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Science and Miracles

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“Disagreement is not an easy thing to reach.  Rather, we move into confusion.”  John Courtney Murray

 

My “Mirror” post has generated quite a few comments concerning “miracles” and the relevance of “miracles” to ID.  Further thoughts are in order.

First, let us define terms.  My dictionary defines “miracle” as “an event that is contrary to the established laws of nature and attributed to a supernatural cause.”

Second, ID does not posit miracles.  In this post I established the following contest: “UD hereby offers a $1,000 prize to anyone who is able to demonstrate that the design of a living thing by an intelligent agent necessarily requires a supernatural act (i.e., the suspension of the laws of nature).”  The prize has gone unclaimed.  It should be clear by now that ID is a theory about the detection of patterns that point to design.  ID is agnostic about the nature of the designer.

Conclusion:  However one comes out on the question of whether science may take account of miracles, the question is a sideshow vis-à-vis ID, because ID does not posit that a miracle is necessary to create one of the “patterns that point to design” that are described by the theory.

Third, plainly scientists may take account of miracles.  If Jesus were to appear today and divide a few loaves and fishes to feed thousands and a scientist were to observe that event, the scientist would not be bound by naturalistic explanations.  He would be perfectly entitled to conclude the event constituted a miracle. 

Would such an explanation be a scientific explanation?  Well, in one sense it does not matter whether we append “scientific” to the explanation, because whatever category we place the explanation in, it remains the fact that it is the best explanation for the data.  I would suggest, however, that it is perfectly valid to call the explanation a “scientific” explanation.  Science is the process of forming hypotheses and testing them.  Here the investigator has a null hypothesis that it is not possible to divide a few loaves and fishes such that they can feed several thousand people with several baskets of leftovers.  He compares the data with the hypothesis and finds the hypothesis falsified.  At this point the scientist can either throw up his hands or posit an alternative hypothesis:  The laws of nature have been suspended, i.e., a miracle has occurred.  He can then compare the data to his alternative hypothesis and find that it has been confirmed.

Some read my comments in the “Mirror” thread and concluded that I believe science cannot take account of miracles.  I never said this.  In fact, I said exactly the opposite when I wrote the following in response to one of Mr. Murray’s comments: “Certainly a scientist can “take account” of a miracle in the sense of saying “this is beyond the ken of known natural causes” with respect to any given event.  A scientific theory cannot, however, be predicated on the occurrence of miracles, because they are, by definition, unpredictable. That was all I was saying. It is illustrated nicely by the following:  http://www.sciencecartoonsplus.com/pages/gallery.php “

Comments
"If a natural law is simply an observed regularity, then it isn’t immutable; its predictability is just based on an observed pattern of regularity which it may or may not meet. Nothing is 100% predictable" That is exactly correct. It is a point I expanded upon in this post: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/gravity-in-elfland/ "many things that are ostensibly products of natural law acting on matter can only be described stochastically – within a range of potential outcomes" That is correct too, but it does not change the conclusion. Dr. Liddle is correct in her comment at 7.2 and 7.2.1.2 about probability distributions (I do not endorse her comments about prayer, which I see as fundamentally misguided). "So, if I am able to predict my grandson’s behavior 85% of the time (within a narrow stochastic range), does that mean that my son’s choices must be caused by natural law?" No, it means your grandson's behavior can be modeled in a statistically significant way, which is what behavioral scientists do every day. For example, I can tell you with over 75% confidence whether you will vote Republican or Democrat if I know whether your family says grace at dinner. Barry Arrington
October 17, 2011
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If a miracle is an event that is contrary to the established laws of nature, the origin of the universe is, by definition, a miracle, since the established laws of nature did not exist "before" nature (time included) came into existence. The birth of the universe is therefore a miracle by definition, and on the grandest scale imaginable. This is simple reason and logic. How can this not be obvious?GilDodgen
October 17, 2011
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Indeed, a natural law is simply an observed regularity. Agents act or not as they will. As I have explained, one cannot build a scientific theory which presupposes the immutable actions of agents. You just can’t count on those angels.
If a natural law is simply an observed regularity, then it isn't immutable; its predictability is just based on an observed pattern of regularity which it may or may not meet. Nothing is 100% predictable (quantum uncertainty), and many things that are ostensibly products of natural law acting on matter can only be described stochastically - within a range of potential outcomes. So, if I am able to predict my grandson's behavior 85% of the time (within a narrow stochastic range), does that mean that my son's choices must be caused by natural law?William J Murray
October 17, 2011
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notes: Where's the evidence for Darwinism?
