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Subjectivists Need to Check Their Moral Privilege

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Many of our interlocutors here often complain about the lengthy comments KF often posts which frame the necessity of a cohesive and coherent worldview when it comes to moral views and arguments. With others, their arguments often hinge around the insistence that either morals simply are not objective in nature, or that there is no way to tell. Even when the logic shows how subjective morality fails to provide a sound basis for behavior or argument, and fails to differentiate any moral view from another, their mantra seems to be a big “so what?”

IOW, so what if their worldview is rationally inconsistent with their behavior? So what if ultimately subjective morality endorses any and all behavior as moral equivalents? That’s not how most people actually behave, they counter, so worrying about worse-case scenarios derived from subjective morality is a groundless concern, especially since believing in objective morality doesn’t appear to make people behave better. Most people, they argue, have similar enough conscience and empathy and other feelings so that if they just adhere to those, we can have a generally-agreed upon and workable moral system without worrying about whether or not it is objectively true.

One problem with this line of thought – especially for those who grew up in western countries – is that it fails to recognize how a “similar-enough” set of personal feelings about others in society has developed within the framework of a virtually universal belief in certain moral absolutes (inviolable rights). Moral relativists take for granted the impact of hundreds of years of post-Enlightement Christian moral objectivism upon our culture and society when they appeal to feelings baked into culture from hundreds of years of enlightened Christianity as their basis of morality.

IOW, their moral views and feelings (even those that superficially appear to contradict some formal Christian “sins”) are the very product of a culture based on and inextricably steeped in post-enlightenment Christian moral objectivism. Their moral relativism is a privileged position sitting atop, relying upon and operating through the very thing it says does not exist.

Even when the Western moral relativist mistakenly argues for an end to discrimination against transgenders, they are taking for granted that “discrimination” against a minority is “a bad thing” that “most people” would automatically “feel bad” about. They are using an Christian Enlightenment-generated set of moral absolutes entrenched in the citizenry to make an emotional case against what they mistakenly frame as “discrimination”, when anti-discrimination as a good thing itself is not something a relativist would probably have access to use outside of Western Christian Enlightenment. Just look around the world to find that out.

Yeah, it’s real easy to point at empathy and feelings when you can rely on most people around you to share similar feelings. Looking outside of the enlightened, western-civilization box, this isn’t something we find to be a universally-shared moral feeling, even if the precept of moral equality is one you can find from sages of all times and from all locations around the world. Around the world you have entire cultures that have no problem at all seeing women and children as inferior objects to be used and abused, seeing other tribes and cultures as something to be exterminated, beheading gays and mutilating people for small legal infractions. They have zero expectation of any moral equality or rights.

The Western objective-morality idea of an objective, god-given inviolable right to liberty and self-determination set the table for today’s western, post-modern moral relativists; how convenient for them when they offer up a big fat “so what” in arguments showing the logical soundness of objective morality and the principles that came from the Enlightenment. They don’t have to account for their moral perspective and tender sensibilities as long as they ignore where they are drawing them from and what has protected their feelings from the brutality of other social mores in other other places in the world.

Moral subjectivists need to check their moral privilege. If they’re going to dismiss the enlightened Christian natural law objective morality basis, they have no right to take for granted the “feelings” and “conscience” and “empathy” it has generated for them to rely on in their arguments supporting moral relativism.  Every time they claim someone has a right or that they should have some liberty, they are intellectually freeloading on hundreds of years of moral objectivism and enlightened Christian views permeating the society they grew up in.

Comments
WJM,
None of your statement addresses any of the rather extensive posts KF (or anyone else) has provided in threads on this cite recently or OP FYI-FTR posts on worldview foundations concerning credible true belief, nor provides any proposed alternative towards defining and establishing credible beliefs about anything, much less morality. Your post does absolutely nothing other than present strings of phrases intended to make it sound as if disagreement with the arguments here are reasonable while not actually making any such case. Saying that other reasonable people disagree, or saying that the issue is a difficult one, doesn’t rebut anything said so far no does it propose any alternative. So, it’s nothing but handwaving.
