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Recent papers confirm that genetic entropy decreases fitness

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entropy illustrated

Over at Creation-Evolution Headlines, Dave Coppedge reports that two recent journal article’s have confirmed Cornell’s John Sanford’s “genetic entropy”: An accumulation of mutations always decreases fitness (contrary to neo-Darwinists’ hopes):

For mutations under epistasis to produce innovation, there must be a way for them to work together (synergistic epistasis). This is often assumed but has not been observed. Most experiments have shown beneficial mutations working against each other (antagonistic epistasis; see 12/14/2006), or causing even less fitness than if they acted alone (decompensatory epistasis; see 10/19/2004). In a new paper in Science,3 Khan et al, working with Richard Lenski [Michigan State], leader of the longest-running experiment on evolution of E. coli, found a law of diminishing returns with beneficial mutations due to negative epistasis.

Diminishing returns?

Like this, for example?: An increased number of spelling errors in a letter retyped in series by a number of different people does not add up to a new, better letter over time?

Coppedge also notes the way the science media handled the news, for example:

“The more mutations the researchers added, the more they interfered with each other,” was one of the “surprising” results.

Surprising to whom? Not to Dembski and other members of the No Free Lunch club.

Follow UD News for breaking news on the design controversy.

Comments
why don't you tell me, since only you know the secret code and can decipher what he really said...not what was actually reported, which we all know is part of the *conspiracy*tsmith
June 13, 2011
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tsmith: OK, thanks for the more detailed response:
First of all we have a sentence that doesn’t make logical sense (you can’t have a “rate” of “fitness” right?)
why not? what is your measure for fitness? if you can’t quantify it then its not science…just a tautology….if its fit, it survives…how do you know its fit? it survives.
Yes, you can quantify it, and the math is in the paper. But you are right, "fitness" in population genetics is a measure of breeding (rather than survival) probability. "Increase in fitness" means, by definition, that "the probability of breeding is increased". And empirically, it is measured by the change in frequency of the allele in question. If the frequency increases, then the allele is deemed beneficial; if it decreases, then it is deemed "deleterious". You can also directly measure it by breeding rate, compared with the ancestral population.
So we check the findings, and find, in an actual proof-read paper (not a press-release), supported by data and graphs, that it was indeed the increase in fitness that declined, not fitness.
the author of the paper was taking his finding to their logical conclusion….which is ‘fitness’ hits a tipping point…and you get a mutational meltdown. which is genetic entropy.
Well, no, that is not what the paper reports. What the paper reports (at least the second one, Khan et al, I haven't read the other) is five mutations, each of which increased in frequency (indeed went to "fixation" in their respective populations, i.e. propagated through the entire population), hence were deemed beneficial. Then they transferred each mutation into clones of the ancestral population in all possible combinations, and compared the fitness of each new population (32 populations, i.e. 2^5) Of the five, one was not beneficial (did not increase in frequency) unless it was accompanied by the others. Of the rest, being in company with the others did not confer much additional fitness. So their conclusion was that five times a good thing isn't five times better than one thing, only a little better, except in one case where one mutation only conferred a benefit when in combination with the others. I'm summarising - there are more details about each mutation. But they do not report "genetic meltdown" - indeed the populations with all five mutations were fitter than the populations without any, just not hugely better than those with three or four. And it's probably worth pointing out that these five mutations were artificially transferred to clones of the ancestral population - this was not a case of natural "mutational build up". Indeed, the mutations were transferred into clones of the ancestral "originals".
How can you possibly continue to maintain that the quote from Tom Cooper in the press release meant that “fitness declined”? The paper says the opposite, and even the quote doesn’t say that (it says “the rate of fitness declined” which makes no sense anyway, because fitness doesn’t have a rate!)
because thats what he said…how hard is this? I find it amusing to see how far you can twist and turn to avoid what the author of that study said!
I'm going by what the author of the study said in the paper!
you just prove that evolution is a matter of faith…and nothing can be said or shown to shake your faith.
