Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

“Scientific” vs “Supernatural”

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An invitation to provide initial posts for discussion here at UD was recently extended to me.  My name is Donald M and for those who have posted here for a while, I’m probably not a stranger.  I’m a strong proponent of ID and I have serious doubts and reservations about several aspects of Darwinian evolution.  My main area of interest is in the Philosophy of Science and the philosophical assumptions of science and scientific practice.  While I am not a working scientist, I do hold a Masters degree in a scientific field.  I’m grateful for the opportunity to share some thoughts here, and hopefully provide some fodder for useful discussion among participants. 

With that brief intro, I’ll dive into my first contribution.

The January issue of Scientific American is focused entirely on the Evolution of Evolution. There are several articles on different aspects of Darwin and evolution. The article I want to focus on here is a critical piece by Eugenie Scott and Glenn Branch of the NCSE (National Center for Saving Evolution Science Education). Entitled The Latest Face of Creationism in the Classroom, the article laments the fact that Science still has to deal with “creationism”…the favored term over Intelligent Design for purely pejorative reasons.

Indeed the comment right under the title says “Creationists who want religious ideas taught as scientific fact in public schools continue to adapt to courtroom defeats by hiding their true aims under ever changing guises.” In the body of the article Branch and Scott lament that Lousiana Governor Bobby Jindal signed the Lousiana Science Education Act into law this past June, over the strenuous objections of scientists. Convinced a creationist conspiracy is afoot they opine:

As always in the contentious history of evolution education in the U.S., the devil is in the details. The law explicitly targets evolution, which is unsurprising—for lurking in the background of the law is creationism, the rejection of a scientific explanation of the history of life in favor of a supernatural account involving a personal creator. Indeed, to mutate Dobzhansky’s dictum, nothing about the Louisiana law makes sense except in the light of creationism.

Laying aside any real or imagined conspiracies on the part of “creationists”, I want to focus on the contrast Branch and Scott make between a “scientific explanation” and a “supernatural account” of the history of life. There are so many assumptions built into this particular contrast its hard to know where to begin. First the clear implication is that a scientific explanation represents fact whereas the supernatural account represents some fuzzy religious idea. In other words, its an epistomological assumption about what represents true knowledge (science) and what does not (religion).

Secondly is the assumption that the naturalistic worldview of science takes precedent over the theistic worldview of anyone who purports that a supernatural creator had something to do with bringing about the existence of life on earth. So much for methodological naturalism. Clearly full blown philosophical naturalism is equated to science here, since the contrast is between science and the supernatural.

Third, is the unspoken assumption that somehow the science classroom is a worldview-free zone.  Since they’ve contrasted science with supernatural, they clearly equate science with naturalism, so the real issue is which worldview ought to prevail in the science classroom and why. I wonder what Branch and Scott might say about a Bill to promote the teaching of philosophical naturalism in the disguise of science in the classroom?