Many of these researchers also raise the question (among others), why — even after inducing literally billions of induced mutations and (further) chromosome rearrangements — all the important mutation breeding programs have come to an end in the Western World instead of eliciting a revolution in plant breeding, either by successive rounds of selective “micromutations” (cumulative selection in the sense of the modern synthesis), or by “larger mutations” … and why the law of recurrent variation is endlessly corroborated by the almost infinite repetition of the spectra of mutant phenotypes in each and any new extensive mutagenesis experiment (as predicted) instead of regularly producing a range of new systematic species… (Wolf-Ekkehard Lönnig, “Mutagenesis in Physalis pubescens L. ssp. floridana: Some Further Research on Dollo’s Law and the Law of Recurrent Variation,” Floriculture and Ornamental Biotechnology Vol. 4 (Special Issue 1): 1-21 (December 2010).) http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/12/peer-reviewed_research_paper_o042191.html
Four decades worth of lab work is surveyed here:
“The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain – Michael Behe – December 2010 Excerpt: In its most recent issue The Quarterly Review of Biology has published a review by myself of laboratory evolution experiments of microbes going back four decades.,,, The gist of the paper is that so far the overwhelming number of adaptive (that is, helpful) mutations seen in laboratory evolution experiments are either loss or modification of function. Of course we had already known that the great majority of mutations that have a visible effect on an organism are deleterious. Now, surprisingly, it seems that even the great majority of helpful mutations degrade the genome to a greater or lesser extent.,,, I dub it “The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain. http://behe.uncommondescent.com/2010/12/the-first-rule-of-adaptive-evolution/
Michael Behe talks about the preceding paper in this following podcast:
Michael Behe: Challenging Darwin, One Peer-Reviewed Paper at a Time – December 2010 http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/player/web/2010-12-23T11_53_46-08_00
How about the oft cited example for neo-Darwinism of antibiotic resistance?
List Of Degraded Molecular Abilities Of Antibiotic Resistant Bacteria: Excerpt: Resistance to antibiotics and other antimicrobials is often claimed to be a clear demonstration of “evolution in a Petri dish.” ,,, all known examples of antibiotic resistance via mutation are inconsistent with the genetic requirements of evolution. These mutations result in the loss of pre-existing cellular systems/activities, such as porins and other transport systems, regulatory systems, enzyme activity, and protein binding. http://www.trueorigin.org/bacteria01.asp
That doesn't seem to be helping! How about we look really, really, close at very sensitive growth rates and see if we can catch almighty evolution in action???
Unexpectedly small effects of mutations in bacteria bring new perspectives – November 2010 Excerpt: Most mutations in the genes of the Salmonella bacterium have a surprisingly small negative impact on bacterial fitness. And this is the case regardless whether they lead to changes in the bacterial proteins or not.,,, using extremely sensitive growth measurements, doctoral candidate Peter Lind showed that most mutations reduced the rate of growth of bacteria by only 0.500 percent. No mutations completely disabled the function of the proteins, and very few had no impact at all. Even more surprising was the fact that mutations that do not change the protein sequence had negative effects similar to those of mutations that led to substitution of amino acids. A possible explanation is that most mutations may have their negative effect by altering mRNA structure, not proteins, as is commonly assumed. http://www.physorg.com/news/2010-11-unexpectedly-small-effects-mutations-bacteria.html
Shoot that doesn't seem to be helping either! Perhaps we just got to give the almighty power of neo-Darwinism ‘room to breathe’? How about we ‘open the floodgates’ to the almighty power of Darwinian Evolution and look at Lenski’s Long Term Evolution Experiment and see what we can find after 50,000 generations, which is equivalent to somewhere around 1,000,000 years of human evolution???
Richard Lenski’s Long-Term Evolution Experiments with E. coli and the Origin of New Biological Information – September 2011 Excerpt: The results of future work aside, so far, during the course of the longest, most open-ended, and most extensive laboratory investigation of bacterial evolution, a number of adaptive mutations have been identified that endow the bacterial strain with greater fitness compared to that of the ancestral strain in the particular growth medium. The goal of Lenski’s research was not to analyze adaptive mutations in terms of gain or loss of function, as is the focus here, but rather to address other longstanding evolutionary questions. Nonetheless, all of the mutations identified to date can readily be classified as either modification-of-function or loss-of-FCT. (Michael J. Behe, “Experimental Evolution, Loss-of-Function Mutations and ‘The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution’,” Quarterly Review of Biology, Vol. 85(4) (December, 2010).) http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/09/richard_lenskis_long_term_evol051051.html
Now that just can’t be right!! Man we should really start to be seeing some neo-Darwinian fireworks by 50,000 generations!?! Hey I know what we can do! How about we see what happened when the ‘top five’ mutations from Lenski’s experiment were combined??? Surely now the Darwinian magic will start flowing!!!
