" by their findings, right?PaV
June 14, 2011
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When things replicate with variance, things that LEAVE MORE OFFSPRING will LEAVE MORE OFFSPRING.
The tautology is in the semantics, not the process. Its a type of feedback cycle. If I get an amp, speaker and mic, and stick the mic in the speaker I can say 'an increase in sound level will cause an increase in sound level'DrBot
June 14, 2011
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Mung:
When things replicate with variance, things that LEAVE MORE OFFSPRING will LEAVE MORE OFFSPRING.
Yes. Now, think about the implications of that obviously true statement. Which is: variants of traits which, for whatever reason, increase the probability with which the phenotype will produce offspring will become more prevalent in the population. Again, it's obviously true. But has profound implications. And, btw, there is no "game". I hope eventually you will come to see that I am, in fact, honest.Elizabeth Liddle
June 14, 2011
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kf, where are your calls for civility now that the ID proponents are dishing out rude remarks to people honestly trying to engage them? or do you also question those people's honesty and integrity?paragwinn
June 14, 2011
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ba77, on what basis do you equate local realism and materialism?paragwinn
June 14, 2011
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Elizabeth Liddle @87:
As for your point about tautology – it’s fair one, as this is always a problem in discussing evolutionary theory, because it does sound tautological. It isn’t though, it’s just so simple that it sounds that way.
This is false. It's not tautological because it's simple. It's tautological because it is tautological. Now there's a tautology for you!
When things replicate with variance, things that replicate better will be replicated more often. It’s so obviously true, it’s almost not worth saying!
Then stop saying it. Nice try Lizzie. Have you not figured out that we're on to you and your little game with the meaning of natural selection? Time to stop now.
So “fitter” simply means “replicates better”
Hand waving. Watch the shell. Find the pea. It's not what does fitness mean, since no one was talking about fitness. It's what does "replicates better" mean and what does "will be replicated more often mean"? Let me guess. It means LEAVES MORE OFFSPRING. So what you meant to say was: When things replicate with variance, things that LEAVE MORE OFFSPRING will LEAVE MORE OFFSPRING. No wonder it sounds so simple. It is. Tautologically simple.Mung
June 14, 2011
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Elizabeth Liddle:
...beneficial mutations are more likely to accumulate than deleterious once.
By the very fact alone that deleterious mutations vastly outnumber beneficial mutations, deleterious mutations will be more likely to increase. By force of numbers alone. Add to that the additional fact that the vast number of even beneficial mutations are lost due to chance alone and again deleterious mutations will be more likely to increase. So you're not just wrong, but doubly wrong. Egregiously wrong.Mung
June 13, 2011
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Elizabeth Liddle:
But polymorphisms have to be explained somehow, and they seem, on the whole, to be pretty cool things.
And the explanation is? Non-DarwinianMung
June 13, 2011
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of note to avoid confusion; the basic falsification criteria of ID grants the unreasonable presupposition that materialism may be true.bornagain77
June 13, 2011
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Here is the basic outline of the falsification criteria for Intelligent Design For a broad outline of the ‘Fitness test’, required to be passed to show a violation of the principle of Genetic Entropy, please see the following video and articles: Is Antibiotic Resistance evidence for evolution? – ‘The Fitness Test’ – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3995248 i.e.,, the fitness test must be passed by the sub-species against the parent species. If the fitness test is shown to be passed then the new molecular function, which provides the more robust survivability for the sub-species, must be calculated to its additional Functional Information Bits (Fits) it has gained in the beneficial adaptation, and then be found to be greater than 140 Fits. 140 Fits is what has now been generously set by Kirk Durston as the maximum limit of Functional Information which can reasonably be expected to be generated by the natural processes of the universe over the entire age of the universe (The actual limit is most likely to be around 40 Fits)(Of note: I have not seen any evidence to suggest that purely material processes can exceed the much more constrained ’2 protein-protein binding site limit’, for functional information/complexity generation, found by Michael Behe in his book “The Edge Of Evolution”). Mathematically Defining Functional Information In Molecular Biology – Kirk Durston – short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3995236 