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Selective Horrid Doubt

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Over the last several days I have been performing a little experiment.  See here and here.  I have quoted several prominent Darwinists for the proposition that natural selection selects for fitness, not for truth.  See the appendix at the end of this post for a sample of some of these quotations.  I think Patricia Churchland puts the proposition most starkly.  Evolution selects for survival and “[t]ruth, whatever that is, definitely takes the hindmost.”

Here is the nub of my experiment:  I was testing to see if – given this uncontroversial aspect of the theory – any of the materialists would express even the tiniest, slightest, minutest doubts regarding the truth of their own views.  Several materialist commentators jumped into to the comment threads.  And they did not disappoint.  Not a single one of them picked up on the seemingly rather obvious point that, in principle, statements like Churchlands’ apply to Darwinian theory as much as they do to truth claims materialists deride or hold in contempt, such as belief in God.

This is not surprising.  Indeed, our Darwinist friends are acting perfectly consistently with a tradition that goes all the way back to Darwin himself.  In an 1881 letter Darwin wrote:

Nevertheless you have expressed my inward conviction, though far more vividly and clearly than I could have done that the Universe is not the result of chance. But then with me the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man’s mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey’s mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?

Darwin clearly understood the implications of his own evolutionary materialist ideas with respect to contemplating whether God exists.  We are just jumped up apes who have deluded ourselves into believing we have libertarian free will and can use that free will to grasp onto truth and reject error.  But at the end of the day can we really trust our monkey minds when they grapple with the big questions like whether God exists?

Here’s the funny thing though.  While Darwin understood these epistemological implications of his theory perfectly well, the historical record is altogether devoid of any instance where he extended those implications to his own theory.  Exactly like the Darwinians who comment on UD’s posts, Darwin had “selective horrid doubt.”  He doubted whether his mind could contemplate God.  But he apparently never entertained the slightest doubt that his mind could contemplate deep time and the origin of species.  Isn’t that odd?

C.S. Lewis understood what Darwin apparently did not (or at least did not acknowledge).  He wrote:

If the solar system was brought about by an accidental collision, then the appearance of organic life on this planet was also an accident, and the whole evolution of Man was an accident too. If so, then all our present thoughts are mere accidents—the accidental by-product of the movement of atoms. And this holds for the thoughts of the materialists and astronomers as well as for anyone else’s. But if their thoughts—i.e. of materialism and astronomy—are merely accidental by-products, why should we believe them to be true? I see no reason for believing that one accident should be able to give me a correct account of all the other accidents. It’s like expecting that the accidental shape taken by the splash when you upset a milkjug should give you a correct account of how the jug was made and why it was upset.

Evolutionary materialists have a severe epistemological dilemma:  If their propositions about the universe are true, there would be no way for us to know they are true.  Evolutionary materialism saws off the epistemological branch on which it attempts to sit.

Evolutionary materialist say our ideas about God are evolutionary adaptations.  In other words, organisms that hold these ideas were more fit, because the ideas gave them a survival advantage.  What was that survival advantage?  Well, make up your own just so story.  Yours is as good as anyone else’s.  Fear of God’s punishment caused people to develop moral codes, which led to increased cooperation and this enhanced their chances of survival.  Other stories have been advanced.

Can we make up a just so story for the evolutionary rise of materialism?  Of course.  Give it a try.  Materialism arose as the next stage of evolution because [insert your just so story here].

The funny thing is that while materialism’s epistemological dilemma is glaringly obvious, I have yet to see a materialist who will acknowledge it about this own ideas.   No room for doubt about our beautiful materialist ideas.  As with Darwin before them, their horrid doubt is reserved for other people’s ideas.

