Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Science is Good, But Not That Good

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In a comment to my last post timothya asked “Can anyone provide a brief synopsis of a reliable way of knowing that is founded on a method other than science?”

That timothya would even ask such a question suggests that he is sore tempted by the siren’s song of scientism. To which I say, “lash yourself to the mast timothya, and let me help you sail past this dangerous island.”

Before we can deal with the manifold errors of scientism we must first define what we are talking about. “Scientism” is the idea that science provides the only valid way to know any truth. Some scientists have stretched the idea even further and asserted that since we can know truth only through science, science is therefore the only competent authority on any subject. For example, the article cited in my last post refers to Peter Atkins, who wrote, “There appear to be no bounds to [science’s] competence. . . . This claim of universal competence may seem arrogant, but it appears to be justified.”

It is, of course, true that in the last 400 years science has been wildly successful within its realm of competency. In that relatively brief period through the methods of science we have expanded our knowledge about the world and increased our material comfort in ways unimaginable in the rest of recorded history combined. There is no denying that.

The problem is that the very brilliance of science’s success has blinded people like Atkins to the limitations of the scientific method. Properly understood, science is simply a method of investigating empirical claims that has not changed much since the time of Francis Bacon (ca 1600):

Ask a question about the world: How can I cure this disease?
Formulate a hypothesis: Vaccine X will cure this disease.
Test the prediction of the hypothesis: Perform a double-blind experiment on 5,000 subjects.
Analysis: Compare the prediction of the null hypothesis to the alternative hypothesis.

The first limitation I would point out is that this method does not cover even the whole realm of the “empirical.” Consider history for example. We know with a high degree of reliability that Abraham Lincoln was the president of the United States in 1863. I did not arrive at this knowledge through scientific means. I know it because someone told me, and they in turn learned it from someone else, who in turn learned it from someone else back to the actual people who witnessed first-hand a man who called himself “Abraham Lincoln” sitting in the White House in 1863 and acting for all the world like he was the president of the United States.

Consider geography. I have never been to Russia, but I am quite certain that Moscow is the capital of that country. I did not arrive at this knowledge through scientific means either.

If timothya will stop and think a moment, he will realize that practically everything he knows he knows because someone told him, not because the truth of the proposition has been confirmed by science.

Even some knowledge that is almost universally considered “scientific” was not, strictly speaking, obtained through application of the scientific method. Consider Neo-Darwinian Evolution (“NDE”), the standard model of how life diversified and spread throughout the earth. NDE is an integration of Darwin’s original theory of natural selection and Mendelian genetics. And I am here to tell you that many of the predictions of NDE – including especially its most spectacular claims – have never been (indeed cannot be) subjected to experimental verification.

For example, NDE holds that new body plans result from the accretion of random changes to the genome (whether through mutations or drift or what have you) sorted through a fitness function called “natural selection.” It might come as a surprise to many of my readers, but this prediction of NDE has NEVER been verified experimentally despite countless thousands of attempts (primarily on hapless fruit flies). Let me say that again: No scientist has EVER observed in real time a new body plan coming into existence through a process of random changes to the genome sorted by natural selection.

“What about Darwin’s finches and those white and gray moths and the rise of antibacterial resistance I’ve heard about?” you might ask. Fair question. We absolutely must give Darwin his due. These and other examples of “microevolution” have been observed countless times. But it is one thing to say, for example, that the average size of finch beaks increases in times of famine due to the processes of NDE. It is something altogether different to say that finches themselves came into being in the first place through the processes of NDE. The former statement has been confirmed experimentally. The latter has not. Rather, the latter statement is the product of an inference – i.e., NDE causes small changes to organisms; therefore NDE causes big changes to organisms too.

Note that it is not my purpose here to argue that NDE’s claims about how new body plans came into existence are necessarily wrong (though I think they are) simply because those claims have not been confirmed by direct observation through scientific experiments. My point is that evolutionary biology, as an historical science, is based not on strict application of the scientific method. Instead, it is based on inferences from the data (an extrapolation if you will) that are themselves not subject to scientific verification in the form of direct observation.

Here are some other indisputably true things (or in timothya’s parlance “things we know reliably”) that were not derived through application of the scientific method:

The principles of logic

For any given proposition X, X cannot be both true and false at the same time and under the same formal circumstances.

The law of non-contradiction cannot be proven or disproven experimentally. It is known a priori.

The principles of mathematics

7 + 2 = 9.

Like the axioms of logic, mathematics is known a priori.

The principles undergirding the scientific enterprise itself

This one might surprise someone like timothya who is tempted by scientism, but the assumptions upon which the scientific enterprise itself is built are not subject, even in principle, to scientific verification or falsification.

For example, scientists assume (they do not know) that scientific laws (e.g., gravity) operate the same way in the furthest reaches of the universe as they do here on earth. Obviously, there is no way to confirm this assumption experimentally and it will forever remain an assumption, not an experimentally verified fact.

Scientists assume the universe is always and in all places rational and therefore it can be successfully modeled. Water runs downhill today and it will run downhill tomorrow. It will not suddenly start running uphill. In other words, scientists assume that the regularities they observe (which they call “laws of science”) will hold. No scientist can say “why” water runs downhill other than to say that gravity makes water run downhill. But the law of gravity is not a causal agent. Rather, it is an observed regularity. In other words, in 100% of the experiments on earth, water has run downhill, and from that we infer a general principle that things on earth always fall down and we call that general principle “gravity.” Thus, saying that water runs downhill because of the law of gravity is at bottom saying nothing more than water runs downhill because water runs downhill. Chesterton was right. Water runs downhill because it is bewitched.

Love

I love my wife. My knowledge of my love for my wife is completely reliable; yet I did not arrive at that knowledge through the methods of science.

Ethics

It is wrong to torture infants for pleasure. The truth of this statement is utterly reliable and timothya knows this even if he refuses to admit it. Neither he nor I arrived at our utterly certain knowledge of the truth of this statement through scientific means.

I could go on, but I think the point is clear enough by now. Science is amazingly successful within its sphere. But the truth uncovered by science reveals only a portion of the truth that is out there, and the claims of the “universal competence” of science are wild exagerations pushed by scientists who want  to be high priests of a secular church.

