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Recent papers confirm that genetic entropy decreases fitness

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entropy illustrated

Over at Creation-Evolution Headlines, Dave Coppedge reports that two recent journal article’s have confirmed Cornell’s John Sanford’s “genetic entropy”: An accumulation of mutations always decreases fitness (contrary to neo-Darwinists’ hopes):

For mutations under epistasis to produce innovation, there must be a way for them to work together (synergistic epistasis). This is often assumed but has not been observed. Most experiments have shown beneficial mutations working against each other (antagonistic epistasis; see 12/14/2006), or causing even less fitness than if they acted alone (decompensatory epistasis; see 10/19/2004). In a new paper in Science,3 Khan et al, working with Richard Lenski [Michigan State], leader of the longest-running experiment on evolution of E. coli, found a law of diminishing returns with beneficial mutations due to negative epistasis.

Diminishing returns?

Like this, for example?: An increased number of spelling errors in a letter retyped in series by a number of different people does not add up to a new, better letter over time?

Coppedge also notes the way the science media handled the news, for example:

“The more mutations the researchers added, the more they interfered with each other,” was one of the “surprising” results.

Surprising to whom? Not to Dembski and other members of the No Free Lunch club.

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Comments
mein kampf...sorry.... BA77: go for the money...looks fade....tsmith
June 13, 2011
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oh and lets not forget the entire title of Darwin's book... On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life. struggle...where have I heard that word used in the title of a book....let me think.....oh yeah....my struggle...mein kempf....tsmith
June 13, 2011
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tsmith LOL!!! Elizabeth: But I still disagree; But not so quick Elizabeth, even if you are ugly and poor, (I'm not near as picky, or handsome, as tsmith :) ,, let's look to where we agree, you said: ‘It’s more like there being a ceiling beyond which you can’t go, no matter how much you continue to gild the lily.’ ,,, I'm saying Elizabeth, we can this work, give me a ballpark ceiling!!!bornagain77
June 13, 2011
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Darwin’s Victorian political opinions are irrelevant to the science of evolution.
Darwin's views are driven by his theory of evolution...just like Waton's views are....
Watson is credited with discovering the double helix along with Maurice Wilkins and Francis Crick in 1962. In the newspaper interview, he said there was no reason to think that races which had grown up in separate geographical locations should have evolved identically. He went on to say that although he hoped everyone was equal, “people who have to deal with black employees find this not true”.
even Gould admitted the truth, why can't you?
"Biological arguments for racism may have been common before 1859, but they increased by orders of magnitude following the acceptance of evolutionary theory." Stephen Jay Gould, Stephen Jay Gould, Ontogeny and Phylogeny (Cambridge, Mass: Harvard University Press, 1977), p. 127.
As for the email, I am not going to gain any money from making up email replies. I wouldn’t be surprised if Dr Cooper doesn’t reply to me, but you are free to email him yourself. It’s irrelevant though really – what matters is what the paper says.
and why would anyone believe what you report that he says? please the quote stands...you just can't handle the truth. OBVIOUSLY.tsmith
June 13, 2011
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Darwin's Victorian political opinions are irrelevant to the science of evolution. Einstein was a pacifist, but that doesn't make the theory of relativity more friendly. Scientific theories are attempts to explain facts about the world. If I have a theory that my cat knocked over my drink to explain the fact that my tea is on the floor, it really doesn't matter what I think of cats. Either it's true that the cat knocked over my drink or it isn't. As for the email, I am not going to gain any money from making up email replies. I wouldn't be surprised if Dr Cooper doesn't reply to me, but you are free to email him yourself. It's irrelevant though really - what matters is what the paper says.Driver
June 13, 2011
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Elizabeth...I was the first one to show concern...especially if you are beautiful and rich... if not, nevermind...LOLtsmith
June 13, 2011
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Ah, ba77 I do find your concern touching, seriously :) Bless you. But I still disagree :)Elizabeth Liddle
June 13, 2011
