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Subjectivists Need to Check Their Moral Privilege

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Many of our interlocutors here often complain about the lengthy comments KF often posts which frame the necessity of a cohesive and coherent worldview when it comes to moral views and arguments. With others, their arguments often hinge around the insistence that either morals simply are not objective in nature, or that there is no way to tell. Even when the logic shows how subjective morality fails to provide a sound basis for behavior or argument, and fails to differentiate any moral view from another, their mantra seems to be a big “so what?”

IOW, so what if their worldview is rationally inconsistent with their behavior? So what if ultimately subjective morality endorses any and all behavior as moral equivalents? That’s not how most people actually behave, they counter, so worrying about worse-case scenarios derived from subjective morality is a groundless concern, especially since believing in objective morality doesn’t appear to make people behave better. Most people, they argue, have similar enough conscience and empathy and other feelings so that if they just adhere to those, we can have a generally-agreed upon and workable moral system without worrying about whether or not it is objectively true.

One problem with this line of thought – especially for those who grew up in western countries – is that it fails to recognize how a “similar-enough” set of personal feelings about others in society has developed within the framework of a virtually universal belief in certain moral absolutes (inviolable rights). Moral relativists take for granted the impact of hundreds of years of post-Enlightement Christian moral objectivism upon our culture and society when they appeal to feelings baked into culture from hundreds of years of enlightened Christianity as their basis of morality.

IOW, their moral views and feelings (even those that superficially appear to contradict some formal Christian “sins”) are the very product of a culture based on and inextricably steeped in post-enlightenment Christian moral objectivism. Their moral relativism is a privileged position sitting atop, relying upon and operating through the very thing it says does not exist.

Even when the Western moral relativist mistakenly argues for an end to discrimination against transgenders, they are taking for granted that “discrimination” against a minority is “a bad thing” that “most people” would automatically “feel bad” about. They are using an Christian Enlightenment-generated set of moral absolutes entrenched in the citizenry to make an emotional case against what they mistakenly frame as “discrimination”, when anti-discrimination as a good thing itself is not something a relativist would probably have access to use outside of Western Christian Enlightenment. Just look around the world to find that out.

Yeah, it’s real easy to point at empathy and feelings when you can rely on most people around you to share similar feelings. Looking outside of the enlightened, western-civilization box, this isn’t something we find to be a universally-shared moral feeling, even if the precept of moral equality is one you can find from sages of all times and from all locations around the world. Around the world you have entire cultures that have no problem at all seeing women and children as inferior objects to be used and abused, seeing other tribes and cultures as something to be exterminated, beheading gays and mutilating people for small legal infractions. They have zero expectation of any moral equality or rights.

The Western objective-morality idea of an objective, god-given inviolable right to liberty and self-determination set the table for today’s western, post-modern moral relativists; how convenient for them when they offer up a big fat “so what” in arguments showing the logical soundness of objective morality and the principles that came from the Enlightenment. They don’t have to account for their moral perspective and tender sensibilities as long as they ignore where they are drawing them from and what has protected their feelings from the brutality of other social mores in other other places in the world.

Moral subjectivists need to check their moral privilege. If they’re going to dismiss the enlightened Christian natural law objective morality basis, they have no right to take for granted the “feelings” and “conscience” and “empathy” it has generated for them to rely on in their arguments supporting moral relativism.  Every time they claim someone has a right or that they should have some liberty, they are intellectually freeloading on hundreds of years of moral objectivism and enlightened Christian views permeating the society they grew up in.

Comments
Hi StephenB: Well KF disagrees with you on that. He says it not on the list. You make my point.zeroseven
May 30, 2016
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StephenB: "Let’s take your example: Thou Shalt Not Murder. Apply reason: Thou Shalt Not Also Murder Thyself. Therefore, suicide is wrong. What is so difficult about that?" Thank you for admitting that your argument for objective morality is religiously based. It is very refreshing to see this on This site.clown fish
May 30, 2016
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zeroseven
Let’s say I say suicide is objectively morally right. You say its wrong. How do we resolve our difference of opinion? We can’t. We just have to accept we have a different position on that particular moral question. If there is an objective answer its of no use to us as we can’t go and look it up or see it or hear it etc.
Have you never heard of the Ten Commandments? Have you never heard of the Tao, which is basically the same thing in non-religious form, i.e., the Natural Moral Law. Are you not capable of applying reason to these general moral laws in order to analyze the morality of any specific moral question? Let's take your example: Thou Shalt Not Murder. Apply reason: Thou Shalt Not Also Murder Thyself. Therefore, suicide is wrong. What is so difficult about that?StephenB
May 30, 2016
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KairosFocus: "The price tag for clinging to subjectivism, radical root level[ relativism and linked extreme nominalism..." If you are going to characterize everything anyone says who disagrees with you as "radical" and "extreme", why should we put in any effort to explain our views? Please grow up and discuss issues as mature adults do. "as a quick note, difference of views in a world in which error exists is irrelevant to objectivity of moral truths, e.g. principles of justice." I agree. When the errors are on the order of five or ten percent, you have a point. But when the errors range from human sacrifice is morally acceptable to human sacrifice is morally unacceptable (multiplied by thousands of similar examples), we are not talking about experimental or observational error. We are talking about fundamental differences in fundamental moral values. Where is the objectivity in this?clown fish
May 30, 2016
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KF seems to say its morally indifferent. But I don't know how he knows that, and how he can authoritatively say "its not on the list". As if there is an actual list somewhere.zeroseven
May 30, 2016
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Clown Fish
I’m afraid that philisophical and theological mumbo-jumbo cannot over-rule cold hard facts. Slavery was considered to be morally acceptable for much of human history.
Bad logic: [a] Just because society engages in a practice doesn’t mean that it considers such behavior morally justified. People do bad things all the time and pretend to now know they are bad. Alcoholics get drunk every day even though they know they shouldn’t do it. [b] There are many kinds of slavery. Some are immoral; some are moral. The problem is that subjectivists can’t make that distinction. Because they have no standard, they cannot make moral calculations. For them, indentured servitude is the same as chattel slavery. It isn’t. [c] Everyone has always known that chattel slavery is wrong, but many wouldn’t admit it publicly, because they wanted to do something immoral, and privately, because denial salved their conscience. To know what is right is not necessarily to do what is right. All you other examples are based on the same error.StephenB
May 30, 2016
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CF, notice the matches you are playing with:
And suicide is wrong is not in the list; though robbing oneself of life is dubious and a culture in which “right” to die is put up soon becomes one of duty to die for the convenience of others. Thence eugenics, euthanasia and genocide as the sacredness of life is progressively undermined. And yes that is a real slippery slope with unfortunately a lot of historical warrant. Think about a world in which doctors are murderers and an elderly patient with property can never be sure that the medication or treatment on offer is to restore health or conveniently accelerate death . . . and then you will see some of the why behind the Hippocratic Oath.
