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Understanding self-evidence (with a bit of help from Aquinas . . . )

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A plumbline
A plumbline tells whether a wall is true (straight) and plumb (accurately vertical)

It seems that one of the pivotal issues in reasoned thinking about design-related questions — and in general —  is the question of self-evident first, certain truths that can serve as a plumb-line for testing other truth claims, and indeed for rationality.

(Where, the laws of identity, non-contradiction and excluded middle are foremost among such first principles. And where also, some ID objectors profess to be “frightened” that some of us dare to hold that there are moral truths that are self evident.)

Where also of course, self-evident does not merely mean perceived as obvious to oneself, which could indeed be a manifestation of a delusion. Nay, a self evident truth [SET] is best summarised as one known to be so and to be necessarily so without further proof from other things.

That is, a SET is:

a: actually true — it accurately reports some relevant feature of reality (e.g.: error exists)

b: immediately recognised as true once one actually understands what is being asserted, in light of our conscious experience of the world (as in, no reasonable person would but recognise the reality that error exists)

c: further seen as something that must be true, on pain of patent absurdity on attempted denial. (E.g. try denying “error exists” . . . the absurdity is rapidly, forcefully manifest)

I think Aquinas has a few helpful words for us:

Now a thing is said to be self-evident in two ways: first, in itself; secondly, in relation to us. Any proposition is said to be self-evident in itself, if its predicate is contained in the notion of the subject: although, to one who knows not the definition of the subject, it happens that such a proposition is not self-evident. For instance, this proposition, “Man is a rational being,” is, in its very nature, self-evident, since who says “man,” says “a rational being”: and yet to one who knows not what a man is, this proposition is not self-evident. Hence it is that, as Boethius says (De Hebdom.), certain axioms or propositions are universally self-evident to all; and such are those propositions whose terms are known to all, as, “Every whole is greater than its part,” and, “Things equal to one and the same are equal to one another.” But some propositions are self-evident only to the wise, who understand the meaning of the terms of such propositions . . . .

Now a certain order is to be found in those things that are apprehended universally. For that which, before aught else, falls under apprehension, is “being,” the notion of which is included in all things whatsoever a man apprehends. Wherefore the first indemonstrable principle is that “the same thing cannot be affirmed and denied at the same time,” which is based on the notion of “being” and “not-being”: and on this principle all others are based, as is stated in Metaph. iv, text. 9.

In short, we have two facets here, First, standing by itself a SET has an objective character and is a first principle, a point of certain knowledge. But, that brings up the second aspect: we need to understand it, that we may grasp it. And, that may well fail, primarily by way of ignorance, secondarily by way of commitment to a contrary ideology that makes it difficult or even nearly impossible to acknowledge that which on the actual merits is self-evident.

How can we address the problem?

By understanding the significance of how rejecting a SET ends in absurdity. Which may be by outright obvious logical contradiction, or by undermining rationality or by being chaotically destructive and/or senseless. Moral SETs are usually seen as self evident in this latter sense.

For instance, by way of laying down a benchmark, let us take the SET that has been so often put here at UD, by way of underscoring vital moral hazards connected to evolutionary materialism (which entails that there are no objective foundations for morality, as many leading Darwinists have acknowledged on the record), to wit:

MORAL YARDSTICK 1: it is Self-Evidently True that it would be wrong to kidnap, torture, rape and murder a child. With corollary, that if such is in progress we are duty-bound to intervene to save the child from the monster.

It will be observed that essentially no-one dares to explicitly deny this, or its direct corollary. That is because such denial would put one in the category of supporting a blatant monster like Nero. Instead, the tendency is to try to push this into the world of tastes, preferences, feelings and community views. Such a view may indeed reflect such, but it is more, it asserts boldly that here is an OUGHT that one denies being bound by, on pain of absurdity. Which of course, further points to our world being a reality grounded in an IS adequate to sustain OUGHT, i.e. we are under moral government.

But, that is not all.

Let us again note Dr Richard Dawkins on the record, in Scientific American, August 1995:

Nature is not cruel, only pitilessly indifferent. This lesson is one of the hardest for humans to learn. We cannot accept that things might be neither good nor evil, neither cruel nor kind, but simply callous: indifferent to all suffering, lacking all purpose [–> It escapes Dr Dawkins that we may have good reason for refusing this implication of his favoured ideological evolutionary materialism] . . . .