You will notice I was addressing his assertions about infinite regresses specifically, as you can see in post #443. I don't have to respond to every claim he has made about credible true belief &etc. Do you find the statement "Infinite , endless regress? Futile and fruitless, infeasible for the finite and fallible" convincing? Edit: You keep referring to "rebuttals", but again, what is there to rebut in the above sentence? It appears to be a mere assertion to me. No support for the impossibility of infinite regress.daveS
June 1, 2016
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Zeroseven, it's even worse than that. WJM claims that human life, regardless of the stage of development, is a fundamental right (objective moral value?) yet is willing to end it if it puts the mother's life at serious risk. So, even he is agreeing that not all "humans" have equal rights.clown fish
June 1, 2016
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Why do these discussions always end up about abortion? I keep making this point and no one ever responds. None of you really think that abortion is the murder of human beings. If you did, you could not live in a society that, to use StephenB's words, slices up and scalds babies to death by the millions. It's way worse than Nazi Germany, Stalin's Russia and Pol Pot combined. But you limit your involvement to making comments on a blog. I'm sorry, but it doesn't ring true. If I believed what you believed I would be in the resistance overthrowing the government. Or at the least would leave.zeroseven
June 1, 2016
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Once again: I challenge CF and zeroseven to explain, from logically consistent moral subjectivism, how any of their moral views do not depend entirely upon personal preference, and how that principle cannot be used to make anything moral - even cruelty. Then, explain how in a world where anything and everything can be "moral" as long as the individual claims it to be for themselves, why one should even bother using the term "morality"? What value can one possibly add to a choice by calling it a "moral" choice?William J Murray
June 1, 2016
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Clown Fish said:
I have no moral problem with abortion up until the point at which the brain has sufficiently developed that it counsciously perceives pain.
Then said:
We agree. It [right to life] is the most fundamental of subjective rights.
If you hold that the right to life is the most fundamental of rights, why is it okay to kill the unborn as long as they do not yet feel pain?William J Murray
June 1, 2016
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CF, again you have made false assertions. First, as has been repeatedly summarised and linked, evolutionary materialism is both incoherent and amoral; with similarly damaging implications for fellow traveller schemes. In addition, the implication of deeming the testimony of conscience that we are under binding obligation of ought a delusion is that grand delusion pervades our inner mental life as conscience addresses all aspects of oughtness, truth, coherence etc. Once grand delusion is injected, the first tier Plato's cave shadow show is succeeded by the same challenge on that perception [that level 1 is dubious], then the third etc levels are similarly tainted leading to absurd infinite regress. This too has been repeatedly pointed out or linked. On both these points, the radical relativism, subjectivism and nominalism you and others of your ilk have advocated is readily seen to be manifestly absurd. KF PS: Self-referential incoherence, self refutation or self falsification are important issues in many contexts of discussion. If some proposition X implies another, ~X, it refutes itself. When an assertion Y by an agent A includes A in the class of reference, it is then doubly important to check that Y does not disqualify A from doing such. Such self undermining is pointless. And it is common that evolutionary materialist schemes undermine the responsibility and rationality of the advocates of such. A classic case is this warning by Haldane:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” ["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. ]
kairosfocus
June 1, 2016
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DaveS said:
Of course not. However, difficult philosophical problems exist.