Comments
In re: 47
He points out that given naturalism + evolutionary theory, the odds of our beliefs about things (including naturalism) are either low or inscrutable.
Right, but why should we believe that "given naturalism + evolutionary theory, the odds of our beliefs about things (including naturalism) are either low or inscrutable"? The argument for this is completely a priori. Plantinga identifies four logically possible options: (1) there is no causal connection between behavior and belief; (2) there is causal connection between behavior and belief, but the causal connection has nothing to do with the semantic properties of beliefs ("semantic epiphenomenalism"); (3) there is causal connection between semantic properties and behavior, but selection tends to favor false beliefs, rather than true ones; (4) there is a causal connection between semantic properties and behavior, and selection tends to favor true beliefs. Needless to say, (4) is the option almost all naturalists would think is the right one, assuming they accept how Plantinga sets up the relationship between belief and behavior in the first place. (I say 'almost all' because one might interpret Nietzsche as holding a cross between (2) and (3).) Plantinga's argument, then, depends on his response to (4). And here, too, his argument depends entirely on a priori considerations: that "there are any number of belief-cum-desire systems that equally fit a given bit of behavior". That is, there are any number of conceivable or possible belief-cum-desire combinations that equally fit a given bit of behavior. So this too turns out to be a strictly a priori objection to (4). And then it's just not clear how seriously naturalists ought to take this concern, because all that's shown is that the causal connection between semantic content and adaptive behavior is not a necessary connection -- but whoever thought it was?Kantian Naturalist
December 11, 2012
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Here is another one that you can put in your pipe to smoke: Wheeler's Classic Delayed Choice Experiment: Excerpt: Now, for many billions of years the photon is in transit in region 3. Yet we can choose (many billions of years later) which experimental set up to employ – the single wide-focus, or the two narrowly focused instruments. We have chosen whether to know which side of the galaxy the photon passed by (by choosing whether to use the two-telescope set up or not, which are the instruments that would give us the information about which side of the galaxy the photon passed). We have delayed this choice until a time long after the particles "have passed by one side of the galaxy, or the other side of the galaxy, or both sides of the galaxy," so to speak. Yet, it seems paradoxically that our later choice of whether to obtain this information determines which side of the galaxy the light passed, so to speak, billions of years ago. So it seems that time has nothing to do with effects of quantum mechanics. And, indeed, the original thought experiment was not based on any analysis of how particles evolve and behave over time – it was based on the mathematics. This is what the mathematics predicted for a result, and this is exactly the result obtained in the laboratory. http://www.bottomlayer.com/bottom/basic_delayed_choice.htm "Thus one decides the photon shall have come by one route or by both routes after it has already done its travel" John A. Wheeler Alain Aspect speaks on John Wheeler's Delayed Choice Experiment - video http://vimeo.com/38508798bornagain77
December 11, 2012
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Kant, the empirical evidence I cited from Zeilinger does not care how clearly you have explained your naturalistic position for free will. The empirical evidence, which has final authority in science, unambiguously shows that I have a transcendent component to me being that is effecting material states into the past, a component to my being that is independent of any possible naturalistic space-time story you would wish to invoke for free will, no matter how convoluted is your naturalistic 'explanation' is! (including the extreme many-worlds 'explanation' for quantum correlations if you were to go that far!) note: Looking Beyond Space and Time to Cope With Quantum Theory – (Oct. 28, 2012) Excerpt: To derive their inequality, which sets up a measurement of entanglement between four particles, the researchers considered what behaviours are possible for four particles that are connected by influences that stay hidden and that travel at some arbitrary finite speed. Mathematically (and mind-bogglingly), these constraints define an 80-dimensional object. The testable hidden influence inequality is the boundary of the shadow this 80-dimensional shape casts in 44 dimensions. The researchers showed that quantum predictions can lie outside this boundary, which means they are going against one of the assumptions. Outside the boundary, either the influences can’t stay hidden, or they must have infinite speed.,,, The remaining option is to accept that (quantum) influences must be infinitely fast,,, “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,” says Nicolas Gisin, Professor at the University of Geneva, Switzerland,,, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/10/121028142217.htmbornagain77
December 11, 2012
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What Plantinga has done, then, is show at most that the connection between semantic content and adaptive behavior is not necessarily true. But so what? Naturalism doesn’t claim that it is necessarily true, only that it is actually true. And Plantinga’s argument doesn’t so much as affect that claim one way or another, it can’t affect it, because Plantinga is arguing completely a priori.
The fact that Plantinga's argument is an a priori argument doesn't matter much given what he's aiming for. He points out that given naturalism + evolutionary theory, the odds of our beliefs about things (including naturalism) are either low or inscrutable. The goal of the argument isn't to show that, given E+N, our cognitive are 'actually' unreliable. It's that we should conclude their reliability is either low or inscrutable based on E+N. It's still in principle possible for them to be reliable - we just shouldn't expect that given the conjunction.nullasalus
December 11, 2012
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Either my thoughts are deterministic by whatever state the material particles in my brain are in or I have a transcendent component to my being that exercises free will to either acknowledge or reject, and choose to believe or to not believe, the truth of a proposition or not.
Hard as this may be for you to believe, I regard that as a false dichotomy. I've tried explaining what the third option consists of, but apparently I've not yet done a very good job.Kantian Naturalist
December 11, 2012
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supplemental note: Here’s a recent variation of Wheeler’s Delayed Choice experiment, which highlights the ability of the conscious observer to effect 'spooky action into the past', thus further solidifying consciousness's centrality in reality. Furthermore in the following experiment, the claim that past material states determine future conscious choices (determinism) is falsified by the fact that present conscious choices effect past material states: Quantum physics mimics spooky action into the past - April 23, 2012 Excerpt: The authors experimentally realized a "Gedankenexperiment" called "delayed-choice entanglement swapping", formulated by Asher Peres in the year 2000. Two pairs of entangled photons are produced, and one photon from each pair is sent to a party called Victor. Of the two remaining photons, one photon is sent to the party Alice and one is sent to the party Bob. Victor can now choose between two kinds of measurements. If he decides to measure his two photons in a way such that they are forced to be in an entangled state, then also Alice's and Bob's photon pair becomes entangled. If Victor chooses to measure his particles individually, Alice's and Bob's photon pair ends up in a separable state. Modern quantum optics technology allowed the team to delay Victor's choice and measurement with respect to the measurements which Alice and Bob perform on their photons. "We found that whether Alice's and Bob's photons are entangled and show quantum correlations or are separable and show classical correlations can be decided after they have been measured", explains Xiao-song Ma, lead author of the study. According to the famous words of Albert Einstein, the effects of quantum entanglement appear as "spooky action at a distance". The recent experiment has gone one remarkable step further. "Within a naïve classical world view, quantum mechanics can even mimic an influence of future actions on past events", says Anton Zeilinger. http://phys.org/news/2012-04-quantum-physics-mimics-spooky-action.htmlbornagain77
December 11, 2012
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In re: 41 Well, we're definitely starting off on the same page, insofar as we're starting off with a conception of human cognition as intrinsically fallible. But, as sometimes needs to be pointed out when fallibilism rears its head, human cognition is not only fallible but corrigible (correctable). So the question would be, can unguided evolution explain how human cognition is fallible-yet-corrigible?