Mutations : when benefits level off – June 2011 – (Lenski’s e-coli after 50,000 generations) Excerpt: After having identified the first five beneficial mutations combined successively and spontaneously in the bacterial population, the scientists generated, from the ancestral bacterial strain, 32 mutant strains exhibiting all of the possible combinations of each of these five mutations. They then noted that the benefit linked to the simultaneous presence of five mutations was less than the sum of the individual benefits conferred by each mutation individually. http://www2.cnrs.fr/en/1867.htm?theme1=7
Now something is going terribly wrong here!!! Tell you what, let’s just forget trying to observe evolution in the lab, I mean it really is kind of cramped in the lab you know, and now let’s REALLY open the floodgates and let’s see what the almighty power of neo-Darwinian evolution can do with the ENTIRE WORLD at its disposal??? Surely now almighty neo-Darwinian evolution will flex its awesomely powerful muscles and forever make those IDiots, who believe in Intelligent Design, cower in terror!!!
A review of The Edge of Evolution: The Search for the Limits of Darwinism The numbers of Plasmodium and HIV in the last 50 years greatly exceeds the total number of mammals since their supposed evolutionary origin (several hundred million years ago), yet little has been achieved by evolution. This suggests that mammals could have “invented” little in their time frame. Behe: ‘Our experience with HIV gives good reason to think that Darwinism doesn’t do much—even with billions of years and all the cells in that world at its disposal’ (p. 155). http://creation.com/review-michael-behe-edge-of-evolution Michael Behe, The Edge of Evolution, pg. 162 Swine Flu, Viruses, and the Edge of Evolution “Indeed, the work on malaria and AIDS demonstrates that after all possible unintelligent processes in the cell–both ones we’ve discovered so far and ones we haven’t–at best extremely limited benefit, since no such process was able to do much of anything. It’s critical to notice that no artificial limitations were placed on the kinds of mutations or processes the microorganisms could undergo in nature. Nothing–neither point mutation, deletion, insertion, gene duplication, transposition, genome duplication, self-organization nor any other process yet undiscovered–was of much use.” http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/05/swine_flu_viruses_and_the_edge020071.html
Now, there is something terribly wrong here! After looking high and low and everywhere in between, we can’t seem to find the almighty power of neo-Darwinism anywhere!! Shoot we can’t even find ANY power of neo-Darwinism whatsoever!!! It is as if the whole neo-Darwinian theory, relentlessly sold to the general public as it was the gospel truth, is nothing but a big fat lie!!!bornagain77
October 17, 2011
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DrREC, Let's see what does methodological naturalism REALLY mean?? A bunch of materialists decided to get together to define science in such a way that ONLY materialistic answers are allowed no matter what the evidence says, and then say that any answer, no matter how overwhelmingly compelling to a conclusion that does not point to materialism, is not science!! Fortunately the evidence itself shows you to be a liar:
The best data we have [concerning the Big Bang] are exactly what I would have predicted, had I nothing to go on but the five books of Moses, the Psalms, the bible as a whole. Dr. Arno Penzias, Nobel Laureate in Physics - co-discoverer of the Cosmic Background Radiation - as stated to the New York Times on March 12, 1978 “Certainly there was something that set it all off,,, I can’t think of a better theory of the origin of the universe to match Genesis” Robert Wilson – Nobel laureate – co-discover Cosmic Background Radiation http://www.evidenceforchristianity.org/index.php?option=com_custom_content&task=view&id=3594 “There is no doubt that a parallel exists between the big bang as an event and the Christian notion of creation from nothing.” George Smoot – Nobel laureate in 2006 for his work on COBE “,,,the astronomical evidence leads to a biblical view of the origin of the world,,, the essential element in the astronomical and biblical accounts of Genesis is the same.” Robert Jastrow – Founder of NASA’s Goddard Institute – Pg.15 ‘God and the Astronomers’ ,,, 'And if your curious about how Genesis 1, in particular, fairs. Hey, we look at the Days in Genesis as being long time periods, which is what they must be if you read the Bible consistently, and the Bible scores 4 for 4 in Initial Conditions and 10 for 10 on the Creation Events' Hugh Ross - Evidence For Intelligent Design Is Everywhere; video
DrREC, How transparently shallow of you guys to do allow only materialistic answers in science, especially when classical materialism, as has been held before the ancient Greeks, has been falsified by Quantum Mechanics, (A. Aspect)!!! I'm sure Newton, Galileo, Kepler, Pasteur, Mendel, and the rest of the Christian founders of modern science would be very angry at what you atheists have tried to do to the modern science they brought forth!!!