Functional information and the emergence of bio-complexity: Robert M. Hazen, Patrick L. Griffin, James M. Carothers, and Jack W. Szostak: Abstract: Complex emergent systems of many interacting components, including complex biological systems, have the potential to perform quantifiable functions. Accordingly, we define ‘functional information,’ I(Ex), as a measure of system complexity. For a given system and function, x (e.g., a folded RNA sequence that binds to GTP), and degree of function, Ex (e.g., the RNA-GTP binding energy), I(Ex)= -log2 [F(Ex)], where F(Ex) is the fraction of all possible configurations of the system that possess a degree of function > Ex. Functional information, which we illustrate with letter sequences, artificial life, and biopolymers, thus represents the probability that an arbitrary configuration of a system will achieve a specific function to a specified degree. In each case we observe evidence for several distinct solutions with different maximum degrees of function, features that lead to steps in plots of information versus degree of functions. http://genetics.mgh.harvard.edu/szostakweb/publications/Szostak_pdfs/Hazen_etal_PNAS_2007.pdf Measuring the functional sequence complexity of proteins – Kirk K Durston, David KY Chiu, David L Abel and Jack T Trevors – 2007 Excerpt: We have extended Shannon uncertainty by incorporating the data variable with a functionality variable. The resulting measured unit, which we call Functional bit (Fit), is calculated from the sequence data jointly with the defined functionality variable. To demonstrate the relevance to functional bioinformatics, a method to measure functional sequence complexity was developed and applied to 35 protein families.,,, http://www.tbiomed.com/content/4/1/47 The Capabilities of Chaos and Complexity: David L. Abel – Null Hypothesis For Information Generation – 2009 To focus the scientific community’s attention on its own tendencies toward overzealous metaphysical imagination bordering on “wish-fulfillment,” we propose the following readily falsifiable null hypothesis, and invite rigorous experimental attempts to falsify it: “Physicodynamics cannot spontaneously traverse The Cybernetic Cut: physicodynamics alone cannot organize itself into formally functional systems requiring algorithmic optimization, computational halting, and circuit integration.” A single exception of non trivial, unaided spontaneous optimization of formal function by truly natural process would falsify this null hypothesis. http://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/pdf further notes: Dr. Behe states in The Edge of Evolution on page 135: “Generating a single new cellular protein-protein binding site (in other words, generating a truly beneficial mutational event that would actually explain the generation of the complex molecular machinery we see in life) is of the same order of difficulty or worse than the development of chloroquine resistance in the malarial parasite.” That order of difficulty is put at 10^20 replications of the malarial parasite by Dr. Behe. This number comes from direct empirical observation. Richard Dawkins’ The Greatest Show on Earth Shies Away from Intelligent Design but Unwittingly Vindicates Michael Behe – Oct. 2009 Excerpt: The rarity of chloroquine resistance is not in question. In fact, Behe’s statistic that it occurs only once in every 10^20 cases was derived from public health statistical data, published by an authority in the Journal of Clinical Investigation. The extreme rareness of chloroquine resistance is not a negotiable data point; it is an observed fact. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/10/richard_dawkins_the_greatest_s026651.html “The likelihood of developing two binding sites in a protein complex would be the square of the probability of developing one: a double CCC (chloroquine complexity cluster), 10^20 times 10^20, which is 10^40. There have likely been fewer than 10^40 cells in the entire world in the past 4 billion years, so the odds are against a single event of this variety (just 2 binding sites being generated by accident) in the history of life. It is biologically unreasonable.” Michael J. Behe PhD. (from page 146 of his book “Edge of Evolution”) Nature Paper,, Finds Darwinian Processes Lacking – Michael Behe – Oct. 2009 Excerpt: Now, thanks to the work of Bridgham et al (2009), even such apparently minor switches in structure and function (of a protein to its supposed ancestral form) are shown to be quite problematic. It seems Darwinian processes can’t manage to do even as much as I had thought. (which was 1 in 10^40 for just 2 binding sites) http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/10/nature_paper_finally_reaches_t026281.html When Theory and Experiment Collide — April 16th, 2011 by Douglas Axe Excerpt: Based on our experimental observations and on calculations we made using a published population model [3], we estimated that Darwin’s mechanism would need a truly staggering amount of time—a trillion trillion years or more—to accomplish the seemingly subtle change in enzyme function that we studied. http://biologicinstitute.org/2011/04/16/when-theory-and-experiment-collide/ “The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain – Michael Behe – December 2010 Excerpt: In its most recent issue The Quarterly Review of Biology has published a review by myself of laboratory evolution experiments of microbes going back four decades.,,, The gist of the paper is that so far the overwhelming number of adaptive (that is, helpful) mutations seen in laboratory evolution experiments are either loss or modification of function. Of course we had already known that the great majority of mutations that have a visible effect on an organism are deleterious. Now, surprisingly, it seems that even the great majority of helpful mutations degrade the genome to a greater or lesser extent.,,, I dub it “The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain. etc..etc..bornagain77
June 13, 2011
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as to the falsification of materialistic neo-Darwinism: Here is the falsification of local realism (materialism). Here is a clip of a talk in which Alain Aspect talks about the failure of 'local realism', or the failure of materialism, to explain reality: The Failure Of Local Realism - Materialism - Alain Aspect - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/4744145 The falsification for local realism (materialism) was recently greatly strengthened: Physicists close two loopholes while violating local realism - November 2010 Excerpt: The latest test in quantum mechanics provides even stronger support than before for the view that nature violates local realism and is thus in contradiction with a classical worldview. http://www.physorg.com/news/2010-11-physicists-loopholes-violating-local-realism.html Quantum Measurements: Common Sense Is Not Enough, Physicists Show - July 2009 Excerpt: scientists have now proven comprehensively in an experiment for the first time that the experimentally observed phenomena cannot be described by non-contextual models with hidden variables. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090722142824.htm (of note: hidden variables were postulated to remove the need for 'spooky' forces, as Einstein termed them — forces that act instantaneously at great distances, thereby breaking the most cherished rule of relativity theory, that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light.) And yet, quantum entanglement, which rigorously falsified local realism (materialism) as the true description of reality, is now found in molecular biology! Quantum Information/Entanglement In DNA & Protein Folding – short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5936605/ Quantum entanglement holds together life’s blueprint – 2010 Excerpt: When the researchers analysed the DNA without its helical structure, they found that the electron clouds were not entangled. But when they incorporated DNA’s helical structure into the model, they saw that the electron clouds of each base pair became entangled with those of its neighbours (arxiv.org/abs/1006.4053v1). “If you didn’t have entanglement, then DNA would have a simple flat structure, and you would never get the twist that seems to be important to the functioning of DNA,” says team member Vlatko Vedral of the University of Oxford. http://neshealthblog.wordpress.com/2010/09/15/quantum-entanglement-holds-together-lifes-blueprint/ Untangling the Quantum Entanglement Behind Photosynthesis – May 11 2010 Excerpt: “This is the first study to show that entanglement, perhaps the most distinctive property of quantum mechanical systems, is present across an entire light harvesting complex,” says Mohan Sarovar, a post-doctoral researcher under UC Berkeley chemistry professor Birgitta Whaley at the Berkeley Center for Quantum Information and Computation. “While there have been prior investigations of entanglement in toy systems that were motivated by biology, this is the first instance in which entanglement has been examined and quantified in a real biological system.” http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/05/100510151356.htm i.e. It is very interesting to note that quantum entanglement, which conclusively demonstrates that ‘information’ in its pure 'quantum form' is completely transcendent of any time and space constraints, should be found in molecular biology on such a massive scale, for how can the quantum entanglement 'effect' in biology possibly be explained by a material (matter/energy) 'cause' when the quantum entanglement 'effect' falsified material particles as its own 'causation' in the first place? (A. Aspect) Appealing to the probability of various configurations of material particles, as Darwinism does, simply will not help since a timeless/spaceless cause must be supplied which is beyond the capacity of the material particles themselves to supply! To give a coherent explanation for an effect that is shown to be completely independent of any time and space constraints one is forced to appeal to a cause that is itself not limited to time and space! i.e. Put more simply, you cannot explain a effect by a cause that has been falsified by the very same effect you are seeking to explain! Improbability arguments of various 'special' configurations of material