Comments
The preponderance of the inference of design in nature is evidence indeed that design in the sense of the design of nature MUST be supernatural because nature can not do it, nature only steals and destroys but does not create. of course the Christian has an explanation for this phenomenon while the "Alien" explanation does not, while not encumbering the same infinite regress that who made the aliens raises. of course who designed the biblical god is a silly question you can't design the designer.Sola Raison
December 16, 2008
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Martinez, The point I'm about to make is something not to be taken rudely at all. I'm just hoping to point something out. Dawkin's believes that life could have possibly been planted on earth by aliens, yet he does not believe in God or gods. Belief that life was planted by aliens isn't supernatural, but it is ID. So I would say that in general ID is about directed VS undirected, but it doesn't have to do with the supernatural. (Although it can, in such cases as ID in relation to the universe as a whole.)Domoman
December 16, 2008
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Joseph: "Again the debate is NOT 'natural' vs 'supernatural', it is 'undirected' vs 'directed'. I alluded to Johnson in message #17, now the full quote: Evolution is "founded on 'naturalism,' which is the doctrine that 'nature is all there is.' If nature is all there is, then nature had to have the ability to do its own creating. Darwinian evolution is a theory about how nature might have done this, without any assistance from a supernatural Creator" (Phillip Johnson 1997:15,16). Joseph: "It is very rude to come to a discussion with only red herrings and strawmen to offer." Again, I supported everything in message #17. You have opened your mouth foolishly. "Supernatural" simply means that God is involved with nature. The Creationism-ID v. Darwinism debate is all about supernatural v. natural (= non-involvement of Theos). RayR. Martinez
December 16, 2008
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Joseph: "Again the debate is NOT 'natural' vs 'supernatural', it is 'undirected' vs 'directed'. "Directed" implies and corresponds to Director (= supernatural, God). "Undirected" implies and corresponds to unguided material forces (= Materialism, Atheism, non-existence of God, supernatural). This is why all Atheists are Darwinists. But you have admitted ignorance concerning Philosophy, upthread. RayR. Martinez
December 16, 2008
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Joseph: "It is very rude to come to a discussion with only red herrings and strawmen to offer." You are ignorant, unable to refute. This explains your angry comment, gross misrepresentation of my message. Anyone can scroll back and see that my post was quality. RayR. Martinez
December 16, 2008
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Dear Donald M. I have read your commentary. Your points are expressed with crystal clear clarity and your message or conclusion is spot-on. RayR. Martinez
December 16, 2008
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Creationism-ID says Divine power is operating in nature causing biological production (Genesis 1 & 2); hence, the observation of Intelligence and Design seen in every aspect of nature.
ID has nothing to do with the Bible. If the Bible were refuted tomorrow ID would not also be refuted. However Creation would be severly damaged. And ID does NOT require the belief in "God". Again the debate is NOT "natural" vs "supernatural", it is "undirected" vs "directed". It is very rude to come to a discussion with only red herrings and strawmen to offer.Joseph
December 16, 2008
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So you mean to say that God is not supernatural?
I didn't say anything about "God". The designer of the universe and living organisms a) need not be "God" and b) need not even be the same designer.
If God created the laws of physics that seems to be pretty supernatural to me.
To me it would only be supernatural if those laws are/ were violated. And to me you cannot violate that which doesn't yet exist. But heck I'm not a philosophizer...Joseph
December 16, 2008
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Barry Arrington: "....an ID proponent does not care if the groundrules are limited to “natural” explanations. As we have discussed many times here at UD,....nothing about life appears to require a supernatural explanation. Accordingly, I am not sure what your point is." The **most basic distinction** between Creationism-ID and Darwinism is causation or agency. Creationism-ID says Divine power is operating in nature causing biological production (Genesis 1 & 2); hence, the observation of Intelligence and Design seen in every aspect of nature. Darwinism says Divine power, Intelligence and Design, is completely absent from nature (Dawkins 1986), only natural or material causation or agency (= Materialism) is operating in nature causing biological production. Darwinism, the product of Materialism-Naturalism, says nature produced itself without ANY supernatural assistance (Phillip Johnson, 1997). Creationism-ID says God is involved with nature (= Theism). Darwinism-Evolution says God is not involved with nature (= Atheism). The term "natural" since 1859-1879 means God/ID/supernatural is absent from nature. This is why ALL pro-evolution literature says that evolution is a "natural" process. Otherwise the claim is meaningless, existing without relevance. Therefore your contention that ID does not oppose "natural" explanations is *fundamental* error. God is not an absentee landlord (Dembski 1999). RayR. Martinez
December 16, 2008
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By the way, can we get Gerry Rzeppa back? He has some interesting views on this topic, and has written about it hereWilliam Wallace
December 16, 2008
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Joseph, So you mean to say that God is not supernatural? I don't necessarily think this is wrong, but I don't know what you mean by "above" or "over." If God created the laws of physics that seems to be pretty supernatural to me. But no one would say that a game programmer is supernatural with respect to their computer game's environment (or would they?).Collin
December 16, 2008
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Does intelligence create complex specified information, or does it not? To say that the output of an intelligence cannot be accounted for in terms of its operation on inputs is to say that the intelligence is creating something. Making intelligence natural by pointing at entities around you and calling them intelligent does not imply that the action you are attributing to them is anything but creation. ID advocates are constantly pointing out that computers merely "shuffle" information -- that information is conserved. And "specified complexity cannot be purchased without intelligence." What is the nature of this "purchase" if it is not creation?Sal Gal
December 16, 2008
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StuartHarris @11, Though not so relevant to the present article, the same comments could be made regarding National Geographic. I have an archive going back to the 1960s, and the change is palpable. I broke off my subscription about two years ago.Stephen Morris
December 16, 2008
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The problem with Dawkins et al is that if God did announce his existence naturally, such that, for example, every flower sang praises to him, their version of "science" is incapable of detecting it. How could it?William Wallace
December 16, 2008