None of your statement addresses any of the rather extensive posts KF (or anyone else) has provided in threads on this cite recently or OP FYI-FTR posts on worldview foundations concerning credible true belief, nor provides any proposed alternative towards defining and establishing credible beliefs about anything, much less morality. Your post does absolutely nothing other than present strings of phrases intended to make it sound as if disagreement with the arguments here are reasonable while not actually making any such case. Saying that other reasonable people disagree, or saying that the issue is a difficult one, doesn't rebut anything said so far no does it propose any alternative. So, it's nothing but handwaving.William J Murray
June 1, 2016
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Vivid: You were asking me a question about what I would do as a lawyer. As a lawyer I am ethically and legally required to act in the best interests of my client, not my own. So, no, my own position has nothing to do with your hypothetical. If you engage a lawyer, I hope you engage one that does not allow their own moral viewpoints to interfere in the job they do for you.zeroseven
June 1, 2016
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Clown Thanks I did. Do Canadiens have a similar holiday? Vividvividbleau
June 1, 2016
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Zero I don't know what to say, that you actually would prefer a court that embraces a Hitlerian worldview if they were African Americans is beyond belief.Actually I am stunned, Shows the lengths one will go to defend ones position especially since Christians were at the forefront of the abolitionist movement. Vividvividbleau
June 1, 2016
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Vividbleu: "Although I would not be the most qualified to demonstrate this, but if your position was shown to be self referentialy incoherent would that matter to you?" If it can be done using the English language without phrases like "self-evident", "patent", "warrant", "absurd" and other pompous words, yes. Btw, I hope you had a pleasant Memorial Day weekend.clown fish
June 1, 2016
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I do have a few clients demanding my assistance this morning but if I get a chance I will respond to WJM's challenge. Although my immediate response is, I don't see how its any different for him. As I note above, there is no statute book to refer to to check that your particular moral position (call it a "preference" if you want - that's just a word, and I am not afraid of words) is the objectively correct one.zeroseven
June 1, 2016
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Phinehas @450: Good idea. Lets make it Hokey Pokey against all the rest though. (Don't know how to do hyper links but look up Wikipedia for that) Vivid, yes I am a lawyer. No logic courses featured in my education at law school. Although perhaps it is implicitly trained into us. But the law does not reduce ideas to being either one thing or the other. It's about shades of meaning. Taking your example of the trial, I would of course choose the forum where the law was most likely to give my client a successful outcome. And that would entirely depend on the client probably. I imagine if my client was a Jew, I would be better off in an American court, and if they were African American I would be better off in the German court. Because the thing is I can pick up the statute books in both jurisdictions and find out what the law is. That's my whole point. There is no way of doing that with the moral code.zeroseven
June 1, 2016
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Clown " like self-referentially incoherent." Although I would not be the most qualified to demonstrate this, but if your position was shown to be self referentialy incoherent would that matter to you? I would also hope you and zero will step up to WJMs challenge in 458. Thanks Vividvividbleau
June 1, 2016
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Phinehas: "Is the ability to consciously perceive pain relevant to your establishing a cutoff time after which abortions should not be allowed?" Yes. "If so, then how? And why is it only relevant for some humans and not others?" I linked a paper above about neurological development in developing fetuses that explains some of this. It is only relevant for developing fetuses because once the brain becomes further developed there are other cognitive capabilities that become developed. At the risk of appearing crass, they are becoming more "human". "If not, then why did you bring it up in the first place? And how is 26 weeks any less arbitrary than any other point in a human’s life?" 26 weeks isn't arbitrary. It is based on known neurological development of fetuses. But I also mentioned that I would include a safety factor to account for the natural variations in the rates of brain development.clown fish
June 1, 2016
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cf:
Prior to 26 weeks development, it is not possible for a fetus to consciously perceive pain because the brain has not sufficiently developed. The fact that there are a rare few that never develop the ability to consciously feel pain is irrelevant. I was talking about establishing a cutoff time after which abortions should not be allowed except under serious risk to the woman.