Ah well.Elizabeth Liddle
June 13, 2011
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So what did the article say about the fitness of the bacterial population?Driver
June 13, 2011
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DrREC as to this statement of yours: 'He presents a creationist article.' Now DrREC, apparently 'creationist article' is suppose to make the article not as legitimate as a atheistic article,,, Yet, despite your intended slur, it would seem that since the universe is now shown to be Theistic in its foundation,,,
Alain Aspect and Anton Zeilinger by Richard Conn Henry - Physics Professor - John Hopkins University Excerpt: Why do people cling with such ferocity to belief in a mind-independent reality? It is surely because if there is no such reality, then ultimately (as far as we can know) mind alone exists. And if mind is not a product of real matter, but rather is the creator of the "illusion" of material reality (which has, in fact, despite the materialists, been known to be the case, since the discovery of quantum mechanics in 1925), then a theistic view of our existence becomes the only rational alternative to solipsism (solipsism is the philosophical idea that only one's own mind is sure to exist). (Dr. Henry's referenced experiment and paper - “An experimental test of non-local realism” by S. Gröblacher et. al., Nature 446, 871, April 2007 - “To be or not to be local” by Alain Aspect, Nature 446, 866, April 2007 http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/aspect.html
,,,that at least you, DrREC, would be a little more sober minded as to your derogatory comments towards 'creationists articles'. :) I don't know about you DrREC, but as for me, the prospect that I may ultimately have to face the Creator of this universe when I die, to give an account of myself, rightly inspires reverential fear as to the thought of the proposition, and indeed makes me greatly appreciate the dire need I have for the perfect atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ so that I may stand worthy before such unimaginable glory as must belong to the Creator of this universe!!! I don't know DrREC, perhaps you feel that man has no soul and that you will not have to God when you die?!? If so, there is now strong evidence to show that you are wrong in this reasoning of yours as well: Quantum mind–body problem Parallels between quantum mechanics and mind/body dualism were first drawn by the founders of quantum mechanics including Erwin Schrödinger, Werner Heisenberg, Wolfgang Pauli, Niels Bohr, and Eugene Wigner The ‘Fourth Dimension’ Of Living Systems https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1Gs_qvlM8-7bFwl9rZUB9vS6SZgLH17eOZdT4UbPoy0Y ,,, DrREC,,,besides life having a 'higher dimensional' component to it, there is also now shown to be a higher 'eternal dimension' above this temporal material reality: notes: ....To grasp the whole 'time coming to a complete stop at the speed of light' concept a little more easily, imagine moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light. Would not the hands on the clock stay stationary as you moved away from the face of the clock at the speed of light? Moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light happens to be the same 'thought experiment' that gave Einstein his breakthrough insight into e=mc2. Albert Einstein - Special Relativity - Insight Into Eternity - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/6545941/ Experimental confirmation of Time Dilation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation#Experimental_confirmation It is very interesting to note that this strange higher dimensional, eternal, framework for time, found in special relativity, finds corroboration in Near Death Experience testimonies: 'In the 'spirit world,,, instantly, there was no sense of time. See, everything on earth is related to time. You got up this morning, you are going to go to bed tonight. Something is new, it will get old. Something is born, it's going to die. Everything on the physical plane is relative to time, but everything in the spiritual plane is relative to eternity. Instantly I was in total consciousness and awareness of eternity, and you and I as we live in this earth cannot even comprehend it, because everything that we have here is filled within the veil of the temporal life. In the spirit life that is more real than anything else and it is awesome. Eternity as a concept is awesome. There is no such thing as time. I knew that whatever happened was going to go on and on.' Mickey Robinson - Near Death Experience