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The fall of Scientific American in the past ten or fifteen years has been a sad spectacle to watch. When I was a kid and adolescent in the 60's and 70's, I devoured as much of each issue I could understand, and the magazine had a whole lot to do with my education, especially in physics and astronomy. It is now a slick, primarily socio-political publication with articles centered on global warming, greenie appeals, left-wing studies on the economy, and the blatherings of the dim-witted Eugenie Scott and the self described “skeptic” Michael Shermer. I encourage all UD readers to find some thirty or forty year old issues or reprints of SciAm and see what real popular scientific publishing once was. You'll learn a lot of real science too.StuartHarris
December 16, 2008
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Collin, Think of it likw this: Supernatural means above or over the laws of nature. Since the lkaws of nature didn't exist prior to the origin of nature the designer of nature cannot be "above" nor "over" them. And that is also why the argument is "directed" vs "undirected".Joseph
December 16, 2008
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Since our arguments are directed at evolutionists, wouldn't it make sense to use their own standards of what is supernatural or naturalistic against them? Here are the two most notable standards: 1. “In science, explanations must be based on naturally occurring phenomena. Natural causes are, in principle, reproducible and therefore can be checked independently by others.” “Science, Evolution, and Creationism” 2008, National Academy of Sciences (NAS), The National Academies Press, third edition, page 10. http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=11876 2. The Scientific Method We use both of these to assess the origin of the universe, origin of life, and common descent: http://www.whoisyourcreator.com/origin_of_the_universe.html http://www.whoisyourcreator.com/evolution_of_life.html http://www.whoisyourcreator.com/common_descent.html We also assess the Genesis Account of Creation. NOTE the emphasis on the ‘Source’ being the center of the issue: http://www.whoisyourcreator.com/genesis_account_of_creation.htmlwhoisyourcreator
December 16, 2008
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Maybe God is natural and we are subnatural. I am sympathetic with DonaldM's argument. We can't let others define ID as supernatural per se, nor can we allow others to enforce philosophical naturalism. I don't know if ID requires supernaturalism; I think it doesn't because you can detect human design in crime, computer science, etc and are we supernatural? (maybe). In the end there is nothing that proves, through science, that naturalism is true or that supernaturalism is true. It's philosophy.Collin
December 16, 2008
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The sad part about this "supernatural" vs. "natural" is that the people siding with "natural" don't understand that their position regresses to the SAME point as ID. And seeing that the designer of the cosmos existed befoere the cosmos and therefor before the laws of nature went into existence, said designer could not be above those laws as they did not exist. Ya see I can play (also) and win pertaining to semantic quibbles. I can hear the lawyers question now: "Ms Forrest, you claim that ID requires the supernatural, yet your position regresses to the same point. Does that mean that your position also requires the supernatural?" BTW it is good to have the power to my house restored! Mother nature hits us hard last week and my power was coming from a generator. IOW ID to the rescue!Joseph
December 16, 2008
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Barry
Donald, an ID proponent does not care if the groundrules are limited to “natural” explanations. As we have discussed many times here at UD, (see, e.g., here: https://uncommondescent.com.....al-powers/), nothing about life appears to require a supernatural explanation. Accordingly, I am not sure what your point is.
I'm certainly not making any argument that ID must refer to supernatural agency. Rather, I'm challenging the idea put forth by Branch and Scott in the referenced article that the contrasting term for "scientific" is "supernatural". Its another example of sneaking philosophical naturalism into the definition of science. bfast
What I heard from DonaldM is that “natural” and “supernatural” are not crystal-clear terms. If the line between the natural and the supernatural cannot be vividly defined, how can Science stay on one side of the line.
In principle I agree. However, in this particular instance Branch and Scott make clear that they are using the term 'supernatural' to reference a personal creator. Also, by using the term 'creationism', they are clearly referencing a theistic view. That's all well and good. But by contrasting 'scientific' with 'supernatural' so construed, the clear implications are what I point out in the OP. The main worry is that the Lousiana law (and others like it) are intended to 'sneak' some version of creationism with all its supernatural implications into the science classroom. However, they haven't the slightest concern about sneaking philosophical naturalism into the science classroom. In fact, they would even deny that that's the case. But defending that becomes more problematic when they contrast 'scientific' with 'supernatural'.DonaldM
December 16, 2008
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I'd be interested to learn what the strategy is behind the new meme from Dave and Barry that "nothing about life appears to require a supernatural explanation." Any ideas?allanius
December 16, 2008
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Barry - To a materialist, the realities of consciousness and choice are viewed as "supernatural". Personally, I reserve "supernatural" for the work of God, but for materialists there is plenty that I consider natural that they would consider super-natural.johnnyb
December 16, 2008
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oops, "cosmological principle" should read "strong anthropic principle".bFast
December 15, 2008
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What I heard from DonaldM is that "natural" and "supernatural" are not crystal-clear terms. If the line between the natural and the supernatural cannot be vividly defined, how can Science stay on one side of the line. Dawkins suggests that it is scientifically acceptible to consider that an intelligent non-supernatural agent created life on earth, but he refuses to consider himself an IDer. Here in ID-land, if it were established that a non-supernatural intelligent being brought forth life on earth, we would all say, "see, I told yea." Even the queston of who instantiated the big bang complete with cosmological principle, we must conclude that the intelligent agent involved must be outside of our universe (or possibly within our universe, but in our future), yet it still could be debated whether this intelligent agent is, of necessity, "supernatural".bFast
December 15, 2008
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Donald, an ID proponent does not care if the groundrules are limited to "natural" explanations. As we have discussed many times here at UD, (see, e.g., here: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/what-aspect-of-life-on-the-earth-requires-supernatural-powers/), nothing about life appears to require a supernatural explanation. Accordingly, I am not sure what your point is.Barry Arrington
December 15, 2008
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