 

APPENDIX

“[Our] brains were shaped for fitness, not for truth. Sometimes truth is adaptive, but sometimes it is not.”  Steven Pinker

“Sometimes you are more likely to survive and propagate if you believe a falsehood than if you believe the truth.”  Eric Baum

“According to evolution by natural selection, an organism that sees reality as it is will never be more fit than an organism of equal complexity that sees none of reality but is just tuned to fitness.  Never.”  Donald Hoffman

“We are anything but a mechanism set up to perceive the truth for its own sake. Rather, we have evolved a nervous system that acts in the interest of our gonads, and one attuned to the demands of reproductive competition. If fools are more prolific than wise men, then to that degree folly will be favored by selection. And if ignorance aids in obtaining a mate, then men and women will tend to be ignorant.”  Michael Ghiselin

“[N]atural selection does not care about truth; it cares only about reproductive success” Stephen Stich

“Improvements in sensorimotor control confer an evolutionary advantage: a fancier style of representing is advantageous so long as it is geared to the organism’s way of life and enhances the organism’s chances of survival. Truth, whatever that is, definitely takes the hindmost.”  Patricia Churchland

“We are jumped-up apes, and our brains were only designed to understand the mundane details of how to survive in the stone-age African savannah.”  Richard Dawkins

 

 

 

