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Subjectivists Need to Check Their Moral Privilege

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Many of our interlocutors here often complain about the lengthy comments KF often posts which frame the necessity of a cohesive and coherent worldview when it comes to moral views and arguments. With others, their arguments often hinge around the insistence that either morals simply are not objective in nature, or that there is no way to tell. Even when the logic shows how subjective morality fails to provide a sound basis for behavior or argument, and fails to differentiate any moral view from another, their mantra seems to be a big “so what?”

IOW, so what if their worldview is rationally inconsistent with their behavior? So what if ultimately subjective morality endorses any and all behavior as moral equivalents? That’s not how most people actually behave, they counter, so worrying about worse-case scenarios derived from subjective morality is a groundless concern, especially since believing in objective morality doesn’t appear to make people behave better. Most people, they argue, have similar enough conscience and empathy and other feelings so that if they just adhere to those, we can have a generally-agreed upon and workable moral system without worrying about whether or not it is objectively true.

One problem with this line of thought – especially for those who grew up in western countries – is that it fails to recognize how a “similar-enough” set of personal feelings about others in society has developed within the framework of a virtually universal belief in certain moral absolutes (inviolable rights). Moral relativists take for granted the impact of hundreds of years of post-Enlightement Christian moral objectivism upon our culture and society when they appeal to feelings baked into culture from hundreds of years of enlightened Christianity as their basis of morality.

IOW, their moral views and feelings (even those that superficially appear to contradict some formal Christian “sins”) are the very product of a culture based on and inextricably steeped in post-enlightenment Christian moral objectivism. Their moral relativism is a privileged position sitting atop, relying upon and operating through the very thing it says does not exist.

Even when the Western moral relativist mistakenly argues for an end to discrimination against transgenders, they are taking for granted that “discrimination” against a minority is “a bad thing” that “most people” would automatically “feel bad” about. They are using an Christian Enlightenment-generated set of moral absolutes entrenched in the citizenry to make an emotional case against what they mistakenly frame as “discrimination”, when anti-discrimination as a good thing itself is not something a relativist would probably have access to use outside of Western Christian Enlightenment. Just look around the world to find that out.

Yeah, it’s real easy to point at empathy and feelings when you can rely on most people around you to share similar feelings. Looking outside of the enlightened, western-civilization box, this isn’t something we find to be a universally-shared moral feeling, even if the precept of moral equality is one you can find from sages of all times and from all locations around the world. Around the world you have entire cultures that have no problem at all seeing women and children as inferior objects to be used and abused, seeing other tribes and cultures as something to be exterminated, beheading gays and mutilating people for small legal infractions. They have zero expectation of any moral equality or rights.

The Western objective-morality idea of an objective, god-given inviolable right to liberty and self-determination set the table for today’s western, post-modern moral relativists; how convenient for them when they offer up a big fat “so what” in arguments showing the logical soundness of objective morality and the principles that came from the Enlightenment. They don’t have to account for their moral perspective and tender sensibilities as long as they ignore where they are drawing them from and what has protected their feelings from the brutality of other social mores in other other places in the world.

Moral subjectivists need to check their moral privilege. If they’re going to dismiss the enlightened Christian natural law objective morality basis, they have no right to take for granted the “feelings” and “conscience” and “empathy” it has generated for them to rely on in their arguments supporting moral relativism.  Every time they claim someone has a right or that they should have some liberty, they are intellectually freeloading on hundreds of years of moral objectivism and enlightened Christian views permeating the society they grew up in.

