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Subjectivists Need to Check Their Moral Privilege

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Many of our interlocutors here often complain about the lengthy comments KF often posts which frame the necessity of a cohesive and coherent worldview when it comes to moral views and arguments. With others, their arguments often hinge around the insistence that either morals simply are not objective in nature, or that there is no way to tell. Even when the logic shows how subjective morality fails to provide a sound basis for behavior or argument, and fails to differentiate any moral view from another, their mantra seems to be a big “so what?”

IOW, so what if their worldview is rationally inconsistent with their behavior? So what if ultimately subjective morality endorses any and all behavior as moral equivalents? That’s not how most people actually behave, they counter, so worrying about worse-case scenarios derived from subjective morality is a groundless concern, especially since believing in objective morality doesn’t appear to make people behave better. Most people, they argue, have similar enough conscience and empathy and other feelings so that if they just adhere to those, we can have a generally-agreed upon and workable moral system without worrying about whether or not it is objectively true.

One problem with this line of thought – especially for those who grew up in western countries – is that it fails to recognize how a “similar-enough” set of personal feelings about others in society has developed within the framework of a virtually universal belief in certain moral absolutes (inviolable rights). Moral relativists take for granted the impact of hundreds of years of post-Enlightement Christian moral objectivism upon our culture and society when they appeal to feelings baked into culture from hundreds of years of enlightened Christianity as their basis of morality.

IOW, their moral views and feelings (even those that superficially appear to contradict some formal Christian “sins”) are the very product of a culture based on and inextricably steeped in post-enlightenment Christian moral objectivism. Their moral relativism is a privileged position sitting atop, relying upon and operating through the very thing it says does not exist.

Even when the Western moral relativist mistakenly argues for an end to discrimination against transgenders, they are taking for granted that “discrimination” against a minority is “a bad thing” that “most people” would automatically “feel bad” about. They are using an Christian Enlightenment-generated set of moral absolutes entrenched in the citizenry to make an emotional case against what they mistakenly frame as “discrimination”, when anti-discrimination as a good thing itself is not something a relativist would probably have access to use outside of Western Christian Enlightenment. Just look around the world to find that out.

Yeah, it’s real easy to point at empathy and feelings when you can rely on most people around you to share similar feelings. Looking outside of the enlightened, western-civilization box, this isn’t something we find to be a universally-shared moral feeling, even if the precept of moral equality is one you can find from sages of all times and from all locations around the world. Around the world you have entire cultures that have no problem at all seeing women and children as inferior objects to be used and abused, seeing other tribes and cultures as something to be exterminated, beheading gays and mutilating people for small legal infractions. They have zero expectation of any moral equality or rights.

The Western objective-morality idea of an objective, god-given inviolable right to liberty and self-determination set the table for today’s western, post-modern moral relativists; how convenient for them when they offer up a big fat “so what” in arguments showing the logical soundness of objective morality and the principles that came from the Enlightenment. They don’t have to account for their moral perspective and tender sensibilities as long as they ignore where they are drawing them from and what has protected their feelings from the brutality of other social mores in other other places in the world.

Moral subjectivists need to check their moral privilege. If they’re going to dismiss the enlightened Christian natural law objective morality basis, they have no right to take for granted the “feelings” and “conscience” and “empathy” it has generated for them to rely on in their arguments supporting moral relativism.  Every time they claim someone has a right or that they should have some liberty, they are intellectually freeloading on hundreds of years of moral objectivism and enlightened Christian views permeating the society they grew up in.

Comments
F/N: The "prurient," "judgemental," "logical trap" objectively grounded morality that is allegedly dying out:
normally responsive people will at least grudgingly respect the following summary of core, conscience attested morality from the pen of Paul:
Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them . . . . Rom 13:8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong [NIV, "harm"] to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. [ESV]
Where, John Locke, in grounding modern liberty and what would become democratic self-government of a free people premised on upholding the civil peace of justice, in Ch 2 Sec. 5 of his second treatise on civil Government [c. 1690] cites "the judicious [Anglican canon, Richard] Hooker" from his classic Ecclesiastical Polity of 1594 on, as he explains how the principles of neighbour-love are inscribed in our hearts, becoming evident to the eye of common good sense and reasonableness:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man's hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8 and alluding to Justinian's synthesis of Roman Law in Corpus Juris Civilis that also brings these same thoughts to bear:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [Eccl. Polity,preface, Bk I, "ch." 8, p.80, cf. here. Emphasis added.]
We may elaborate on Paul, Locke, Hooker and Aristotle, laying out several manifestly evident and historically widely acknowledged core moral principles for which the attempted denial is instantly and patently absurd for most people -- that is, they are arguably self-evident (thus, warranted and objective) moral truths; not just optional opinions. So also, it is not only possible to
(a) be in demonstrable moral error, but also (b) there is hope that such moral errors can be corrected by appealing to manifestly sound core principles of the natural moral law.
For instance: 1] The first self evident moral truth is that we are inescapably under the government of ought.
(This is manifest in even an objector's implication in the questions, challenges and arguments that s/he would advance, that we are in the wrong and there is something to be avoided about that. That is, even the objector inadvertently implies that we OUGHT to do, think, aim for and say the right. Not even the hyperskeptical objector can escape this truth. Patent absurdity on attempted denial.)