Comments
@Origenes
But by all means, feel free to explain how we could obtain the contents of theories from observations, in detail. This is a well known problem and if you solve it, you’d be quite famous!
Still waiting....critical rationalist
October 7, 2017
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“Not based on sensory input”, means the contents of our theories does not come from experience as opposed to being completely random. Again, we start out with a problem. What problem are you trying to solve? What conjectured state of affairs, in reality, are you proposing solves said problem? Furthmore, you omitted the criticism phase, etc. Not taking ideas seriously seems to be a common occurrence here.critical rationalist
October 7, 2017
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CR @56
We mix, mutate, vary background knowledge in ways that are not based on sensory input. ... it has no foundation.
You make it sound like some sort of random process — akin to random mutations in DNA. But, how does that work? Let's see. Let me try to come up with some theory in the way you describe. Do let me know if my attempt is mixed and varied enough:
Theories problem guess to decades, furthermore fact biology, physics, etc. inside and outside the kettle. There fields go unnoticed for decades, progress in motion of all molecules of water.
How about that? Are you sure that intelligence, which you studiously avoid mentioning, has nothing to do with "guesses"?Origenes
October 2, 2017
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@origenes We mix, mutate, vary background knowledge in ways that are not based on sensory input. The content of our theories does not come from observations, because they are not out there for us to observe. And that background knowledge we work with is itself theory laden as well. So, none of our knowledge comes from authorize sources, like experience. It has no foundation. But by all means, feel free to explain how we could obtain the contents of theories from observations, in detail. This is a well known problem and if you solve it, you'd be quite famous!critical rationalist
October 2, 2017
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CR@
CR: We guess and then test our guesses. It’s unclear how we can propose theories to solve problems if, well, we do not propose them all.
How do we make guesses? What is the origin of guesses?Origenes
October 2, 2017
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@Origenes
“there is good criticism of all beliefs”
I didn’t say that. I said that what you call basic beliefs that cannot be wrong are actually believes that we currently have no good criticism of. We might in the future, but we currently lack good criticism. For example, the idea 2 + 2 = 4 is a idea that we currently lack good criticisms of. We cannot think of ways to modify it without signficantlly reducing its ability to explain the phenomena in question.
...then there must be a complete theory
Theories are explantions about how the world work, in reality, designed to solve a problem. They do not exist out there for us to observe. We guess and then test our guesses. It’s unclear how we can propose theories to solve problems if, well, we do not propose them all. Or encounter them. Furthermore, errors in theories go unnoticed for decades, if we even notice them at all. And if answers to problems lead to even better problems, which lead to even better problems, etc. then how can we propose them all? Why should we actually end up with a “complete” theory? Why is there fields of biology, physics, etc. Some are emergent. We have a theory that allows us to make tea, despite the fact that the motion of all molecules of water in the kettle is untraceable, along with the initial conditions inside and outside the kettle. We can make progress, despite it being incomplete in this sense.
For instance, the law of identity is not incomplete because it does not contain a description of atoms.
The law of identity is a tautology. Nor does it explain how you know A is actually an A. If A is an A, then it’s an A. Is a emerald green or bleen? (See the new riddle of induction)
Suppose one day we have a theory of everything which explains it all, will you then go on and repeat your mantra: “every theory is incomplete”?
And how might we achieve that? The idea that we can have complete theories is dependent on your epistemology view, which we disagree on.
Knowledge presupposes a knower, as thoughts presuppose a thinker. From an ontological point of view, neither knowledge nor thoughts have independent existence.
So, you’re arguing by definition? That’s a fallacy. I’m using the term “knowelge” in constructor theory terms, in that it is information that plays a causal role in being retained. It is the ultimate generalization of a constructor. Only people can create explantory knowledge, because only people can create explantions. However, both neo-Darwnism and people can create non-explantory knowledge. As I’ve pointed out, merely being intelligent isn’t sufficient. I’ve already criticized the idea that intelligent agent is sufficient.critical rationalist
October 1, 2017
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CR @ 47
Thoughts represent knowledge …. ,
Knowledge presupposes a knower, as thoughts presuppose a thinker. From an ontological point of view, neither knowledge nor thoughts have independent existence. Knowledge is well warranted, credibly true belief held by a knower. Clearly knowledge is a subset of thoughts — as we all know, thoughts are not restricted to true beliefs and can be about anything.
… and knowledge plays a causal role in being retained when embedded in a storage medium like our brains or in the genomes of organism.
If there is knowledge in the genomes of organisms, then who is the knower? Who holds this knowledge?
Knowledge is objective in that is independent of belief or a knowing subject.
Utter nonsense.
In the case of creationism, the explanation for the growth knowledge is supernatural. In the case of ID, the explanation is utterly absent …