testimony 'When you die, you enter eternity. It feels like you were always there, and you will always be there. You realize that existence on Earth is only just a brief instant.' Dr. Ken Ring - has extensively studied Near Death Experiences It is also very interesting to point out that the 'light at the end of the tunnel', reported in very many Near Death Experiences(NDEs), is also corroborated by Special Relativity when considering the optical effects for traveling at the speed of light. Please compare the similarity of the optical effect, noted at the 3:22 minute mark of the following video, when the 3-Dimensional world 'folds and collapses' into a tunnel shape around the direction of travel as an observer moves towards the 'higher dimension' of the speed of light, with the 'light at the end of the tunnel' reported in very many Near Death Experiences: Traveling At The Speed Of Light - Optical Effects - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5733303/ The NDE and the Tunnel - Kevin Williams' research conclusions Excerpt: I started to move toward the light. The way I moved, the physics, was completely different than it is here on Earth. It was something I had never felt before and never felt since. It was a whole different sensation of motion. I obviously wasn't walking or skipping or crawling. I was not floating. I was flowing. I was flowing toward the light. I was accelerating and I knew I was accelerating, but then again, I didn't really feel the acceleration. I just knew I was accelerating toward the light. Again, the physics was different - the physics of motion of time, space, travel. It was completely different in that tunnel, than it is here on Earth. I came out into the light and when I came out into the light, I realized that I was in heaven.(Barbara Springer) Near Death Experience – The Tunnel, The Light, The Life Review – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4200200/ ,,, DrREC, I've seen you go to extraordinary extremes to deny the overwhelming evidence of design in life, but I would hope in this instance that you at least pause, and know that God REALLY DID create this universe and all life in it, and then soberly consider what MAY be truly unimaginable consequences for you in denying God and choosing to be separate from Him in your thoughts.bornagain77
June 13, 2011
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no I just wrote a few words down and they happened to match exactly what dr. cooper said in that article... just more proof of evolution.tsmith
June 13, 2011
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tsmith, Did you read the Science Daily article?Driver
June 13, 2011
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I will give a simple analogy: bigger heavier people are stronger than smaller lighter people... thats true, up to a point...a lightweight can lift a higher percentage of their bodyweight than a superheavyweight.... then of course you get to the point where a very heavy person cannot get out of bed...and even lift their own body...much less any additional weight.tsmith
June 13, 2011
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And unless the authors lied in the paper, and inadvertently let slip a garbled version of the truth to the university PR person writing the press release, the facts say that fitness increase declined with successive mutations!
the facts say that the fitness keeps declining...until it crosses the line and the fitness gains become losses...this is perfectly logical...to any who are not blinded by their faith in evolution.tsmith
June 13, 2011
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First of all we have a sentence that doesn’t make logical sense (you can’t have a “rate” of “fitness” right?)
why not? what is your measure for fitness? if you can't quantify it then its not science...just a tautology....if its fit, it survives...how do you know its fit? it survives.
So we check the findings, and find, in an actual proof-read paper (not a press-release), supported by data and graphs, that it was indeed the increase in fitness that declined, not fitness.
the author of the paper was taking his finding to their logical conclusion....which is 'fitness' hits a tipping point...and you get a mutational meltdown. which is genetic entropy.
How can you possibly continue to maintain that the quote from Tom Cooper in the press release meant that “fitness declined”? The paper says the opposite, and even the quote doesn’t say that (it says “the rate of fitness declined” which makes no sense anyway, because fitness doesn’t have a rate!)