In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but pitiless indifference [–> As in open admission of utter amorality that opens the door to nihilism] . . . . DNA neither cares nor knows. DNA just is. And we dance to its music. [“God’s Utility Function,” Sci. Am. Aug 1995, pp. 80 – 85.]

This is right in the heart of the science and society issues that rage over Darwinism and wider evolutionary materialist origins thought. Where, let us again remind ourselves, we must frankly and squarely face how Dr Richard Lewontin went on record also:

. . . the problem is to get [people] to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth [[–> NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]. . . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists, it is self-evident [[–> actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . ] that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality, and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test  [[–> i.e. an assertion that tellingly reveals a hostile mindset, not a warranted claim] . . . .

It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [[–> another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [[–> i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [From: “Billions and Billions of Demons,” NYRB, January 9, 1997. Bold emphasis and notes added. ]

These are smoking gun admissions as to the nature, prior commitments [viewed as self evident! . . . but actually only question-begging . . . ] and consequences of evolutionary materialist ideology, regardless of whether or not it is dressed up in the proverbial lab coat.

And, just as it is legitimate to confront a priori materialist impositions on the methods and conclusions of origins science  it is equally in order to raise serious questions on the moral implications of such ideologies and the way they irreconcilably conflict with yardstick cases of self evident moral truth.

Let us look back at that child.

S/he has no physical prowess to impose his or her will. S/he has no eloquence to persuade a demonic Nero-like monster to stop from brutally despoiling and destructive sick pleasures. S/he is essentially helpless. And yet, our consciences speak loud and clear, giving an insight that this ought not to be done, yea even, if we see such in progress we ought to intervene to rescue if we can, how we can.

Is that voice of conscience delusional, a mere survival trait that leads us to perceive an ought as a binding obligation where there is no such, or it is merely the perceived threat of being caught by superior state power or the like?

We already know from great reformers that the state can be in the wrong, though often that was taught at fearsome cost. (Nero’s vicious persecutions being themselves evidence in point.)

And, if one is imagining that a major aspect of mindedness is delusional, where does that stop?

In short, once the premise of general delusion of our key mental faculties is introduced we are in an infinite regress of Plato’s cave worlds. If we say we identify delusion A, who is to say but this is delusion B, thence C, D, E and so forth?

Plato's Cave of shadow shows projected before life-long prisoners and confused for reality. Once the concept of general delusion is introduced, it raises the question of an infinite regress of delusions. The sensible response is to see that this should lead us to doubt the doubter and insist that our senses be viewed as generally reliable unless they are specifically shown defective. (Source: University of Fort Hare, SA, Phil. Dept.)
Plato’s Cave of shadow shows projected before life-long prisoners and confused for reality. Once the concept of general delusion is introduced, it raises the question of an infinite regress of delusions. The sensible response is to see that this should lead us to doubt the doubter and insist that our senses be viewed as generally reliable unless they are specifically shown defective. (Source: University of Fort Hare, SA, Phil. Dept.)

{U/D Dec 4:}  A video adaptation (one that is closely accurate to the text of The Republic):

[youtube UQfRdl3GTw4]

So, we see the cogency of UD’s own WJM as he has argued:

If you do not [acknowledge] the law of non-contradiction, you have nothing to argue about. If you do not [admit] the principles of sound reason, you have nothing to argue with. If you do not [recognise] libertarian free will, you have no one to argue against. If you do not [accept] morality to be an objective commodity, you have no reason to argue in the first place.

In short, resort to dismissing key mental capacities as general delusion is a morass, a self-refuting fallacy.  (Which is different from, whether one may be in specific error and even a great many may be in specific error. Indeed, if we look at the original Plato’s Cave parable, it side-steps that by pointing to the one man who is set free and recognises the apparatus of manipulation for what it is, then, having been led to see more widely, returns to try to help; only to face the power of a mass delusion rooted in an evident error that is clung to.)

Instead, we should respect the general capacity of our mental faculties, recognising their strengths as well as limitations, and how playing the general delusion card is self referentially incoherent and absurd.

There is absolutely no good reason to assume or brazenly assert or insinuate that our insight on moral yardstick 1, is delusional. We have instead every good reason to hold that we are morally governed, with conscience as a faculty of mind that serves that government, though it may be dulled or become defective or may be in error on specific points. (Much as is so for vision and hearing, etc.)