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Well, we got sidetracked about what the paper was actually reporting, but now I think (I hope!) that is clear, yes, ba77, you are right, negative epistasis of beneficial mutations is a potential "drag" on adaptation, as the authors make clear (although it is mutation-pair specific - in one case, epistasis was positive). However, it works the other way as well - negative epistasis of deleterious mutations is one of the reason "genetic entropy" isn't as disastrous as simple calculations would suggest.Elizabeth Liddle
June 13, 2011
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Elizabeth this quote gives me hope for you yet; 'It’s more like there being a ceiling beyond which you can’t go, no matter how much you continue to gild the lily.' :) In fact, you can't go up past the 'ceiling' of fitness already present in parent strain!,,, and As DrREC pointed out previously, the best Darwinists have done so far is demonstrate 'comparable fitness' to parent strain after 'several rounds' of compensatory mutations (Though I hold sensitivity can be tweaked to show decline even in that instance):bornagain77
June 13, 2011
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, but if he replies to my email then we’ll know what he meant for sure.
and OF COURSE we will rely upon the word of an anonymous internet poster to tell us what the good dr. said... hey I have a large some of money that needs to be moved out of africa, can you help me?tsmith
June 13, 2011
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Of course, what really matters is the scientific paper, not his quote, but if he replies to my email then we’ll know what he meant for sure.
oh of course...we can't rely on our lying eyes now can we? just keep repeating 'it evolved' 'it evolved' 'it evolved'
It’s very post-modern to posit that scientific theories present political opinions.
oh I knew you'd say something so 'chic' tell ya what...why don't you list for me the 'lower races' your savior refers to:
"The more civilized so-called Caucasian races have beaten the Turkish hollow in the struggle for existence. Looking to the world at no very distant date, what an endless number of the lower races will have been eliminated by the higher civilised races throughout the world." (Darwin, Charles R. [English naturalist and founder of the modern theory of evolution], "The Life of Charles Darwin", [1902], Senate: London, 1995, reprint, p.64).
now go ahead and accuse of quote mining...I can always use a few laughs...tsmith
June 13, 2011
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Liz, I recommend retracting this: "It’s more like there being a ceiling beyond which you can’t go, no matter how much you continue to gild the lily." Or you will end up being interviewed by Ben Stein shortly.junkdnaforlife
June 13, 2011
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Well let's see,,, New Research on Epistatic Interactions Shows "Overwhelmingly Negative" Fitness Costs and Limits to Evolution Excerpt: The research paper published out of the Cooper lab (with Richard Lenski as a co-author), by Khan et al., is titled "Negative Epistasis Between Beneficial Mutations in an Evolving Bacterial Population." It found that "Epistasis depended on the effects of the combined mutations--the larger the expected benefit, the more negative the epistatic effect. Epistasis thus tended to produce diminishing returns with genotype fitness, although interactions involving one particular mutation had the opposite effect. These data support models in which negative epistasis contributes to declining rates of adaptation over time." The other paper from the Marx lab, by Chou et al., is titled "Diminishing Returns Epistasis Among Beneficial Mutations Decelerates Adaptation." The article's abstract likewise explains that: "patterns of epistasis may differ for within- and between-gene interactions during adaptation and that diminishing returns epistasis contributes to the consistent observation of decelerating fitness gains during adaptation." The title of a summary piece in Science tells the whole story: "In Evolution, the Sum Is Less than Its Parts." It notes that these studies encountered "antagonistic epistasis," where negative effects arise from epistatic interactions: Both studies found a predominance of antagonistic epistasis, which impeded the rate of ongoing adaptation relative to a null model of independent mutational effects. In essence, these studies found that there is a fitness cost to becoming more fit. As mutations increase, bacteria faced barriers to the amount they could continue to evolve. If this kind of evidence doesn't run counter to claims that neo-Darwinian evolution can evolve fundamentally new types of organisms and produce the astonishing diversity we observe in life, what does? http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/06/new_research_on_epistatic_inte047151.html Thus, Elizabeth and DrREC, this inability of 'beneficial mutations' to add to one another, indeed their propensity to severely interfere with each other, supports your atheistic delusions of neo-Darwinism how??? Whereas, ID readily expects this limit to 'evolvability' with poly-functional constraint!! DNA – Evolution Vs. Polyfuctionality – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4614519bornagain77
June 13, 2011