Christianity Gave Birth To Each Scientific Discipline - Dr. Henry Fritz Schaefer - video http://vimeo.com/16523153
Skipping over the rest of your shallow rationalizations we come to this in your post DrREC
That humans are not the newest species on the planet is fairly indisputable. Do you really want to debate that?
Well, perhaps you want to debate Dr. Michael Behe's findings:bornagain77
October 17, 2011
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In the case where predictability implies necessity, miracles certainly can't be predictable (as in, calculable, regular, repeatable). They fall into the realm of the contingent. Speculatively, a miracle could be defined as any contingent event for which known causes, including reasonable probabilities, can't be reasonably implicated.material.infantacy
October 17, 2011
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Why yes, that is exactly my claim. Why should this be surprising? Since Aristotle all phenomena have been explained via three and only three causes: mechanical necessity (natural law); chance; and agency. Mechanical necessity is defined by its predictability. Indeed, a natural law is simply an observed regularity. Chance is, by definition, unpredictable (at least with respect to any particular event). Agents act or not as they will. As I have explained, one cannot build a scientific theory which presupposes the immutable actions of agents. You just can't count on those angels.Barry Arrington
October 17, 2011
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Well, no. A natural law is called a “law” because it is predictable; a miracle does not conform to natural law, i.e., it is not predictable. An object subject to earth’s gravity will accelerate 9.81 meters per second per second every single time according to natural law. It is predictable. Certainly I do not discount the logical possibility of an object floating in mid-air thus achieving an acceleration rate of zero. That’s certainly not an event that I would predict knowing what I do about the earth’s gravity, i.e. it is unpredictable.
Natural laws = X. Predictable = Y. Miracle = Z All X's are Y. Z is not X. Therefore, Z is not Y. That's erroneous logic, unless you are going to claim that only things explicable via natural law are predictable. Is that your claim?William J Murray
October 17, 2011
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"Check Engineering and Computer Science." Who? What program rejects methodological naturalism, and how? "In addition, kindly note that Nobel Prize winners and equivalent prize winners include people not practising in the meth nat paradigm." Again, who? Please describe the research, particularly a hypothesis tested by non-methodologically natural means. "it has only been very recently imposed" Nicole Oresme (1320–82), and Roman Catholic bishop "there is no reason to take recourse to the heavens, the last refuge of the weak, or demons, or to our glorious God as if He would produce these effects directly, more so than those effects whose causes we believe are well known to us."DrREC
October 17, 2011
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Barry:
A natural law is called a “law” because it is predictable; a miracle does not conform to natural law, i.e., it is not predictable.
The last part of your sentence should read: a miracle does not conform to natural law, i.e., it is not predictable from natural laws. Jesus predicted that "that the Son of Man will be put to death, and in three days he will rise to life." The Miracle of Fatima was predicted by the three young visionaries. I've blogged about this already.PaV
October 17, 2011
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Check Engineering and Computer Science. In addition, kindly note that Nobel Prize winners and equivalent prize winners include people not practising in the meth nat paradigm. Furthermore, the problem is tha the paradigm is both demonstrably flawed as an epistemological matter -- it breaks down the integrity of science, and it has only been very recently imposed as an explicit a priori, largely as a club to hold off a rising paradigm, design, that looks like opening up vistas to explain cosmological origins, origin of life and origin of body plans. Which of course, the reigning orthodoxy has no sound level playing field explanation for.kairosfocus
October 17, 2011
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"So DrREC you disagree with the predictions???" Yes, 1) They are post-dictions, not predictions. 2) Many are not inherent predictions of materialism. "Materialism predicts" Who? When? Aristotle? 3) That the Bible "we are fearfully and wonderfully made" is not a functional hypothesis regarding biological function. It is a silly power grab, trying to take the work of methodological naturalists and grab it for yourself. So, what is the scientific advance that resulted from rejecting methodological naturalism? What was the hypothesis and what were the experiments conducted? That humans are not the newest species on the planet is fairly indisputable. Do you really want to debate that?DrREC
October 17, 2011
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So DrREC you disagree with the predictions???, perhaps you would care to show me the exact materialistic prediction that predicted a beginning for the universe??? Since you are so dishonest as to not even admit that materialism had predicted a eternal universe, why should your credibility on the rest of the predictions be any better than a used car salesman's???,,, as for your claim here:
Many species have emerged since Homo sapiens-some in our lifetimes.