So, let us follow up:

1 –> Per MY # 1 etc., we see — on pain of absurdity if we try to deny — that there are self-evident moral truths, entailing that we are under the moral government of OUGHT.

2 –> Where by MY # 1, the little child has moral equality, quasi-infinite worth and equal dignity with us as fellow human beings, a status that immediately is inextricably entangled with that s/he has core rights that we OUGHT to respect: her or his life, liberty, personhood, etc.

3 –> So, we are under moral government, which requires a world in which OUGHT rests on a foundational IS that can bear its weight.

4 –> And, I am very aware of the dismissals of and debates regarding “foundationalism” out there {U/D Dec 02: link added with adjustments, “foundationalism” was there all along . . . }, on closer inspection we can readily see that our worldviews and arguments are invariably dependent on finitely distant start points on which the systems of thought or reasoning must stand:

A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}
A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way

5 –> So, also, we confront the challenge that –  there is just one serious candidate for such a  reality-foundational IS that can bear the weight of OUGHT: the inherently good eternal Creator God, whose precepts and principles will be evidently sound from . . . moral yardstick self evident truths.

6 –> Where also we can highlight the framework of such truths in the context of civil society and government, by citing a pivotal historical case or two.  First, that when he set out to ground the principles of what would become modern liberty and democracy, John Locke cited “the judicious [anglican canon Richard] Hooker” in Ch 2 Sect 5 of his second essay on civil government, thusly:

. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man’s hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [[Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [[Eccl. Polity,preface, Bk I, “ch.” 8, p.80, cf. here. Emphasis added.]

7 –> Less than a hundred years later, this was powerfully echoed in the appeal to self evident moral truths in the US Declaration of Independence of 1776:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, [cf Rom 1:18 – 21, 2:14 – 15], that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. –That [–> still, held self-evident!] to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government [–> right of judicious reformation and innovation, if necessary backed by the right of just revolution in the face of unyielding tyranny when remonstrance fails and threats or actual violence manifest in “a long train of abuses and usurpations” indicates an intent of unlimited despotism . . . ], laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . .

8 –> Those who would therefore seek to poison the well and the atmosphere for discussion on such matters, need to first pause and soberly address these historically decisive cases.

_______________

Therefore, the amorality of evolutionary materialist ideology stands exposed as absurd in the face of self-evident moral truths. Where, such moral yardsticks imply that we are under government of OUGHT, leading onward to the issue that there is only one serious explanation for our finding ourselves living in such a world — a theistic one. END