because thats what he said...how hard is this? I find it amusing to see how far you can twist and turn to avoid what the author of that study said! you just prove that evolution is a matter of faith...and nothing can be said or shown to shake your faith.tsmith
June 13, 2011
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Fascinating to witness the evolution of an ID paradigm.Driver
June 13, 2011
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tsmith, I won't belabour this point much more, but I am really bemused. First of all we have a sentence that doesn't make logical sense (you can't have a "rate" of "fitness" right?) And so we assume that either "rate" shouldn't be there or "fitness" should be "fitness increase". You decide that the first is the most likely parsing. However, the person quoted is actually the author of the paper, and is describing the findings. So we check the findings, and find, in an actual proof-read paper (not a press-release), supported by data and graphs, that it was indeed the increase in fitness that declined, not fitness. Moreover, this was only true of four out of the five mutations studied - in the fifth, the opposite was the case: alone, that mutation was neutral, but in combination with the others it was beneficial. How can you possibly continue to maintain that the quote from Tom Cooper in the press release meant that "fitness declined"? The paper says the opposite, and even the quote doesn't say that (it says "the rate of fitness declined" which makes no sense anyway, because fitness doesn't have a rate!) Seriously, it's not I who is refusing to let facts get in the way! I've actually read the paper! And unless the authors lied in the paper, and inadvertently let slip a garbled version of the truth to the university PR person writing the press release, the facts say that fitness increase declined with successive mutations! And do you really think that is a more likely scenario? Which would you generally have most faith in - a newspaper article about something, reporting an informal oral statement that contains a logical inconsistency, or a published proof-read scholarly paper about it? Anyway, let's leave it there. I will continue to assume that the authors meant what they report in the papers, and you can continue to assume that they meant what you think one of the authors said in a press release, but which contradicts the papers. Peace :) LizzieElizabeth Liddle
June 13, 2011
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Well, Science Daily is off the hook – the mistake is in the press release as well: http://www.uh.edu/news-events/.....stasis.php
uh its obviously not a mistake. you just can't handle the truth.tsmith
June 13, 2011
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Well, no, it’s not a huge assumption. The sentence doesn’t actually make sense as it stands, so there’s definitely a mistake. So candidate errors are, as you suggest, that the words “the rate of” are extraneous, or, alternatively that the word “increase” is missing.
it makes a great deal of sense...but apparently you don't like to let facts get in the way of your faith in evolution. no it doesn't 'clear things up' at all...you present what you want to believe...not what truly is... as those other papers I posted demonstrate. Threshold robustness is inherently epistatic—once the stability threshold is exhausted, the deleterious effects of mutations become fully pronounced, thereby making proteins far less robust than generally assumed.tsmith
June 13, 2011
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DrBot; perhaps you would care to show material processes creating a code??? There's a million dollars in it for you!!! "The Origin-of-Life Prize" ® (hereafter called "the Prize") will be awarded for proposing a highly plausible natural-process mechanism for the spontaneous rise of genetic instructions in nature sufficient to give rise to life. The explanation must be consistent with empirical biochemical, kinetic, and thermodynamic concepts as further delineated herein, and be published in a well-respected, peer-reviewed science journal(s). http://www.us.net/life/index.htm The DNA Code - Solid Scientific Proof Of Intelligent Design - Perry Marshall - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4060532 Moreover the first DNA code of life on earth had to be at least as complex as the current DNA code found in life: Shannon Information - Channel Capacity - Perry Marshall - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5457552/ “Because of Shannon channel capacity that previous (first) codon alphabet had to be at least as complex as the current codon alphabet (DNA code), otherwise transferring the information from the simpler alphabet into the current alphabet would have been mathematically impossible” Donald E. Johnson – Bioinformatics: The Information in Life Deciphering Design in the Genetic Code Excerpt: When researchers calculated the error-minimization capacity of one million randomly generated genetic codes, they discovered that the error-minimization values formed a distribution where the naturally occurring genetic code's capacity occurred outside the distribution. Researchers estimate the existence of 10 possible genetic codes possessing the same type and degree of redundancy as the universal genetic code. All of these codes fall within the error-minimization distribution. This finding means that of the 10 possible genetic codes, few, if any, have an error-minimization capacity that approaches the code found universally in nature. http://www.reasons.org/biology/biochemical-design/fyi-id-dna-deciphering-design-genetic-code ==================== Codes and Axioms are always the result of mental intention, not material processes https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1PrE2Syt5SJUxeh2YBBBWrrPailC3uTFMdqPMFrzvwDYbornagain77