particles, which have been a staple of the arguments against neo-Darwinism, simply do not apply since the cause is not within the material particles in the first place! ,,,To refute this falsification of neo-Darwinism, one must show local realism to be sufficient to explain the quantum non-locality we find within molecular biology! ,,, As well, appealing to ‘non-reductive’ materialism (multiverse or many-worlds) to try to explain quantum non-locality in molecular biology, or anything else for that matter, destroys the very possibility of doing science rationally; Michael Behe has a profound answer to the infinite multiverse (non-reductive materialism) argument in “Edge of Evolution”. If there are infinite universes, then we couldn’t trust our senses, because it would be just as likely that our universe might only consist of a human brain that pops into existence which has the neurons configured just right to only give the appearance of past memories. It would also be just as likely that we are floating brains in a lab, with some scientist feeding us fake experiences. Those scenarios would be just as likely as the one we appear to be in now (one universe with all of our experiences being “real”). Bottom line is, if there really are an infinite number of universes out there, then we can’t trust anything we perceive to be true, which means there is no point in seeking any truth whatsoever. “The multiverse idea rests on assumptions that would be laughed out of town if they came from a religious text.” Gregg Easterbrook BRUCE GORDON: Hawking’s irrational arguments – October 2010 Excerpt: For instance, we find multiverse cosmologists debating the “Boltzmann Brain” problem: In the most “reasonable” models for a multiverse, it is immeasurably more likely that our consciousness is associated with a brain that has spontaneously fluctuated into existence in the quantum vacuum than it is that we have parents and exist in an orderly universe with a 13.7 billion-year history. This is absurd. The multiverse hypothesis is therefore falsified because it renders false what we know to be true about ourselves. Clearly, embracing the multiverse idea entails a nihilistic irrationality that destroys the very possibility of science. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/oct/1/hawking-irrational-arguments/ ================= Alain Aspect and Anton Zeilinger by Richard Conn Henry - Physics Professor - John Hopkins University Excerpt: Why do people cling with such ferocity to belief in a mind-independent reality? It is surely because if there is no such reality, then ultimately (as far as we can know) mind alone exists. And if mind is not a product of real matter, but rather is the creator of the "illusion" of material reality (which has, in fact, despite the materialists, been known to be the case, since the discovery of quantum mechanics in 1925), then a theistic view of our existence becomes the only rational alternative to solipsism (solipsism is the philosophical idea that only one's own mind is sure to exist). (Dr. Henry's referenced experiment and paper - “An experimental test of non-local realism” by S. Gröblacher et. al., Nature 446, 871, April 2007 - “To be or not to be local” by Alain Aspect, Nature 446, 866, April 2007bornagain77
June 13, 2011
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of interest; new podcast "Hitler's Ethic and the Pursuit of Evolutionary Progress in Nazi Policy" http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/entry/2011-06-13T14_03_16-07_00bornagain77
June 13, 2011
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but evolution has been falsified
The scientists haven't noticed. They are still doing evolutionary biology. How do you explain it?Driver
June 13, 2011
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Social Darwinism is indeed an ugly ideology, which has nothing to do with whether the scientific theory of evolution is true or false. You can bring up Hitler or Social Darwinism as much as you like, it isn't going to convince any rational person that the scientific theory of evolution is false. Nor would it convince them that it was true. It is simply irrelevant to the scientific facts. Either all life is descended from a common ancestor or it isn't. This is a fact that is immune to argumentum ad Hitlerum. Populations change traits over time or they don't. This is a *factual matter* that cares not if you call it a Nazi or not.Driver
June 13, 2011
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tjguy, Evolution is the change over time in inherited traits found in populations of organisms. A finch's beak is an inherited trait; a finch is an organism. In some populations of finches (on one island), the finches have shorter beaks (on average); in another population (on another island), the finches have longer beaks. Both populations of finches descended from one ancestral population, which was (and looked) slightly different to both. The populations of finches we find now have changed their traits (e.g beaks) over time. This is evolution.Driver
June 13, 2011
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Scientific theories are not falsified by association with Nazis.