More utter nonsense. An intelligent agent explains the growth of knowledge. See for instance the Manhattan Project. We are goal-directed, pattern-seeking and pattern-inventing agents, who find solutions to search problems.Origenes
September 28, 2017
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CR @50: According to you every idea can be criticized — every “idea might be false”. I pointed out some ideas that cannot be false (#48). Your response is that these are "just beliefs that we currently have no good criticism of." Question: do you realize that stating "there is good criticism of all beliefs" is just another way of saying that all beliefs are wrong in some sense? Do I have to explain (again) how that, applied to itself, is yet another self-refuting statement? - - - - - CR @51
CR: You seem to have confused true with complete.
Not at all. Let me explain it again: If a theory is not complete it leaves something out. If the theory "all theories are incomplete" is incomplete and thus leaves something out, then there must be a complete theory.
For example, the incompleteness of a theory does not include the theory of atoms, or quantum mechanics, etc. yet they are necessary. So, that theory is incomplete.
Not so. For instance, the law of identity is not incomplete because it does not contain a description of atoms.
We have no theory of everything and may never will.
Suppose one day we have a theory of everything which explains it all, will you then go on and repeat your mantra: "every theory is incomplete"?Origenes
September 28, 2017
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@Origenes You seem to have confused true with complete. (And, see that above caveats in regards to truth) Furthermore, the theory that all theories are incomplete isn't reductionist in nature. Rather it is emergent and about limitations about what a "theory" is defined. For example, the incompleteness of a theory does not include the theory of atoms, or quantum mechanics, etc. yet they are necessary. So, that theory is incomplete. Emergent explanations are mostly self contained. You can make tea despite the fact that the motions of water molecules are essentially intractable. Despite being emergent they depend on other aspects of physics, but the theory of how to make tea only needs to know high level details, such as the volume of the pot and the wattage of the heating element, etc. But they depend on a great number of details. So, it is incomplete in that sense. That explanations can exist at different levels indicates that there are different levels that they do not exist at and do not explain. The fact that we have different fields of science indicates that theories are themselves incomplete. We have no theory of everything and may never will.critical rationalist
September 28, 2017
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@Origenes
No it is not. Some ideas are justified. Some ideas cannot be wrong — are self-evident. Here some examples: 1. A=A 2. I act therefore I am 3. Torturing an infant for personal pleasure is unmitigated evil.
And how did you come up with that list of supposed "basic beliefs" out of all "non-basic beliefs"? You had to criticize them against other beliefs. You tried to criticize them and those criticism failed. This is not the same as being immune to criticism. IOW, basic beliefs are just beliefs that we currently have no good criticism of.critical rationalist
September 28, 2017
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CR @47 //follow-up #48//
CR: Not to mention that all theories are incomplete.
Yet another self-refuting statement, because: 1. All theories are incomplete. therefore 2. The theory ‘all theories are incomplete’ is itself incomplete. 3. In order for the theory ‘all theories are incomplete’ to be incomplete, there must be a theory that is not incomplete — otherwise it would be complete. Therefore C: Not all theories are incomplete. QED.
CR: That is criticism of the philosophical idea that Knowledge is justified, true belief.
Sure, but unfortunately for you it is not a valid criticism, since it is self-refuting.Origenes
September 27, 2017
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CR: “Idea X isn’t justified” isn’t a valid criticism. The fact that an idea might be false is not a good criticism ...
"Idea X isn't justified" is not synonymous to "that idea might be false".
CR: ... because it’s equally applicable to all ideas ...
No it is not. Some ideas are justified. Some ideas cannot be wrong — are self-evident. Here some examples: 1. A=A 2. I act therefore I am 3. Torturing an infant for personal pleasure is unmitigated evil.Origenes
September 27, 2017
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Not a single one of them picked up on the seemingly rather obvious point that, in principle, statements like Churchlands’ apply to Darwinian theory as much as they do to truth claims materialists deride or hold in contempt, such as belief in God.
I was testing to see if – given this uncontroversial aspect of the theory – any of the materialists would express even the tiniest, slightest, minutest doubts regarding the truth of their own views. 
Sure I did, Barry. My response was, “so what?” “Idea X isn’t justified” isn’t a valid criticism. The fact that an idea might be false is not a good criticism because it’s equally applicable to all ideas, including Darwinism. Despite being false, Newton’s laws of motion contain truth in that it is a close approximation to GR. Close enough to launch space craft. Nor did we have to redesign bridges and buildings, despite the fact that GR suggests something completely different is happening, in reality. We also know that GR, QM or both contains errors because we have no working theory of gravity. Not to mention that all theories are incomplete. That is criticism of the philosophical idea that Knowledge is justified, true belief. It’s unclear how the above isn’t an example of “doubts regarding the truth of their own views”. What other response were you expecting that would express that?