KFkairosfocus
May 30, 2016
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07, a very good example. Is suicide morally wrong, morally right, or morally indifferent? My feeling is that it really comes down to who owns the life. A theist would argue that it is a gift from God and, therefore, would be immoral to throw it away. An atheist might argue that it is the individual's life to throw away When and where they want. I must admit that I would try to talk a loved one out of committing suicide, but how would I be able to argue that my opposition is not for selfish reasons? The only thing I know for certain is that if I was dying of cancer, and suffering, I would fight anyone who said that I could not make that choice for myself. Not that I would take that choice, but as far as I am concerned, it is nobody else's choice to make for me.clown fish
May 30, 2016
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07, the core principles of morality are not things that have to be guessed at. They are well known, powerful and applicable. You already have demanded a list of such principles then have been in the main absent once such were given with indicators of why the attempted denial ends in absurdity. And suicide is wrong is not in the list; though robbing oneself of life is dubious and a culture in which "right" to die is put up soon becomes one of duty to die for the convenience of others. Thence eugenics, euthanasia and genocide as the sacredness of life is progressively undermined. And yes that is a real slippery slope with unfortunately a lot of historical warrant. Think about a world in which doctors are murderers and an elderly patient with property can never be sure that the medication or treatment on offer is to restore health or conveniently accelerate death . . . and then you will see some of the why behind the Hippocratic Oath. KFkairosfocus
May 30, 2016
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CF, as a quick note, difference of views in a world in which error exists is irrelevant to objectivity of moral truths, e.g. principles of justice. As was long since pointed out. What you seem to consistently fail to address is the implications of the general testimony of conscience regarding core morality being delusional, in a context where conscience calls us to the right, the prudent, the true, the sound and this is inextricably involved in our whole inner life: grand delusion. The price tag for clinging to subjectivism, radical root level[ relativism and linked extreme nominalism [effectively only particles have natures] is the undermining of confidence in our whole life of the mind. Besides the import of amorality and might/manipulation makes right nihilism. That is, self-referential delusion across the life of the mind, utter incoherence and irrationality. As has been pointed out already, just it was rhetorically brushed aside. We can safely dismiss any system that ends in grand delusion and so we have every good reason to trust that conscience on the whole aptly responds to an objective, binding, moral state of affairs. KFkairosfocus
May 30, 2016
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Vivid, I think the point is that there is no practical difference between an objective moral code that is not written down anywhere and just has to be guessed at, and a subjective morality. Let's say I say suicide is objectively morally right. You say its wrong. How do we resolve our difference of opinion? We can't. We just have to accept we have a different position on that particular moral question. If there is an objective answer its of no use to us as we can't go and look it up or see it or hear it etc.zeroseven
May 30, 2016
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Vividbleu: "Clown would you like to logically demonstrate simply because people have different views about what the truth about morality is DOES logically necessitate that morality itself is subjective in nature?" Hi Vivid, happy Memorial Day. I never said that it necessitates subjective morality. I just said that it is strong evidence for it (or against objective morality). You must admit, there appears to be a double standard at work here. The same people who say that evolutionists are irrational for continuing to support the theory when there are some observations that appear to conflict with it, are the same ones who see nothing wrong with supporting objective morality when there is absolutely no evidence supporting it.clown fish
May 30, 2016
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Clown " or WKM’s response that “simply because people have different views about what the truth about morality is doesn’t logically necessitate that morality itself is subective in nature" Clown would you like to logically demonstrate simply because people have different views about what the truth about morality is DOES logically necessitate that morality itself is subjective in nature? Vividvividbleau
May 30, 2016
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KairosFocus: "the implications of the view you are enabling are as follows, manifested through 2400 years of history:" You can't enable reality, you can only observe it, acknowledge it and try to work within it. To do otherwise is to bury your head in the sand and delude yourself into believing something that does not exist. "PS: The no evidence hyperskeptical gambit also fails, as evidence was provided up to and including demonstrating the reductio ad absurdum." I'm afraid that philisophical and theological mumbo-jumbo cannot over-rule cold hard facts. 1 --> Slavery was considered to be morally acceptable for much of human history. 2 --> Slavery is now considered morally unacceptable for most human cultures. 3 --> The lack of equality of women was considered morally acceptable for much of human history. 4 --> Equality of women is now considered a moral value amongst the same cultures. 5 --> Homosexuality was considered morally unacceptable for much of human history (in the Judeo-Christian culture). 6 --> Homosexuality was considered morally acceptable for much of human history (in the Hindu and American Indian cultures). 7 --> Child and other human sacrifices were considered morally acceptable for some pre-Columbian MesoAmerican cultures. 8 --> Child and human sacrifices are considered morally unacceptable in Judeo-Christian cultures. 9 --Suicide was considered morally acceptable, and the honourable thing to do, in pre WWII Japanese culture. 10 --> Suicide is considered morally unacceptable in Judeo-Christian cultures. 11 --> Cannibalism is considered morally unacceptable in most human cultures. 12 --> Cannibalism was considered morally acceptable in many human cultures throughout history. The only arguments that I have ever heard from objectivists with regard to the hundreds and thousands of glaring variations in moral values is that it is the result of free will, or WKM's response that "simply because people have different views about what the truth about morality is doesn’t logically necessitate that morality itself is subective in nature." But if people's beliefs about moral truths vary so dramatically between cultures and over time within each culture, how is this any different than subjective morality? And how do we know that the "objective moral values" that you currently believe in, are the correct ones? As I have said before, that would appear to be the height of arrogance to think that your moral values (or WJM's or mine) are the correct ones and that those of the thousands of societies and cultures that predate ours were inferior. The most you can say is that you think that your current moral values (or WJM's or mine) are the best for the society we currently find ourselves. If ours differ from the bulk of the society we live in, we can try to convince others that they are wrong (difficult, but history is full of examples), move to a society that better reflect your moral values (people have done this by the thousands throughout history) or accept that that there are differences and hope that it doesn't lead over a cliff towards a broken back. Frankly, I am very optimistic about scoiety.clown fish
May 30, 2016
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CF, the implications of the view you are enabling are as follows, manifested through 2400 years of history:
Ath. . . .[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that fire and water, and earth and air [i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art . . . [such that] all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only [ --> that is, evolutionary materialism is ancient and would trace all things to blind chance and mechanical necessity] . . . . [Thus, they hold] that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.-
[ --> Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT, leading to an effectively arbitrary foundation only for morality, ethics and law: accident of personal preference, the ebbs and flows of power politics, accidents of history and and the shifting sands of manipulated community opinion driven by "winds and waves of doctrine and the cunning craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming . . . " cf a video on Plato's parable of the cave; from the perspective of pondering who set up the manipulative shadow-shows, why.]
These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might,
[ --> Evolutionary materialism -- having no IS that can properly ground OUGHT -- leads to the promotion of amorality on which the only basis for "OUGHT" is seen to be might (and manipulation: might in "spin") . . . ]
and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [ --> Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality "naturally" leads to continual contentions and power struggles influenced by that amorality at the hands of ruthless power hungry nihilistic agendas], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is,to live in real dominion over others [ --> such amoral and/or nihilistic factions, if they gain power, "naturally" tend towards ruthless abuse and arbitrariness . . . they have not learned the habits nor accepted the principles of mutual respect, justice, fairness and keeping the civil peace of justice, so they will want to deceive, manipulate and crush -- as the consistent history of radical revolutions over the past 250 years so plainly shows again and again], and not in legal subjection to them.