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Of course, what really matters is the scientific paper, not his quote, but if he replies to my email then we'll know what he meant for sure.
the racist eugenicist theory of evolution
It's very post-modern to posit that scientific theories present political opinions.Driver
June 13, 2011
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It’s more like there being a ceiling beyond which you can’t go, no matter how much you continue to gild the lily.
bingo. thats the crux of the debate...things only 'evolve' so far. then they hit the wall. I hope you're not professionally employed in the field of biology....that quote may cost you your job....tsmith
June 13, 2011
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BTW, just a technicality: A "positive" interaction means that one factor enhances the other. A "negative" interaction" means that one factor tends to cancel out the effect of the other. An "overwhelmingly negative interaction" doesn't mean that the effect on fitness was negative, it means that the interaction between the two meant they tended to cancel each other out, meaning that both isn't much better, if at all, than only one. It could mean that both is worse than one (for instance two drugs that help you could interact negatively if used together and make you iller), but the paper says not. And you can't extrapolate that to predict that even more will be worse than one. It's more like there being a ceiling beyond which you can't go, no matter how much you continue to gild the lily.Elizabeth Liddle
June 13, 2011
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I also asked him if his quote supported the theory of genetic entropy.
oh and the quote obviously does....but don't worry, you won't let anything get in the way of your faith in the racist eugenicist theory of evolution....tsmith
June 13, 2011
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I emailed him to let him know that his paper was being used to support the theory of genetic entropy. I thought he might be amused. I also asked him if his quote supported the theory of genetic entropy.
oh good...did you remind him of the consequences to his career if he dares goes against the high priests of darwinism?tsmith
June 13, 2011
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Well, tsmith, either the author is wrong in the press release (I wouldn’t assume lying), or wrong in the paper (again, I wouldn’t assume lying). He can’t be right in both.
I think he can..he only presents his findings in the paper...and then his quote is the logical result of those findings... he's not lying..he's not misquoted...he's just taking the results to their logical conclusion. you are SO threatened by that statement you just have to dismiss it. which indicates that your belief in evolution has crossed the line to faith.
it’s fair one, as this is always a problem in discussing evolutionary theory, because it does sound tautological. It isn’t though, it’s just so simple that it sounds that way. Darwin’s theory can be summed up by something like:
usually things sound or appear the way they really are. the whole 'survival of the fittest' is a tautology. your posts are proving that evolution is a faith.
When things replicate with variance, things that replicate better will be replicated more often.
yeah so...a creationist would say the same thing. the only difference is evolutionists think evolution can create new forms and functions...did you notice with this experiment with all the thousands of generations...and lenski's experiment with his 20,000 or so generations...and its still a bacteria? or a recent study about fruit flies...with 600 generations...
Despite decades of sustained selection in relatively small, sexually reproducing laboratory populations, selection did not lead to the fixation of newly arising unconditionally advantageous alleles.
Burke, Dunham et al, “Genome-wide analysis of a long-term evolution experiment with Drosophila,” Nature 467, 587-590 (30 September 2010); doi:10.1038/nature09352.tsmith
June 13, 2011
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I wasn’t talking to you with that..but replying to the snotty post by driver.
OK, no problem :)Elizabeth Liddle
June 13, 2011
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I emailed him to let him know that his paper was being used to support the theory of genetic entropy. I thought he might be amused. I also asked him if his quote supported the theory of genetic entropy.Driver
June 13, 2011
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Thanks for the explanation of the paper, Elizabeth.Driver
June 13, 2011