June 13, 2011
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of note: "The likelihood of developing two binding sites in a protein complex would be the square of the probability of developing one: a double CCC (chloroquine complexity cluster), 10^20 times 10^20, which is 10^40. There have likely been fewer than 10^40 cells in the entire world in the past 4 billion years, so the odds are against a single event of this variety (just 2 binding sites being generated by accident) in the history of life. It is biologically unreasonable." Michael J. Behe PhD. (from page 146 of his book "Edge of Evolution") Nature Paper,, Finds Darwinian Processes Lacking - Michael Behe - Oct. 2009 Excerpt: Now, thanks to the work of Bridgham et al (2009), even such apparently minor switches in structure and function (of a protein to its supposed ancestral form) are shown to be quite problematic. It seems Darwinian processes can’t manage to do even as much as I had thought. (which was 1 in 10^40 for just 2 binding sites) http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/10/nature_paper_finally_reaches_t.htmlbornagain77
June 13, 2011
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DrREC, please do quote the rest of the article DrREC: but as to the part you quoted: Some bacteria that have an antibiotic resistance gene integrated into their chromosome can make compensatory mutations, over multiple, successive generations. These resistant bacteria compete favorably with wild-type bacteria in nature given certain environmental conditions, Thus DrREC, due to 'compensatory mutations' bringing the bacteria up to par, (which I hold is negligible due to 'sensitivity of test) this is 'PASSING" the fitness test for you???? EXCUSE me DrREC, but your claim is that parent strain plus evolved ability is MORE FIT than the parent strain alone. You MUST DEMONSTRATE a gain in fitness. But Alas DrREC, billion year bacteria that looks the same as bacteria of today are no problem to you because??? because??? well because by-golly you have decided to believe whatever lie you must and ignore whatever truth you must so as to maintain your atheism???bornagain77
June 13, 2011
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“There is no known law of nature, no known process and no known sequence of events which can cause information to originate by itself in matter.” Werner Gitt, “In the Beginning was Information”, 1997, p. 106. (Dr. Gitt was the Director at the German Federal Institute of Physics and Technology) His challenge to scientifically falsify this statement has remained unanswered since first published.
I read his work a few years ago and I'm not surprised by this - Gitt defines information as having to have a 'mental source' so he is creating his own definition for the word information that explicitly requires it to have a non material source. If I define 'information' as something that requires a non-material (mental) source" then by definition it cannot be of material origin. What if I define 'airplane' as 'a machine incapable of flight' and then say "There is no known law of nature, no known process and no known sequence of events which can cause airplanes to fly.DrBot
June 13, 2011
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tsmith:
Fortunately we can infer the missing word from the context, and check it against the paper itself.
thats a huge assumption…with really nothing to support it. do you think Cooper himself read that article in science daily? bet he did…and he could have easily corrected it.
Well, no, it's not a huge assumption. The sentence doesn't actually make sense as it stands, so there's definitely a mistake. So candidate errors are, as you suggest, that the words "the rate of" are extraneous, or, alternatively that the word "increase" is missing. And to know which we simply need to turn to the abstract of the paper, or indeed, as I was able to do, to the paper itself, which says, unambiguously, that it was the rate of increase in fitness that declined, not fitness. And if Tom Cooper read the press release, he probably didn't notice the error. Not sure I would have done :) And it's not as though it matters, because it's clear in the papers. They found several beneficial mutations (i.e. mutations that increased fitness) but that as they accumulated, there were "diminishing returns", i.e. 5 beneficial mutations weren't 5 times as good as one. This makes sense. Either a lifebelt or a life jacket can make the difference between life or death, but once you've got one, the other doesn't make a huge deal of difference to your survival chances :) Although, interestingly, one of the mutations was neutral in the ancestral population, but beneficial in combination with the other mutations - suggesting that unlike the lifebelt/lifejacket scenario, this mutation was like the whistle you get to attract attention - not much good if you are sinking because you have neither lifebelt nor lifejacket, but a lot of use if you have at least one of those latter two :) Hope this clears things up. Cheers LizzieElizabeth Liddle