,,, a materialist will try to assert evolution of species is happening all the time, all over the place. Yet, once again the hard evidence betrays the materialist in his attempts to validate his evolutionary scenario.
The Mirage of "Evolution Before Our Eyes" - August 2011 Excerpt:,,,the important implication of the massive study by Oregon State University zoologist Josef C. Uyeda and his colleagues. They write in PNAS: "Even though rapid, short-term evolution often occurs in intervals shorter than 1 [million years], the changes are constrained and do not accumulate over time." http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/08/no_evolution_before_our_eyes049911.html “Whatever we may try to do within a given species, we soon reach limits which we cannot break through. A wall exists on every side of each species. That wall is the DNA coding, which permits wide variety within it (within the gene pool, or the genotype of a species)-but no exit through that wall. Darwin's gradualism is bounded by internal constraints, beyond which selection is useless." R. Milner, Encyclopedia of Evolution (1990) "Despite a close watch, we have witnessed no new species emerge in the wild in recorded history. Also, most remarkably, we have seen no new animal species emerge in domestic breeding. That includes no new species of fruitflies in hundreds of millions of generations in fruitfly studies, where both soft and harsh pressures have been deliberately applied to the fly populations to induce speciation. And in computer life, where the term “species” does not yet have meaning, we see no cascading emergence of entirely new kinds of variety beyond an initial burst. In the wild, in breeding, and in artificial life, we see the emergence of variation. But by the absence of greater change, we also clearly see that the limits of variation appear to be narrowly bounded, and often bounded within species." Kevin Kelly from his book, "Out of Control" https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-evolutionary-tree-continues-to-fall-falsified-predictions-backpedaling-hgts-and-serendipity-squared/#comment-392638 The Receding Myth of "Junk DNA" - Jonathan Wells - October 6, 2011 Excerpt: Farrell is shocked by my statement in The Myth of Junk DNA that biologists have never observed speciation (the origin of a new species) by natural selection. He refers to "extensive work being done in the field" by two biologists, H. Allen Orr and Matthew L. Niemiller. But Orr and Niemiller study the genetics of existing species and try to find evidence supporting hypotheses about their origins. As I documented in my 2006 book The Politically Incorrect Guide to Darwinism and Intelligent Design, there is nothing in the scientific literature showing that they or any others have ever observed the origin of a new species by natural selection. In plants, new species have been observed to originate by chromosome doubling (polyploidy). But speciation by polyploidy is not due to natural selection (nor to genetic drift, another process mentioned by Farrell), and even evolutionary biologists acknowledge that polyploidy does not solve Darwin's problem. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/10/post_32051651.html New Research on Epistatic Interactions Shows "Overwhelmingly Negative" Fitness Costs and Limits to Evolution - Casey Luskin June 8, 2011 Excerpt: In essence, these studies found that there is a fitness cost to becoming more fit. As mutations increase, bacteria faced barriers to the amount they could continue to evolve. If this kind of evidence doesn't run counter to claims that neo-Darwinian evolution can evolve fundamentally new types of organisms and produce the astonishing diversity we observe in life, what does? http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/06/new_research_on_epistatic_inte047151.html At one of her many public talks, she [Lynn Margulis] asks the molecular biologists in the audience to name a single unambiguous example of the formation of a new species by the accumulation of mutations. Her challenge goes unmet. Michael Behe - Darwin's Black Box - Page 26 Natural Selection and Evolution's Smoking Gun, - American Scientist - 1997 “A matter of unfinished business for biologists is the identification of evolution's smoking gun,”... “the smoking gun of evolution is speciation, not local adaptation and differentiation of populations.” Keith Stewart Thomson - evolutionary biologist
As well, materialists never mention the fact that the variations found in nature (such as peppered moth color and finch beak size) which are often touted as solid proof of evolution are always found to be cyclical in nature. i.e. The variations are found to vary around a median position with never a continual deviation from the norm. This blatant distortion/omission of evidence led Phillip Johnson to comment in the Wall Street Journal:
"When our leading scientists have to resort to the sort of distortion that would land a stock promoter in jail, you know they are in trouble." Evolution? - The Deception Of Unlimited Variation - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4113898
bornagain77
October 17, 2011
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Anyway, my quick search through Einstein's quotes succeeded in giving me another very interesting phrase by him. "No, this trick won't work...How on earth are you ever going to explain in terms of chemistry and physics so important a biological phenomenon as first love?" Elizabeth, are you listening?Eugene S
October 17, 2011
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A longer non-answer. ""but let’s see what SCIENCE itself has to say about methodological naturalism/materialism: “There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.” William Shakespeare – Hamlet"" Shakespeare as your reference to what "SCIENCE itself has to say." Curious choice. "Materialism is thus in direct opposition to Theism which holds that God purposely created us in His image." Methodological Naturalism vs. Philosophical Naturalism. How many times do we have to do this? As for your list-the things "materialism predicted" are a bit curious and unreferenced. Who predicted those things? Some are debatable (junk DNA, transitional fossils ), and others outright false: "Theism predicted man was the last species created on earth – Man himself is the last generally accepted major fossil form to have suddenly appeared in the fossil record" Many species have emerged since Homo sapiens-some in our lifetimes. At and rate, the list doesn't address my question. Which of those findings resulted from a research program that rejected methodological naturalism?DrREC
October 17, 2011
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Sorry, seems to be no good, because there is no actual reference there.Eugene S
October 17, 2011
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But it is pure nonsense to suggest that if we take the story at face value science may one day explain how Jesus did it without suspending natural law.