Comments
Clown Goodnight. Vividvividbleau
May 30, 2016
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Vividbleu and zeroseven, I would love to continue this interesting discussion, but you must live in a different time zone. I must get to bed. I have to work in the morning.clown fish
May 30, 2016
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Zeroseven "Sorry Vivid, I am not sure what you’re driving at. You are saying that if there really are objective morals, when I think I am forming my moral positions subjectively, I am wrong?" No what I am saying is we have two opposite positions 1) morals are objective 2) morals are subjective. Irrespective of our positions one of those positions are true and one is not. One accurately corresponds to the way things are factually and one does not. Vividvividbleau
May 30, 2016
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Vividbleu, as a follow up, I think that there are many things that are true. That humans have moral values is true. That we have a conscience that is affected by our moral values is true. But I don't think that we can say that they are self evident truths. I think that we require experience and observation to draw these conclusions. The same with moral values. Our intuition tells us that they are objective. But our intuition also tells us that the earth is flat and that the sun and stars revolve around it. It is our observations and critical thinking that suggest otherwise.clown fish
May 30, 2016
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Sorry Vivid, I am not sure what you're driving at. You are saying that if there really are objective morals, when I think I am forming my moral positions subjectively, I am wrong? If that's what you are saying I'm not sure if I agree. It's possible some people can access the moral code and some can't, and therefore those that can't have to form morals subjectively. I think WJM may believe something like this. But the point I have been making is that if even if there really are objective morals, no one seems to have any idea about how to access or discover them. And therefore this objective moral code is irrelevant as no one ever knows what it is and just has to make guesses about what it might be.zeroseven
May 30, 2016
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Vividbleu: "Thanks at least we can agree on at least one thing." I suspect that we agree on many things. For example, even though we disagree on objective morality and evolution, I think that we respect each other's opinions (sometimes grudgingly). Unfortunately, there are a few here who view people with differing opinions as the enemy. Frankly, I think they are sad individuals who deserve our pity.clown fish
May 30, 2016
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Clown Thanks at least we can agree on at least one thing. The reason I asked Zeroseven is because if we cannot agree that something is true, regardless of what either one of us think is true, then what's the point? Vividvividbleau
May 30, 2016
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OK Vivid. Fair enough. I don't think that morals can be objective and subjective at the same time.clown fish
May 30, 2016
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Clown "Vivid, please don’t try to play those stupid logical traps that KairosFocus uses rather than trying to have an honest discussion. You are much better than that, and than KairosFocus." Clown I am not setting a trap nor is my intent a gotcha question. "Why don’t you simply ask me the question that you want to ask me? " I did and you think I'm trapping you. Vividvividbleau
May 30, 2016
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Hi Vivid, I'm not much of a logician. Just give your practical example and we can explore it.zeroseven
May 30, 2016
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Vividbleu: "To put it another way it is impossible for A to be A and non A at the same time in the same relationship, agree?" Vivid, please don't try to play those stupid logical traps that KairosFocus uses rather than trying to have an honest discussion. You are much better than that, and than KairosFocus. We both admit that we could be wrong. But we also both know that right and wrong is not always as black and white as people like Kairosfocus would like to believe. Why don't you simply ask me the question that you want to ask me? You know that I have always tried to put up a good argument, but you also know that I have never tried to lead you on with loaded questions.clown fish
May 30, 2016
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Clown Yes you have always admitted you may be wrong what I am asking is agreement that it is impossible that both of us could be right, there is no possibility that one of us is not wrong. To put it another way it is impossible for A to be A and non A at the same time in the same relationship, agree? Vividvividbleau
May 30, 2016
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Vividbleu: "Is that an absolute “may be” ? " Of course. Have I not always admitted that I may be wrong? Unlike a certain person named Mullings that we both know? Anybody who doesn't admit that they may be wrong is an absolute moron.clown fish
May 30, 2016
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Kairosfocus: "CF, see what happens to the coherence of the community as the current agendas take over. Then remember that you were warned. KF Fine. I can live with it. Actually, I welcome it. Because your warnings are pure scare mongering hyperbole. You have to stop being a "glass half empty" sort of guy. Infant mortality has been decreasing for decades. Vaccines have eliminated many horrendous diseases. Standard of living have increase for decades. Girls now have a much better chance of success than they ever had (unless you classify success as baby making machines). Violent crimes have been decreasing for decades. Water and air quality has been improving for decades. Tolerance of homosexuals and transgendered has dramatically increased (oops, I forgot. That is not an improvement in your mind).clown fish