physical cause-effect chains shaped by chance and mechanical necessity simply do not equate to ground-consequent logical relations, and indeed the calculators and computers that perform arithmetic and logical operations do so because we have found a way to organise matter to do so.
I agree entirely, but perhaps for different reasons than you do. Logic is normative, and causation is not. So for me the really hard question is, from whence normativity? (Robert Brandom, whose work on the subject I find deeply compelling, calls logic "our semantic self-consciousness," which I find positively delightful.) The reason I'm dismissive of Plantinga is because I have basically different starting-points from him. Plantinga, from what I can tell, has a basically Cartesian starting-point for thinking about semantic content. (I say this in part because of his frequent allusions to "modern philosophy from Descartes to Hume and Reid," a phrase he often uses.) My starting point is basically anti-Cartesian, because I take my point of departure from Peirce. (For Peirce's anti-Cartesianism, see "Some Consequences of Four Incapacities".) The pragmatist tradition, as it runs from Peirce through Dewey and Sellars to Brandom, emphasizes that semantic content is normative because is fundamentally social, not individual. And this 'grounds,' so to speak, the fundamentally communal or social character of not only intentionality (semantic content) but also the fallible-but-corrigible character of human reasoning.Kantian Naturalist
December 11, 2012
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I find it telling that a Darwinist would call you on your incoherent word salad! such as you just did again,,, Either my thoughts are deterministic by whatever state the material particles in my brain are in or I have a transcendent component to my being that exercises free will to either acknowledge or reject, and choose to believe or to not believe, the truth of a proposition or not. Playing word games as you do does not negate this simple fact: Sam Harris's Free Will: The Medial Pre-Frontal Cortex Did It - Martin Cothran - November 9, 2012 Excerpt: There is something ironic about the position of thinkers like Harris on issues like this: they claim that their position is the result of the irresistible necessity of logic (in fact, they pride themselves on their logic). Their belief is the consequent, in a ground/consequent relation between their evidence and their conclusion. But their very stated position is that any mental state -- including their position on this issue -- is the effect of a physical, not logical cause. By their own logic, it isn't logic that demands their assent to the claim that free will is an illusion, but the prior chemical state of their brains. The only condition under which we could possibly find their argument convincing is if they are not true. The claim that free will is an illusion requires the possibility that minds have the freedom to assent to a logical argument, a freedom denied by the claim itself. It is an assent that must, in order to remain logical and not physiological, presume a perspective outside the physical order. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/11/sam_harriss_fre066221.html Moreover Kant, you have zero empirical evidence, and no I do not consider your incoherent word games as empirical evidence, whereas I do have empirical evidence that I have a free will that exercises dominion of material states: In the following video, at the 37:00 minute mark, Anton Zeilinger, a leading researcher in quantum teleportation with many breakthroughs under his belt, humorously reflects on just how deeply determinism has been undermined by quantum mechanics by saying such a deep lack of determinism may provide some of us a loop hole when they meet God on judgment day. Prof Anton Zeilinger speaks on quantum physics. at UCT - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3ZPWW5NOrw Personally, I feel that such a deep undermining of determinism by quantum mechanics, far from providing a 'loop hole' on judgement day, actually restores free will to its rightful place in the grand scheme of things, thus making God's final judgments on men's souls all the more fully binding since man truly is a 'free moral agent' as Theism has always maintained. And to solidify this theistic claim for how reality is constructed, the following study came along a few months after I had seen Dr. Zeilinger’s video: Can quantum theory be improved? - July 23, 2012 Excerpt: Being correct 50% of the time when calling heads or tails on a coin toss won’t impress anyone. So when quantum theory predicts that an entangled particle will reach one of two detectors with just a 50% probability, many physicists have naturally sought better predictions. The predictive power of quantum theory is, in this case, equal to a random guess. Building on nearly a century of investigative work on this topic, a team of physicists has recently performed an experiment whose results show that, despite its imperfections, quantum theory still seems to be the optimal way to predict measurement outcomes., However, in the new paper, the physicists have experimentally demonstrated that there cannot exist any alternative theory that increases the predictive probability of quantum theory by more than 0.165, with the only assumption being that measurement (*conscious observation) parameters can be chosen independently (free choice, free will, assumption) of the other parameters of the theory.,,, ,, the experimental results provide the tightest constraints yet on alternatives to quantum theory. The findings imply that quantum theory is close to optimal in terms of its predictive power, even when the predictions are completely random. http://phys.org/news/2012-07-quantum-theory.html So just as I had suspected after watching Dr. Zeilinger’s video, it is found that a required assumption of ‘free will’ in quantum mechanics is what necessarily drives the completely random (non-deterministic) aspect of quantum mechanics. Moreover, it was shown in the paper that one cannot ever improve the predictive power of quantum mechanics by ever removing free will as a starting assumption in Quantum Mechanics! Henry Stapp on the Conscious Choice and the Non-Local Quantum Entangled Effects - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJN01s1gOqA of note: What does the term "measurement" mean in quantum mechanics? "Measurement" or "observation" in a quantum mechanics context are really just other ways of saying that the observer is interacting with the quantum system and measuring the result in toto. http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=597846 Needless to say, finding ‘free will conscious observation’ to be ‘built into’ our best description of foundational reality, quantum mechanics, as a starting assumption, 'free will observation' which is indeed the driving aspect of randomness in quantum mechanics, is VERY antithetical to the entire materialistic philosophy which demands that a 'non-telological randomness' be the driving force of creativity in Darwinian evolution! Also of interest: Scientific Evidence That Mind Effects Matter – Random Number Generators – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4198007 I once asked a evolutionist, after showing him the preceding experiments, “Since you ultimately believe that the ‘god of random chance’ produced everything we see around us, what in the world is my mind doing pushing your god around?” Of note: since our free will choices figure so prominently in how reality is actually found to be constructed in our understanding of quantum mechanics, I think a Christian perspective on just how important our choices are in this temporal life, in regards to our eternal destiny, is very fitting: Is God Good? (Free will and the problem of evil) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfd_1UAjeIA Ravi Zacharias - How To Measure Your Choices - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Op_S5syhKI You must measure your choices by the measure of 1) eternity 2) morality 3) accountability 4) charity notes:bornagain77
December 11, 2012
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In re: 49:
But on naturalism how do you know what you just tried to ‘explain away’ is true? Should I talk your deterministic brain state as more true than my deterministic brain state? If so, how?
I don't think the content of our thoughts (yours, mine, ours) is determined by our neurophysiological processes. I think semantic content (the content of our thoughts) is determined, first and foremost, by mastery of a shared language. Intentionality is social, not biological. There is a kind of 'natural intentionality' as well, which is the intentionality of bodily orientations, and this does ground some 'simple thoughts', of the sort probably found in pre-linguistic humans and non-linguistic animals, but I think that the acquisition of language radically transforms the kinds of thoughts that one is able to have. Unlike some (many?) naturalists, I do think there is something right about the traditional distinction in kind between rational animals and non-rational animals. I just don't think that distinction in kind is best explained by rejecting naturalism. Also, I don't think that neurophysiological processes, or biological processes generally, are "determined" in the sense of the billiard-ball model of efficient causation. I think that "determinism" only makes sense given very simple systems. Our thinking about complex, dynamical systems should not be held hostage to the dogmas of 17th-century mechanism.Kantian Naturalist