Comments
RB: Just for record, kindly note that the point of the attempted denial is that it creates a new proposition, and that proposition turns out to have such reference to the world. Namely, it denies that error exists. In so doing, it creates an error, as has been shown. Attempts to wiggle off the hook notwithstanding, Error exists is true, is a matter of commonplace fact, and its attempted denial shows by instantiating an error, that it is undeniable as well thus self evident. It seems, however that you have such a horror of truth being shown so beyond reasonable doubt that you insist on manufacturing unreasonable and absurd fantasy doubts. KFkairosfocus
December 12, 2013
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SB:
That point has been refuted a number of times
Sorry, Stephen, I don't see a refutation. A refutation would have the form of justification for said reification. You've provided none. KF is pressing one that doesn't work.
Each time I ask you if evil exists, you change the subject.
Here are the subjects of my part in this thread to date: - "Errors exist" results in paradox due to self-reference. It fails to provide an exemplar of self-evidence of any significance. - "Promoting errors" into "Error" entails unjustified reification.Reciprocating Bill
December 12, 2013
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KF:
. . . explain to us how this plainly and explicitly abstract entity (sets, with members) is properly to be regarded as an example of misplaced concreteness, assigning an abstract entity an implied or explicit status of being material like an object made of concrete.
- My argument is not that sets with members are necessarily reified. With respect to the "error exists" paradox, my argument is that it arises due to self-reference, and tells us nothing about the world. - Per the OED, "reify" can properly deployed to refer to the act of attributing to an abstraction reality that isn’t justified. It is in that sense that I intend "reify."
It turns out that the attempt to deny the proposition E, error exists means in effect: It is an ERROR to assert that error exists.
Due to self-reference, as you affirmed above. I'm not impressed.
reduce your credibility even further.
You going to finish those fries?Reciprocating Bill
December 12, 2013
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RB: One last thing, have you taken note of the significance of the square of opposition (as rehabilitated)? KFkairosfocus
December 11, 2013
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RB: In addition, can you kindly respond to the very specific definition of error applied --
that "error exists" means that this proposition asserts there is at least one x such that it is a member of the set R, which collects errors (if any)* --
. . . and explain to us how this plainly and explicitly abstract entity (sets, with members) is properly to be regarded as an example of misplaced concreteness, assigning an abstract entity an implied or explicit status of being material like an object made of concrete. Absent a very cogent explanation [not seen to date], your talking point about how language changes is little more than a brazen attempt to rhetorical suggest the presence of a fallacy where you full well know due to being corrected, there is none. Those are the newspeak propaganda tactics exposed in Orwell's 1984. (And I am holding on to my sound dictionaries -- untainted by Orwellian tactics, thank you. They will get my sound, classic dictionaries from me when they pry them from my cold, dead hands.) In the end, it is obvious that what you are objecting to is clarity and specificity of concepts you are disinclined to accept. It seems that if something is definite and you don't like it, it is to be inappropriately tagged "reification," branded with that as a scarlet label -- one you artfully refuse to clarify in light of non-loaded definition, and it is then rhetorically dismissed. As in: fallacy of the closed mind. Such tactics as I have just had to censure, reduce your credibility even further. Kindly, think again and do better. And, SB is quite right to challenge you to explain yourself regarding the existence and nature of evil. KF *PS: It turns out that the attempt to deny the proposition E, error exists means in effect: It is an ERROR to assert that error exists. Thus, it immediately and patently supplies an example of error. Thus, error exists is undeniably and self-evidently true as the attempt to deny instead provides substantiation of its truth.kairosfocus
December 11, 2013
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RB: You carelessly accused us of mischaracterising what you said. You were corrected on indubitable facts relating to 386 above, and without skipping a beat you proceeded with already corrected talking points, full speed ahead. Do you see the reasons for utter loss of credibility multiplying? Even if you don't, others do. Kindly, think again and do better. KFkairosfocus
December 11, 2013
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Reciprocating Bill
The second is that reification of “Errors into “error” is unjustified.
That point has been refuted a number of times as has been the similar false notion that truth, justice, goodness, and evil are reifications. Each time I ask you if evil exists, you change the subject. Would you care to finally address the question?StephenB
December 11, 2013
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KF
RB: Scroll up to 386, and see that I took several definitions of the word “reify” from various sources.
Words are tools. The meanings of utterances reflect not just the dictionary definitions of the words involved, but also the intentions of the speaker. I intend to convey the following: “Error” (over and above “errors”) attributes to an abstraction reality that isn’t justified. The OED indicates that "reify" can be used to describe same. Good enough for me. And if you correctly gather the meanings I intend, then the word has served me well enough.
that error exists means that there is an x such that it is a proper member of R, the set that collects errors (if any). There is no more of reification in that than in setting up the natural numbers. So, you can stop drumming away on the rhetorical drum with a hole in it now — all you are doing at this stage is exposing how desperate you are to avoid acknowledging self-evident truth.