May 30, 2016
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Zeroseven
StephenB: Right, I would agree with that. And as there is always another way for society to defend itself from murderers (unless they stop building jails), and as the death penalty is ineffective in preventing murder in any case, then we have to conclude it is never justified.
In these days, at least, with penal systems well established, there is really no way to justify the death penalty. However, we must keep in mind that this form of punishment is not intrinsically evil, which is the same as saying that it is not always unjustified. Whether it is a deterrent or not seems to depend on how swiftly and how faithfully the sentence is carried out. In any case, capital punishment is conditionally evil, that is, it is evil when the conditions that could justify it are not present. Murder, on the other hand, is intrinsically evil. It can never be justified, regardless of conditions. Killing, on the other hand, is not intrinsically evil; there are circumstances under which it can be morally justified, as when a soldier slays someone on the battlefront, or when an individual must kill an aggressor in order to save his own life.StephenB
May 30, 2016
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Clown "I would agree that one of us may be absolutely wrong ..." Is that an absolute "may be" ? To say may be absolutely wrong is to say " might be" which was not my question. Vividvividbleau
May 30, 2016
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CF, see what happens to the coherence of the community as the current agendas take over. Then remember that you were warned. KFkairosfocus
May 30, 2016
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Vividbleu: "Obviously we disagree here. Before I give a practical example I need to know if I take the other side of this point that you agree one of us is absolutely wrong?" Obviously, 07 will answer for him/her self, but I thought that I would put my two nickels in here (we no longer have pennies). I would agree that one of us may be absolutely wrong on the more universal moral values (eg. Killing, stealing), but there are enough real examples where this has been condoned (glorified) to call this into question. But it is in the less obvious "objective moral values" (eg., homosexuality, sex before marriage, same sex marriage,) where the debate will get heated.clown fish
May 30, 2016
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Zeroseven "Vivid, I think the point is that there is no practical difference between an objective moral code that is not written down anywhere and just has to be guessed at, and a subjective morality." Obviously we disagree here. Before I give a practical example I need to know if I take the other side of this point that you agree one of us is absolutely wrong? That is another way of asking do you agree that A can never be non A at the same time and in the same relationship? Vividvividbleau
May 30, 2016
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KairosFocus: "07 & CF, the death penalty (though something we may object to on other grounds) is not in any reasonable sense murder, and the attempt to equate the two is quite telling." The fact that two atheists are trying to convince a Christian that the death penalty is murder is even more telling. Two subjective, atheist, nominalistic, evolutionist, Darwinists explaining to a devout Christian that killing is wrong. Am I the only one who sees the irony in this?clown fish
May 30, 2016
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07, you are implicitly assuming current circumstances in societies that are historically exceptionally well off and are the heirs of centuries of the judaeo-christian moral heritage -- which they increasingly despise. I am not convinced these conditions are sustainable in even the most advanced societies. And several boatloads of dead pirates will never raid another village again . . . where, such villages could in no wise sustain a system of incarceration; other would be raiders will get the message. (Go read the history of the Viking era.) KFkairosfocus
May 30, 2016
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StephenB: Right, I would agree with that. And as there is always another way for society to defend itself from murderers (unless they stop building jails), and as the death penalty is ineffective in preventing murder in any case, then we have to conclude it is never justified.zeroseven
May 30, 2016
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zeroseven
Another good example is the death penalty. By your standard it is morally wrong because its a form of murder. I would happen to agree with that. But many don’t. How do we find out what the objective position is?
Even though moral principles never change, their application can change over time, just as our understanding can become increasingly fine tuned. Justification of the death penalty, for example, is based primarily on the principle of self defense, which of course, is not murder. If society has no other way of defending itself from murderers except to execute them, then the death penalty is justifiable under those circumstances. If society has other means to protect itself, then it would be much harder to justify.StephenB
May 30, 2016