2] Second self evident truth, we discern that some things are right and others are wrong by a compass-sense we term conscience which guides our thought. (Again, objectors depend on a sense of guilt/ urgency to be right not wrong on our part to give their points persuasive force. See what would be undermined should conscience be deadened or dismissed universally? Sawing off the branch on which we all must sit.) 3] Third, were this sense of conscience and linked sense that we can make responsibly free, rational decisions to be a delusion, we would at once descend into a status of grand delusion in which there is no good ground for confidence in our self-understanding. That is, we look at an infinite regress of Plato’s cave worlds: once such a principle of grand global delusion is injected, there is no firewall so the perception of level one delusion is subject to the same issue, and this level two perception too, ad infinitum; landing in patent absurdity. 4] Fourth, we are objectively under obligation of OUGHT. That is, despite any particular person’s (or group’s or august council’s or majority’s) wishes or claims to the contrary, such obligation credibly holds to moral certainty. That is, it would be irresponsible, foolish and unwise for us to act and try to live otherwise. 5] Fifth, this cumulative framework of moral government under OUGHT is the basis for the manifest core principles of the natural moral law under which we find ourselves obligated to the right the good, the true etc. Where also, patently, we struggle to live up to what we acknowledge or imply we ought to do. 6] Sixth, this means we live in a world in which being under core, generally understood principles of natural moral law is coherent and factually adequate, thus calling for a world-understanding in which OUGHT is properly grounded at root level. (Thus worldviews that can soundly meet this test are the only truly viable ones. if a worldview does not have in it a world-root level IS that can simultaneously ground OUGHT, it fails decisively.*) 7] Seventh, in light of the above, even the weakest and most voiceless of us thus has a natural right to life, liberty, the pursuit of fulfillment of one’s sense of what s/he ought to be (“happiness”). This includes the young child, the unborn and more. (We see here the concept that rights are binding moral expectations of others to provide respect in regards to us because of our inherent status as human beings, members of the community of valuable neighbours. Where also who is my neighbour was forever answered by the parable of the Good Samaritan. Likewise, there can be no right to demand of or compel my neighbour that s/he upholds me and enables me in the wrong — including under false colour of law through lawfare. To justly claim a right, one must first be in the right.) 8] Eighth, like unto the seventh, such may only be circumscribed or limited for good cause. Such as, reciprocal obligation to cherish and not harm neighbour of equal, equally valuable nature in community and in the wider world of the common brotherhood of humanity. 9] Ninth, this is the context in which it becomes self evidently wrong, wicked and evil to kidnap, sexually torture and murder a young child or the like as concrete cases in point that show that might and/or manipulation do not make ‘right,’ ‘truth,’ ‘worth,’ ‘justice,’ ‘fairness,’ ‘law’ etc. That is, anything that expresses or implies the nihilist’s credo is morally absurd. 10] Tenth, this entails that in civil society with government, justice is a principal task of legitimate government. In short, nihilistic will to power untempered by the primacy of justice is its own refutation in any type of state. Thus also, 11] Eleventh, that government is and ought to be subject to audit, reformation and if necessary replacement should it fail sufficiently badly and incorrigibly.
(NB: This is a requisite of accountability for justice, and the suggestion or implication of some views across time, that government can reasonably be unaccountable to the governed, is its own refutation, reflecting -- again -- nihilistic will to power; which is automatically absurd. This truth involves the issue that finite, fallible, morally struggling men acting as civil authorities in the face of changing times and situations as well as in the face of the tendency of power to corrupt, need to be open to remonstrance and reformation -- or if they become resistant to reasonable appeal, there must be effective means of replacement. Hence, the principle that the general election is an institutionalised regular solemn assembly of the people for audit and reform or if needs be replacement of government gone bad. But this is by no means an endorsement of the notion that a manipulated mob bent on a march of folly has a right to do as it pleases.)
12] Twelfth, the attempt to deny or dismiss such a general framework of moral governance invariably lands in shipwreck of incoherence and absurdity. As, has been seen in outline. But that does not mean that the attempt is not going to be made, so there is a mutual obligation of frank and fair correction and restraint of evil. _________________ * F/N: After centuries of debates and assessment of alternatives per comparative difficulties, there is in fact just one serious candidate to be such a grounding IS: the inherently good creator God, a necessary and maximally great being worthy of ultimate loyalty and the reasonable responsible service of doing the good in accord with our manifestly evident nature. (And instantly, such generic ethical theism answers also to the accusation oh this is “religion”; that term being used as a dirty word — no, this is philosophy. If you doubt this, simply put forth a different candidate that meets the required criteria and passes the comparative difficulties test: _________ . Likewise, an inherently good, maximally great being will not be arbitrary or deceitful etc, that is why such is fully worthy of ultimate loyalty and the reasonable, responsible service of doing the good in accord with our manifestly evident nature. As a serious candidate necessary being, such would be eternal and embedded in the frame for a world to exist at all. Thus such a candidate is either impossible as a square circle is impossible due to mutual ruin of core characteristics, or else it is actual. For simple instance no world is possible without two-ness in it, a necessary basis for distinct identity inter alia. _________________ It is clear that there is no cogent relativist response to the objectivity or the grounding of moral governance. Indeed, it looks a lot like animosity motivates attempts to undermine what they do not like, while trying to manipulate then through lawfare to usurp the sword of justice and impose will to power. Long, grim history paid for in blood and tears serves as a warning, if we will heed it.