Is the ability to consciously perceive pain relevant to your establishing a cutoff time after which abortions should not be allowed? If so, then how? And why is it only relevant for some humans and not others? If not, then why did you bring it up in the first place? And how is 26 weeks any less arbitrary than any other point in a human's life? One suspects the only thing that is really relevant to your morality is whether or not you feel something is wrong, and the rest is merely ad hoc justification. So why not cast aside the hypocrisy and pretension and just say that you favor allowing some abortions simply because you feel like it, and your feelings and your morality are indistinguishable?Phinehas
June 1, 2016
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KF, I don't want to spend too much time in this meta-topic, so I'll leave it there. OT: You will appreciate this article:
In a series of papers posted online in recent weeks, mathematicians have solved a problem about the pattern-matching card game Set that predates the game itself. The solution, whose simplicity has stunned mathematicians, is already leading to advances in other combinatorics problems.
daveS
June 1, 2016
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Kairosfocus: "CF, simply and blatantly false."Subjectivism, relativism and nominalism are self-referentially incoherent and in fact pivot on the denial of objectivity of morality. You keep saying this. But endless repetition of the same talking points do not make them real. Again, I clip from 468 above.
After the thousands of words that you have written, you have still failed to demonstrate how what you refer to as objective morality is in any way distinguishable from subjective morality. Waving this off as free will or differing views on moral values does not solve the problem.
Maybe if I re-phrase it, you will better understand my point. If all of recorded human experience shows that "objective" moral values are being interpreted in so many varied and mutually incompatible ways, how is this distinguishable from what we would expect if moral values were subjective? Please try to answer without resorting to Is/OUGHT nonsense and phrases like self-referentially incoherent. Plain English would be appreciated. If objective morality is so self-evident, this should be easy to explain.clown fish
June 1, 2016
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CF, simply and blatantly false. Subjectivism, relativism and nominalism are self-referentially incoherent and in fact pivot on the denial of objectivity of morality. That incoherence on attempted denial therefore instantly indicates that objective morality exists. As has been shown in more than sufficient detail, long since. KFkairosfocus
June 1, 2016
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DS, I suggest that it would be fairer to say that I have often pointed out the movements that particular lines/tactics of argument and activism enable; where cultural marxism is a major stream of movements in our day, indeed just today at 431 above I have had to speak to a significant case in point on sobering issues of lawfare and agendas in constitutional law. In so doing, I have pointed out that specific rhetorical acts in discussions have been of the character of such enabling or being caught up. In some cases, there are real differences of substantial view, as with say the import of endlessness of succession of counting numbers. KFkairosfocus
June 1, 2016
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Kairosfocus: "PS: CF should note that citing classic cases of an argument will not be overturned by the mere assertion that the sources are theological or philosophical. Those happen to be the main domains in which moral discussion proceeds. And citation is not by that mere fact, fallacy. Dismissive and even denigratory remarks are also not substantial responses. The rhetorical pretence that the issues that lie at the root of the US DoI 1776 and its context are not substantial, is its own all too telling refutation." I clip from 468 above:
After the thousands of words that you have written, you have still failed to demonstrate how what you refer to as objective morality is in any way distinguishable from subjective morality. Waving this off as free will or differing views on moral values does not solve the problem.
clown fish
June 1, 2016
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F/N: It seems we need to address as MSET 0, that there are moral truths. In steps of thought:
1 --> Let's call this proposition, M0. M0 = there is at least one moral truth. 2--> Understand, truths are assertions that accurately describe aspects of reality. As Ari put it, truth says of what is, that it is; and of what is not, that it is not. 3 --> Further understand, morality, of course deals with OUGHT, whether ought-to or ought-not. 4 --> Thus, understand that M0 means: there is at least one assertion (say, X) that accurately describes an actual state of affairs that obtains on which some responsibly free and rational agent A ought-to or ought-not. 5 --> Where, this is not at all yet, we know that X or we know that ~X. Nor for that matter, that there exists some A or there does not exist some A. 6 --> For argument, assert ~ M0. That is, we imply ~X and/or ~A. 7 --> But the assertion, ~ M0, is an assertion about the state of affairs of the world, W, in respect of moral truths. 8 --> That is, the denial attempt ~M0 inadvertently is an instance of M0. For if there is in fact no ought-not, that too would be a moral truth. The moral truth that
(a) all agents A are free to do as they please [and can get away with in a world of might and manipulation],
. . . or else:
(b) that there is no such thing as responsible rational freedom so there is no agent A, implying that there is only blind mechanism and/or blind chance.