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CF, I was a sixth former when I wrote an essay on the subject, the murderer and the victim are the same. I have already pointed to wider consequences of undermining value of and right to life. Ignorance of relevant issues, history and dynamics is going to come back to haunt our civilisation bigtime. KFkairosfocus
May 30, 2016
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KF, so do you agree with StephenB that suicide is a form of murder?zeroseven
May 30, 2016
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07 & CF, the death penalty (though something we may object to on other grounds) is not in any reasonable sense murder, and the attempt to equate the two is quite telling. Judicial murder is possible, but such is by abuse of law, a very different matter. The list of fashionable lawfare initiatives that will come back to haunt our civilisation speaks volumes about sliding faster and faster down the slippery slope. It's not the slide that is normally the big problem it is the hard hit at rock bottom. KFkairosfocus
May 30, 2016
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Clown Fish StephenB: “Let’s take your example: Thou Shalt Not Murder. Apply reason: Thou Shalt Not Also Murder Thyself. Therefore, suicide is wrong. What is so difficult about that?”
Thank you for admitting that your argument for objective morality is religiously based. It is very refreshing to see this on This site.
As usual, you are very confused. As I pointed out, the Ten Commandments are simply the explicit manifestation of what was already known as the Tao, which is the natural moral law. Also, not everything in the Bible is a religious argument. There are plenty of philosophical and ethical arguments that stand on their own.StephenB
May 30, 2016
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KairosFocus: "notice the matches you are playing with:" Yes. I live in a country where there is absolutely no restrictions on abortion. Where same sex marriage has been legal for over a decade. Where the most Conservative party in our country is now endorsing SSM. Where Doctor assisted suicide will be the law of the land. Where the last bank failure occurred before the 1929 depression. Yet, we continue to be at or near the top of the list for any rating of best countries to live in. That must really hurt.clown fish
May 30, 2016
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Another good example is the death penalty. By your standard it is morally wrong because its a form of murder. I would happen to agree with that. But many don't. How do we find out what the objective position is?zeroseven
May 30, 2016
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07, the list of principles that are held self evident that I provided in answer to your rhetorical demand:
>> normally responsive people will at least grudgingly respect the following summary of such core, conscience attested morality from the pen of Paul:
Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them . . . . Rom 13:8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong [NIV, "harm"] to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. [ESV]
Where, John Locke, in grounding modern liberty and what would become democratic self-government of a free people premised on upholding the civil peace of justice, in Ch 2 Sec. 5 of his second treatise on civil Government [c. 1690] cites "the judicious [Anglican canon, Richard] Hooker" from his classic Ecclesiastical Polity of 1594 on, as he explains how the principles of neighbour-love are inscribed in our hearts, becoming evident to the eye of common good sense and reasonableness:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man's hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8 and alluding to Justinian's synthesis of Roman Law in Corpus Juris Civilis that also brings these same thoughts to bear:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [Eccl. Polity,preface, Bk I, "ch." 8, p.80, cf. here. Emphasis added.]
We may elaborate on Paul, Locke, Hooker and Aristotle, laying out several manifestly evident and historically widely acknowledged core moral principles for which the attempted denial is instantly and patently absurd for most people -- that is, they are arguably self-evident moral truths. For instance: 1] The first self evident moral truth is that we are inescapably under the government of ought. (This is manifest in even an objector's implication in the questions, challenges and arguments that s/he would advance, that we are in the wrong and there is something to be avoided about that. That is, even the objector inadvertently implies that we OUGHT to do, think, aim for and say the right. Not even the hyperskeptical objector can escape this truth. Patent absurdity on attempted denial.) 2] Second self evident truth, we discern that some things are right and others are wrong by a compass-sense we term conscience which guides our thought. (Again, objectors depend on a sense of guilt/ urgency to be right not wrong on our part to give their points persuasive force. See what would be undermined should conscience be deadened or dismissed universally? Sawing off the branch on which we all must sit.) 3] Third, were this sense of conscience and linked sense that we can make responsibly free, rational decisions to be a delusion, we would at once descend into a status of grand delusion in which there is no good ground for confidence in our self-understanding. That is, we look at an infinite regress of Plato’s cave worlds: once such a principle of grand global delusion is injected, there is no firewall so the perception of level one delusion is subject to the same issue, and this level two perception too, ad infinitum; landing in patent absurdity. 