KF PS: The no evidence hyperskeptical gambit also fails, as evidence was provided up to and including demonstrating the reductio ad absurdum.kairosfocus
May 30, 2016
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Kairosfocus: "Steps of thought allow reasonably easy reference, why would you imagine and project like that? Could it be that you think such may be unfair?" Supercilious and inane, yes. Unfair, no. "As in We OUGHT to be fair?" You OUGHT to do whatever you want in this respect. In fact, it is much to my benefit for you to not discuss issues openly and fairly with me. It is the surest way to demonstrate the weakness of your side of the argument. "As for the points made, the implications of radical relativisation of morality, subjectivism and nominalism have already been highlighted." Calling subjective morality "radical" is just meaningless hyperbole if you can't provide evidence for objective morality. That would be like talking about radical heliocentrism or radical germ theory. Sure, there are implications of moral values not being objective. So what? Calling them objective does not seem to have made any difference to civilizations over time. The evidence, throughout history, and amongst cultures, is that if objective morality exists, it must be completely beyond our understanding. And if it is, then it is indistinguishable from subjective morality. And since there has been no historic agreement on what these objective moral values are, it would be the hight of arrogance to think that we understand them now.clown fish
May 30, 2016
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CF, Steps of thought allow reasonably easy reference, why would you imagine and project like that? Could it be that you think such may be unfair? As in We OUGHT to be fair? As for the points made, the implications of radical relativisation of morality, subjectivism and nominalism have already been highlighted. They still stand. Later. KFkairosfocus
May 30, 2016
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Just an update on SSM in Canada. The Conservative party convention has now voted to change their policy position in favour of supporting SSM. That means that all three parties in Canada (four if you include the one member from the Greens) fully support same sex marriage. That cliff is getting closer and closer every day.clown fish
May 30, 2016
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KAirosfocus, Does putting a number in front of every sentence make your points more valid? I don't think so, but I am willing to follow your example. 1 --> I think that Seversky has made some very good points and observations at 349. 2 --> Most of your SETs are wishful thinking. 3 --> Subjectively derived truths, not self-evident truths. 4 --> Most people have morals and a conscience. 5 --> This can be considered a truth based on extensive observation but not as a SET. 6 --> If we were alone on a desert island, how would we know that other people have moral values and a conscience; this can only be known by observation. 7 --> We are indoctrinated from an early age with rules, whether from church, parents, teachers, etc. 8 --> Violations of any of these results in negative consequences to us, therefore, reinforcing our core morals. 9 --> By observing the negative consequences of (hopefully) minor infractions of these core moral values, this reinforces those that we have not violated; in the same way that it requires observation to discern the truth that not everyone has the same hair colour. 10 --> Experience, observation, critical thinking and the ability to predict the consequences of actions further reinforce our core moral values as well as establishing new ones. 11 --> Some of the moral values established through critical thinking and the ability to predict consequences will start out as being less strongly held but could become more deeply entrenched with further observation and experience. 12 --> You will notice that none of this requires objective moral values.clown fish
May 30, 2016
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Seversky, 349: I will pick up points that strike my attention, bearing in mind the just above on the alternatives. >> we observe that most, if not all, human societies develop rules to regulate how their members behave towards one another. They choose to be under “the government of ought” probably because it promotes social cohesion and security.>> 1 --> This skirts with might and manipulation make 'right' and 'truth' etc, once objectivity is scanted. 2 --> Such incipient nihilism opens the door to injustice. >>If it is a truth, it is under the correspondence theory rather than a declaration of SET by fiat. >> 3 --> The immediate context of my statement outlining MSET 1 to 07 laid out the reason why we see this to be necessarily so on pain of patent absurdity, so "fiat" is a loaded strawman caricature. 4 --> Note, how I expanded to CF by way of slight decompression of the logic:
Notice, again, the structure of the first manifestly evident core principle of the natural moral law: TRUTH CLAIM: 1] The first self evident moral truth is that we are inescapably under the government of ought. PROBLEM WITH OBJECTION: This is manifest in even an objector’s implication in the questions, challenges and arguments that s/he would advance, that we are in the wrong and there is something to be avoided about that. MEANING OF THIS PROBLEM: That is, even the objector inadvertently implies that we OUGHT to do, think, aim for and say the right. UNIVERSALITY: Not even the hyperskeptical objector can escape this truth. THE ABSURDITY: Patent absurdity on attempted denial. That is, self evidence . . .
5 --> Your own objection, flawed as it is, is replete with OUGHTs. It exemplifies the point, pervasiveness of ought and perception of ought in a context of implicit acknowledgement of its binding nature in our thought and action. 6 --> Such is strong evidence of not only correspondence with reality but of inescapable truth; to try to deny implies inadvertent support, contradicting the denial. >>Truths describe, morals prescribe. They do not perform the same function, they are not the same thing.>> 7 --> Again, it can be and evidently is an accurate description of reality that we find ourselves undeniably under moral obligation. 8 --> That is, one may accurately describe an existing state of affairs where certain beings are morally governed and are subject to particular principles which are true to reality. 9 --> In short, is and ought cannot be so easily dismissed as incapable of unification. (Which points to the IS-OUGHT gap and the only place in the world where they may be unified, the root level of reality.) 10 --> Of course on the implicit assumption of evolutionary materialism such cannot be effected, but the truth of this view is open to challenge. It is self-falsifying and inherently amoral, thus irretrievably falsified. 11 --> But by dressing such up in a lab coat many have been tempted to set up such falsity as a yardstick for truth, crippling their ability to discern contrary truth. 12 --> For, at the crux, the accurate description of reality will always disagree with the falsity; but if truth be measured by falsity, darkness is given power to lock out light. 13 --> This is a big part of the ongoing agenda: divide, polarise and ruin our civilisation. >>We can also reject a claim of SET because it is neither self-evident nor true . . . . I would argue that, if they are claims about the nature of objective reality, there can be no SETs prior to observation. How can you say that something is self-evidently true if you have no knowledge of the referent? . . . . The laws of thought are true by definition within the formal system of logic but even they are arguably derived from observation of the natural world. We never observe a tomato to be a volcano at the same. That and other observations can be generalized into those principles.>> 14 --> I of course spoke of specific observation. 15 --> In order to understand a discussion, concepts etc, one needs to have a sufficiently mature experience of the world, capability of insights and due reflection upon such. 16 --> SETs come in when we address the difference between what is contingently so and what is necessarily so [and this on pain of patent absurdity not arduous demonstration], given reasonable background. It is noteworthy how the specific discussion was skipped over in haste to dismiss:
BC 9: an empirical fact is a fact of observation of the world of experience. BC 10: a self evident truth is something that is true, and on actually understanding what is being claimed is seen as necessarily so on pain of patent absurdity. That is, the rejection or dismissal of a SET comes at a price of surrendering rational discussion on a matter. SETs are not proved, they are examined, explained and understood . . . made sense of . . . as the start-points of proof or investigation. Sometimes, they are termed first principles. BC 11: Distinct identity is the start point of reasoning, i.e. we mark some A (say a bright red ball on a table) as distinct from the rest of the world that is not A, ~A; W = { A | ~ A }. Instantly, A is A (as opposed to not A), any x in W cannot be A AND ~A in the same sense and circumstances, and any y in W is A or ~A but not both or neither . . . and yes I am using the full exclusive or. These are the three classic laws of thought: identity, non-contradiction, excluded middle. (These three are self evident, indeed we cannot prove them as to try to prove them we implicitly must already rely on them — even, to just talk about them we must use distinct thoughts, symbols, glyphs, sounds etc. Instead we come to recognise and understand them, and to see their significance and utter trustworthiness beyond any reasonable, responsible doubt. Similar things obtain for how a conscious being is undeniably and incorrigibly aware of its consciousness, and for something like error exists.) BC 12: In this context, moral SETs hold as first core principles of moral governance of responsibly and rationally free individuals that are so, are seen to be so on insightful reflection i/l/o our existing base of experience of our world, and are seen to be necessarily or undeniably so on pain of absurdity. The attempted denial undermines itself in some significant way that shows that this is an utterly reliable start point for moral reflection on the world of OUGHT. In the case above [MSET 1], attempted denial will invariably reflect reliance on the premise that we OUGHT to seek the truth, the right, the fair etc.