June 13, 2011
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"integrated into their chromosome can make compensatory mutations, over multiple, successive generations" Hmmm seems like backup system with original information there. Can we use that to see what original organism is like?oyer
June 13, 2011
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In response to a query from BA77, I present a paper where antibiotic resistant bacteria show no decrease in fitness over non-resistant strains. This should pass his fitness test. He presents a creationist article. It has a nice warning for him: "Creation biologists should be careful about making dogmatic statements like, “Wild-type bacteria always outcompete antibiotic resistant mutants in nature.” That made my day. LOL. Read the articles first. Context: "Our experience with competition studies reveals that demonstrating fitness costs in the laboratory is tricky and creation biologists should be careful about making dogmatic statements like, “Wild-type bacteria always outcompete antibiotic resistant mutants in nature.” Some bacteria that have an antibiotic resistance gene integrated into their chromosome can make compensatory mutations, over multiple, successive generations. These resistant bacteria compete favorably with wild-type bacteria in nature given certain environmental conditions (Criswell, 2004; 2007, personal communication)." There are many cases where antibiotic gain of resistance is without fitness cost, or that cost has been compensated for.DrREC
June 13, 2011
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Well, Science Daily is off the hook - the mistake is in the press release as well: http://www.uh.edu/news-events/stories/2011articles/June2011/060211CooperEpistasis.php However,the second abstract makes it crystal clear:
These results provide the first evidence that patterns of epistasis may differ for within- and between-gene interactions during adaptation and that diminishing returns epistasis contributes to the consistent observation of decelerating fitness gains during adaptation.
So it is that the rate of fitness increase that is declining, not fitness itself. It reaches a ceiling, in other words. From the body of the paper (to which I am fortunate enough to have access):
A conspicuous feature of the mean-fitness trajectory for this population—and indeed for most experimental populations evolving in a constant environment—is that the rate of adaptation declined over time. Mechanisms that may explain this deceleration include reductions in the number and effect-size of beneficial mutations as a population becomes better adapted to its environment.
Elizabeth Liddle
June 13, 2011
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Moreover, DrREC and Elizabeth, please do tell (weave a tale) of this 'anomaly': Static evolution: is pond scum the same now as billions of years ago? Excerpt: But what intrigues (paleo-biologist) J. William Schopf most is lack of change. Schopf was struck 30 years ago by the apparent similarities between some 1-billion-year-old fossils of blue-green bacteria and their modern microbial microbial. "They surprisingly looked exactly like modern species," Schopf recalls. Now, after comparing data from throughout the world, Schopf and others have concluded that modern pond scum differs little from the ancient blue-greens. "This similarity in morphology is widespread among fossils of [varying] times," says Schopf. As evidence, he cites the 3,000 such fossils found; http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Static+evolution%3A+is+pond+scum+the+same+now+as+billions+of+years+ago%3F-a014909330 Now DrREC and Elizabeth, that is pretty bad in itself for neo-Darwinism, but check this out: The Paradox of the "Ancient" (250 million year old) Bacterium Which Contains "Modern" Protein-Coding Genes: “Almost without exception, bacteria isolated from ancient material have proven to closely resemble modern bacteria at both morphological and molecular levels.” Heather Maughan*, C. William Birky Jr., Wayne L. Nicholson, William D. Rosenzweig§ and Russell H. Vreeland ; http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/19/9/1637 These following studies, by Dr. Cano on ancient bacteria, preceded Dr. Vreeland's work: “Raul J. Cano and Monica K. Borucki discovered the bacteria preserved within the abdomens of insects encased in pieces of amber. In the last 4 years, they have revived more than 1,000 types of bacteria and microorganisms — some dating back as far as 135 million years ago, during the age of the dinosaurs.,,, In October 2000, another research group used many of the techniques developed by Cano’s lab to revive 250-million-year-old bacteria from spores trapped in salt crystals. With this additional evidence, it now seems that the “impossible” is true.” http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=281961 