Exactly like the Darwinians who comment on UD’s posts, Darwin had “selective horrid doubt.”  He doubted whether his mind could contemplate God.
Being supposedly infinite, that seems like a rather reasonable doubt. In fact, that’s why I’m an agnostic. It’s unclear why my intuitions about God, or anyone else, are actually correct, should he actually exist. They would start out as a guess and God could have just as well created the universe 30 seconds ago, for some good reason we cannot comprehend. (Once you open the door to that idea, you’ve given up the store, so to speak) Apparently, I’m more open minded about God than theists here. God, having no needs or limitations is easily varied. How would we go about criticizing any such ideas about God? But enough about me. How about you, Berry. Do you doubt that your mind knows that God values and demands of us, such as what consenting adults do in their own bedrooms? Specifically, how have you managed to infallibly identify an infallible source of knowledge? How have you managed to infallibly interpret it? Theory always comes first. I’ve only asked this question, what, a dozen times? Let me guess, “that’s just what some designer must have wanted”?
But he apparently never entertained the slightest doubt that his mind could contemplate deep time and the origin of species. Isn’t that odd?
That’s an interesting theory. How might you go about criticizing that idea? Have you even tried?
BA: C.S. Lewis understood what Darwin apparently did not (or at least did not acknowledge).  He wrote:
?If so, then all our present thoughts are mere accidents—the accidental by-product of the movement of atoms. And this holds for the thoughts of the materialists and astronomers as well as for anyone else’s. But if their thoughts—i.e. of materialism and astronomy—are merely accidental by-products, why should we believe them to be true? I see no reason for believing that one accident should be able to give me a correct account of all the other accidents.
Thank Zeus the field of epistemology is not limited to the intuitions of C.S. Lewis. Thoughts represent knowledge, and knowledge plays a causal role in being retained when embedded in a storage medium like our brains or in the genomes of organism. Bains evolved to orchestrate movement, which requires storing knowledge about the details of a movement and when it should be performed, etc. Once you get that, you get a storage medium. And, like organisms and designers, knowledge is itself well adapted to serve a purpose. You cannot modify bits on a flash drive without significantly reducing their ability to serve that purpose. And as you so eloquently put it, when our ideas are false they slam into the wall of reality. However, this doesn’t help if we can just modify our ideas in an ad-hoc fashion when they conflict with observations. In fact, this is why most of human history was like Oog’s, in that their lives were dominated by useful rules of thumb that bore little to no resemblance to the truth. So what changed? Our preference for long chains of hard to vary explanations. Specifically, a preference for explanations cannot be modified without significantly reducing their ability to explain the phenomena in question. So, when those theories slam into the wall of reality, their proponents have no where to go. For example, compare the Greek myth of the seasons and our current day explanation for the seasons, of which the latter consists of a long chain of hard to vary, independently formed explanations about the rotation of the earth, the amount of heat received at an angle, nuclear reactions in stars, that a spinning sphere tends to retain its tilt, etc. Should one of those links of the latter run into the wall of reality, It cannot be easily changed, without removing its ability to explain the seasons. As such, there is no where for its proponents to go. This is apposed to the Greek myth, which can always be modified because it is easily varied without reducing it’s ability to explain the seasons. So, being found false by observations wouldn’t have got the Greeks one jot close, because their explanation was bad (easily varied). In the case of creationism, the explanation for the growth knowledge is supernatural. In the case of ID, the explanation is utterly absent and in the case of induction, it is irrational. These are bad explanations (easily varied) To quote this TED talk.
That the truth consists of hard to vary assertions about reality is the most important fact about the physical world. It's a fact that is, itself, unseen, yet impossible to vary.
Tell me, Barry, if the truth does not consist of hard to vary assertions about reality, then what does the truth consist of?critical rationalist
September 27, 2017
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ES58, it is precisely because we have an ill-advised rejection of coherence as a criterion of rationality and accessing reality that we have the willingness to entertain the sort of logic with a swivel, one standard for thee another for me attitude that is reflected in the selective hyperskepticism BA is here exposing. Loss of contact with reality -- yes, a precursor to utter mass insanity -- is a direct consequence of such incoherence. What we have here is the induced mass rejection of a plumbline, self evident first principle of right reason, leading to setting up a crooked yardstick as the reference standard for what is straight and accurate. The result of such a move is that what is genuinely straight and accurate will never meet the test of the crooked yardstick. However, for the manipulators out there, that is a highly desirable feature, not a bug, as it locks their victims in to their agendas and locks out correction -- leading to the insanity of going ever faster down a march of folly while expecting things to get better and better despite warning signs. I put it to you that evolutionary materialism is exactly such a march of self-referentially incoherent, amoral, might and manipulation make "right," "truth," "knowledge," "Science" [often presented as a settled consensus of the experts passing the no true Scotsman test . . .], "justice," etc folly. We would be well advised to instead go back to principles that are natural plumblines and to purge our thought of crooked yardsticks that cannot pass the test of the plumbline. This, of course, a hell-bent generation will not do, despite abundant and growing warnings of crisis and collapsing cliff edges that perhaps are already precipitating us into civilisation-level disaster. KFkairosfocus