4] Fourth, we are objectively under obligation of OUGHT. That is, despite any particular person’s (or group’s or august council’s or majority’s) wishes or claims to the contrary, such obligation credibly holds to moral certainty. That is, it would be irresponsible, foolish and unwise for us to act and try to live otherwise. 5] Fifth, this cumulative framework of moral government under OUGHT is the basis for the manifest core principles of the natural moral law under which we find ourselves obligated to the right the good, the true etc. Where also, patently, we struggle to live up to what we acknowledge or imply we ought to do. 6] Sixth, this means we live in a world in which being under core, generally understood principles of natural moral law is coherent and factually adequate, thus calling for a world in which OUGHT is properly grounded at root level. (Thus worldviews that can soundly meet this test are the only truly viable ones. if a worldview does not have in it a world-root level IS that can simultaneously ground OUGHT, it fails decisively.*) 7] Seventh, in light of the above, even the weakest and most voiceless of us thus has a natural right to life, liberty, the pursuit of fulfillment of one’s sense of what s/he ought to be (“happiness”). This includes the young child, the unborn and more. (We see here the concept that rights are binding moral expectations of others to provide respect in regards to us because of our inherent status as human beings, members of the community of valuable neighbours. Where also who is my neighbour was forever answered by the parable of the Good Samaritan. Likewise, there can be no right to demand of or compel my neighbour that s/he upholds me and enables me in the wrong — including under false colour of law through lawfare. To justly claim a right, one must first be in the right.) 8] Eighth, like unto the seventh, such may only be circumscribed or limited for good cause. Such as, reciprocal obligation to cherish and not harm neighbour of equal, equally valuable nature in community and in the wider world of the common brotherhood of humanity. 9] Ninth, this is the context in which it becomes self evidently wrong, wicked and evil to kidnap, sexually torture and murder a young child or the like as concrete cases in point that show that might and/or manipulation do not make ‘right,’ ‘truth,’ ‘worth,’ ‘justice,’ ‘fairness,’ ‘law’ etc. That is, anything that expresses or implies the nihilist’s credo is morally absurd. 10] Tenth, this entails that in civil society with government, justice is a principal task of legitimate government. Thus also, 11] Eleventh, that government is and ought to be subject to audit, reformation and if necessary replacement should it fail sufficiently badly and incorrigibly. 12] Twelfth, the attempt to deny or dismiss such a general framework of moral governance invariably lands in shipwreck of incoherence and absurdity. But that does not mean that the attempt is not going to be made, so there is a mutual obligation of frank and fair correction and restraint of evil. _________________ * F/N: After centuries of debates and assessment of alternatives per comparative difficulties, there is in fact just one serious candidate to be such a grounding IS: the inherently good creator God, a necessary and maximally great being worthy of ultimate loyalty and the reasonable responsible service of doing the good in accord with our manifestly evident nature. (And instantly, such generic ethical theism answers also to the accusation oh this is “religion”; that term being used as a dirty word — no, this is philosophy. If you doubt this, simply put forth a different candidate that meets the required criteria and passes the comparative difficulties test: _________ . Likewise, an inherently good, maximally great being will not be arbitrary or deceitful etc, that is why such is fully worthy of ultimate loyalty and the reasonable, responsible service of doing the good in accord with our manifestly evident nature. As a serious candidate necessary being, such would be eternal and embedded in the frame for a world to exist at all. Thus such a candidate is either impossible as a square circle is impossible due to mutual ruin of core characteristics, or else it is actual. For simple instance no world is possible without two-ness in it, a necessary basis for distinct identity inter alia.>> _________________ It is clear that there is no cogent relativist response to the objectivity or the grounding of moral governance. Indeed, it looks a lot like animosity motivates attempts to undermine what they do not like, while trying to manipulate then through lawfare to usurp the sword of justice and impose will to power. Long, grim history paid for in blood and tears serves as a warning, if we will heed it,
Many objective truths are not self evident nor is this list exhaustive. But this list lays out a material core relevant to sound community life. Things that on current track are going to come back to haunt our civilisation as it knocks out the supports that have stabilised democracy, preventing it from its strong tendency to either race off into mob rule and chaos snapping back to the demand for safety and order or else to directly decline into manipulated oligarchy. KF PS: Right to life, thus thou shalt not murder (a historic reference to common law foundations BTW and to the great principle of civil law) IMPLIES including thyself, but though objective it is not in itself self evident; esp given clouding issues liable to come up. Your attempt to wedge SB and KF apart rhetorically fails. Ditto for tag and dismiss as "religious" with the typical overtones present in such a reference.kairosfocus
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