9 --> On case (b), however, rationality and responsibility towards truth vanish, argument collapses into manipulation or intimidation, and the life of mindedness is dead. This is absurd, as evidenced by a world of such argument, which implies that A's exist. 10 --> On case (a), A would be free to do as s/he/it pleases, and can get away with. Which would be a momentous moral truth indeed. 11 --> So, ~M0 if it were so would end in the absurdity of destroying responsible reasoned discourse or else in inadvertently being a major moral truth. Thus, ~[~M0], or, M0. 12 --> Therefore, M0 is so, and in fact self evidently so, as this elaboration could be put far more simply and directly i.e. it is patent. 13 --> In effect, at east one moral truth must exist as the denial of existence of moral truth either exemplifies a moral truth or else it implies an end to responsible rational discourse.
We may then move beyond the bare existence of manifestly evident moral truths to examination of specific cases. As has been done up to this morning here at UD. The upshot of such is, that there are many highly important and relevant moral truths that are self evidently so on pain of implying undermining responsible rational discourse and even the credibility of mind. KF PS: CF should note that citing classic cases of an argument will not be overturned by the mere assertion that the sources are theological or philosophical. Those happen to be the main domains in which moral discussion proceeds. And citation is not by that mere fact, fallacy. Dismissive and even denigratory remarks are also not substantial responses. The rhetorical pretence that the issues that lie at the root of the US DoI 1776 and its context are not substantial, is its own all too telling refutation.kairosfocus
June 1, 2016
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Phinehas: "Now, you can either address the question on the table, admit that you have no answer, or reveal quite clearly to other readers that you are much more comfortable trying to avoid the apparent inconsistency than addressing it. Your choice." Why should I answer a question about one sentence that you have taken out of context, completely ignoring the subsequent rationale? Prior to 26 weeks development, it is not possible for a fetus to consciously perceive pain because the brain has not sufficiently developed. The fact that there are a rare few that never develop the ability to consciously feel pain is irrelevant. I was talking about establishing a cutoff time after which abortions should not be allowed except under serious risk to the woman. This time, with an appropriate safety margin for variability in development, would apply to all pregnancies. If you choose to misrepresent what I said, that reflects more on you than on me. Kairosfocus: "CF, divide, polarise, denigrate, dismiss without dealing with substance. Typical. KF" When you start presenting anything with substance, I will respond appropriately to it. So far you have presented scripture, quotes from philosophers (some of them dead for centuries), your own assertions presented as if they were facts, and poor quality graphics, and warnings of us going over the cliff to a broken back. After the thousands of words that you have written, you have still failed to demonstrate how what you refer to as objective morality is in any way distinguishable from subjective morality. Waving this off as free will or differing views on moral values does not solve the problem.clown fish
June 1, 2016
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WJM,
Did KF say that “every objection raised” is an attempt to do such? No.
Correct, yet surely you have not failed to notice that KF spends a fair amount of time analyzing the motives of those he disagrees with. I've experienced it firsthand many times, and he is usually wrong, in my case.
How is it meaningful in the argument to characterize those who disagree with the irrationality of an infinite-regress premise as “reasonable”?
It's a subjective assessment, surely, but I have found no obvious signs that, for example, authors who find no logical problems with certain types of infinite regresses are in business to "divide, polarize, and ruin". As a layperson, I find it an interesting philosophical problem, but have no desire to use the issue to divide people.
do they have a soundly argued rebuttal to the irrational nature of an “infinite-regress” premise for causality? Without providing a logical rebuttal of the points KF makes in his argument about credible worldview beliefs about causality, truth, error, etc., it seems all you are doing by characterizing dissent as “by reasonable people” is trying to rebut the argument without actually having to rebut it.
KF stated: "Infinite , endless regress? Futile and fruitless, infeasible for the finite and fallible". Exactly what is there to rebut? Obviously KF can (and probably has) made a stronger case elsewhere, but not here.