December 11, 2012
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KN: First, thanks for giving a reference. I did not notice your response (if it is other than the similarly challenged spacecraft metaphor), but am pretty sure you will be facing the grounding issue again in some form, as the underlying logic is clear. All reasonable worldviews must be finite and all worldviews face difficulties. So, the issue is, where do we stop and whether the stop is circular and question-begging. The solution to that is, comparative difficulties at base level, where I would argue that self-evident first principles of right reason and related points are critical in finding a good choice, cf the Royce, Error Exists point. As tot he issue of the difference between the adaptive and the accurate to reality, the existence of modelling theory immediately pivots on that. Models are usually presented as useful simplifications that capture key behaviours of reality and are helpful guides to action, most obviously in engineering, management and the like. At the next step, such models are by definition inaccurate, i.e. false. BUT THEY ARE USEFUL. In short the adaptive and the accurate are not equivalent. And, we have no good reason to infer that a blind process rooted in chance and necessity will be not only adaptive but also accurate. (Indeed, even at the level of perceptual senses, such as vision and hearing, we know the systems do what we would call false colouring in instrumentation. For instance, we see roughly log sensitivity, used to compress signals, and leading to a response to fractional change in signal rather than linear increment. You may not know about electronic tricks like suppressing bass in audio, the ear supplies the perception. (Used to be used a lot with transistor radios in the old days. Likewise, phone signals have about a 3 - 4 kHz band and reportedly 6 kHz or so is indistinguishable form full band audio for speech.) When it comes to more sophisticated issues of reasoning, theories, worldviews and the like, we know that perceptions and realities are not equivalent. Newtonian dynamics, is a well known case. Scientific inference on best empirically grounded explanation is not to be equated to truth or even fact. I need not go into the ways that say a Marxist will end up in self reference, or a Freudian or a Behaviourist etc. So now, the point comes back: physical cause-effect chains shaped by chance and mechanical necessity simply do not equate to ground-consequent logical relations, and indeed the calculators and computers that perform arithmetic and logical operations do so because we have found a way to organise matter to do so. The electrons, semiconductor junctions and the like neither know nor care about accuracy in what they are doing. And if you will recall the infamous Pentium math coprocessor recall, you will recall that there is the distinct possibility of built-in error. BTW, for some calculations -- last time I checked -- Excel is defective, and Gnumeric is preferred. (I need not bother with the differences in answers on different financial calculators!) So, sorry, but the concern expressed and given colourful form by Plantinga and others, is very much still on the table. KFkairosfocus
December 11, 2012
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Should I take yourbornagain77
December 11, 2012
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But on naturalism how do you know what you just tried to 'explain away' is true? Should I talk your deterministic brain state as more true than my deterministic brain state? If so, how?bornagain77
December 11, 2012
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Kairosfocus, Somewhere on another thread I'd responded to your critique of the raft metaphor. I don't recall your response. I don't mind re-writing the critique, if you'll consider it seriously. Also, if you're going to cite Churchland's remark, "truth, whatever that is, definitely takes the hindmost", a certain degree of courtesy recommends that you cite her original article, in context. It's called "Epistemology in the Age of Neuroscience", and she makes completely clear why she rejects the Aristotelian approach to truth. One might take issue with her rejection -- I certainly do! -- but then again, I've taken the time to read her work. In fact, I think that Plantinga's interpretation of Churchland is quite badly mistaken, and that naturalism does not suffer from the self-referential incoherence Plantinga and others believe it does. I'm sorry, but from what I tell, Plantinga is just wrong, and here's why. Plantinga's EAAN (evolutionary argument against naturalism) aims at motivating doubt that unguided natural selection could have resulted in reliable cognitive capacities. (Plantinga calls this "Darwin's Doubt," for the obvious reason.) In order to motivate the Doubt (as I shall call it), Plantinga needs to drive a wedge between semantic content and adaptive behavior. But can he do so, and if so, how? From what I've seen of the argument, the really crucial moves depend entirely on what we can coherently imagine or conceive of -- we can coherently imagine situations under which semantic content and adaptive behavior are teased apart in odd ways that deviate from how we usually think about their relationship. But that establishes nothing worth taking seriously. Suppose we grant, for the sake of argument, that conceivability entails possibility. If I can conceive of not-P, then it is possible that not-P. And possibility entails the negation of necessity: if not-P is possible, then P is not necessary. What Plantinga has done, then, is show at most that the connection between semantic content and adaptive behavior is not necessarily true. But so what? Naturalism doesn't claim that it is necessarily true, only that it is actually true. And Plantinga's argument doesn't so much as affect that claim one way or another, it can't affect it, because Plantinga is arguing completely a priori. Hence, I conclude that Plantinga's EAAN doesn't work, because the Doubt should not be taken seriously to begin with.Kantian Naturalist
December 11, 2012
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F/N: And while I am on pet peeves, there is a material difference between reality and computer simulations also. I cringe when I hear such simulations -- often, in an education context -- discussed as "experiments."kairosfocus
December 11, 2012
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"but I defy you to parse that collection of words into a coherent sentence." i.e. "there’s nothing necessary about the fact that we play that language-game."bornagain77
December 11, 2012
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KN: Actually, you are in error. There is a material and decisive difference between experimental and observational sciences [in the former one is able to manipulate variables, in the latter one must try to correlate observations -- e.g. chemistry vs volcanology], and there is a further distinction where one may not actually observe the realities one is interested in, but must observe traces in the here and now and then project explanations based on causal processes we see in the here-now present that are shown to be adequate to give those traces or the like, and which are characteristic so that the traces may be viewed as signs of the causes. Failure or refusal to address those differences is a root cause of some pretty serious errors, including in the recent history of Montserrat, a case of the over-estimation of the reliability of scientific models and projections on consensus. People paid with their lives for that error. GIVEN WHAT IS POTENTIALLY AT STAKE, please, think again; as was already highlighted. KFkairosfocus
December 11, 2012
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In response to bevets:
If you want to claim that a priori knowledge shows that God must exist, go ahead and make the argument, but it depends on how the details of the theory of a priority get cashed out — it’s not a move one just gets to make for free.
Are you suggesting that metaphysical commitments have implications?
I'm not quite sure what's going on here, but as I understand "metaphysical commitments" and "implications," then "yes, obviously". But I don't understand how they question functions as a response to what I'd said above.Kantian Naturalist
December 11, 2012
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In response to TimothyA:
Why are we arguing about this? I don’t believe there is any useful distinction between the two forms of enquiry. Both require the same criteria for acceptance of evidence. The distinction is one invented by supernaturalists only for the purpose of justifying their a priori (!!) belief in an anthropomorphic universe.
You and I aren't arguing about that distinction at all -- I only pointed out the NCSE reference because I thought it was useful. If you didn't find it useful, no harm. I regard the distinction between "operational science" and "historical science" as wholly spurious.