Which is a pretty good reason why we should not take the story at face value, especially since we know that people tend to exaggerate truth claims over time. However, even if it did happen as written, how would we ever know that, for example, Jesus was not a member of some advanced alien race in possession of food replication technology? That's why a "miracle" always really just means "I don't know how it happened" and nothing more.NormO
October 17, 2011
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Try here. I have long known it but in Russian translation :), so I cannot vouch for its word-to-word accuracy.Eugene S
October 17, 2011
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DrREC, you ask:
What outstanding scientific discovery has been made in the last 50 years by a research program that explicitly rejects methodological naturalism?
I don't know about a 50 year demarcation, but let's see what SCIENCE itself has to say about methodological naturalism/materialism:
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." William Shakespeare - Hamlet
This imposition of materialism onto the scientific method is usually called methodological naturalism, methodological materialism, or scientific materialism etc... Yet today, due to the impressive success of methodological naturalism in our everyday lives, to find 'material' solutions for design problems, many scientists are unable to separate this artificial imposition of the materialistic philosophy from the scientific method in this completely different question of origins.
A Question for Barbara Forrest http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2009/06/question-for-barbara-forrest.html
In fact, I've heard someone say, "Science is materialism." Yet science clearly is NOT materialism. Materialism is a philosophy which makes the dogmatic assertion that only blind material processes generated everything around us, including ourselves. Materialism is thus in direct opposition to Theism which holds that God purposely created us in His image. Furthermore science, or more particularly the scientific method, in reality, only cares to relentlessly pursue the truth and could care less if the answer is a materialistic one or not. This is especially true in these questions of origins, since we are indeed questioning the materialistic philosophy itself. i.e. We are asking the scientific method to answer this very specific question, "Did God create us or did blind material processes create us?" When we realize this is the actual question we are seeking an answer to within the scientific method, then of course it is readily apparent we cannot impose strict materialistic answers onto the scientific method prior to investigation. No less than leading "New Atheist" Richard Dawkins agrees:
"The presence of a creative deity in the universe is clearly a scientific hypothesis. Indeed, it is hard to imagine a more momentous hypothesis in all of science." Richard Dawkins https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/free-to-think-why-scientific-integrity-matters-by-caroline-crocker/
In fact when looking at the evidence in this light we find out many interesting things which scientists, who have been blinded by the philosophy of materialism, miss. This is because the materialistic and Theistic philosophy make, and have made, several natural contradictory predictions about what evidence we will find. These predictions, and the evidence we have found, can be tested against one another within the scientific method.