So what if reasonable people disagree? Reasonable people can disagree with all sorts of things; that doesn’t make those particular disagreement “reasonable”.
Of course not. However, difficult philosophical problems exist. Normal, intelligent people, arguing in good faith, sometimes reach different conclusions. I think keeping the motive-mongering (for example: "CF, divide, polarise, denigrate, dismiss without dealing with substance. Typical.") to a minimum would make the discussion more productive.daveS
June 1, 2016
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DS said:
However, the fact that reasonable people can disagree on these issues means not every objection raised is an attempt to “divide, polarise and ruin”, as KF put it.
Did KF say that "every objection raised" is an attempt to do such? No. How is it meaningful in the argument to characterize those who disagree with the irrationality of an infinite-regress premise as "reasonable"? What does that mean? do they have a soundly argued rebuttal to the irrational nature of an "infinite-regress" premise for causality? Without providing a logical rebuttal of the points KF makes in his argument about credible worldview beliefs about causality, truth, error, etc., it seems all you are doing by characterizing dissent as "by reasonable people" is trying to rebut the argument without actually having to rebut it. So what if reasonable people disagree? Reasonable people can disagree with all sorts of things; that doesn't make those particular disagreement "reasonable". Contribute your argument or don't, but referring to mere "disagreement" is nothing but vague hand-waving.William J Murray
June 1, 2016
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WJM,
Why do people keep going back to “not everyone agrees” as if that is some kind of sound rebuttal? Does mere disagreement invalidate evidence or effectively rebut a sound argument?
That in itself is of course not a rebuttal. However, the fact that reasonable people can disagree on these issues means not every objection raised is an attempt to "divide, polarise and ruin", as KF put it.daveS
June 1, 2016
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DS said:
Surely you agree, however, that there are difficult philosophical issues here. For example, not everyone agrees with this in your FTR-FYI.
Why do people keep going back to "not everyone agrees" as if that is some kind of sound rebuttal? Does mere disagreement invalidate evidence or effectively rebut a sound argument?William J Murray
June 1, 2016
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KF,
Infinite , endless regress? Futile and fruitless, infeasible for the finite and fallible.
Nice alliteration, but that's not a convincing argument. The impossibility of infinite regresses is far from a settled matter. I don't want to derail the thread, but there are a lot of contentious issues in this discussion.daveS
June 1, 2016
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Cf said:
I have no moral problem with abortion up until the point at which the brain has sufficiently developed that it counsciously perceives pain.
Then said:
We agree. It [right to life] is the most fundamental of subjective rights.
If you hold that the right to life is the most fundamental of rights, why is it okay to kill the unborn as long as they do not yet feel pain?William J Murray
June 1, 2016
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DS, In a world in which error exists is undeniably true, mere disagreement is not decisive; warrant is. Let us start from this: Take some claim A, then ask why we accept it, which generally leads to B which in turn raises C, D etc. Manifest fact of life. The issue is, where do we go onward. Infinite , endless regress? Futile and fruitless, infeasible for the finite and fallible. So, the process has to stop somewhere at finite remove from A. A point beyond which we provide no deeper level of warrant. The issue then is does the stop point beg the question? If it does, fail. That leads to one serious alternative, a finitely remote world-root level understanding, sustained as a live option in the face of comparative difficulties across factual adequacy, coherence [logical and dynamical], and balanced explanatory power. Which is my argument, I just call such a level the level of first plausibles and the point one's faith point. It matters not if you speak of Neurath's raft, which must have logical and dynamic coherence to work in sometimes stormy seas. That raft sits as a base level that fits the world and works. If you want a technical name, call what I have said moderate foundherentism i/l/o comparative difficulties analysis across major options. Talk of properly basic beliefs if you will. Including some that are incorrigible, some undeniable, some self evident, some plausible axioms, some unshakeable perceptions, others reasonable explanatory constructs. Mix and match. Then, get on with comparative difficulties. The real game. That is just a preliminary, and one that should long since have been a non-problem, since 2400 years ago. KFkairosfocus
June 1, 2016
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