Instead, it seems that clinging to the self- and socially destructive absurd is viewed as "freedom," never mind the all too predictable results of a march of folly. Which last has been described as in effect apocalyptic fantasies. To which, I again respond that the sound lessons of history were paid for in blood and tears, so those who neglect, ignore or dismiss them doom themselves to pay the same coin over and over again. Our civilisation is patently in an accelerating slide down mutually opposed slippery slopes, headed for a hard impact with rock bottom reality. Posterity, for cause, will call this generation accursed, reckless and heedless of sound lessons of history. (Not to mention, of basic common sense.) We need to wake up and face reality, including for example what we have had to do to law, government, education, the media and more to create a situation where we are slaughtering the unborn under false colour of law, rights and choice at a RATE of 50 millions per year. Multiply by 40 years, and then by 1/2 to account for growth and you come to a total that reflects by far and away the worst holocaust in history. The American fraction of this is about 60 millions. And yes, Schaeffer and Koop warned us right there in the 1970's in their book and video series, Whatever Happened to the Human Race. (The latter was, after some struggle, aired on TV in the Washington DC area -- the centre of power of the leading state in the world, only to be dismissed as "propaganda." No, it was a prophetic warning that we have refused to heed. In a context where bloodguilt is the most corrupting influence there is, utterly warping conscience, hardening heart and en-darkening mind . . . often by embedding falsity in our yardstick for judging truth and soundness, whereby we call darkness light and light darkness.) We are an untoward, perverse, corrupt, blood-stained generation on a scale that dwarfs anything that has ever gone on before. We need to first face the truth about ourselves and seek penitence starting with the gift of guilt (instead of moral numbness) then we can by God's grace find repentance and forgiveness [yes, through the gospel, duly authenticated by means of the resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth with 500 unbreakable witnesses], then we can find renewal and healthy reformation. I suspect, however, that our civilisation is going to have to have a hard, back-breaking -- and predictable -- crash with reality comparable to the case study of Ac 27, before we will be inclined to listen to well warranted truth that we have come to despise, dismiss and sneer at. God, have mercy on us. KF PS: Observe, how to date there has been no presentation of another serious candidate world root level IS credibly capable of bearing the weight of OUGHT? Also, notice the consistent incoherence and amorality opening the door to ruthless nihilistic factionalism, agit prop and lawfare of evo mat driven or fellow traveller subjectivism, radical relativism and extreme nominalism about the moral domain. If you want to get an idea of where this is currently headed in the USA, note this recent blog post by Mark Victor Tushnet, a leading scholar of constitutional law and legal history, and currently the William Nelson Cromwell Professor of Law at Harvard Law School:
The culture wars are over; they lost, we won. Remember, they were the ones who characterized constitutional disputes as culture wars [--> lawfare, the usurpation of the sword of justice to impose a ruthless agenda, is an outright act of war] . . . For liberals, the question now is how to deal with the losers in the culture wars. That’s mostly a question of tactics. My own judgment is that taking a hard line (“You lost, live with it”) is better than trying to accommodate the losers, who – remember – defended, and are defending, positions that liberals regard as having no normative pull at all. Trying to be nice to the losers didn’t work well after the Civil War, nor after Brown. (And taking a hard line seemed to work reasonably well in Germany and Japan after 1945.) [--> notice, the revealing and sadly familiar pattern of invidious, tainting comparatives on offer: slavery, racism, nazism, aggressive imperialism . . . telling us a LOT about the hostility and slanderous projection we are dealing with, this professor needs to publicly apologise and retract with a serious mea culpa based explanation, starting with this point] I should note that LGBT activists in particular seem to have settled on the hard-line approach, while some liberal academics defend more accommodating approaches. When specific battles in the culture wars were being fought, it might have made sense to try to be accommodating after a local victory, because other related fights were going on, and a hard line might have stiffened the opposition in those fights. But the war’s over, and we won.
No, you did not win, our civilisation lost, and is headed for an unbelievably hard, back-breaking impact with rock-bottom reality.kairosfocus
June 1, 2016
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CLown Fish
Did I ever say that she was on birth control pills? Why did you jump to this conclusion?
Just an educated guess. More than 99% of women aged 15–44 who have ever had sexual intercourse have used at least one contraceptive method. 62% of all women of reproductive age are currently using a contraceptive method. SB: “Second, if there is good reason to believe that future pregnancies would endanger her life, then the moral solution would be practice natural family planning.”
And we opted for something that was 100% certain to protect her. Forgive me for being selfish.
Sometimes, a 99% guarantee with nature is better than 100% guarantee without it. Example: Among those who use artificial birth control, the divorce rate is 50%. Among those who use natural family planning, it is 2%. There are many reasons why acting according to nature is always better than acting against it. It improves health in other ways, including mental health. More importantly it improves relationships and communication.
If I have mitral valve prolapse, I have it replaced. If I have cataracts, I have the lens replaced.
Not the same thing.
Why is the vas deferens so sacred?
Because it was not altered for the sake of keeping yourself whole. That would be the only moral justification.
If tying those suckers off will guarantee my wife’s safety, it would be morally unacceptable for me to take a chance with natural birth control.
We already know it is morally acceptable "to you." That is not a revelation.
Maybe that is the difference between someone who believes in objective morals and those who believe in subjective morals.
I think the difference, in this case, is in the calculation of who deserves to live. The objectivist thinks that your wife and all unborn children deserve to live. The subjectivist thinks that only his wife deserves to live.StephenB
May 31, 2016
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StephenB M.D.: "First, you (and she) could have honored natural law and refused to pump birth control chemicals into her body that would almost certainly compromise her health. The physical and psychological effects of artificial birth control are devastating. If you had both followed nature, she may not have had problems later on." Did I ever say that she was on birth control pills? Why did you jump to this conclusion? "Second, if there is good reason to believe that future pregnancies would endanger her life, then the moral solution would be practice natural family planning." And we opted for something that was 100% certain to protect her. Forgive me for being selfish. If I have mitral valve prolapse, I have it replaced. If I have cataracts, I have the lens replaced. Why is the vas deferens so sacred? If tying those suckers off will guarantee my wife's safety, it would be morally unacceptable for me to take a chance with natural birth control. Maybe that is the difference between someone who believes in objective morals and those who believe in subjective morals. Ifclown fish
May 31, 2016
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Clown Fish
And I opted for the moral option of having a vasectomy. I sacrificed all future possibility of reproducing to ensure that my wife did not die, as she almost did during her first two pregnancies. As the doctors said she would if she got pregnant again. So, can you tell me what moral option would have been more appropriate?
First, you (and she) could have honored natural law and refused to pump birth control chemicals into her body that would almost certainly compromise her health. The physical and psychological effects of artificial birth control are devastating. If you had both followed nature, she may not have had problems later on. Second, if there is good reason to believe that future pregnancies would endanger her life, then the moral solution would be practice natural family planning. I know of three couples who faced the same decision and made the right choice. No drugs, no surgeries, no more pregnancies.StephenB
May 31, 2016
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StephenB: "However, there are plenty of moral options available for problems related to pregnancy and health issues." I agree. And I opted for the moral option of having a vasectomy. I sacrificed all future possibility of reproducing to ensure that my wife did not die, as she almost did during her first two pregnancies. As the doctors said she would if she got pregnant again. So, can you tell me what moral option would have been more appropriate?clown fish
May 31, 2016
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Hi StephenB: I am interested in these moral options for problems related to pregnancy and health issues. Let's say there is a significant risk that my wife will face a life threatening condition if she becomes pregnant. But we don't want to give up sex. What should we do?zeroseven
May 31, 2016
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Clown Fish
And I fully support your right to impose this moral standard on your own life. But why should I be forced to follow your moral belief on this For my own life?