September 26, 2017
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This discussion is reminiscent of the debate over the law of noncontradiction that led to a schism a number of years agoes58
September 26, 2017
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To have any kind of rational discussion or debate you need to begin with some kind of common ground. With a logical argument common ground begins with a factually true premise or proposition. If you don’t begin there all you are doing is talking past or over the top of each other. So far on the last few threads related to this topic our atheist interlocutors have offered nothing approaching common ground, despite the fact the proposition that Barry is putting forward-- ”that natural selection selects for fitness, not for truth”-- is something other atheists (who he has quoted) accept as true. What we have gotten so far is nothing more than tag team obstruction and obfuscation. That doesn’t win arguments but it does prevent them from ever taking place. However, in the end they do win, but at what cost? It ends up being a triumph of irrationality over rationality. Of course, ironically that proves that atheism is not, nor has ever been, about reason. It is really nothing but nihilism which is just another way to say it is nothing about nothing. What we see going on today on the internet is the equivalent of the shout downs we are seeing on college campuses. That’s bad news for democracy, culture and society because that is the kind of thinking that leads to Orwellian totalitarianism.john_a_designer
September 26, 2017
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A/mats generally hate to be linked with communist murderers such as Stalin and Mao...but the link is inescapable. One could even argue that Stalin and Mao were actually more honest about their a/mat faith, and thus more willing to take it to its logical conclusions.Truth Will Set You Free
September 26, 2017
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AnimatedDust @ 41 Thank you for the encouragement. I just now saw your earlier request on another thread. See "FFT*: Charles unmasks..." Comment 513Charles
September 26, 2017
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Charles, o/t, but do you have a blog or something that has more of your biblical scholarship? Very impressed by the depth of your knowledge.AnimatedDust
September 26, 2017
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Seversky: There is no epistemological dilemma... There is no expectation in science of absolute truth, just the hope of an ever-closer approximation of what is actually there. Well then, congrats. You are a mere pragmatist and not a materialist. A very respectable position.mike1962
September 25, 2017
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Sev "Sometimes, yes" And thereby you give away the store. I am surprised that you do not understand this. It does not have to be all of the time for the argument to be valid.Barry Arrington
September 25, 2017
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“[Our] brains were shaped for fitness, not for truth. Sometimes truth is adaptive, but sometimes it is not.” Steven Pinker
Sometimes, yes. But all the time? No, Pinker does not appear to be saying that. So how much is "sometimes"? The majority of the time? Is Pinker arguing that believing falsehoods gives you a better chance of survival than understanding the truth? Or is that you can only get away with believing falsehoods for a minority of the time? Is it that, for the most part, sooner or later reality will blow right through false beliefs and smack you in the face?
“Sometimes you are more likely to survive and propagate if you believe a falsehood than if you believe the truth.” Eric Baum
There's that "sometimes" again. See above
“According to evolution by natural selection, an organism that sees reality as it is will never be more fit than an organism of equal complexity that sees none of reality but is just tuned to fitness. Never.” Donald Hoffman
Never? That's a bold claim. So just what is the functional difference between seeing reality as it is and being "tuned for fitness" - whatever that means?
“We are anything but a mechanism set up to perceive the truth for its own sake. Rather, we have evolved a nervous system that acts in the interest of our gonads, and one attuned to the demands of reproductive competition. If fools are more prolific than wise men, then to that degree folly will be favored by selection. And if ignorance aids in obtaining a mate, then men and women will tend to be ignorant.” Michael Ghiselin
Yes, if fools are more prolific than wise men that would indicate they are being favored by natural selection. The question here is will fools survive long enough to reproduce at a greater rate than wise men.
“[N]atural selection does not care about truth; it cares only about reproductive success” Stephen Stich
Natural selection doesn't actually "care" about anything, except as a figure of speech. But if truth-tracking behavior improves the chances of survival of those who have that capacity then we could say that natural selection does care about truth.
“Improvements in sensorimotor control confer an evolutionary advantage: a fancier style of representing is advantageous so long as it is geared to the organism’s way of life and enhances the organism’s chances of survival. Truth, whatever that is, definitely takes the hindmost.” Patricia Churchland