Though I am willing to restrict use of the term “explanation” for a kind or class of empirical knowledge, namely, empirical knowledge in which a model or construction of the relevant causes shows why the observed regularities hold, to the extent that they do.
I am grateful for your epistemological condescension, but I defy you to parse that collection of words into a coherent sentence. What do you mean?
I'm sorry you thought I was being condescending. Sometimes my thoughts come so fast I don't slow down and express them carefully enough. (It's one of the reasons I have a terrible stammer and prefer on-line communications.) So let me try again. Suppose we observe such-and-such regularities. We describe the regularities, form some generalizations about them, maybe even discover a law, or not. Even if we do discover a law, we also observe conditions under which the law doesn't hold. That's not yet an explanation, in the sense I mean. We get an explanation when we build a model which shows why those regularities hold, to the extent that they do. Here's an example: Boyle's law of gases is a well-confirmed, mathematically precise description of the relationship between the pressure and volume of a gas if the temperature doesn't change and the system is closed. But we also want an explanation of why the law holds, and to do that, we need a model of what a gas is. That's what we find in the kinetic theory of gases. The kinetic theory of gases explains why the gas laws hold, and why they hold under certain conditions and not others. That's what I was trying to get at, by trying to say that explanations are models of the causes of observable regularities.Kantian Naturalist
December 11, 2012
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F/N: Turtles, all the way doooown . . . !kairosfocus
December 11, 2012
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TA: Are you reading carefully, or simply snipping words out of context to make talking points? I must ask this, because your first error is a gross reading out of context. (And have you taken time to see who Eta Linneman was, that equips her to speak like that? As in, a former Bultmannian theology professor and member of the Society for NT Studies who applied the hyperskeptical a prioris that Lewontin documents for origins science, then had a life crash-burn, THEN personally met God in the face of Jesus, then rethought her worldview from the ground up? That is, she speaks, not from a prioris but from life transformation by the power of God in the face of Christ; as do millions across the world and for 2,000 years. So, your first problem with your attempted twistabout dismissal, is that if the human mind -- including any number of pivotal people in our civilisation's history -- is THAT delusional, then on what basis do you think that you are not delusional in your own worldview core claims?) Next, maybe you did not take time to glance at the linked above. You seem to be having worldview foundation troubles so I suggest you read here on in context and get back to us. Notice, particularly, the issue of turtles all the way down, vs turtles in a circle vs a well warranted set of first plausibles in light of live option alternatives examined on comparative difficulties. What is your worldview, and against which live options was it compared on factual adequacy, coherence and explanatory simplicity but not simplisticness -- cf. here on the primer I taught to students (and yes, those were seminary students). If your choice is evolutionary materialism-driven naturalism and scientism (the issue in this thread) how do you answer to the issue of self-referential incoherence and the undermining of the credibility of our minds, e.g here? In short, worldview choice is a little more involved than imagined- to- be- clever quips. KFkairosfocus
December 11, 2012
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Don’t you see the contradiction in your argument? If “clues” are essential to solving murders, and you rely on science to provide the clues, what other knowledge do you use? Do you have some other source of knowledge (other than clues provided by science) to solve murders? What is this knowledge? I will restrain myself from suggesting alternative sources.
No I don't see the contradiction. You still have to use your brain to interpret the clues. And not all clues require science. Like I said before, how do you know that you have all the clues necessary to come up with an accurate interpretation, an accurate assessment of the crime? Science can't help you there. Even though the evidence may point to one scenario, that still is not proof. The best you can say is that the evidence we currently have points to "X" as the most reasonable conclusion. Other interpretations may be possible and even accurate. No one is saying that science cannot help us arrive at knowledge, but it is not the only avenue. In the case of a crime, for instance, eye witness testimony is very important. We believe we have eye witness testimony in God's Word which should not be ignored. The point is that this type of science has so much more potential for error than the type you can do in the lab, repeat over and over again and verify with your own eyes. I don't think this point has escaped you.tjguy
December 11, 2012
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Kantian Naturalist If you want to claim that a priori knowledge shows that God must exist, go ahead and make the argument, but it depends on how the details of the theory of a priority get cashed out — it’s not a move one just gets to make for free. Are you suggesting that metaphysical commitments have implications?bevets
December 11, 2012
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Kantian Rationalist posted this:
Though I am willing to restrict use of the term “explanation” for a kind or class of empirical knowledge, namely, empirical knowledge in which a model or construction of the relevant causes shows why the observed regularities hold, to the extent that they do.
I am grateful for your epistemological condescension, but I defy you to parse that collection of words into a coherent sentence. What do you mean?timothya
December 11, 2012
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kairosfocus posted this, inside another quote but with his emphasis:
Due to the presuppositions that are adopted, critical reason loses sight of the fact that the Lord, our God, the Almighty, reigns.
Well there is your problem. It isn't a "fact" that your deity reigns. That is a presupposition, an assumption on your part, an assertion for which you have to provide evidence. Otherwise a reasonable sceptic will say you are just blowing smoke.timothya
December 11, 2012
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As well, this hypothetical infinite multiverse obviously begs the question of exactly which laws of physics, arising from which material basis, are telling all the other natural laws in physics what, how and when, to do the many precise unchanging things they do in these other universes? Exactly where is this universe creating machine to be located? Moreover, if an infinite number of other possible universes must exist in order to explain the fine tuning of this one, then why is it not also infinitely possible for a infinitely powerful and transcendent Creator to exist? Using the materialist same line of reasoning for an infinity of multiverses to 'explain away' the extreme fine-tuning of this one we can thusly surmise; If it is infinitely possible for God to exist then He, of 100% certainty, must exist no matter how small the probability is of His existence in one of these other infinity of universes, and since He certainly must exist in some possible world then he must exist in all possible worlds since all possibilities in all universes automatically become subject to Him since He is, by definition, transcendent and infinitely Powerful.,,, The preceding argument is actually a formal philosophical proof:
The Ontological Argument (The Introduction) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQPRqHZRP68 God Is Not Dead Yet – William Lane Craig – Page 4 The ontological argument. Anselm’s famous argument has been reformulated and defended by Alvin Plantinga, Robert Maydole, Brian Leftow, and others. God, Anselm observes, is by definition the greatest being conceivable. If you could conceive of anything greater than God, then that would be God. Thus, God is the greatest conceivable being, a maximally great being. So what would such a being be like? He would be all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good, and he would exist in every logically possible world. But then we can argue: 1. It is possible that a maximally great being (God) exists. 2. If it is possible that a maximally great being exists, then a maximally great being exists in some possible world. 3. If a maximally great being exists in some possible world, then it exists in every possible world. 4. If a maximally great being exists in every possible world, then it exists in the actual world. 5. Therefore, a maximally great being exists in the actual world. 6. Therefore, a maximally great being exists. 7. Therefore, God exists. Now it might be a surprise to learn that steps 2–7 of this argument are relatively uncontroversial. Most philosophers would agree that if God’s existence is even possible, then he must exist. So the whole question is: Is God’s existence possible? The atheist has to maintain that it’s impossible that God exists. He has to say that the concept of God is incoherent, like the concept of a married bachelor or a round square. But the problem is that the concept of God just doesn’t appear to be incoherent in that way. The idea of a being which is all-powerful, all knowing, and all-good in every possible world seems perfectly coherent. And so long as God’s existence is even possible, it follows that God must exist. http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2008/july/13.22.html?start=4