No one is being forced to do anything. Why do you talk such nonsense? You asked me if I support artificial birth control, and I said no. A better moral alternative is natural family planing. It has nothing to do with the force of civil law. Abortion, on the other hand, should be outlawed.
I have been married for 34 years with three adult children. My wife and I used birth control before and during our marriage. I even had a vasectomy after our children were born because my wife had serious health issues (life threatening) during pregnancy. If I had taken your advice, I may be raising my fourth child (or burying it) without a mother.
I didn't give you any advice. However, there are plenty of moral options available for problems related to pregnancy and health issues. Since you have no interest in them, it follows that you don't think about them when you are faced with a difficult decision.StephenB
May 31, 2016
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StephenB: "I am opposed to all forms of artificial [not natural] birth control. Each sexual act should be open to the transmission of life." And I fully support your right to impose this moral standard on your own life. But why should I be forced to follow your moral belief on this For my own life? I have been married for 34 years with three adult children. My wife and I used birth control before and during our marriage. I even had a vasectomy after our children were born because my wife had serious health issues (life threatening) during pregnancy. If I had taken your advice, I may be raising my fourth child (or burying it) without a mother.clown fish
May 31, 2016
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Clown Fish
Let’s go to the start of the process. Since fertilization often starts in the fallopian tubes, anything that prevents implantation in the uterus is, technically an abortion. IUDs and some formulations of birth control pill can do this. Are you opposed to the concept of IUDs and birth control pills?
It is evil either to prevent a human life from coming into existence or to snuff it out after it has arrived. Still, most people would say the latter act is worse. I am opposed to all forms of artificial [not natural] birth control. Each sexual act should be open to the transmission of life.
I am not asking from the perspective of the woman’s health, just from the perspective of the fertilized egg. I see absolutely no moral problem with women using the IUD or birth control pills as long as they are informed of the inherent risks associated with them. It is an informed decision.
It is no problem for you because you do not respect the sanctity of life or the inherent dignity of the human being.
Frankly, I don’t see abortion as a huge moral problem for the most part.
Well, of course, you don’t. You define morality to please yourself, and it pleases you to discount the evil of abortion.
To keep this in perspective, Canada has absolutely no legal restriction on abortion. In theory, it is legal to abort a baby up until the point it takes its first breath. Given the hyperbole provided by yourself and Kairosfocus (the holocaust pales by comparison), you would expect Canada to be the wild west with regard to abortion.
Bad logic: holocaust = destruction or slaughter on a mass scale. The Jewish holocaust was legal; the abortion holocaust is legal.
Over 90% of abortions in Canada are done in the first trimester; only 2-3% are done after 16 weeks, and no doctor performs abortions past 20 or 21 weeks unless there are compelling health or genetic reasons.
You are confusing a medical procedure with an abortion. The purpose of a medical procedure is to preserve the health of a mother. If a fetus happens to die as an incidental result of that procedure, it is not an abortion because the intent was not to end the life of the fetus. Under the circumstances, it is not an immoral act. An abortion is the purposeful taking of an innocent human life. It is always, and under all circumstances, immoral, because its aim is not to save, but to kill.
So, yes, my moral position on abortion is subjective and based on the available science. KairosFocus comparing it to the holocaust, or you using phrases like slicing and dicing and scalding babies will not convince anybody to change their minds because it is perceived as over-the-top unsupported hyperbole.
Your morality is based on personal preferences and you prefer to let babies be sliced up, sucked into pieces, or scalded to death. It isn’t over-the-top rhetoric. Those are the physical facts of an abortion.StephenB
May 31, 2016
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cf: And I'll note that you put in the "judgemental" qualifier. If all morality is judgmental, then its inclusion is redundant. But when you are signalling with loaded terms, I suppose redundancy is just fine.Phinehas
May 31, 2016
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Phinehas, I noticed that you left out the "prurient" qualifier. All morality is judgemental. But it doesn't have to be prurient.clown fish
May 31, 2016
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cf:
Frankly, I am glad that the type of prurient, judgemental morality that you worship is dying out. And let me add, with all the respect you are due, it can’t come fast enough.
Nice to see you showing KF how to not be so judgmental. :rolleyes:Phinehas
May 31, 2016
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cf:
cf: I have no moral problem with abortion up until the point at which the brain has sufficiently developed that it counsciously perceives pain.
Phin: So, in the case of those born with congenital analgesia, it would be OK to kill them even after they are born?
cf: What about I am in favour of restrictions on abortion don’t you understand?
I am not at all certain that I am the one who is failing to understand. You've stated that you have no moral problem with killing a human that has not developed the ability to consciously perceive pain. (You've apparently developed your entire justification for the kind of abortion you don't think ought to be restricted on this.) Those born with congenital analgesia never develop the ability to consciously perceive pain. Do you have a moral problem killing these humans after birth or not? If you do, then perhaps the inability to consciously perceive pain doesn't work so well as a justification for killing a human being.
cf: The question is, at what point is the fetal brain sufficiently developed such that it can perceive pain.
Phin: Why is that the question? You’ve merely asserted that it is, but I don’t see anywhere that you’ve argued why it ought to be the question.
cf: It is the question that I ask for myself.
Asking yourself questions is a good idea for developing what you believe. Asking yourself questions about those questions might also be helpful. Perhaps you ask yourself that particular question because you've put all of your moral eggs in the empathy basket. But if that basket can't produce a good reason not to kill humans born with congenital analgesia, it might be a good idea to start questioning your questions a bit more deeply.Phinehas
May 31, 2016
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Kairosfocus: "CF, with all due respect, you have already put yourself under this:" Let me "clip" something relevant from my previous post, which you obviously had difficulty comprehending. "Frankly, I am glad that the type of prurient, judgemental morality that you worship is dying out." And let me add, with all the respect you are due, it can't come fast enough.clown fish
May 31, 2016
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CF, with all due respect, you have already put yourself under this:
Ath [in The Laws, Bk X]. . . .[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that fire and water, and earth and air [i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art . . . [such that] all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only [ --> that is, evolutionary materialism is ancient and would trace all things to blind chance and mechanical necessity] . . . . [Thus, they hold] that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.-
[ --> Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT, leading to an effectively arbitrary foundation only for morality, ethics and law: accident of personal preference, the ebbs and flows of power politics, accidents of history and and the shifting sands of manipulated community opinion driven by "winds and waves of doctrine and the cunning craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming . . . " cf a video on Plato's parable of the cave; from the perspective of pondering who set up the manipulative shadow-shows, why.]