In reply to a personal e-mail from myself, Dr. Cano commented on the 'Fitness Test' I had asked him about: Dr. Cano stated: "We performed such a test, a long time ago, using a panel of substrates (the old gram positive biolog panel) on B. sphaericus. From the results we surmised that the putative "ancient" B. sphaericus isolate was capable of utilizing a broader scope of substrates. Additionally, we looked at the fatty acid profile and here, again, the profiles were similar but more diverse in the amber isolate.": Fitness test which compared ancient bacteria to its modern day descendants, RJ Cano and MK Borucki Thus, the most solid evidence available for the most ancient DNA scientists are able to find does not support evolution happening on the molecular level of bacteria. In fact, according to the fitness test of Dr. Cano, the change witnessed in bacteria conforms to the exact opposite, Genetic Entropy; a loss of functional information/complexity, since fewer substrates and fatty acids are utilized by the modern strains. Considering the intricate level of protein machinery it takes to utilize individual molecules within a substrate, we are talking an impressive loss of protein complexity, and thus loss of functional information, from the ancient amber sealed bacteria. Here is a revisit to the video of the 'Fitness Test' that evolutionary processes have NEVER passed as for a demonstration of the generation of functional complexity/information above what was already present in a parent species bacteria: Is Antibiotic Resistance evidence for evolution? - 'Fitness Test' - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3995248 According to prevailing evolutionary dogma, there 'HAS' to be 'major genetic drift' to the DNA of modern bacteria from 250 million years ago, even though the morphology (shape) of the bacteria can be expected to remain exactly the same. In spite of their preconceived materialistic bias, scientists find there is no significant genetic drift from the ancient DNA. In fact recent research, with bacteria which are alive right now, has also severely weakened the 'genetic drift' argument of evolutionists: The consequences of genetic drift for bacterial genome complexity - Howard Ochman - 2009 Excerpt: The increased availability of sequenced bacterial genomes allows application of an alternative estimator of drift, the genome-wide ratio of replacement to silent substitutions in protein-coding sequences. This ratio, which reflects the action of purifying selection across the entire genome, shows a strong inverse relationship with genome size, indicating that drift promotes genome reduction in bacteria. http://genome.cshlp.org/content/early/2009/06/05/gr.091785.109 I find it interesting that the materialistic theory of evolution expects there to be a significant amount of genetic drift from the DNA of ancient bacteria to its modern descendants, while the morphology can be allowed to remain exactly the same with its descendants. Alas for the materialist once again, the hard evidence of ancient DNA has fell in line with the anthropic hypothesis. Many times a materialist will offer what he considers conclusive proof for evolution by showing bacteria that have become resistant to a certain antibiotic such as penicillin. Yet upon close inspection, once again this 'conclusive proof' dissolves away. All observed instances of 'beneficial' adaptations of bacteria to new antibiotics have been shown to be the result of degradation of preexisting molecular abilities: List Of Degraded Molecular Abilities Of Antibiotic Resistant Bacteria: http://www.trueorigin.org/bacteria01.asp The following is a reflection on the true implications of the 'evolution' of bacteria becoming resistant to multiple antibiotics that has so many people concerned as to their danger: Superbugs not super after all Excerpt: It is precisely because the mutations which give rise to resistance are in some form or another defects, that so-called supergerms are not really ‘super’ at all—they are actually rather ‘wimpy’ compared to their close cousins. http://creation.com/superbugs-not-super-after-all MRSA - Supergerms Do they prove evolution? In places that are exposed to dirt from the street—such as your house—the supergerms are kept in their place not by powerful drugs and poisons but by competition with other germs. And their resistance genes are diluted by genes of the susceptible or non-resistant germs of the same species rather than being concentrated by selective breeding. That is why most non-hospital infections respond readily to antibiotics—the drug kills most of the germs, the body takes care of the rest. If it were not so, the so called supergerms would escape from hospitals and sweep the world. Are You Too Clean? - New Studies Suggest Getting A Little Dirty May Be Just What The Doctor Ordered - December 2010 http://www.creationsafaris.com/crev201012.htm#20101208a For materialists to conclusively prove evolution they would have to violate the principle of Genetic Entropy by clearly demonstrating a gain of functional information bits (Fits) over the parent species (Abel - Null-Hypothesis) in the fitness test which I've listed previously. Materialists have not done so, nor will they