I like the comment about the ontological argument from Dr. Plantinga:
"God then is the Being that couldn't possibly not exit."
As weird as it may sound, this following video refines the Ontological argument into a proof that, because of the characteristic of ‘maximally great love’, God must exist in more than one person:
The Ontological Argument for the Triune God - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGVYXog8NUg
Verse and music: John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. MercyMe- "You Reign" Music Video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eow2hNlA-k&ob=av2ebornagain77
December 11, 2012
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This comment about the incompleteness theorem has always been very interesting for me:
“Anything you can draw a circle around cannot explain itself without referring to something outside the circle—something you have to assume but cannot prove.”
Because,,
Proverbs 8:26-27 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields, or the primeval dust of the world. When He prepared the heavens, I was there, when He drew a circle on the face of the deep, Planck satellite unveils the Universe -- now and then (w/ Video showing the mapping of the 'sphere' of the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation with the satellite) - 2010 http://phys.org/news197534140.html#nRlv The Known Universe by AMNH – video - (please note the 'centrality' of the Earth in the universe in the video) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17jymDn0W6U
It is also interesting to note just how precise, and mysterious, the 'roundness' of the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation is:
The Cosmic Background Radiation Excerpt: These fluctuations are extremely small, representing deviations from the average of only about 1/100,000 of the average temperature of the observed background radiation. The highly isotropic nature of the cosmic background radiation indicates that the early stages of the Universe were almost completely uniform. This raises two problems for (a naturalistic understanding of) the big bang theory. First, when we look at the microwave background coming from widely separated parts of the sky it can be shown that these regions are too separated to have been able to communicate with each other even with signals traveling at light velocity. Thus, how did they know to have almost exactly the same temperature? This general problem is called the horizon problem. Second, the present Universe is homogenous and isotropic, but only on very large scales. For scales the size of superclusters and smaller the luminous matter in the universe is quite lumpy, as illustrated in the following figure. ,,, Thus, the discovery of small deviations from smoothness (anisotopies) in the cosmic microwave background is welcome, for it provides at least the possibility for the seeds around which structure formed in the later Universe. However, as we shall see, we are still far from a quantitative understanding of how this came to be. http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/cosmology/cbr.html Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe - Main result Excerpt: The microwave background is very homogeneous in temperature (the relative variations from the mean, which presently is still 2.7 kelvins, are only of the order of 5x10?5.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilkinson_Microwave_Anisotropy_Probe#Main_result The best data we have [concerning the Big Bang] are exactly what I would have predicted, had I nothing to go on but the five books of Moses, the Psalms, the bible as a whole. Dr. Arno Penzias, Nobel Laureate in Physics - co-discoverer of the Cosmic Background Radiation - as stated to the New York Times on March 12, 1978 “Certainly there was something that set it all off,,, I can’t think of a better theory of the origin of the universe to match Genesis” Robert Wilson – Nobel laureate – co-discover Cosmic Background Radiation “There is no doubt that a parallel exists between the big bang as an event and the Christian notion of creation from nothing.” George Smoot – Nobel laureate in 2006 for his work on COBE
From initial entropic considerations, the precision of the initial isotropic (uniform) condition of the 'sphere of the universe' really stands out:
The Physics of the Small and Large: What is the Bridge Between Them? Roger Penrose Excerpt: "The time-asymmetry is fundamentally connected to with the Second Law of Thermodynamics: indeed, the extraordinarily special nature (to a greater precision than about 1 in 10^10^123, in terms of phase-space volume) can be identified as the "source" of the Second Law (Entropy)." How special was the big bang? - Roger Penrose Excerpt: This now tells us how precise the Creator's aim must have been: namely to an accuracy of one part in 10^10^123. (from the Emperor’s New Mind, Penrose, pp 339-345 - 1989) "I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing." Alan Sandage (preeminent Astronomer)
The Theist holds that God is 'outside the circle of the universe' and the Theist has some pretty impressive empirical evidence to back that assertion up:
Quantum Evidence for a Theistic Big Bang https://docs.google.com/document/d/1agaJIWjPWHs5vtMx5SkpaMPbantoP471k0lNBUXg0Xo/edit
Whereas the materialist/naturalist, because of the extreme fine tuning of the universe's laws finds himself in a fairly embarrassing situation trying to 'explain away' that extreme fine tuning:
Infinitely wrong - Robert Sheldon PhD. physics - November 2010 Excerpt: So you see, they gleefully cry, even [1 / 10^(10^123)] x ? = 1! Even the most improbable events can be certain if you have an infinite number of tries.,,,Ahh, but does it? I mean, zero divided by zero is not one, nor is 1/? x ? = 1. Why? Well for starters, it assumes that the two infinities have the same cardinality. http://procrustes.blogtownhall.com/2010/11/05/infinitely_wrong.thtml Baron Münchhausen and the Self-Creating Universe: Roger Penrose has calculated that the entropy of the big bang itself, in order to give rise to the life-permitting universe we observe, must be fine-tuned to one part in e10exp(123)?10^10exp(123). Such complex specified conditions do not arise by chance, even in a string-theoretic multiverse with 10^500 different configurations of laws and constants, so an intelligent cause may be inferred. What is more, since it is the big bang itself that is fine-tuned to this degree, the intelligence that explains it as an effect must be logically prior to it and independent of it – in short, an immaterial intelligence that transcends matter, energy and space-time. (of note: 10^10^123 minus 10^500 is still, for all practical purposes, 10^10^123) http://www.evolutionnews.org/2007/06/baron_munchausen_and_the_selfc.html
The only other theory possible for the universe’s creation, other than a God-centered hypothesis, is some purposeless materialistic theory based on blind chance. Materialistic blind chance tries to escape being completely crushed, by the overwhelming weight of evidence for design in the fine-tuning of the universe, by appealing to an infinity of other un-testable universes in which all other possibilities have been played out. Yet there is absolutely no hard physical evidence to support this blind chance conjecture (Penrose; Woit). In fact, the 'infinite multiverse' conjecture suffers from some very serious, and deep, flaws of logic.
The Absurdity of Inflation, String Theory & The Multiverse - Dr. Bruce Gordon - video http://vimeo.com/34468027 The End Of Materialism? - Dr. Bruce Gordon * In the multiverse, anything can happen for no reason at all. * In other words, the materialist is forced to believe in random miracles as a explanatory principle. * In a Theistic universe, nothing happens without a reason. Miracles are therefore intelligently directed deviations from divinely maintained regularities, and are thus expressions of rational purpose. * Scientific materialism is (therefore) epistemically self defeating: it makes scientific rationality impossible.
bornagain77
December 11, 2012
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TA: It may be worth your while to see the course of theology in the academy over the past several centuries as I outlined here. In particular, it is worth reflecting on the late Eta Linneman's acerbic but sadly apt note:
Theology as it is taught in universities all over the world . . . is based on the historical-critical method . . . . [which] is not just the foundation for the exegetical disciplines. It also decides what the systematician can say . . . It determines procedure in Christian education, homiletics and ethics . . . . Research is conducted ut si Deus non daretur (“as if there were no God”). That means the reality of God is excluded from consideration from the start . . . Statements in Scripture regarding place, time, sequences of events and persons are accepted only insofar as they fit in with established assumptions and theories . . . . Since other religions have their scriptures, one cannot assume the Bible is somehow unique and superior to them . . . . It is taken for granted that the words of the Bible and God’s word are not identical . . . the New Testament is pitted against the Old Testament, assuming that the God of the New Testament is different from that of the Old, since Jesus is said to have introduced a new concept of God . . . . Since the inspiration of Scripture is not accepted, neither can it be assumed that the individual books of Scripture complement each other. Using this procedure one finds in the Bible only a handful of unrelated literary creations . . . . Since the content of biblical writings is seen as merely the creation of theological writers, any given verse is nothing more than a non-binding, human theological utterance. For historical-critical theology, critical reason decides what is reality in the Bible and what cannot be reality; and this decision is made on the basis of the everyday experience accessible to every person [i.e. the miraculous aspect of Scripture, and modern reports of miracles -- regardless of claimed attestation -- are dismissed as essentially impossible to verify and/or as merely “popular religious drivel”] . . . . Due to the presuppositions that are adopted, critical reason loses sight of the fact that the Lord, our God, the Almighty, reigns.[3: Historical Criticism of the Bible: Methodology or Ideology? (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 1993), pp. 83 – 88 as excerpted. Emphases in original; parenthetical notes in square brackets: [ ].]
That sort of hyperskepticism is what EA alludes to. If you need to go back to roots and lay again your foundation, I suggest the outline here (which pivots on adequately explaining the credible "minimal" historical facts surrounding Jesus), or the more detailed 101 here and here. KFkairosfocus
December 11, 2012
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KN: Pardon, but the chief problem, as you know, is that evolutionary materialism, the cultural programme and worldview that dominates our civilisation at this time (including science -- it loves to dress itself up in the holy lab coat) sees the world as unfolding by blind chance and mechanical necessity from hydrogen to humans [via cosmological, chemical, bio-macro and finally cultural evo . . . ], is that its deriving forces are utterly irrelevant to and thus unable to adequately account for the credibly knowing, reasoning, understanding, deciding mind. (Cf. here for my most recent summary presentation at 101 level on this issue.) As just one sampler, here is Patricia Churchland (via Plantinga):
Boiled down to essentials, a nervous system enables the organism to succeed in . . . feeding, fleeing, fighting, and reproducing. The principal chore of nervous systems is to get the body parts where they should be in order that the organism may survive . . . . Improvements in sensorimotor control confer an evolutionary advantage: a fancier style of representing is advantageous so long as it is geared to the organism's way of life and enhances the organism's chances of survival [[Churchland's emphasis]. Truth, whatever that is [[ --> let's try, from Aristotle in Metaphysics, 1011b: "that which says of what is that it is, and of what is not that it is not" . . . ], definitely takes the hindmost.
Similarly, there is a linked breakdown on morals that also involves a breakdown of the ability to make rational decisions (which are exactly what we need for logical thinking, warrant of knowledge and sound decisions). Provine's well known 1998 Darwin Day presentation at U Tenn is an apt example:
Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent . . . . The first 4 implications are so obvious to modern naturalistic evolutionists that I will spend little time defending them. Human free will, however, is another matter. Even evolutionists have trouble swallowing that implication. I will argue that humans are locally determined systems that make choices. They have, however, no free will . . .
As I have argued, these are illustrations of a worldview foundational challenge. That is, for both mind and morals, there is but one place that adequate grounds for both the credible mind and the binding force of ought can be introduced -- the basis. (And yes, I am well aware of the arguments that coherence is enough for a worldview, via rafts under partial [re-]construction metaphors and whatnot. To all such, I point out that there is an implicit foundation that is not being highlighted but without which there would be no raft, no space-ship etc. It is clear to me that worldviews face the challenge of either turtles all the way down, or turtles in a circle or a final, finitely remote Atlas-turtle strong enough to bear the weight. Such avoids circularity by addressing the choice of worldview basis -- at community/paradigm level -- on comparative difficulties. Yes, I know, I know, I also know that you champion an alternative Kantian Naturalism, that you think bridges the gaps just outlined. That may be a minority view, but it is not the 800 lb gorilla we need to deal with just now. And, I am by no means satisfied that you have bridged the gaps successfully, per the raft that floats on the supporting ocean and requires the undergirding forces and laws of floatation to do so. BTW, my favoured metaphor for worldviews -- and for curriculum or web site development too -- is a spiral spider web with support lines tied to anchor-points. It is coherent, must answer to the anchoring facts, and must be adequate to do its job of explanation, neither simplistic nor an ad hoc patchwork.) The issue comes down to comparative difficulties across factual adequacy, coherence and simple but not simplistic and comprehensive explanatory power. (Which, also happens to hold as an ideal challenge for origins science theories that seek to reconstruct the world of the remote, unobserved, and unobservable past that we can only assess on traces in the present that we must weave into a comprehensive explanatory framework on dynamics known to be adequate to cause consequences that are directly comparable to the traces; per Newton's four rules of scientific investigation. The critique you have linked is inadequate to address this, as is to be expected, sadly, of the NCSE. The key gap in their account, is that hey seem impervious to the obvious little matter that we were not there in the remote past of origins and are necessarily inferring on traces in the present. Only such dynamics as have been shown adequate to cause such consequences are reasonable as explanations. For specific instance, no-one has shown that FSCO/I can be produced by blind chance and mechanical necessity in any form. FSCO/I is pervasive int eh world of life and is central to the accounting for novel body plans that credibly require 10 - 100+ mn bits of novel genetic info, which accords exactly with the search-space needle in the haystack challenge that has long been highlighted, where we have the further point that multi-part functionality that depends on fairly specific organisation of matching parts is commonly and on much experience well known to come in small and isolated zones of the field of possible configs of the same components or their constituent materials. The ONLY observed cause for FSCO/I in its various forms, is intelligence. Therefore we are well warranted to infer on signs through best, empirically and analytically grounded explanation to intelligence as credible cause in the remote past. Which is of course the point of design theory.) Going back to roots of worldviews, it will be easy to see that mind and morals as well as a world of life chock full of FSCO/I and a finely tuned cosmos that facilitates C-chemistry aqueous medium cell based life alike can reasonably be explained on a cosmic scale architect who purposed to create such intelligent biological life as we experience. Add in that such is a necessary being with inherent goodness and that minded life should be under moral government makes excellent sense. In short, generic ethical theism rooted in a good, necessary, intelligent and powerful architect and maker of the world including ourselves, is a solid framework for a worldview. When it comes to the Christian form of that worldview, my 101 level grounds for selecting such (in outline) would be here. What is the connexion of all this to science? Science is of course a rational-empirical exercise that -- as the endarkened and destructively abusive science of the Nazi era showed beyond all reasonable doubt -- is critically dependent on the ethical behaviour of scientists as a community. So, it needs to be adequately grounded as a worldview and cultural programme. The Judaeo-Christian worldview not only provided the vision that fired the passion to understand the world that was expected to be intelligible and rational because of its intelligent Architect, but served to provide the ethical framework in which -- until the Nazis and their forebears came along from mid C19 -- science could safely operate as a profession and cultural project. That is obviously still relevant today. Evolutionary materialism, by contrast, is inherently and inescapably self-refuting by undermining the mind, and it is patently amoral and thus morally bankrupt. It has nothing in it that can stand up to the might and manipulation make 'right' nihilists who are already pounding on our doors. But it is not just this form of naturalistic philosophy that faces such challenges. Those forms that hope to isolate mind and morality in a circle that somehow is regarded as "emergent" as a brute fact in our world, are equally groundless, and face unbridgeable gaps. Given the Alinskyite rules for radicals nihilists and would be Nietzschean superman political messiahs pounding on our doors and demanding admission as those with the magic bullet solutions to the "unprecedented" crises our civilisation faces, we had better have a good, cogent and convincing reason to keep the door barred. (And, not to mention the Delilahs within the doors.) "Samson, the Philistines are upon you!" KFkairosfocus