>> S: For example, a smoking gun on its own is just that and nothing more. It is not evidence for anything save perhaps its own existence. Discovered in the hand of someone standing over the body of another who lies dead from a gunshot wound, however, it becomes evidence for the claim or proposition that the survivor shot the victim. KF: 7 –> A smoking gun is a contingent circumstance, it is not a SET. This is a tangential discussion that sets up and tries to knock over a strawman. S: No, it simply illustrates the point that data only becomes evidence in the context of an explanation. This is true of evidence in law or science. If you have a different definition, feel free to present it.>> 17 --> Empirical data is evidence in the context of an UNDERSTANDING of the world and of particular circumstances, which may require evaluating alternative views, assumptions, arguments and explanations. In short, explanation is being over-loaded with all sorts of distinct and material issues. 18 --> The strawmannish character comes up in suggesting that only empirical circumstances are in view, that the observer and reflect-er on such is tabula rasa in effect. But in fact seeing is seeing-as. So, the inner conceptual world must be bridged to the external one in the first instance. 19 --> On this F H Bradley's retort to Kant et al, that the man who imagines that there is an unbridgeable gulch between the inner and outer worlds is asserting a knowledge claim taken for fact about that outer world, brings out a key point. That is, abstract analysis and logical factors are part of reality and of understanding, not just rules of a game called logic. 20 --> It is in that context of bridging that the significance of SETs comes out. Certain things about reality are not merely observed and could readily have been otherwise, but are necessary and unavoidable to the point where attempted denial lands instantly in patent absurdity. To deny that error exists entails meaning it is an error to assert that error exists. 21 --> And likewise, to reason at all, observe at all etc, we must accept distinct identity. Such can be seen as directly entailing the LOI, LNC and LEM to the point that we cannot act rationally without implying acceptance of these three. Such is not an arbitrary cluster of theorems, no logically and dynamically coherent, feasible world is possible in which they do not hold. 22 --> In short, basic rationality is in the stakes. >>There are statements that are true by definition and there are statements that are true to the extent that they correspond with what we can observe. What truths do you have in mind which do not fall into either of those categories?>> 23 --> Is this claim held true by fiat of definition or is it true as empirical observation and presumably generalisation? 24 --> If the former, question-begging. 25 --> If the latter, hasty and faulty generalisation that fails to recognise that there are truths of understanding that may be recognised i/l/o experience and insight but which are necessary. Necessary on pain of patent absurdity on attempted denial, as was already exemplified. 26 --> As was already highlighted, such are self-evident. So, the question was cogently answered before it was asked. >>I have called myself a materialist v2.0 which equates to the more modern concept of physicalism. The objective natural world is what we are able to observe around us and is both everything that is both us and everything that is not us. [--> materialism] It is composed of what we describe as matter and energy which are essentially the same thing but in various different forms or phases. The nature of this matter/energy, its origins [--> that which begins has a cause], how and why it behaves as it does are still not clearly understood. We don’t know if there are other universes beyond this one or other domains of existence. All I can say is that I have yet to see any observations or arguments that would lead me to think that morality exists anywhere but in the subjective consciousness of beings such as ourselves [--> the ugly gulch in action, materialist form] . . . . Evolutionary materialism, like any other claim, is true to the extent we observe it corresponds to what it purports to describe and we do observe some correspondence. It is amoral because it does not – nor was ever intended – to address moral issues. It is a claim about what is [--> an assertion that all that is is material, mass-energy, space-time] not what ought to be and, as such, cannot be a foundation for any morality. We need to find other grounds for those.>> 27 --> As already observed: "[t]he relevant sense of nature and laws of nature for moral government has to reckon with the force of responsible freedom and rationality, where evolutionary materialism self-falsifies and is inescapably amoral [--> a discussion on this is yet again linked], it has no resources to cogently address reason and responsibility, it cannot bridge the IS-OUGHT gap." 28 --> In other words . . . and I must acknowledge and respect the admission . . . implicit agreement. The import of such implicit amorality, unfortunately, is that the door is now opened for the practice of the credo of nihilism -- might and manipulation make 'right,' 'truth,' 'meaning,' 'value,' 'rights/duties,' 'justice' etc etc. With bloodily grim track record over 2400 years and especially the past 100. 29 --> Reduction to absurdity and the ongoing pattern of divide, polarise and ruin that haunts our civilisation. 30 --> The rest of my concerns follow immediately on that, and the significance of the point that rejecting MSETs leads to clinging to absurdity is underscored. 31 --> The argument based on disagreement is over. The issue is to find a sound alternative to absurdity, amorality, nihilism and a road to ruin. 32 --> That requires worldviews analysis, informed by comparative difficulties and assessing first plausibles. Later . . . KFkairosfocus
May 30, 2016
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Seversky: I just noticed a response. I will go to a first key issue then follow up later. This, captures the heart of your problem:
there are core moral principles which have been recognized and asserted over the centuries but it is also arguable that is because they reflect basic human needs and interests that have been unchanged for millennia. We have observational evidence of the universality of those needs, which it would be absurd to deny, but there is no reason to think that the core moral principles which we have codified to protect those needs are anything other than rules our own creation.