its much more than a scientific theory, obviously...
"'Social Darwinism' is often taken to be something extraneous, an ugly concretion added to the pure Darwinian corpus after the event, tarnishing Darwin's image. But his notebooks make plain that competition, free trade, imperialism, racial extermination, and sexual inequality were written into the equation from the start- 'Darwinism' was always intended to explain human society." (Desmond, Adrian [Science historian, University College, London] & Moore, James [Science historian, The Open University, UK], "Darwin," [1991], Penguin: London, 1992, reprint, pp.xix).
but evolution has been falsified by the lack of support in the fossil record, in the lab, by the many false prediction such a 'vestigial organs' (no such thing) junk dna...no junk, sorry...the tree of life...no tree...sorry.
Anyway, I thought we were discussing the scientific theory of ID, not religion.
people like you prove evolution is a faith...you never let facts get in the way of your faith in evolution.tsmith
June 13, 2011
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After Watson made his infamous comments, DNA didn’t cease to exist. A theory either explains facts about the world or it does not.
evolutionary racism didn't cease to exist either. your precious theory sure explains racism.
Hitler wasn’t into Darwinism at all (He had Origin of the Species burnt), as it happens, but it would make no difference to the facts if he had called his book “I love evolution”. Evolution either explains the facts or it doesn’t.
oh of course nothing makes a difference to the faithful darwiniac...praise darwin. here ya go...all these historians are closet CREATIONISTS...I'm sure thats what you will tell yourself...
The Darwin-Hitler connection is no recent discovery. In her classic 1951 work The Origins of Totalitarianism, Hannah Arendt wrote: “Underlying the Nazis’ belief in race laws as the expression of the law of nature in man, is Darwin’s idea of man as the product of a natural development which does not necessarily stop with the present species of human being.” The standard biographies of Hitler almost all point to the influence of Darwinism on their subject. In Hitler: A Study in Tyranny, Alan Bullock writes: “The basis of Hitler’s political beliefs was a crude Darwinism.” What Hitler found objectionable about Christianity was its rejection of Darwin’s theory: “Its teaching, he declared, was a rebellion against the natural law of selection by struggle and the survival of the fittest.” John Toland’s Adolf Hitler: The Definitive Biography says this of Hitler’s Second Book published in 1928: “An essential of Hitler’s conclusions in this book was the conviction drawn from Darwin that might makes right.” In his biography, Hitler: 1889-1936: Hubris, Ian Kershaw explains that “crude social-Darwinism” gave Hitler “his entire political ‘world-view.’ ” Hitler, like lots of other Europeans and Americans of his day, saw Darwinism as offering a total picture of social reality. This view called “social Darwinism” is a logical extension of Darwinian evolutionary theory and was articulated by Darwin himself. http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=Mjg1NDg2ZDM5YTMwMGFiZGNhNTU5M2MwOTQ2NGE1Mjc=
oh did the good doctor get back to you? I'm sure he'd drop everything to respond to such an august person as yourself......tsmith
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Scientific theories are not falsified by association with Nazis. "evolutionary ethics", or any kind of ethics, has nothing to do with scientific theories. If I have a theory that my cat knocked over my tea, it is either true or false that my cat knocked over my tea. If I hate cats or my cat is called Hitler, or someone says me or my cat are Nazis, or Hitler liked cats, it doesn't change the fact of how my tea got knocked over. Similarly, evolution either explains the facts of the world or it doesn't. Again, consider a lunatic who has a book called “When water boils at 100 degrees I do something evil.” If he kills a billion people, what is the boiling point of water? I think it is a dangerous road to go down if you want to start believing or not believing things based on whether Hitler believed them.