These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might,
[ --> Evolutionary materialism -- having no IS that can properly ground OUGHT -- leads to the promotion of amorality on which the only basis for "OUGHT" is seen to be might (and manipulation: might in "spin") . . . ]
and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [ --> Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality "naturally" leads to continual contentions and power struggles influenced by that amorality at the hands of ruthless power hungry nihilistic agendas], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is,to live in real dominion over others [ --> such amoral and/or nihilistic factions, if they gain power, "naturally" tend towards ruthless abuse and arbitrariness . . . they have not learned the habits nor accepted the principles of mutual respect, justice, fairness and keeping the civil peace of justice, so they will want to deceive, manipulate and crush -- as the consistent history of radical revolutions over the past 250 years so plainly shows again and again], and not in legal subjection to them [--> nihilistic will to power not the spirit of justice and lawfulness].
2400 years ago, your measure was taken, by one of the top ten minds of our civilisation. All else is commentary. KFkairosfocus
May 31, 2016
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Kairosfocus: "CF, you confirmed the concerns and just what sort of generation we have become; along the way exposing that your reasoning on matters of morality is very likely to be questionable." As far as I'm concerned, civilization has been improving morally for decades. With the exception of a radical religious fringe, we no longer treat homosexuals as deviant perverted sinners. We allow inter-racial marriage. We are legalizing Doctor assisted suicide for the dying. We are removing the defence of religious freedom for discrimination. We are teaching children the facts, including the risks, about sex, sexual orientation and tolerance of differences. We provide free health care to all citizens, regardless of income. Frankly, I am glad that the type of prurient, judgemental morality that you worship is dying out.clown fish
May 31, 2016
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Phone has: "Why is that the question? You’ve merely asserted that it is, but I don’t see anywhere that you’ve argued why it ought to be the question." It is the question that I ask for myself. "So, in the case of those born with congenital analgesia, it would be OK to kill them even after they are born?" What about I am in favour of restrictions on abortion don't you understand?clown fish
May 31, 2016
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Vivid @398: I guess so. But I'm actually not convinced its as clear as that. Maybe some morals are subjective and some are objective. Maybe they should be looked at in some whole different way rather than as objective or subjective. And we haven't even defined the terms "objective" and "subjective" which can mean different things in different contexts. Not trying to be difficult, but I just don't see it as so black and white. StephenB: If you really thought your society was slicing up and scalding babies by the millions every year you would not be living there. Or if you were, it would only be as a freedom fighter to overturn the evil mass murderers. You sure as hell would be doing more than posting comments on a rather obscure blog.zeroseven
May 31, 2016
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CF, you confirmed the concerns and just what sort of generation we have become; along the way exposing that your reasoning on matters of morality is very likely to be questionable. I suggest that many may find the warning given by Schaeffer and Koop in Whatever Happened to the Human Race, in the 1970's even more relevant today: http://www.amazon.com/Whatever-Happened-Human-Race-Revised/dp/0891072918 . And yes, we were warned in print and video even as what has been happening was gathering steam. We cannot ever say we were not warned in good time. KFkairosfocus
May 31, 2016
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cf:
After implantation, the “official” start of pregnancy, I have no moral problem with abortion up until the point at which the brain has sufficiently developed that it counsciously perceives pain. Keeping in mind that reacting to stimulus and perceiving pain are not the same thing. The question is, at what point is the fetal brain sufficiently developed such that it can perceive pain.
Why is that the question? You've merely asserted that it is, but I don't see anywhere that you've argued why it ought to be the question.
I have no moral problem with abortion up until the point at which the brain has sufficiently developed that it counsciously perceives pain.
So, in the case of those born with congenital analgesia, it would be OK to kill them even after they are born?Phinehas
May 31, 2016
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Kairosfocus: "This is a dark age, an evil and corrupt generation, save yourselves as a remnant snatched from the burning." Save your sermon for your fellow travellers. "And if you have personally been implicated in bloodguilt in this matter, or have enabled it at some level, down to voting for those who have put this into practice under false colours of law, repent and seek forgiveness. " Save your sermon for your fellow travellers. "If you do not feel pangs of guilt over being implicated, that is a very bad sign, ask God for the mercy of guilt and the gift of repentance."" Save your sermon for your fellow travellers. "And, in so doing, understand that Almighty God is now the number one security threat facing our blood-stained, brazen civilisation." Save your sermon for your fellow travellers. "Have enough sense to repent and throw one’s soul on him, for there is at least a rumour that he is merciful." Save your sermon for your fellow travellers. Didn't I already correct you on your patronizing and sermonizing? If you want to discuss the substantive issues, I am willing. If I want to be preached to, I will go to church.clown fish
May 31, 2016
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StephenB: "You are just bluffing and blowing smoke again. Let’s test it. What kind of an argument would “convince” you that it is immoral to slice up babies (or fetuses) or scald them to death?" Keep in mind that I have already stated my position that I am in favour of restrictions on abortion, just not a ban. Let's go to the start of the process. Since fertilization often starts in the fallopian tubes, anything that prevents implantation in the uterus is, technically an abortion. IUDs and some formulations of birth control pill can do this. Are you opposed to the concept of IUDs and birth control pills? I am not asking from the perspective of the woman's health, just from the perspective of the fertilized egg. I see absolutely no moral problem with women using the IUD or birth control pills as long as they are informed of the inherent risks associated with them. It is an informed decision. After implantation, the "official" start of pregnancy, I have no moral problem with abortion up until the point at which the brain has sufficiently developed that it counsciously perceives pain. Keeping in mind that reacting to stimulus and perceiving pain are not the same thing. The question is, at what point is the fetal brain sufficiently developed such that it can perceive pain. "Although the system is clearly immature and much development is still to occur (fig 1), good evidence exists that the biological system necessary for pain is intact and functional from around 26 weeks' gestation."(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1440624/) Given that fetuses develop at slightly different rates, my feeling is that the duration under which abortions should be readily available without restriction is 26 weeks minus a sufficient "safety factor". What the actual date should be is certainly up for discussion. Frankly, I don't see abortion as a huge moral problem for the most part. To keep this in perspective, Canada has absolutely no legal restriction on abortion. In theory, it is legal to abort a baby up until the point it takes its first breath. Given the hyperbole provided by yourself and Kairosfocus (the holocaust pales by comparison), you would expect Canada to be the wild west with regard to abortion. Yet: Over 90% of abortions in Canada are done in the first trimester; only 2-3% are done after 16 weeks, and no doctor performs abortions past 20 or 21 weeks unless there are compelling health or genetic reasons. (http://www.med.uottawa.ca/sim/data/Abortion_e.htm) So, yes, my moral position on abortion is subjective and based on the available science. KairosFocus comparing it to the holocaust, or you using phrases like slicing and dicing and scalding babies will not convince anybody to change their minds because it is perceived as over-the-top unsupported hyperbole.clown fish