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Well, tsmith, either the author is wrong in the press release (I wouldn't assume lying), or wrong in the paper (again, I wouldn't assume lying). He can't be right in both. So I'm assuming he's right in the paper, seeing as he has several coauthors to check, and actually makes logical sense, which he doesn't in the press release. As for your point about tautology - it's fair one, as this is always a problem in discussing evolutionary theory, because it does sound tautological. It isn't though, it's just so simple that it sounds that way. Darwin's theory can be summed up by something like: When things replicate with variance, things that replicate better will be replicated more often. It's so obviously true, it's almost not worth saying! But that's really all it is. And it does have powerful implications. So "fitter" simply means "replicates better" - but it's not a static quantity. It depends on the environment. A trait that can make you fitter (breed better) in a cold climate (fur, for instance) can make you breed worse if the climate warms up. But keeping the environment constant, as Lenski's team did, mutations that promote breeding will result in faster breeding, and this can be measured. And that's all that "fitness" means in a Darwinian sense, unfortunately. We may enjoy traits that enhance the kick we get out of life, but unless they also improve our chances of passing those traits to our offspring, they don't make us "fitter" in an evolutionary sense. And won't therefore be preferentially passed on.Elizabeth Liddle
June 13, 2011
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If he’s not too busy to reply, that’s true, since I just emailed him
thats nice...I doubt he cares about some people arguing on a message board....did you ask him if he was quoted correctly? if not, what did you email him about?tsmith
June 13, 2011
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thousands of generations such that its fitness had increased by approximately 35 percent over its ancestor.”
35 percent...in thousands of generations...back to my previous observation which has been studiously ignored by darwinists...
the question still stands…ever hear of Haldane’s dilemma? It takes a great many mutations to produce sight, for example, (although no one has any clue how many or what mutations produced sight) and with the rarity of beneficial mutations to begin with, coupled with the negative epistatic effect, how does anything evolve?
tsmith
June 13, 2011
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It’s not that I “know the secret code” tsmith, it’s because I read the abstracts (which are open access) and also one of the papers (which unfortunately isn’t).
I wasn't talking to you with that..but replying to the snotty post by driver.tsmith
June 13, 2011
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here's the quote again.. It was found that the beneficial mutations allowing the bacteria to increase in fitness didn't have a constant effect. The effect of their interactions depended on the presence of other mutations, which turned out to be overwhelmingly negative. "These results point us toward expecting to see the rate of a population's fitness declining over time even with the continual addition of new beneficial mutations," he said. "As we sometimes see in sports, a group of individual stars doesn't necessarily make a great team."tsmith
June 13, 2011
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Why don't you tell me
"Cooper and his team focused on a bacterial population that had been evolved for thousands of generations such that its fitness had increased by approximately 35 percent over its ancestor."
only you know the secret code and can decipher what he really said
If he's not too busy to reply, that's true, since I just emailed him. :-)Driver
June 13, 2011
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It's not that I "know the secret code" tsmith, it's because I read the abstracts (which are open access) and also one of the papers (which unfortunately isn't). driver:
So what did the article say about the fitness of the bacterial population?
There are two sets of populations: a set of five, bred from a single ancestral population, members of which were frozen IIRC for later use. In each of those five, a different beneficial mutation appeared. Then, the authors transferred each of those five mutations, in all combinations, into clones of the frozen ancestral population, giving them a second set of 32 populations, each with a different combination of the five mutations. And they compared the fitness of those 32 populations. All were fitter than the ancestral population (bred better) but those with all five mutations were not five times fitter than those with only one.Elizabeth Liddle
June 13, 2011
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And empirically, it is measured by the change in frequency of the allele in question. If the frequency increases, then the allele is deemed beneficial; if it decreases, then it is deemed “deleterious”
so in other words its a tautology...it its fit it survives...how do we know its fit? it survives.
Well, no, that is not what the paper reports.
now you're telling me the author is lying...either in the paper, or in the press release or the science daily article.... please.
I’m summarising – there are more details about each mutation. But they do not report “genetic meltdown” – indeed the populations with all five mutations were fitter than the populations without any, just not hugely better than those with three or four
so why not with 8 or 10, the rate would tip from being beneficial to harmful? that is what the author is saying in that quote.tsmith
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