How are "Improvements in sensorimotor control" and a "fancier style of representing" advantageous, how could they "confer an evolutionary advantage" and enhance "the organism’s chances of survival" other than by enabling the construction of a more accurate - in other words, truer - account of the environment in which the organism must live and survive?
“We are jumped-up apes, and our brains were only designed to understand the mundane details of how to survive in the stone-age African savannah.” Richard Dawkins
Those brains that were at one time adapted to a tree-dwelling life later adapted to ground-dwelling. I seriously doubt that, once on the ground, those ape ancestors still believed they were swinging from branch to branch. Later, still using much the same brain, they became tribes of hunter-gatherers, then settled in villages and grew crops, then built cities and city-states and then nation states and then empires and so on. All using a brain that was originally "only designed to understand the mundane details of how to survive in the stone-age African savannah". Seems to me that's a remarkably flexible and adaptable organ that is well worth the large amount of resources we invest in maintaining it. And it's capable of whole lot more than playing Tarzan, including trying to work out what the world is really like.
Evolutionary materialists have a severe epistemological dilemma: If their propositions about the universe are true, there would be no way for us to know they are true. Evolutionary materialism saws off the epistemological branch on which it attempts to sit.
There is no epistemological dilemma. If it were true that there is no way to determine whether a proposition is true then there is no way to determine whether it's false either, so we have no way of knowing if false beliefs improve our chances of survival over true beliefs. But that isn't the case. Science proceeds in part by constructing hypotheses, theories or models which are then tested by being compared with what we can observe of the reality they purport to describe. The extent to which they found to correspond with that reality is the degree to which they can be said to be true. Note I wrote "degree" and "extent". There is no expectation in science of absolute truth, just the hope of an ever-closer approximation of what is actually there. Darwin, as a scientist, was well aware he wasn't writing some holy text but rather a scientific theory - provisional, incomplete and imperfect - which, unlike stories of talking serpents and people being turned into pillars of salt, could be tested against observation. No scientist welcomes the prospect of his life's work being overturned but the good ones, like Darwin, allow for the possibility. That's why he wrote:
If numerous species, belonging to the same genera or families, have really started into life all at once, the fact would be fatal to the theory to descent with slow modification though natural selection.
Seversky
September 25, 2017
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Neil Rickert @35
Barry Arrington: Neil, is your disagreement justified?
Neil Rickert: You can browse through the epistemology posts at my blog, and decide for yourself.
You are missing the point Rick. What Barry does is like asking "Is that statement true?" in response to someone who claims "There are no true statements." The idea is that there is no satisfactory answer.
Barry Arrington: Are the propositions on which your disagreement [rests] true?
Neil Rickert: Which propositions? I am disagreeing with the propositional account of knowledge.
And you base this disagreement on your propositions Rick. The mistake you make is a classic mistake.
Barry Arrington: Do you believe those propositions? If the answer to those questions is yes, then you are just another idiot who affirms that which he denies. If the answer is no, then you are just stupid. Either way, not looking too good for you.
It reminds me of Jim Slagle's account of Marx and Freud:
Marx himself wrote of his critics, “Your very ideas are but the outgrowth of the conditions of your bourgeois production and bourgeois property, just as your jurisprudence is but the will of your class made into a law for all, a will whose essential character and direction are determined by the economical conditions of existence of your class.”2 Thus, his critics’ beliefs are brought about by social conditioning and their economic position in society and, as such, can be dismissed.3 The obvious response to such claims is to apply it to the Freudian and the Marxist themselves, not to mention Freud and Marx: if all beliefs are the product of nonrational forces, and thus nonveracious in some way, then belief in Freudianism and Marxism is similarly produced and so just as nonveracious as any other. If all reasoning is hopelessly tainted, then the Freudian and the Marxist arrive at their doctrines by tainted processes too, and if this condition allows their critics to be discounted, as Marx seems to suggest, it allows Freudianism and Marxism to be discounted by the same token. [Jim Slagle, 'The Epistemological Skyhook']
Origenes
September 25, 2017
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Neil Rickert @ 35
We do not know what “matter in motion” means. Quantum physics leaves us uncertain about “matter”, and relativity leaves us uncertain about “motion”.
On that basis alone your driver's license ought to be revoked. Tell the next cop that cites you for a moving violation, and the judge in your case: "But your Honor! I don't subscribe to materialism. Why, we don't even know what matter in motion means." You, being a self-professed "computer scientist", ought to hang your head in shame. Engineers understand both "quantum physics" and "matter in motion" well enough to build quantum computers, something a professed "computer scientist" ought to admit. I haven't seen such intellectual dishonesty since Elizabeth Liddle. This comment of yours should be linked everytime you profess your integrity or knowlege of anything. Unlike you, engineers understand what "matter in motion" means. We understand both well enough to build the LHC and collide matter in motion at relativistic speeds, as well as build quantum computers.Charles