May 31, 2016
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CF, specifically on the ongoing 50 millions per year global, 60 millions cumulative in 40-odd years in the USA, slaughter of the most innocent with connivance of law, that speaks for itself; just multiply by 40 years, even if you divide by 2 to account for growth. The worst holocaust in history, bar none. And it speaks for our civilisation with the most decisive terms possible. This is a dark age, an evil and corrupt generation, save yourselves as a remnant snatched from the burning. And if you have personally been implicated in bloodguilt in this matter, or have enabled it at some level, down to voting for those who have put this into practice under false colours of law, repent and seek forgiveness. Where also, we must realise that bloodguilt is the most corrupting force in the world, hardening the heart to the cry of the very first right of all, life. If you do not feel pangs of guilt over being implicated, that is a very bad sign, ask God for the mercy of guilt and the gift of repentance. And, in so doing, understand that Almighty God is now the number one security threat facing our blood-stained, brazen civilisation. Have enough sense to repent and throw one's soul on him, for there is at least a rumour that he is merciful. KFkairosfocus
May 31, 2016
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CF, at this stage, with all due respects it seems you are simply using words in ways you hope will be rhetorically manipulative or will give signals to those of your ilk as to dismissive talking points. On the substance at work, it is quite clear that the matter has long since been decided against your cause. Evolutionary materialistic scientism is both incoherent and amoral, something fellow travellers try to get along with. Thus, it tries to reduce morality to relativism, subjectivism and nominalism in a context of might and manipulation making right. Meanwhile trying to dodge the glaring fact of individuality which it reduces to illusion. For, neuronal chemistry or the like cannot account for responsible, rational freedom, at best it might get to some sort of zombie running programs that are rooted in blind chance and/or mechanical necessity. A civilisation like that dominated by such notions will then be wide open for ruthless, nihilistic manipulators. And the evidence of trends, common sense and history alike is such is headed for a fast slide down a slippery slope of irresponsibility, irrationality and mob behaviour, until it has a very hard collision with rock bottom reality. That south wind you think is favourable to get you to the hoped for secularist utopia is actually the warning sign of a wicked, typhoon force nor'easter. This civilisational voyage will not end well, on current track. And, those who dismissed Cassandra in legend, or Jeremiah and Paul in real life (The latter had survived three shipwrecks by mid Oct 59 AD at Fair Havens, Crete), were the ones on the wrong side of history. Never mind what they imagined at the time. As for me, I have the specific advantage of having seen this sort of pattern play out twice already. KFkairosfocus
May 31, 2016
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Clown Fish
You need to learn a lot about how to present a convincing argument to change a person’s mind about abortion. Accusing pro-choice advocates of contributing to a holocaust will not win over any converts. If anything, your insulting hyperbole will just drive them deeper into their convictions. Since I am pro-choice, I certainly hope that you continue in this tone.
You are just bluffing and blowing smoke again. Let's test it. What kind of an argument would "convince" you that it is immoral to slice up babies (or fetuses) or scald them to death? We already know that your morality is based on feelings and, under the circumstances, you have no feelings for those millions who have been slaughtered. We will not call all those murders a "holocaust" since you do have negative "feelings" for the word (not the act). Perhaps you also have negative feelings about the word "slaughter," though you have no negative feelings about the act itself. So, again, given your irrational skepticism and subjectivism, what argument could someone formulate that would, in your words, "convince" you that abortion is a terrible evil? You and I know that there is no such argument because the record shows that you are imperious to reasoned arguments. Basically, your morality consists in the following: Babies have no moral right to live, but homosexuals have a moral right to use their lower digestive tract as a sex organ and call it marriage. That is where your subjectivism takes you. Meanwhile, you cannot tell us what would change your mind because your mind plays no role in your decisions. It's all about political correctness--labor over unpleasant words and ignore evil acts.StephenB
May 31, 2016
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Kairosfocus: "First, self-evident truth is not a logical trap, nor is it stupid." In the way you are using the term, yes it is. "Let us list MSETs 1 – 3 again, as a reminder of what you are lashing out at:" I have already addressed these in detail. I have no desire to keep repeating myself. Too bad that you don't have that same desire. "I suggest there is nothing in that that should so trigger hostility and lashing out." Who is being hostile and lashing out? I am simply disagreeing with you. "The reaction is disproportionate, and suggests much more is at work than mere differences of opinion." I agree that your reaction is disproportionate, and suggests that much more is at work than mere differences of opinion. I recommend that you adopt a tone similar to Vividbleu's or Zeroseven's. They are capable of disagreeing without patronizing, sermonizing and tossing ad hominems. "As for oh you can live with sliding ever faster down moral slippery slopes, the problem is the hard landing at rock bottom as nihilism and ruthless factionalism working through agit prop and lawfare utterly take over." Have you ever heard of Chicken Little and The Boy Who Cried Wolf? "As is patently in progress across or civilisation." Putting the word "patently" in front of your assertion does not make it any more true.Unfortunately, the evidence does not support your dooms-day scenario.. "With a long and painful history paid for in blood and tears that we neglect at peril." Repeat after me. The sky is falling, the sky is falling". "I suggest that it is time to think again." Yes, it might do you some good. "PPS: Lessons of history, most recently administered over the past 100 years with over 100 million victims, and many hundreds of millions more as a result of the ongoing global abortion holocaust:" You need to learn a lot about how to present a convincing argument to change a person's mind about abortion. Accusing pro-choice advocates of contributing to a holocaust will not win over any converts. If anything, your insulting hyperbole will just drive them deeper into their convictions. Since I am pro-choice, I certainly hope that you continue in this tone.clown fish
May 31, 2016
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F/N: Observe the specific "logical trap" that CF so stringently lashes out over:
Vividbleu: “To put it another way it is impossible for A to be A and non A at the same time in the same relationship, agree?” [CF:] Vivid, please don’t try to play those stupid logical traps that KairosFocus uses rather than trying to have an honest discussion. You are much better than that, and than KairosFocus.