Now you are conflating arguments. The first is that the “errors” paradox is attributable to self-reference (not reification) and tells us nothing about the world. That self-reference is independent of (and prior to) the the reification of “errors” into “Error.” The second is that reification of "Errors into "error" is unjustified. Whereas the establishment of abstractions such as mathematical objects and operation is justified axiomatically, the reification of "errors" into "Error" has no such justification, nor any other justification I can detect.
your opinion is of no credibility.
I'm just devastated, KF.Reciprocating Bill
December 11, 2013
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RB: Scroll up to 386, and see that I took several definitions of the word "reify" from various sources. You will see just which commonly encountered and influential sources in particular are being exposed. Let's just say, I am going to pass down three classic dictionaries in my family on a stipulation that they are never to get out of the hands of our family, and I am probably going to lock down a fourth from the 1950's from my dad. I am NOT going to have my native language stolen from me! KF PS: If you took time to notice, it has been repeatedly stressed -- in the context of the rehabilitated square of opposition -- that error exists means that there is an x such that it is a proper member of R, the set that collects errors (if any). There is no more of reification in that than in setting up the natural numbers. So, you can stop drumming away on the rhetorical drum with a hole in it now -- all you are doing at this stage is exposing how desperate you are to avoid acknowledging self-evident truth. You are free to do that, but the price tag is clinging to absurdity, as you seem to be doing. Just remember, this gives us the right to point to this and highlight that when you object to something like the empirically based inference to design on FSCO/I as reliable sign, you will not even acknowledge self-evident truth so your opinion is of no credibility.kairosfocus
December 11, 2013
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SB, KF:
Indeed, we are dealing with an “ideological culprit” (nice turn of phrase) because it is a false notion that abstract “things” cannot exist and it must also be noted that a secondary definition of a “thing” has not been accounted for in the primary definition of reification.
No one has stated that abstract things cannot exist. It is misplaced or unjustified reification to which I have taken exception: 283: “Error exits” entails the unjustified reification of “errors” into “Error.” Given that the mundane “errors exist” triggers the paradox of self-evidence without that reification, the self-referential “self-evidence” of “errors exist” does nothing to justify the promotion of “errors” into “Error.” 316: No one here has denied that “errors exists.” People commit errors all the time. “Error exists” reflects a reification of “error” that needs justification. 323: Wikipedia: “Reification generally refers to making something real, bringing something into being, or making something concrete, absent of evidence.” The entire point of my discussion of self-referential nature of the “error exists” paradox is that it fails, in my opinion, to provide that justification.
Is a thought, which clearly exists, a thing? Are we reifying when we acknowledge its existence?
I repeat: "Ideas and concepts are real things, but it doesn’t follow that their referents, which are often abstractions, are necessarily real. It is the referents of abstract ideas that are sometimes inappropriately reified."Reciprocating Bill
December 11, 2013
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#393 KF What interests me is how is it possible for you and I to differ over the nature of moral judgements. We presumably mean the same things by "good", "evil" etc. Each of us know the process we personally go through when we judge something to be good or evil. By and large we come to the same conclusions over fundamental issues such as the wrongness of murder, while disagreeing on others. So if I know my process and you know yours there appears to be only a limited number of options: The processes are indeed different. If so how do we decide which one is correct? The processes are essentially the same - in which case one or both of us is either lying or deceiving ourselves. If so, how do we know we deceiving ourselves? As far as the processes are concerned: As I understand it you a) deduce that something is good or evil by rational deduction b) in some sense perceive something is good or evil through conscience which is somewhat like a sense but it senses moral values rather than sights, sounds etc. My process is that I have an emotional response which I express by declaring something to be good or evil. This emotional response is not a whimsical unreasoned one. It is hugely influenced by all sorts of considerations - whether others suffer, how fair things are, commitments people have made, etc - but while all of these are important none are decisive. In the end my judgement is a personal response based on these reasons which luckily many, many people share. Do you think the two processes are so different? Or is one of us involved in self-deception (I will dismiss the possibility of lying)?Mark Frank
December 11, 2013
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. . . Especially, in a context where the recent incident of attempted target painting in one of the objector sites that attempts to even more directly menace my family speaks to an attitude and mentality that makes us think twice before ignoring the implications of might makes 'right' amorality. What we are dealing with here is not merely theoretical. KFkairosfocus
December 11, 2013
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SB: similarly, I would like to hear a good explanation of why we should accept that moral perceptions, unlike Mathematical ones, are purely subjective and so there is no underlying objective reality behind the sense of ought communicated by conscience. KFkairosfocus