Steps of the Scientific Method http://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/project_scientific_method.shtml
For a quick overview, here are a few:
1. Materialism predicted an eternal universe, Theism predicted a created universe. - Big Bang points to a creation event. - 2. Materialism predicted time had an infinite past, Theism predicted time had a creation. - Time was created in the Big Bang. - 3. Materialism predicted space has always existed, Theism predicted space had a creation (Psalm 89:12) - Space was created in the Big Bang. - 4. Materialism predicted that material has always existed, Theism predicted 'material' was created. - 'Material' was created in the Big Bang. 5. Materialism predicted at the base of physical reality would be a solid indestructible material particle which rigidly obeyed the rules of time and space, Theism predicted the basis of this reality was created by a infinitely powerful and transcendent Being who is not limited by time and space - Quantum mechanics reveals a wave/particle duality for the basis of our reality which blatantly defies our concepts of time and space. - 6. Materialism predicted the rate at which time passed was constant everywhere in the universe, Theism predicted God is eternal and is outside of time - Special Relativity has shown that time, as we understand it, is relative and comes to a complete stop at the speed of light. (Psalm 90:4 - 2 Timothy 1:9)- 7. Materialism predicted the universe did not have life in mind and life was ultimately an accident of time and chance. Theism predicted this universe was purposely created by God with man in mind - Every transcendent universal constant scientists can measure is exquisitely fine-tuned for carbon-based life to exist in this universe. - 8. Materialism predicted complex life in this universe should be fairly common. Theism predicted the earth is extremely unique in this universe - Statistical analysis of the hundreds of required parameters which enable complex life to be possible on earth gives strong indication the earth is extremely unique in this universe. - 9. Materialism predicted much of the DNA code was junk. Theism predicted we are fearfully and wonderfully made - ENCODE research into the DNA has revealed a "biological jungle deeper, denser, and more difficult to penetrate than anyone imagined.". - 10. Materialism predicted a extremely beneficial and flexible mutation rate for DNA which was ultimately responsible for all the diversity and complexity of life we see on earth. Theism predicted only God created life on earth - The mutation rate to DNA is overwhelmingly detrimental. Detrimental to such a point that it is seriously questioned whether there are any truly beneficial mutations whatsoever. (M. Behe; JC Sanford) - 11. Materialism predicted a very simple first life form which accidentally came from "a warm little pond". Theism predicted God created life - The simplest life ever found on Earth is far more complex than any machine man has made through concerted effort. (Michael Denton PhD) - 12. Materialism predicted it took a very long time for life to develop on earth. Theism predicted life to appear abruptly on earth after water appeared on earth (Genesis 1:10-11) - We find evidence for complex photo-synthetic life in the oldest sedimentary rocks ever found on earth - 13. Materialism predicted the gradual unfolding of life to be self-evident in the fossil record. Theism predicted complex and diverse life to appear abruptly in the seas in God's fifth day of creation. - The Cambrian Explosion shows a sudden appearance of many different and completely unique fossils within a very short "geologic resolution time" in the Cambrian seas. - 14. Materialism predicted there should be numerous transitional fossils found in the fossil record, Theism predicted sudden appearance and rapid diversity within different kinds found in the fossil record - Fossils are consistently characterized by sudden appearance of a group/kind in the fossil record, then rapid diversity within the group/kind, and then long term stability and even deterioration of variety within the overall group/kind, and within the specific species of the kind, over long periods of time. Of the few dozen or so fossils claimed as transitional, not one is uncontested as a true example of transition between major animal forms out of millions of collected fossils. - 15. Materialism predicted animal speciation should happen on a somewhat constant basis on earth. Theism predicted man was the last species created on earth - Man himself is the last generally accepted major fossil form to have suddenly appeared in the fossil record. - references for each of the 15 predictions: https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1ubha8aFKlJiljnuCa98QqLihFWFwZ_nnUNhEC6m6Cys
,,,for a far more detailed list of failed predictions of neo-Darwinism see Dr. Hunter’s site here:
Darwin’s Predictions http://www.darwinspredictions.com/
As you can see when we remove the artificial imposition of the materialistic philosophy, from the scientific method, and look carefully at the predictions of both the materialistic philosophy and the Theistic philosophy, side by side, we find the scientific method is very good at pointing us in the direction of Theism as the true explanation. - In fact it, the scientific method, minus dogmatic materialism, is even very good at pointing us to Christianity:
Quantum Mechanics and Relativity – The Collapse Of Physics? – video – with notes as to a very plausible reconciliation that is missed by materialists stuck in their methodological naturalism rut http://www.metacafe.com/watch/6597379/ General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Entropy & the Shroud Of Turin - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5070355
Music and verse:
Natalie Grant – Alive http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=F09J9JNU 1 Corinthians 15:55 "Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?"