In short, you recognise that here are circumstances that draw out principles of response from morally governed creatures, that do appear consistently. But, the answer is, must ever be it seems, we have made up a myth from our own imaginations, so there. Really? What you have done is to resort to grand delusion, i.e. our acknowledged sense of being under binding moral obligation of oughtness in respect of justice etc, is founded on imagination only. But the nature of this is that that oughtness pervades our life of the mind, ought-to truth, ought -to the right, ought-to the respect for the other, etc etc. So, we see the cost price for the assignment of that sense of being under law to delusion. Grand delusion, spreading into all of our inner life and thought, without firewalls. Let me for convenience excerpt from here:
We may now carry this forward, to briefly address the vexed problem of the fairly common attempt to reduce morality to subjective or otherwise relative perceptions imposed by persuasion or force. For this, it is perhaps best to start with a very concrete case, one which is unfortunately not just theoretical:
ASSERTION: it is self-evidently wrong, bad and evil to kidnap, torture, sexually violate and murder a young child. Likewise, by corollary: if we come across such a case in progress, it is our duty to try to intervene to save the child from such a monster.
Almost all people will agree that such a case is horrible, and to be deplored. So also, they wil agree that a duty of rescue obtains, or at least succor for someone left half dead. Thus, we see the significance of the Good Samaritan as a paradigm of neighbourliness across racial, religious, political and other dividing-lines or even outright enmity . . . . in the view of too many today, we are left to the feelings of revulsion and the community consensus backed up by police and courts on this. Not so. Compare a fish, that we lure to bite on a hook, then land, kill and eat for lunch without compunction. And even for those who object, they will do so by extension of the protective sense we have about say the young child -- not the other way around. But, unless there is a material difference between a young child and a fish, that sense of wrong is frankly delusional, it is just a disguised preference, one that we are simply willing to back up with force. So, already, once we let radical relativism and subjectivism loose, we are looking at the absurdity and chaos of the nihilist abyss, might (and manipulation) makes for 'right.' Oops. At the pivot of the skeptical objections to objective moral truth, notwithstanding persistent reduction to absurdity, is the pose that since we may err and since famously there are disagreements on morality, we can reduce moral feelings to subjective perceptions tastes and preferences, dismissing any and all claims of objectivity much less self evidence. So, the objector triumphantly announces: there is an unbridgeable IS-OUGHT gap, game over. Not so fast, as there is no better reason to imagine that we live in a moral Plato’s Cave world, than that we live in a physical or intellectual Plato’s Cave world. That is, we consider the imagined world of Plato where the denizens, having been imprisoned from childhood, all imagine that the shadow shows portrayed for their benefit are reality. Until, one is loosed, sees the apparatus of manipulation, then is led outside and learns of the reality that is there to be discovered. Then he tries to rescue his fellows, only to be ridiculed and attacked . . . . Now, the skeptical question is, do we live in such a delusional world (maybe in another form such as the brains in vats or the Matrix's pods . . . ), and can we reliably tell the difference? The best answer to such is, that such a scenario implies general delusion and the general un-trustworthiness of our senses and reasoning powers. So, it undercuts itself in a turtles all the way down chain of possible delusions -- an infinite regress of Plato's cave delusions. Common good sense then tells us that the skeptic has caught himself up in his own web, his argument is self referentially incoherent.
In other words, we have a pretty direct implication of reduction to patent absurdity. Moral hyperskepicism is no more helpful than epistemological hyperskepticism, both instantly reduce to futility. And, we see as well that we face the utter absurdity of looking at the young kidnapped child and trying to justify the claim that oh the sense of urgency to intervene to stop cruelty, abuse and murder is just a delusional feeling, there is nothing more to it than our imaginations, individually and collectively. Apart from might and manipulation make 'right,' 'truth,' 'dignity,' 'worth' 'duty, etc. Nihilism, in one ugly word. Subjectivism, relativism, nominalism and the like massively fail as an attempt to explain away moral government. With grand delusion in the stakes, we have no more reason to reject the objectivity of our moral-compass sense, conscience, than of sight, hearing, and common sense rationality. Never mind the lab coats that dress up the underlying evolutionary materialism and its fellow traveller ideologies. We see yet again the self-falsifying incoherence and amorality emerging. Dead end, futility. It seems we must think again. Based on the alternative, that moral government is rooted in objective truth, the truth of moral obligation. And we then follow that to where it leads, including to what sort of world properly grounds such. KFkairosfocus
May 29, 2016
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Seversky, I respond point by point: [...] >>KF: We may elaborate on Paul, Locke, Hooker and Aristotle, laying out several manifestly evident and historically widely acknowledged core moral principles for which the attempted denial is instantly and patently absurd for most people — that is, they are arguably self-evident moral truths. For instance:
Yes, there are core moral principles which have been recognized and asserted over the centuries but it is also arguable that is because they reflect basic human needs and interests that have been unchanged for millennia. We have observational evidence of the universality of those needs, which it would be absurd to deny, but there is no reason to think that the core moral principles which we have codified to protect those needs are anything other than rules our own creation.
1] The first self evident moral truth is that we are inescapably under the government of ought.
No, we observe that most, if not all, human societies develop rules to regulate how their members behave towards one another. They choose to be under "the government of ought" probably because it promotes social cohesion and security. If it is a truth, it is under the correspondence theory rather than a declaration of SET by fiat.
S: The first problem with this is the concept of self-evidence.>> 2 –> Self-evidence, per se is not a problem, truths that accurately describe relevant aspects of reality, that are seen on understanding to not be merely contingent but necessary, and necessary on pain of patent absurdity.
Truths describe, morals prescribe. They do not perform the same function, they are not the same thing.
3 –> Of course, one may reject a SET, but will be forced to cling to or deny blatantly or dismiss the absurdities.
We can also reject a claim of SET because it is neither self-evident nor true.
>> S: Observational data only becomes evidence in the context of an explanatory framework for which it arguably provides support. Without such an explanation it is not evidence for anything.>> 4 –> SETs are in many cases prior to specific observation, and an explanation promoting understanding does not undermine the self evident character as described.
I would argue that, if they are claims about the nature of objective reality, there can be no SETs prior to observation. How can you say that something is self-evidently true if you have no knowledge of the referent? 5 –> For instance, cf the three key laws of thought, I excerpt from 265 above: The laws of thought are true by definition within the formal system of logic but even they are arguably derived from observation of the natural world. We never observe a tomato to be a volcano at the same. That and other observations can be generalized into those principles.
>> S: For example, a smoking gun on its own is just that and nothing more. It is not evidence for anything save perhaps its own existence. Discovered in the hand of someone standing over the body of another who lies dead from a gunshot wound, however, it becomes evidence for the claim or proposition that the survivor shot the victim.>> 7 –> A smoking gun is a contingent circumstance, it is not a SET. This is a tangential discussion that sets up and tries to knock over a strawman.
No, it simply illustrates the point that data only becomes evidence in the context of an explanation. This is true of evidence in law or science. If you have a different definition, feel free to present it.
>>The second problem is that of truth.>> 8 –> The best understanding of which is, that which says of what is that it is, and of what is not that it is not, Ari Met 1011b. >> S: One of the most common concepts of truth is the correspondence theory in which a claim or proposition about some aspect of the observable world is held to be true to the extent that it can be observed to correspond to the aspect that it purports to describe or explain.>> 9 –> Another miss, you here convert a metaphysical definition on states of affairs and accurate reference to an epistemological challenge of observation. The two are every different in core sense. Many truths are about non-observables, abstract entities. And explanations are often empirically equivalent but very different.