ever. The interrelated complexity for the integrated whole of a life-form simply will not allow the generation of complex functional information above the parent species to happen in its genome by chance alone. (Sanford, Genetic Entropy 2005) This following site highlights the problem that the integrated complexity of a genome presents for Neo-Darwinism mechanism of random mutation: Poly-Functional Complexity equals Poly-Constrained Complexity http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYmaSrBPNEmGZGM4ejY3d3pfMjdoZmd2emZncQ This following quote reiterates the principle that material processes cannot generate functional information: “There is no known law of nature, no known process and no known sequence of events which can cause information to originate by itself in matter.” Werner Gitt, “In the Beginning was Information”, 1997, p. 106. (Dr. Gitt was the Director at the German Federal Institute of Physics and Technology) His challenge to scientifically falsify this statement has remained unanswered since first published.bornagain77
June 13, 2011
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I also see other paradox tsmith http://www.benthamscience.com/open/toevolj/articles/V005/1TOEVOLJ.pdfoyer
June 13, 2011
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Is that what fitness is? So if I am bedridden with illness am I more fit in an environment with a lot of car accidents?oyer
June 13, 2011
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Fortunately we can infer the missing word from the context, and check it against the paper itself.
thats a huge assumption...with really nothing to support it. do you think Cooper himself read that article in science daily? bet he did...and he could have easily corrected it.tsmith
June 13, 2011
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This is getting silly. The context of the science daily article-referring to beneficial mutations and fitness increases over ancestral populations should be enough to indicate your interpretation is flawed
yes you are being silly...this is NOT *my interpretation* this is a quote from COPPER HIMSELF....how hard is this?tsmith
June 13, 2011
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DrREC,, I find it extremely strange that you are so enamored to make a case that this is proof of neo-Darwinian evolution, when clearly all evidence, that is all evidence that is not tortured by your severe prejudice, points to deterioration as well as to limits of the e-coli genome!!! It is only by severe disregard of reason that you can maintain any of this evidence supports your position. ,,,, But my question is of a more personal nature DrREC, exactly what would you lose if you accepted the truth that neo-Darwinism was false??? Would finding that life actually has a purpose be such a terrible thing to find out to be true??? Why do you fight so hard against such a wonderful truth???bornagain77
June 13, 2011
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tsmith: Cooper could well have said what is reported, or it could have been mistranscribed. Either way, it doesn't actually make sense. "Fitness" is a scalar quantity, it doesn't have a "rate". As reported, it's the equivalent of saying "the rate of height declined". So there must be a missing word. Somebody made an error, possibly Cooper. It happens, especially in oral interviews. But as it stands it doesn't actually mean anything at all. It has a deleterious mutation! Fortunately we can infer the missing word from the context, and check it against the paper itself.Elizabeth Liddle
June 13, 2011
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and then we have Nachman's U paradox...
Using conservative calculations of the proportion of the genome subject to purifying selection, we estimate that the genomic deleterious mutation rate (U) is at least 3. This high rate is difficult to reconcile with multiplicative fitness effects of individual mutations and suggests that synergistic epistasis among harmful mutations may be common.
http://www.genetics.org/content/156/1/297.full which sanford refers to.
To evolve the population, one needs to add new mutations and either fix some mutations and remove (purify away) others. Haldane’s dilemma deals with the difficulty of fixation. Nachman U-Paradox problem deals with the difficulty of purification. Even if the mutations were neutral, Nachman’s paper still poses the problem of how to purify away neutral mutations such that the genomes between each member of the species remains relatively similar (humans are about 99.5% similar to each other).
https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/other-problems-for-human-evolution-nachmans-u-paradox/tsmith
June 13, 2011
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tsmith, This is getting silly. The context of the science daily article-referring to beneficial mutations and fitness increases over ancestral populations should be enough to indicate your interpretation is flawed. You've also been presented with direct quotes of the science paper by the same author. Persisting in hanging on to your interpretation of this quote, which itself doesn't particularly make sense, is silly.DrREC
June 13, 2011
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