if you ultimately believe the lie that life is the result of a purposeless process, well then life has no purpose for you
This is simply false. Anyway, I thought we were discussing the scientific theory of ID, not religion.Driver
June 13, 2011
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Elizabeth, I apologize for going so far back in the message list, but in your second response I found this: "On the other hand there is some evidence that women’s access to fertility control may be resulting in extended fertility, which would make sense; as women postpone child-bearing, women bearing alleles (whether new or existing) that tend to result in later menopause are more likely to have children than those bearing alleles that promote earlier menopause earlier. The former will therefore tend to increase in prevalence, and there is some evidence that they are doing so." I understand how natural selection may be selecting for women bearing alleles (whether new or existing) that tend to result in later menopause, but there is a limit to the extent that menopause can be delayed. This is not evolution. It is just like the finch beak example. In a certain environment, the long beaks are selected for and in a different environment, the shorter beaks are selected for and it goes back and forth depending on the environment. Result, no net change. Natural selection is good at doing that, but it cannot come up with new genetic information, genes, etc that would allow new organs to be formed. This example just shows to support Mendel's laws of genetics. If the information is not there to begin with, it cannot be selected. Natural selection can play with what it finds in the genome pool already, but it cannot create any new information.tjguy
June 13, 2011
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Driver exactly how do you derive objective morality from materialism? i.e. an ought from an is? The Knock-Down Argument Against Atheist Sam Harris - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvDyLs_cReE Driver sadly, and I can only hope innocently for you, you are severely misinformed as to Darwin's 'sufficient condition' that was provided towards the holocaust in his book: From Darwin to Hitler - Richard Weikart - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_5EwYpLD6A A expanded look at Hitler's ethic, by Weikart, is now out in paperback: New in Paperback: Hitler's Ethic by Richard Weikart Excerpt: In this work Weikart helps unlock the mystery of Hitler's evil by vividly demonstrating the surprising conclusion that Hitler's immorality flowed from a coherent ethic. Hitler was inspired by evolutionary ethics to pursue the utopian project of biologically improving the human race. Hitler's evolutionary ethic underlay or influenced almost every major feature of Nazi policy: eugenics (i.e., measures to improve human heredity, including compulsory sterilization), euthanasia, racism, population expansion, offensive warfare, and racial extermination. Hitler also believed that morality was biologically innate, so he thought that eliminating the "evil" Jews would bring moral progress. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/06/new_in_paperback_hitlers_ethic047311.html The Dark Legacy Of Charles Darwin - 150 Years Later - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4060594/ How Darwin's Theory Changed the World - Rejection of Judeo-Christian values Excerpt: Weikart explains how accepting Darwinist dogma shifted society’s thinking on human life: “Before Darwinism burst onto the scene in the mid-nineteenth century, the idea of the sanctity of human life was dominant in European thought and law (though, as with all ethical principles, not always followed in practice). Judeo-Christian ethics proscribed the killing of innocent human life, and the Christian churches explicitly forbade murder, infanticide, abortion, and even suicide. “The sanctity of human life became enshrined in classical liberal human rights ideology as ‘the right to life,’ which according to John Locke and the United States Declaration of Independence, was one of the supreme rights of every individual” (p. 75). Only in the late nineteenth and especially the early twentieth century did significant debate erupt over issues relating to the sanctity of human life, especially infanticide, euthanasia, abortion, and suicide. It was no mere coincidence that these contentious issues emerged at the same time that Darwinism was gaining in influence. Darwinism played an important role in this debate, for it altered many people’s conceptions of the importance and value of human life, as well as the significance of death” (ibid.). ,,,And Driver, the war against basic human worth and dignity, by neo-Darwinian