Yes, law of identity, and its corollaries, non-contradiction and excluded middle. As in, behold a bright red ball on a table, A. Now partition the world, W into what is A and what is not A, ~A: W = {A | ~ A } From this, A is A and ~ A is ~ A. LOI Any x in W is not both A and ~A in the same sense and circumstances. LNC Third, any y in W is A, or ~A but not both or neither. LEM (Yes, we can exert the full X-OR, which is there.) Without such distinct identity, we cannot reason, think or communicate. A classic statement of this comes form teh pen of the apostle Paul, yes in foundational Judaeo-Christian teachings, as an example of how such writings do speak to major themes of phil, logic etc:
1 Cor 14:7 If even inanimate musical instruments, such as the flute or the harp, do not give distinct notes, how will anyone [listening] know or understand what is played? 8 And if the war bugle gives an uncertain (indistinct) call, who will prepare for battle?[AMP]
Yes, a concrete basic apt case to make a fundamental point. Of course, the objection is in the wider context of the moral sphere. The matter still obtains, if we cannot have distinct identity, we cannot reason or communicate effectively. So, it is proper to clarify and work towards coherence and grounded warrant in the moral sphere just as in any other. KFkairosfocus
May 31, 2016
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PPS: Lessons of history, most recently administered over the past 100 years with over 100 million victims, and many hundreds of millions more as a result of the ongoing global abortion holocaust:
Ath [in The Laws, Bk X]. . . .[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that fire and water, and earth and air [i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art . . . [such that] all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only [ --> that is, evolutionary materialism is ancient and would trace all things to blind chance and mechanical necessity] . . . . [Thus, they hold] that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.-
[ --> Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT, leading to an effectively arbitrary foundation only for morality, ethics and law: accident of personal preference, the ebbs and flows of power politics, accidents of history and and the shifting sands of manipulated community opinion driven by "winds and waves of doctrine and the cunning craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming . . . " cf a video on Plato's parable of the cave; from the perspective of pondering who set up the manipulative shadow-shows, why.]
These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might,
[ --> Evolutionary materialism -- having no IS that can properly ground OUGHT -- leads to the promotion of amorality on which the only basis for "OUGHT" is seen to be might (and manipulation: might in "spin") . . . ]
and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [ --> Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality "naturally" leads to continual contentions and power struggles influenced by that amorality at the hands of ruthless power hungry nihilistic agendas], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is,to live in real dominion over others [ --> such amoral and/or nihilistic factions, if they gain power, "naturally" tend towards ruthless abuse and arbitrariness . . . they have not learned the habits nor accepted the principles of mutual respect, justice, fairness and keeping the civil peace of justice, so they will want to deceive, manipulate and crush -- as the consistent history of radical revolutions over the past 250 years so plainly shows again and again], and not in legal subjection to them [--> nihilistic will to power not the spirit of justice and lawfulness].
kairosfocus
May 31, 2016
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PS: A reminder of just what is triggering the sort of reactions we see above:
>> normally responsive people will at least grudgingly respect the following summary of such core, conscience attested morality from the pen of Paul:
Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them . . . . Rom 13:8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong [NIV, "harm"] to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. [ESV]
Where, John Locke, in grounding modern liberty and what would become democratic self-government of a free people premised on upholding the civil peace of justice, in Ch 2 Sec. 5 of his second treatise on civil Government [c. 1690] cites "the judicious [Anglican canon, Richard] Hooker" from his classic Ecclesiastical Polity of 1594 on, as he explains how the principles of neighbour-love are inscribed in our hearts, becoming evident to the eye of common good sense and reasonableness:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man's hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8 and alluding to Justinian's synthesis of Roman Law in Corpus Juris Civilis that also brings these same thoughts to bear:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [Eccl. Polity,preface, Bk I, "ch." 8, p.80, cf. here. Emphasis added.]