There are statements that are true by definition and there are statements that are true to the extent that they correspond with what we can observe. What truths do you have in mind which do not fall into either of those categories?
>>S: The reason why both of the above are problems is that moral propositions are not descriptions or explanations about some aspect of the natural world.>> 10 –> The tangents and knocked over strawmen and changing of focus come home to roost.
In other words, you agree with what I wrote?
11 –> In addition, an equivocation, natural world here suggests material world equated to reality. That is enormously problematic in metaphysics and in addressing the nature of responsibly free and rational, morally governed beings.
I have called myself a materialist v2.0 which equates to the more modern concept of physicalism. The objective natural world is what we are able to observe around us and is both everything that is both us and everything that is not us. It is composed of what we describe as matter and energy which are essentially the same thing but in various different forms or phases. The nature of this matter/energy, its origins, how and why it behaves as it does are still not clearly understood. We don't know if there are other universes beyond this one or other domains of existence. All I can say is that I have yet to see any observations or arguments that would lead me to think that morality exists anywhere but in the subjective consciousness of beings such as ourselves.
12 –> The relevant sense of nature and laws of nature for moral government has to reckon with the force of responsible freedom and rationality, where evolutionary materialism self-falsifies and is inescapably amoral, it has no resources to cogently address reason and responsibility, it cannot bridge the IS-OUGHT gap.
Evolutionary materialism, like any other claim, is true to the extent we observe it corresponds to what it purports to describe and we do observe some correspondence. It is amoral because it does not - nor was ever intended - to address moral issues. It is a claim about what is not what ought to be and, as such, cannot be a foundation for any morality. We need to find other grounds for those.
>> [S:] They are prescriptions or injunctions or directives about how people should behave towards one another in society. They are not about ‘is’ but about ‘ought’. On that understanding, they are neither self-evident nor true nor false.>> 15 –> An attempt to impose a naturalistic view, which already fails at outset as above.
I write from a naturalistic perspective and argue that my position follows logically from my understanding of truth, evidence and morality. I have read nothing here that shows how it fails.
16 –> The basic problem here is it manifestly can be true — absent imposition of evolutionary materialism and/or fellow travellers — that, objectively, we OUGHT to do the just, fair, good, speak truth etc.
I agree that is how we ought to behave towards one another but I don't believe that such a view is - or even needs to be - founded on the assumption that morality has any objective existence.
[S:] If we are raised with a clear understanding of how others expect us to behave then failing to live up to those expectations can induce a sense of guilt about having let ourselves and others down. If that is all you mean by conscience then I would agree. >> 18 –> imposition of relativism, subjectivism and nominalism without resolving underlying worldview foundation issues.
How does that answer my point?
>> KF [note skipping over in the list]: 4] Fourth, we are objectively under obligation of OUGHT. That is, despite any particular person’s (or group’s or august council’s or majority’s) wishes or claims to the contrary, such obligation credibly holds to moral certainty. That is, it would be irresponsible, foolish and unwise for us to act and try to live otherwise. S: If by being “under obligation of OUGHT” you mean that human beings, when congregating in societies, tend to develop self-imposed rules of behavior which promote social cohesion then I would agree.>> 20 –> Attempted imposition of relativism, subjectivism, nominalism.
As above, dismissively reciting a list of "isms" does not offer a counter-argument.
>> [S:] The key phrase here, though, is “self-imposed”. They are adopted through a process of negotiation or inter-subjective agreement rather than being imposed by some mythical force or being from outside,>> 23 –> when we disagree and quarrel, there is a strong general pattern of appealing to an essentially universal sense of ought to be fair, just, truthful etc. This is a testimony to the objectivity, not oh we play might/manipulation make ‘right’ ‘truth’ etc and that’s the game.
That we share concepts of fairness and justice is not, of itself, sufficient reason to think that they exist anywhere other than in our consciousness, just that we appear to share the same subjective beliefs and experiences. For example, we have reason to believe that when human beings with normal color vision look at a red car they see a car that is red. Yet physics tells us that what is happening is that the paint on the car is reflecting light of certain very narrow band of wavelengths. The only thing that distinguishes that radiation from any other in the spectrum is the wavelength. The 'redness' we perceive is a property of our internal mental model of that world not the world itself. The curious thing is why we all perceive the same color and why is that color perception 'assigned' to those wavelengths of light. That aside, just like color, for a subjectivist, morality subsists in our mental model of the world, not the world itself.
25 –> The dismissive attempt to rule out the possibility that we are under moral government of manifestly evident core principles of natural moral law because we come from the inherently good creator God, a necessary and maximally great being, the root of reality worthy of our respect, loyalty and reasonable service of doing the good in accord with our evident nature is duly noted for what it is. Question begging and rhetorical intimidation.
Once again, simple questions: are you saying that you would not know right from wrong, good from evil, unless you had been told what they are by your God? Are you saying that you - and, by extension, the rest of us - are incapable of working these things out for ourselves?
>>[S:] although some may appeal to such a force or being as warrant for believing their particular morality is intrinsically superior to all others.>> 26 –> The projections begin.
I have made no claim for the superiority of my moral views. I am rejecting your claim for the superiority of yours on the grounds that they are in some way objective, that they are the final word of some supreme arbiter of moral issues and are, consequently, beyond question.
[S:] Yes, we set standards for ourselves which, being fallible creatures, we often fail to meet. That is an observation not a moral truth.>> 27 –> Of course, the fact of moral failure is a fact, not a SET.
We hold up always telling the truth as a moral imperative yet the evidence suggests that we all lie to a lesser or greater degree at some time in our lives. It is a fact, by any reasonable definition of the word, that we all fall short of achieving that ideal. Moral failure is a fact not an SET.
28 –> The repetition of imposition of relativism, subjectivism and nominalism, as well as the implied nihilism are noted. (Do you realise that in effect you and others of like ilk are trying to impose YOUR moral vision?)
I'm not trying to impose any particular morality. I'm denying the special claims for the supremacy of their particular moralities made by the followers of various faiths which, historically, some have sought to impose on the rest of us, by fire and sword where necessary.
>> [S:] Broadly speaking, law is understood as having two meanings: 1. the system of rules that a particular country or community recognizes as regulating the actions of its members and may enforce by the imposition of penalties. “they were taken to court for breaking the law” 2. a statement of fact, deduced from observation, to the effect that a particular natural or scientific phenomenon always occurs if certain conditions are present. “the second law of thermodynamics” So-called natural law is neither of these things.>> 30 –> You have simply omitted the historic, crucial usage as I exemplified from Blackstone, Locke and Hooker. Vastly much more can be given. 31 –> The natural moral law is in fact the underlying framework in which law, just government and reformation can proceed safely.
The ontological status of natural moral law is no more certain that that of The Force in Star Wars. It would be great if they existed but there is no evidence to suggest that they do. Hardly a sound foundation for law, just government, etc.