materialism, continues unabated,,, for the body count for abortion is now over 50 million in America since it was legalized in 1973: Born Alive – Abortion Survivor Gianna Jessen http://www.faithandfacts.com/abortion/born-alive-abortion-survivor-gianna-jessen/ further notes: Stalin's Brutal Faith http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=articles&action=view&ID=276 The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression: Excerpt: Essentially a body count of communism's victims in the 20th century, the book draws heavily from recently opened Soviet archives. The verdict: communism was responsible for between 85 million and 100 million, non-war related, deaths in the century. (of note: this estimate is viewed as very conservative by many, with some more realistic estimates passing 200 million dead) (Of Note: Atheistic Communism is defined as Dialectic Materialism) http://www.amazon.com/Black-Book-Communism-Crimes-Repression/dp/0674076087 The unmitigated horror visited upon man, by state sponsored atheism, would be hard to exaggerate,,, Chairman MAO: Genocide Master “…Many scholars and commentators have referenced my total of 174,000,000 for the democide (genocide and mass murder) of the last century. I’m now trying to get word out that I’ve had to make a major revision in my total due to two books. I’m now convinced that that Stalin exceeded Hitler in monstrous evil, and Mao beat out Stalin….” http://wadias.in/site/arzan/blog/chairman-mao-genocide-master/ Lives Saved By Christianity Excerpt: here is an article, detailing how Christianity improved the status of women and saved millions of people in ancient Rome from death by female infanticide and from the plagues which periodically swept the Roman Empire: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/a-simple-start/#comment-337994 From Josh McDowell, Evidence for Christianity, in giving examples of the influence of Jesus Christ cites many examples. Here are just a few: 1. Hospitals 2. Universities 3. Literacy and education for the masses 4. Representative government 5. Separation of political powers 6. Civil liberties 7. Abolition of slavery 8. Modern science 9. The elevation of the common man 10. High regard for human life Driver, beliefs have consequences, if you ultimately believe the lie that life is the result of a purposeless process, well then life has no purpose for you and you will act more or less accordingly!!!bornagain77
June 13, 2011
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Driver exactly how do you derive objective morality from materialism? i.e. an ought from an is? The Knock-Down Argument Against Atheist Sam Harris - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvDyLs_cReE Driver sadly, and I can only hope innocently for you, you are severely misinformed as to Darwin's 'sufficient condition' that was provided towards the holocaust in his book: From Darwin to Hitler - Richard Weikart - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_5EwYpLD6A A expanded look at Hitler's ethic, by Weikart, is now out in paperback: New in Paperback: Hitler's Ethic by Richard Weikart Excerpt: In this work Weikart helps unlock the mystery of Hitler's evil by vividly demonstrating the surprising conclusion that Hitler's immorality flowed from a coherent ethic. Hitler was inspired by evolutionary ethics to pursue the utopian project of biologically improving the human race. Hitler's evolutionary ethic underlay or influenced almost every major feature of Nazi policy: eugenics (i.e., measures to improve human heredity, including compulsory sterilization), euthanasia, racism, population expansion, offensive warfare, and racial extermination. Hitler also believed that morality was biologically innate, so he thought that eliminating the "evil" Jews would bring moral progress. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/06/new_in_paperback_hitlers_ethic047311.html The Dark Legacy Of Charles Darwin - 150 Years Later - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4060594/ How Darwin's Theory Changed the World - Rejection of Judeo-Christian values Excerpt: Weikart explains how accepting Darwinist dogma shifted society’s thinking on human life: “Before Darwinism burst onto the scene in the mid-nineteenth century, the idea of the sanctity of human life was dominant in European thought and law (though, as with all ethical principles, not always followed in practice). Judeo-Christian ethics proscribed the killing of innocent human life, and the Christian churches explicitly forbade murder, infanticide, abortion, and even suicide. “The sanctity of human life became enshrined in classical liberal human rights ideology as ‘the right to life,’ which according to John Locke and the United