We may elaborate on Paul, Locke, Hooker and Aristotle, laying out several manifestly evident and historically widely acknowledged core moral principles for which the attempted denial is instantly and patently absurd for most people -- that is, they are arguably self-evident moral truths. For instance: 1] The first self evident moral truth is that we are inescapably under the government of ought. (This is manifest in even an objector's implication in the questions, challenges and arguments that s/he would advance, that we are in the wrong and there is something to be avoided about that. That is, even the objector inadvertently implies that we OUGHT to do, think, aim for and say the right. Not even the hyperskeptical objector can escape this truth. Patent absurdity on attempted denial.) 2] Second self evident truth, we discern that some things are right and others are wrong by a compass-sense we term conscience which guides our thought. (Again, objectors depend on a sense of guilt/ urgency to be right not wrong on our part to give their points persuasive force. See what would be undermined should conscience be deadened or dismissed universally? Sawing off the branch on which we all must sit.) 3] Third, were this sense of conscience and linked sense that we can make responsibly free, rational decisions to be a delusion, we would at once descend into a status of grand delusion in which there is no good ground for confidence in our self-understanding. That is, we look at an infinite regress of Plato’s cave worlds: once such a principle of grand global delusion is injected, there is no firewall so the perception of level one delusion is subject to the same issue, and this level two perception too, ad infinitum; landing in patent absurdity. 4] Fourth, we are objectively under obligation of OUGHT. That is, despite any particular person’s (or group’s or august council’s or majority’s) wishes or claims to the contrary, such obligation credibly holds to moral certainty. That is, it would be irresponsible, foolish and unwise for us to act and try to live otherwise. 5] Fifth, this cumulative framework of moral government under OUGHT is the basis for the manifest core principles of the natural moral law under which we find ourselves obligated to the right the good, the true etc. Where also, patently, we struggle to live up to what we acknowledge or imply we ought to do. 6] Sixth, this means we live in a world in which being under core, generally understood principles of natural moral law is coherent and factually adequate, thus calling for a world in which OUGHT is properly grounded at root level. (Thus worldviews that can soundly meet this test are the only truly viable ones. if a worldview does not have in it a world-root level IS that can simultaneously ground OUGHT, it fails decisively.*) 7] Seventh, in light of the above, even the weakest and most voiceless of us thus has a natural right to life, liberty, the pursuit of fulfillment of one’s sense of what s/he ought to be (“happiness”). This includes the young child, the unborn and more. (We see here the concept that rights are binding moral expectations of others to provide respect in regards to us because of our inherent status as human beings, members of the community of valuable neighbours. Where also who is my neighbour was forever answered by the parable of the Good Samaritan. Likewise, there can be no right to demand of or compel my neighbour that s/he upholds me and enables me in the wrong — including under false colour of law through lawfare. To justly claim a right, one must first be in the right.) 8] Eighth, like unto the seventh, such may only be circumscribed or limited for good cause. Such as, reciprocal obligation to cherish and not harm neighbour of equal, equally valuable nature in community and in the wider world of the common brotherhood of humanity. 9] Ninth, this is the context in which it becomes self evidently wrong, wicked and evil to kidnap, sexually torture and murder a young child or the like as concrete cases in point that show that might and/or manipulation do not make ‘right,’ ‘truth,’ ‘worth,’ ‘justice,’ ‘fairness,’ ‘law’ etc. That is, anything that expresses or implies the nihilist’s credo is morally absurd. 10] Tenth, this entails that in civil society with government, justice is a principal task of legitimate government. Thus also, 11] Eleventh, that government is and ought to be subject to audit, reformation and if necessary replacement should it fail sufficiently badly and incorrigibly. 12] Twelfth, the attempt to deny or dismiss such a general framework of moral governance invariably lands in shipwreck of incoherence and absurdity. But that does not mean that the attempt is not going to be made, so there is a mutual obligation of frank and fair correction and restraint of evil. _________________ * F/N: After centuries of debates and assessment of alternatives per comparative difficulties, there is in fact just one serious candidate to be such a grounding IS: the inherently good creator God, a necessary and maximally great being worthy of ultimate loyalty and the reasonable responsible service of doing the good in accord with our manifestly evident nature. (And instantly, such generic ethical theism answers also to the accusation oh this is “religion”; that term being used as a dirty word — no, this is philosophy. If you doubt this, simply put forth a different candidate that meets the required criteria and passes the comparative difficulties test: _________ . Likewise, an inherently good, maximally great being will not be arbitrary or deceitful etc, that is why such is fully worthy of ultimate loyalty and the reasonable, responsible service of doing the good in accord with our manifestly evident nature. As a serious candidate necessary being, such would be eternal and embedded in the frame for a world to exist at all. Thus such a candidate is either impossible as a square circle is impossible due to mutual ruin of core characteristics, or else it is actual. For simple instance no world is possible without two-ness in it, a necessary basis for distinct identity inter alia.>>
kairosfocus
May 31, 2016
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CF, First, self-evident truth is not a logical trap, nor is it stupid. That itself shows that MSETs 1 - 3 are at work, you are appealing to the compass-sense of conscience that calls us to truth and right. But you are manipulating the sense, through use of dismissive labelling. However, just as was announced, you are unable to escape the force of the points, in denying and dismissing, you only manage to confirm that you can but only appeal to what you would dismiss. In short the self-evidence is trying to teach you something. Something which you obviously resent deeply and find yourself resorting to lashing out rhetorically over. Let us list MSETs 1 - 3 again, as a reminder of what you are lashing out at:
1] The first self evident moral truth is that we are inescapably under the government of ought. (This is manifest in even an objector's implication in the questions, challenges and arguments that s/he would advance, that we are in the wrong and there is something to be avoided about that. That is, even the objector inadvertently implies that we OUGHT to do, think, aim for and say the right. Not even the hyperskeptical objector can escape this truth. Patent absurdity on attempted denial.) 2] Second self evident truth, we discern that some things are right and others are wrong by a compass-sense we term conscience which guides our thought. (Again, objectors depend on a sense of guilt/ urgency to be right not wrong on our part to give their points persuasive force. See what would be undermined should conscience be deadened or dismissed universally? Sawing off the branch on which we all must sit.) 3] Third, were this sense of conscience and linked sense that we can make responsibly free, rational decisions to be a delusion, we would at once descend into a status of grand delusion in which there is no good ground for confidence in our self-understanding. That is, we look at an infinite regress of Plato’s cave worlds: once such a principle of grand global delusion is injected, there is no firewall so the perception of level one delusion is subject to the same issue, and this level two perception too, ad infinitum; landing in patent absurdity . . .
I suggest there is nothing in that that should so trigger hostility and lashing out. Nor, for that matter in the other nine that follow. The reaction is disproportionate, and suggests much more is at work than mere differences of opinion. As for oh you can live with sliding ever faster down moral slippery slopes, the problem is the hard landing at rock bottom as nihilism and ruthless factionalism working through agit prop and lawfare utterly take over. As is patently in progress across or civilisation. With a long and painful history paid for in blood and tears that we neglect at peril. I suggest that it is time to think again. KFkairosfocus
May 30, 2016
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