September 25, 2017
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Responding to Barry Arrington.
Neil, is your disagreement justified?
You can browse through the epistemology posts at my blog, and decide for yourself.
Are the propositions on which your disagreement true?
Which propositions? I am disagreeing with the propositional account of knowledge.
me: I don’t know what it would mean to say that naturalism is true.
BA: Then, you should probably refrain from commenting while the adults have their discussion.
If there's a point there, I don't know what it is. I have discussed why I do not subscribe to naturalism, maybe 2 or 3 years ago at this site. There is still a lot that we do not know. So we do not know what we mean by "natural" nor what we mean by "naturalism".
me: I’m not sure what Pinker might have meant with his comment on adaptivity of truth.
ba quoting me: I’m not sure what Pinker might have meant
I think that's technically called a quote mine. I went on to respond to two possibilities on what Pinker might have meant in his use of "adaptive".
You don’t seem to know what the word “tautology” means, because Hoffman’s statement is certainly not one.
Read it again. It says that an organism that is optimally tuned for fitness will be optimally fit. The part about "sees reality as it is" is just rhetorical; it does not affect the truth of the statement as a whole.
Why don’t you just treat that bus hurling down the street as a social construct?
Of course the bus is a social construct. If society had not constructed buses and streets, there would not be buses hurtling down streets. To say that it is a social construct is not to deny that is physical. And the truth conditions for sentences about buses are also established by society. If we had called that thing a balloon instead of a bus, we would have different true sentences.
If the universe consists of nothing but matter in motion, ...
I think I have been clear, that I do not subscribe to materialism. We do not know what "matter in motion" means. Quantum physics leaves us uncertain about "matter", and relativity leaves us uncertain about "motion".Neil Rickert
September 25, 2017
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KF, Thanks, my answer to your #30 of course is "no".
Beyond, our being morally governed embodied creatures points to a necessary being world root that is inherently able to bridge IS and OUGHT. Post Hume’s guillotine, only the world root can answer to that, and it must be a necessary being. There is just one serious candidate: the inherently good creator God, a necessary and maximally great being, worthy of loyalty and the responsible, reasonable, free service of doing the good in accord with our evident nature.
In particular, I take it that you believe there is no way we could gain access to objective or universal morality (and possibly other domains of knowledge, such as mathematics) without a god-like being granting us this access. Is that correct?daveS
September 25, 2017
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DS, my answer is of long standing. I find that cell based life can be reasonably explained on design, which needs not necessitate more than a molecular nanotech lab some generations beyond Venter et al. That has been my view for over a decade and it is essentially the same as that which ID thinkers have held for the past 30+ years. I find that a fine tuned cosmos set to a deeply isolated operating point amenable to C-Chem, aqueous medium cell based life points to a designed cosmos and thus an extra cosmic designer of awesome power and skill. Beyond, our being morally governed embodied creatures points to a necessary being world root that is inherently able to bridge IS and OUGHT. Post Hume's guillotine, only the world root can answer to that, and it must be a necessary being. There is just one serious candidate: the inherently good creator God, a necessary and maximally great being, worthy of loyalty and the responsible, reasonable, free service of doing the good in accord with our evident nature. The God of ethical theism, and I happen to further hold on historical evidence and on the experience of millions across 2000 years (including that I am alive today), that Jesus of Nazareth, the risen Christ, is that God manifest in human flesh for our redemption. As you know, none of this is a new view with me, and the reasons have been argued out in thread after thread. KFkairosfocus
September 25, 2017
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rvb8 @12
rvb8: I also have a problem with him suggesting I believe we have ‘libertarian freewill’, I am a strict ‘Determinist’, and believe through countless anecdotal observations, that we have close to zero freewill.
You are not a strict determinist. A strict determinist holds that we have exactly zero free will.
rvb8: Sure, we can decide where to sit, or what to eat ...
Elaborate please. If we have a little bit free will, what is it? I take it that you understand that "our neurons tell us where to sit and what to eat" is not an answer. So, what is it that is capable of freely choosing where to sit and what to eat?Origenes
September 25, 2017
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KF, I asked first. I will answer your question (although you likely can guess what I will say) if you answer mine.daveS
September 25, 2017
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DS, can you provide a reasonable mechanism that 1: per observed capability to generate required FSCO/I, can 2: generate organised computational substrates -- I will not stipulate neural network archi -- and 3: program them effectively to do what we do (including reason and finding ourselves as under moral government . . . including when we reason), all 4: based on blind chance and mechanical necessity. KFkairosfocus
September 25, 2017
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