States Declaration of Independence, was one of the supreme rights of every individual” (p. 75). Only in the late nineteenth and especially the early twentieth century did significant debate erupt over issues relating to the sanctity of human life, especially infanticide, euthanasia, abortion, and suicide. It was no mere coincidence that these contentious issues emerged at the same time that Darwinism was gaining in influence. Darwinism played an important role in this debate, for it altered many people’s conceptions of the importance and value of human life, as well as the significance of death” (ibid.). http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn85/darwin-theory-changed-world.htm And Driver, the war against basic human worth and dignity, by neo-Darwinian materialism, continues unabated,,, for the body count for abortion is now over 50 million in America since it was legalized in 1973: Born Alive – Abortion Survivor Gianna Jessen http://www.faithandfacts.com/abortion/born-alive-abortion-survivor-gianna-jessen/ further notes: Stalin's Brutal Faith http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=articles&action=view&ID=276 The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression: Excerpt: Essentially a body count of communism's victims in the 20th century, the book draws heavily from recently opened Soviet archives. The verdict: communism was responsible for between 85 million and 100 million, non-war related, deaths in the century. (of note: this estimate is viewed as very conservative by many, with some more realistic estimates passing 200 million dead) (Of Note: Atheistic Communism is defined as Dialectic Materialism) http://www.amazon.com/Black-Book-Communism-Crimes-Repression/dp/0674076087 The unmitigated horror visited upon man, by state sponsored atheism, would be hard to exaggerate,,, Chairman MAO: Genocide Master “…Many scholars and commentators have referenced my total of 174,000,000 for the democide (genocide and mass murder) of the last century. I’m now trying to get word out that I’ve had to make a major revision in my total due to two books. I’m now convinced that that Stalin exceeded Hitler in monstrous evil, and Mao beat out Stalin….” http://wadias.in/site/arzan/blog/chairman-mao-genocide-master/ Lives Saved By Christianity Excerpt: here is an article, detailing how Christianity improved the status of women and saved millions of people in ancient Rome from death by female infanticide and from the plagues which periodically swept the Roman Empire: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/a-simple-start/#comment-337994 From Josh McDowell, Evidence for Christianity, in giving examples of the influence of Jesus Christ cites many examples. Here are just a few: 1. Hospitals 2. Universities 3. Literacy and education for the masses 4. Representative government 5. Separation of political powers 6. Civil liberties 7. Abolition of slavery 8. Modern science 9. The elevation of the common man 10. High regard for human life Driver, beliefs have consequences, if you ultimately believe the lie that life is the result of a purposeless process, well then life has no purpose for you and you will act more or less accordingly!!!bornagain77
June 13, 2011
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tsmith: "Biological arguments for racism may have been common before 1859, but they increased by orders of magnitude following the acceptance of evolutionary theory.” Stephen Jay Gould" You mean like this gem: Evolutionary psychologist Satoshi Kanazawa posted a piece on the Psychology Today website (originally titled Black Women Are Ugly) that was retitled a few times before deletion. http://www.whatsonchengdu.com/news-683-black-women-are-ugly-uk-psychologist-satoshi-kanazawa-sparks-outrage.html Black girls: 0 Darwin: 1junkdnaforlife
June 13, 2011
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Darwin’s views are driven by his theory of evolution…just like Waton’s views are
After Watson made his infamous comments, DNA didn't cease to exist. A theory either explains facts about the world or it does not.
On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life. struggle…where have I heard that word used in the title of a book….let me think…..oh yeah….my struggle…mein kempf….
Consider a lunatic who has a book called "When water boils at 100 degrees I do something evil." If he kills a billion people, what is the boiling point of water? Hitler wasn't into Darwinism at all (He had Origin of the Species burnt), as it happens, but it would make no difference to the facts if he had called his book "I love evolution". Evolution either explains the facts or it doesn't.Driver
June 13, 2011
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