bornagain77
October 17, 2011
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Collin, I cannot agree with 4. Free will assumes a choice between good and evil. It can be predicted, p = 0.5 :) Of course, in practice there are complications and one faces choices between "bad" and "very bad", but anyway in essence the choice is typically between two options. I agree that everything has finally supernatural origin. But we cannot prove that by reasoning because this would otherwise have eliminated faith.Eugene S
October 17, 2011
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A non-answer, but do you have a reference for that quote? I'd love to use it, but an Einstein quote without a reference is almost certainly made-up.DrREC
October 17, 2011
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Barry, I said, "general usage." I've heard people say, "It's a miracle" after a surprise turnaround in a game. I was just covering the common ways the word is used. A "miracle comeback" is, of course, not a miracle in the sense of Jesus feeding a crowd. Even people who use the word in the first sense would distinguish it from the second, I hope. I don't discount the account of the feeding of the five thousand is not credible. I believe it happened. And it wasn't a miracle to Jesus. It was him doing what he knew how to do. Perhaps one day we'll know exactly how he did it, and then it won't be a miracle in that sense to us either. But I'm not counting on that. In the Bible miracles were typically reserved for identifying God, his prophets, and Jesus. God didn't need a miracle to save Israel at the Red Sea. He led them to a position where they would be cornered to set up the confrontation. It wasn't just about saving them. It was about showing himself to them. I doubt that we will ever need to understand or learn to replicate such miracles, as we will not have the same use for them. But that's just wild speculation on my part. I don't claim to know one way or the other.ScottAndrews
October 17, 2011
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Einstein once said: “Everybody knows that something can’t be done and then somebody turns up and he doesn’t know it can’t be done and he does it.”Eugene S
October 17, 2011
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What outstanding scientific discovery has been made in the last 50 years by a research program that explicitly rejects methodological naturalism?DrREC
October 17, 2011
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Scott Andrews writes: “In general usage, a miracle is something that seemed impossible or seemed exceedingly improbable. Examples are Jesus feeding a crowd, or a sports team coming from far behind to win a game.” This is not correct. In the account of the loaves and fishes Jesus took five small barley loaves and two small fishes and fed several thousand people. After they ate there were twelve basketfuls of left over broken pieces. Surely you will admit that this event is of a different kind, not of a different degree, of an underdog football team winning the game. In the first, the laws of physics are defied. In the second, no law of physics is defied. Now, as you say, you can discount the account of the feeding of the five thousand as not credible. But it is pure nonsense to suggest that if we take the story at face value science may one day explain how Jesus did it without suspending natural law.Barry Arrington
October 17, 2011
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I don't understand the fuss over free will vs. determinism. I believe in both. My view is quite simple actually, we are capable of choice, but in our decision-making we can only choose that which, based on knowledge at hand, appears to be the best option. Hence, we are free to make only a single choice. Contradiction? I say wonderful paradox.ThoughtSpark
October 17, 2011
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In general usage, a miracle is something that seemed impossible or seemed exceedingly improbable. Examples are Jesus feeding a crowd, or a sports team coming from far behind to win a game. In more practical terms, it is just something that we cannot explain. That places miracles squarely in the eyes of the beholders. For one person a solar eclipse is a miracle. For another it is easily explained. A given event has either happened or it has not. If it has happened, it it explainable in terms of present-day knowledge or it is not. The latter of all those possibilities merely indicates that we cannot explain it. We may infer that it was clever trick designed to look impossible, or that it truly is inexplicable. In either case, when we call an observed event a miracle, we refer to our own knowledge and limitation. Perhaps today's miracle will be tomorrow's science. As for accounts or stories of past miracles, such as the parting of the Red Sea or the self-organization of molecules into self-replicating entities with a curious drive toward self-improvement, science just can't help us there. There are too many unknown factors. We must decide whether an event that defies any known explanations actually occurred, or whether the story is too fantastic to be credible. Or we can make our best guess and see if one day science is able to shine some light on it. We can not use any accounts or speculations regarding past "miracles" as a basis for additional scientific explanations without adding the uncertainty of the miracles to the explanation.ScottAndrews
October 17, 2011
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It also does not support the claim that intelligence needs free will. That's at least debatable.Collin
October 17, 2011
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oops, I didn't mean you were right but not deliberately. I meant that I don't think people deliberately use the terms as camouflage, but the result is as you sayElizabeth Liddle
October 17, 2011
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Sorry. Stochastic means "non-deterministic" and stochastic processes or variables can only be predicted statistically, i.e. in aggregate. So, for example, coin-tossing is a stochastic process - so I can predict with a great deal of confidence that over 1000, 50% of them will be heads, but I cannot predict the outcome of any one toss with any certainty at all. Similarly, I can predicate the rate of radioactive decay with great accuracy, but if I am listening to the decay on a Geiger Counter, I will be pretty useless at telling you when the next click will be.Elizabeth Liddle
October 17, 2011
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