34 –> The tyranny of a majority or domineering mob in defiance of natural justice is a classic problem of democracy. That is why the US DoI starts from the laws of nature and of nature’s God, outlining several self evident core moral principles, THEN speaks to how government exists to uphold such justice, deriving its just powers from the consent of the governed.
I entirely agree that the "tyranny of the majority" can threaten the rights of minorities. I agree the US DoI is a model of how such a threat should be forestalled. But I also argue that just as criminal and civil law ultimately derives its authority and powers from the consent of the governed then so do moral laws.
[S:] Rights are privileges or entitlements granted by human societies to their eligible members. They do not exist outside that domain.>> 38 –> Jawol, mein fuehrer. (In short, this is a statement of nihilism and targeted disenfranchisement of the excluded, starting with right to LIFE.)
You allude to the Nazi Holocaust as an example of where a large minority of a population was not only disenfranchised, denied what we now recognize as a basic human rights and, ultimately, nearly exterminated. In reply, I will point once more to accounts from the Old Testament where the Israelites subjected whole populations to similar atrocities, apparently with the approval and on the authority of their God.
39 –> Thus lies inadvertently exposed the utter bankruptcy of the framework behind the ongoing abortion holocaust.
I agree that abortion should be ended on the grounds that the right to life should be extended to the unborn period of an individual human beings whole lifespan. But to do this in a democracy requires persuading a majority of the population and their elected representatives that this should be asserted in law.
>> [S:] A human being may be granted the right to life but other animals are not so privileged unless, at some point, human beings decide that they should be.>> 41 –> a man is apig is a rat is a worm. S has here been forced by his view to forfeit the recognisiton of the unique responsible freedom and rational capacity of the human being.
That does not follow. The point I was making is that rights are in the gift of human societies and granted to their members. I highlighted the claim by pointing out that we do not accord similar rights to animals of other species, not yet at least. Yes, I would agree we are responsible and rational beings, more so than the other creatures we share this planet with, but my answer to the Christian's dogma of human exceptionalism is a line from Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home where, at one point, the character of Dr Gillian Taylor, in response to comment from a colleague implying that whales are a lesser species says " I don't know about you, but my compassion for someone is not limited to my estimate of their intelligence."
>> [S:] Again, we might all agree that there are a set of rights that should be the basic entitlement of all human beings but that is our choice. It is not a self-evident moral truth.>> 42 –> Core rights are not entitlements, but instead binding moral expectations to be respected in certain pivotal ways: life, liberty, fulfillment of one’s sense of potential and destiny i/l/o one’s evident nature, etc.
They are presumed to apply to human beings but not other animals. They are human entitlements because human beings are entitled to them but not other creatures.
>> [KF:] 8] Eighth, like unto the seventh, such may only be circumscribed or limited for good cause. Such as, reciprocal obligation to cherish and not harm neighbour of equal, equally valuable nature in community and in the wider world of the common brotherhood of humanity. >> [S:] This is simply a corollary of the above. We can agree that it is a good way to behave on the grounds of empathy but it is not a self-evident moral truth.>> 44 –> I have argued on the premise of equality of worth thus reciprocity of duties, S tries to turn this into empathy, which is exactly what is missing in cases as I just again clipped. The absurdity becomes patent. So yes we here face a moral SET.
The fact that empathy has failed or been ignored on occasions is not an argument against it as grounds for morality. I would argue that it is one of the most important of our mental capacities. How many of the atrocities of the past would have been carried out if the perpetrators had been able to experience the sufferings of their victims in excruciating detail?
>> [KF:] 9] Ninth, this is the context in which it becomes self evidently wrong, wicked and evil to kidnap, sexually torture and murder a young child or the like as concrete cases in point that show that might and/or manipulation do not make ‘right,’ ‘truth,’ ‘worth,’ ‘justice,’ ‘fairness,’ ‘law’ etc. That is, anything that expresses or implies the nihilist’s credo is morally absurd. [S:] As human beings, we can all agree that the torture and murder of children is wrong just on the grounds of empathy. We understand the pain and suffering of the child and its family, we would not want our children or ourselves to experience such suffering and, by extension, we do not want others to experience it either.>> 45 –> Notice, the empathy gambit again, and the failure to address the point that the child is incapable of acting with strength or eloquence in its defence.
Are you saying that there something wrong with empathy? And if a child is "incapable of acting with strength or eloquence in its defence" what better protection could it have than that others could not bear the thought of the suffering it might undergo.
>> [S:] However, we can envisage an alien species that does not reproduce as we do or feel any attachment to its young. Perhaps, this culture of this species has developed a stoic credo, something like the Vulcans in Star Trek, which denies or lacks human emotions. They might look on the torture and killing of a human child as a curiosity of human behavior but nothing more. They would not see a self-evident moral truth.>> 46 –> The sci fi scenario pivots on dismissing responsible rational freedom.
Not at all. They would just be reasoning from a different set of premises.
12] Twelfth, the attempt to deny or dismiss such a general framework of moral governance invariably lands in shipwreck of incoherence and absurdity. But that does not mean that the attempt is not going to be made, so there is a mutual obligation of frank and fair correction and restraint of evil.
It is not moral governance that is being rejected, only the special pleading for your particular version of it.
[S:] Again, in a democratic society the government derives its legitimacy and authority from being the embodiment and enactment of the will of the people. It needs no more nor should it claim more.>> 47 –> repeats the error that was already corrected.
So you're saying that in a democratic society the government does not derive its authority from the consent of the governed?
>> [S:] There should be no appeal to some sort of warrant deriving from divine authority or natural law because they are not necessary and are susceptible to corruption. Once again, we have decided that this is what is best for us on the grounds of our communal interests. That we can agree on it does not make it a self-evident moral truth.>> 50 –> More repetition, the correctives are above already.