December 11, 2012
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As to a priori assumptions and Godel's incompleteness theorem:
Taking God Out of the Equation - Biblical Worldview - by Ron Tagliapietra - January 1, 2012 Excerpt: Kurt Gödel (1906–1978) proved that no logical systems (if they include the counting numbers) can have all three of the following properties. 1. Validity . . . all conclusions are reached by valid reasoning. 2. Consistency . . . no conclusions contradict any other conclusions. 3. Completeness . . . all statements made in the system are either true or false. The details filled a book, but the basic concept was simple and elegant. He summed it up this way: “Anything you can draw a circle around cannot explain itself without referring to something outside the circle—something you have to assume but cannot prove.” For this reason, his proof is also called the Incompleteness Theorem. Kurt Gödel had dropped a bomb on the foundations of mathematics. Math could not play the role of God as infinite and autonomous. It was shocking, though, that logic could prove that mathematics could not be its own ultimate foundation. Christians should not have been surprised. The first two conditions are true about math: it is valid and consistent. But only God fulfills the third condition. Only He is complete and therefore self-dependent (autonomous). God alone is “all in all” (1 Corinthians 15:28), “the beginning and the end” (Revelation 22:13). God is the ultimate authority (Hebrews 6:13), and in Christ are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge (Colossians 2:3). http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v7/n1/equation#
Kurt Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem as it applies to material particles and the universe:
Kurt Gödel - Incompleteness Theorem - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/8462821/
Godel's Incompleteness Theorem, is shown to apply not only to axiom systems but also to material objects in this following video:
Alan Turing & Kurt Godel - Incompleteness Theorem and Human Intuition - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/8516356
Stated in Formal Language (not 'word games' language):
Gödel’s theorem says: “Any effectively generated theory capable of expressing elementary arithmetic cannot be both consistent and complete. In particular, for any consistent, effectively generated formal theory that proves certain basic arithmetic truths, there is an arithmetical statement that is true, but not provable in the theory.” *The Church-Turing thesis says that a physical system can express elementary arithmetic just as a human can, and that the arithmetic of a Turing Machine (computer) is not provable within the system and is likewise subject to incompleteness. *Any physical system subjected to measurement is capable of expressing elementary arithmetic. (This extends Godel's incompleteness theorem to elementary particles of the universe and is born out in quantum computation) *Therefore the universe is capable of expressing elementary arithmetic and like both mathematics itself and a Turing machine, is incomplete.
i.e. Any material particle you can draw a circle around cannot explain its own continued existence within space-time. Moreover, this incompleteness principle for material particles has now been born out on the empirical level: ,,,Quantum Mechanics has now been extended by Anton Zeilinger, and team, to falsify local realism (reductive materialism) without even using quantum entanglement to do it:
‘Quantum Magic’ Without Any ‘Spooky Action at a Distance’ – June 2011 Excerpt: A team of researchers led by Anton Zeilinger at the University of Vienna and the Institute for Quantum Optics and Quantum Information of the Austrian Academy of Sciences used a system which does not allow for entanglement, and still found results which cannot be interpreted classically. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110624111942.htm
i.e. Material particles cannot explain their own continued existence within space-time without referring to a 'non-local', beyond space and time, cause to explain their continued existence within space-time. Of note, Theists have always maintained that God, who is beyond space and time, sustains and upholds this universe in its continued existence, whereas materialists, ever since the Greeks, held that the 'atom' was the foundation of reality i.e. that the material particle was 'self-sustaining', i.e. 'eternal'.
Revelation 4:10-11 They lay their crowns before the throne and say: "You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being."
Further empirical confirmation of Godel's incompleteness theorem as it applies to the universe is found here:
“All the evidence we have says that the universe had a beginning.” - Cosmologist Alexander Vilenkin of Tufts University in Boston (paper delivered at Hawking's 70th birthday party) https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/vilenkins-verdict-all-the-evidence-we-have-says-that-the-universe-had-a-beginning/ "Every solution to the equations of general relativity guarantees the existence of a singular boundary for space and time in the past." (Hawking, Penrose, Ellis) - 1970
As well, Godel's incompleteness theorem, since it does indeed apply to ANY material system in the universe, and the material universe itself, is excellent logical proof for Craig's Kalam Cosmological argument, as well I hold it as an excellent logical proof for Aquinas's First, Second, and Third way of his 'the five ways': notes:
Thomas Aquinas, “The Five Ways” Part I. The Argument from Motion. (Thomas argues that since everything that moves is moved by another, there must thereby exist an Unmoved Mover.) Part II. The Argument from Efficient Cause. (The sequence of causes which make up this universe must have a First Cause.) Part III. The Argument to Necessary Being. (Since all existent things depend upon other things for their existence, there must exist at least one thing that is not dependent and so is a Necessary Being.) http://philosophy.lander.edu/intro/aquinas.shtml "The 'First Mover' is necessary for change occurring at each moment." Michael Egnor - Aquinas’ First Way http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/09/jerry_coyne_and_aquinas_first.html How Did the Universe Begin? (The Kalam Cosmological Argument by William Lane Craig) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N80AjfHTvQY William Lane Craig - Hilbert's Hotel - The Absurdity Of An Infinite Regress Of 'Things' - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3994011/ Kurt Godel was well aware of the implications of his theorem as the following quotes make clear: Quotes by Kurt Godel: "The brain is a computing machine connected with a spirit." [6.1.19] "Consciousness is connected with one unity. A machine is composed of parts." [6.1.21] "I don’t think the brain came in the Darwinian manner. In fact, it is disprovable. Simple mechanism can’t yield the brain. I think the basic elements of the universe are simple. Life force is a primitive element of the universe and it obeys certain laws of action. These laws are not simple, and they are not mechanical." [6.2.12] "The world in which we live is not the only one in which we shall live,,,." "Materialism is false." quotes taken from - Hao Wang’s supplemental biography of Gödel, A Logical Journey, MIT Press, 1996
bornagain77
December 11, 2012
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Kantian makes a weird comment here:
(3) There’s no obvious move from a priori knowledge to theism. It all depends on what the theory of a priori knowledge is. There’s a range of views about a priori knowledge perfectly consistent with metaphysical naturalism, e.g. thinking of a priori judgments as expressing the constitutive rules of a particular language-game. Then the judgments are necessary “internal” to the game, so to speak, but there’s nothing necessary about the fact that we play that language-game. If you want to claim that a priori knowledge shows that God must exist, go ahead and make the argument, but it depends on how the details of the theory of a priority get cashed out — it’s not a move one just gets to make for free.
So you think you are 'playing that language game' kantian??? Now finally your sophistry makes some sense! It's all a game to you to bend words to fit your preconceived philosophical bias. Thanks for clearing that up. :)bornagain77
December 11, 2012
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