I couldn't have put it better myself.Seversky
May 28, 2016
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Q: Is not a compass a sign of a magnetic field, a mechanism of orientation with a North-seeking pole that detects and aligns with the field, and thus of a North pole to which it points? (Where, there is an associated discipline of mapping, including of the local declination of compasses relative to true North. And at night Polaris . . . which one has to learn how to find . . . gives a reasonably good index of the north celestial pole and of the latitude one is at.)kairosfocus
May 28, 2016
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CF, I follow up, using 325 for convenience: >>KF: “2] Second self evident truth, we discern that some things are right and others are wrong by a compass-sense we term conscience which guides our thought. “ CF: I agree that it is evident that most of us have a conscience. But that does not mean that the morality that our conscience acts on is objective. Guilt is not a sign of objectivity. It is a sign that we feel that we are doing something that runs counter to one of our moral values. Moral values that can easily be explained by subjectivity. Before the 60s and 70s, many white people in the south would feel guilt at dating a black person.>> 35 --> Conscience is a compass needle, it points to the fact of moral governance, and though it can sometimes go wrong, it is in that regard no different from sight, hearing, touch or taste. 36 --> What is self evident is that this sense exists and it points, guiding thoughts, attitudes, feelings, behaviours. 37 --> It would be passing strange were we to have a sense that had no proper object, so it serves only to delude and manipulate. >> KF: “3] Third, were this sense of conscience and linked sense that we can make responsibly free, rational decisions to be a delusion, we would at once descend into a status of grand delusion in which there is no good ground for confidence in our self-understanding. “ CF: Could you repeat this in English. Are you suggesting that if anything that is subjective is the result of delusion? If that is the case, then you are simply wrong. If I have misinterpreted what you are trying to say, please clarify.>> 38 --> The English is there and it is clear enough. We sense ourselves to be guided by conscience, and we experience ourselves in that context as responsibly free. Were these a delusion, this would taint our whole inner life, as was already discussed and linked onwards. >> KF: “4] Fourth, we are objectively under obligation of OUGHT. That is, despite any particular person’s (or group’s or august council’s or majority’s) wishes or claims to the contrary, such obligation credibly holds to moral certainty. That is, it would be irresponsible, foolish and unwise for us to act and try to live otherwise.” CF: Yes, we act according to our established moral values. We both agree on this. We disagree on whether these moral values are objective. You have still not provided any rationale as to why these moral values must be objective.>> 39 --> The point here is that morality is an in common, rationally accessible matter, which holds to such a degree of certainty that ignoring or recklessly manipulating it is dubious behaviour. 40 --> Many good reasons for objectivity have been laid out, not least the one already just outlined, that to assign major intellectual faculties to delusion is self defeating for the life of the mind. In short your position boils down to embracing the undermining of rationality. >>KF: “5] Fifth, this cumulative framework of moral government under OUGHT is the basis for the manifest core principles of the natural moral law under which we find ourselves obligated to the right the good, the true etc. Where also, patently, we struggle to live up to what we acknowledge or imply we ought to do . . . [ETC]” CF: Natural moral law is a philosophical and religious construct. This does not make it an actual law. But rather than using old dead philosophers to try to defend your case, why don’t you use your own words and do something as simple as explain why objective morality is fact when societal moral values vary dramatically from one culture to another, and within the same culture over time. If we are so objectively under obligation of OUGHT, and if objective morality is necessary for this, why is/was it possible for civilizations to have such vastly different moral values? Are they all deluding themselves and the only one with the absolute certainty of what these objective values are is you?Or is it more likely that the moral assemblage in any society is the result of indoctrination, instinct, learning, experience, rational thought, the ability to predict the outcome of actions, etc.?>> 41 --> In fact, we do not tell the truth by the clock or by the fashions of the day. The old dead philosophers may well be manifestly right, and today's fashionable opinion leaders wrong. 42 --> In turn phil is the foundational intellectual discipline, which deals with the met issues for other disciplines in addition to general issues of the life of the mind. This makes it actually even more important than those disciplines on foundational matters. 43 --> Your dismissal of the natural moral law amounts to little more than you do not like the terms. 44 --> A classic statement of a case is often one of the best statements we can find, often reflecting generations of thought by minds at the top of our civilisation. The case is not oh blindly kowtow to these, but these have made a case that should be considered carefully. 45 --> The upshot of all this is, the rejection of objectivity of core morality comes at a stiff price for our whole life as responsible and rational beings, but the import of objective laws of our nature is such that many will cling to what can be shown absurd as they will not willingly accept that being under law suggests a Lawgiver, God. 46 --> Nor am I the only one to have noticed such. KFkairosfocus
May 27, 2016
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Clown "But since everyone acts in this fashion, and everyone’s morals are different, they can’t be objective." You keep saying this as if you repeat it enough times it becomes a valid argument. This objection in all its many forms has been addressed, obviously not to your satisfaction .What you have not done is defend the position itself. See 335 Also here WJM " simply because people have different views about what the truth about morality is doesn’t logically necessitate that morality itself is subective in nature." To repeat over and over again ,in one form or another, the same objection without telling us why this is a valid objection is sort of pointless don't you think? Vividvividbleau
May 27, 2016
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WJM: It is a testament to the paucity of arguments against objective morality that its detractors should continue to cling to one so soundly refuted some 70 posts back.Phinehas
May 27, 2016
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CF, fail. An initial explanation on how grand delusion is let loose leading to absurdity of relativism, subjectivism and nominalism are already given above [Cf here for more] -- I trust you are digesting instead of dismissing. Gotta go for now. KFkairosfocus
May 27, 2016
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CF explains how "it's a fact" that history has proceeded as if morality is subjective in nature:
It’s simple. We all think that our morals are the right ones and that everyone should comply with them. They are deeply entrenched in our minds. As such, we act as if they were objective. But since everyone acts in this fashion, and everyone’s morals are different, they can’t be objective. In short, our feeling that they are objective is a delusion.
Well, CF, your "case" is fatally flawed on several fronts, but we'll just focus on something already pointed out and is painfully obvious: simply because people have different views about what the truth about morality is doesn't logically necessitate that morality itself is subective in nature. Different cultures have believed all sorts of things about physically objective causes, commodities and effects; just because they believe(d) differently about what the truth of those things is (like whether the sun revolved around the earth or vice versa, or that a god pulled the sun through the sky on a chariot, or that there were four basic elements that comprised the whole world, or that the world was a few thousand, or a few hundred thousand, or a few million, or a few billion years old, or how illness was spread, or what caused the weather etc., etc.) does not logically dictate that (1) those things are subjective in nature, or that (2) the actual history of the world proceeded in a fashion corresponding to the idea that those things were subjective in nature. Let's replace morality with some objectively-existent commodity in CF's answer and rephrase just a bit to clear up his confusion wrt epistemology and ontology: "It’s simple. We all think that our view of how humans came to be is the right one and that everyone should agree with that view. These views are deeply entrenched in our minds. As such, we act as if those views are objectively true. But since everyone acts in this fashion, and everyone’s idea of how humans came to be is different (various cultures past and present), such ideas can’t actually be about something that is an objective fact. In short, our feeling that there is an objective fact about how humans came to exist is a delusion." I think what is going on here is that CF deeply believes that it is an objective fact that morality is a subjective commodity and is so entrenched in that assumption that he cannot imagine the history of the world progressing in a way that doesn't correspond to that "actual fact". IOW, the idea of subjective morality is so entrenched in CF's mind that he myopically insists that the history of human interaction must have proceeded according to that objective fact (how could it do otherwise?), even though CF simultaneously agrees that humans actually behave as if morality is objective in nature. His "evidence" that history proceeded accordingly could be used to make the same case about all sorts of objective commodities.William J Murray
May 27, 2016
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Kairosfocus: "As for letting grand delusion loose on our inner life, that is patent absurdity. KF" I agree. That is why I keep arguing that there is no objective morality. Why keep deluding yourself when the evidence is there for all to see?clown fish
May 27, 2016
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CF, no. There is such a thing as moral reasoning, there is such a thing as moral learning, there is such a thing as moral growth (which implies moral error can be corrected) and not by might and manipulation make 'right' etc. Nihilism is its own refutation. As for letting grand delusion loose on our inner life, that is patent absurdity. KFkairosfocus
May 27, 2016
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