December 11, 2013
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SB: It escapes me how, in a day and age where we rely on the power of mathematics, we can imagine that abstract = not real. I would like to hear some cogent explanations. KFkairosfocus
December 10, 2013
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Kairosfocus writes,
This is obviously a kidnapped, battered and abused word crying out for rescue from ideological captivity! (And yes, this is a deliberate metaphor.) The chief ideological culprit in the lineup is plain, as Wikipedia tosses off so blatantly: Reification (fallacy), fallacy of treating an abstraction as if it were a real thing
Indeed, we are dealing with an "ideological culprit" (nice turn of phrase) because it is a false notion that abstract "things" cannot exist and it must also be noted that a secondary definition of a "thing" has not been accounted for in the primary definition of reification. Is a thought, which clearly exists, a thing? Are we reifying when we acknowledge its existence? Without doubt, a thought is not a concrete thing, if concrete means physical or material. A concept or idea has no shape or weight and does not extend in space. Nevertheless, both concepts and ideas exist. The tree that we know as a tree, for example, is, indeed, concrete and physical, but our mental representation of that same tree (the concept) is not physical at all. That is why a mind, which is also immaterial, must play the role as the thought's originator (though not necessarily as its sole processor). So a thought does exist as an abstract reality and we are not reifying when we say so. We may say the same thing about about evil, goodness, truth, error, and justice. They all exist as abstract realities.StephenB
December 9, 2013
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#389 KF Fair enough - let me change it to something like "creatures with similar capabilities to humans" but that is not very snappy!Mark Frank
December 9, 2013
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MF: Kindly re-read 376 above, with particular reference to your comment after giving a list that includes knowledge in light of the normal meaning of "people." KFkairosfocus
December 9, 2013
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KF
MF: Did you not notice how you tried to confine knowledge to human beings above,
No - I can't see where I did this.Mark Frank
December 9, 2013
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MF: Did you not notice how you tried to confine knowledge to human beings above, as though we have a necessary monopoly on it? I think a conservative view on the nature, discovery/creation and possession of knowledge, would not beg that question. (By way of comparison observe above how Wiki's kids in the basement or the equivalent, tried to confine reality to the physically instantiated.) KFkairosfocus
December 9, 2013
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SB: I find it interesting to look at a few reference sources:
1] Wiki, disambiguation page: >> Reification generally refers to making something real, bringing something into being, or making something concrete, absent of evidence . . . . Reification (fallacy), fallacy of treating an abstraction as if it were a real thing >> 2] Wiki, fallacy article: >> Reification (also known as concretism, or the fallacy of misplaced concreteness) is a fallacy of ambiguity, when an abstraction (abstract belief or hypothetical construct) is treated as if it were a concrete, real event, or physical entity.[1][2] In other words, it is the error of treating as a concrete thing something which is not concrete, but merely an idea. Another common manifestation is the confusion of a model with reality. Mathematical or simulation models may help understand a system or situation but real life may differ from the model (e.g. 'the map is not the territory'). Reification is generally accepted in literature and other forms of discourse where reified abstractions are understood to be intended metaphorically,[2] but the use of reification in logical arguments is usually regarded as a fallacy. >> 3] Concise OED, 1990, i.e. paper edn: >>convert (a person, abstraction, etc) into a thing; materialize [yes they used z]>> 4] OED online just now: >> reify Pronunciation: /?ri??f??, ?re??-/ verb (reifies, reifying, reified) [with object] formal --> make (something abstract) more concrete or real: these instincts are, in man, reified as verbal constructs>> 5] Merriam Webster online: >> re·ifiedre·ify·ing Definition of REIFY: to regard (something abstract) as a material or concrete thing>> 6] AmHD: >> re·i·fy (r-f, r-) tr.v. re·i·fied, re·i·fy·ing, re·i·fies --> To regard or treat (an abstraction) as if it had concrete or material existence.>> 7] Collins ED: >> reify [?ri???fa?] vb -fies, -fying, -fied --> (tr) to consider or make (an abstract idea or concept) real or concrete >>
This is obviously a kidnapped, battered and abused word crying out for rescue from ideological captivity! (And yes, this is a deliberate metaphor.) The chief ideological culprit in the lineup is plain, as Wikipedia tosses off so blatantly:
Reification (fallacy), fallacy of treating an abstraction as if it were a real thing
Underlying ideological loading? That that which is not physically instantiated is not "real." I guess the number 2, the property of two-ness, our need for 2 parents etc are not "real" then. Nor is 2 + 2 = 4. No, no no, all of these are abstract, they cannot be real! Tut tut clucks mother hen as she gets out her big red pen to mark big red X's on the offending materials. Sorry, I don't buy that, and I take the pattern above as a good index of which dictionaries to avoid in future. (And my remaining copy of the Concise OED, 1990 just joined my mom's Merriam-Webster 7th Collegiate 1966 and my Webster's 1828 in my permanent list of treasures to be preserved at all costs and passed down under oath to preserve and hide if necessary when the ideological thought police come by. I think my will will copy something from my Grandpa: the following dictionaries and books, notes and the like on logic etc are to pass down in the family direct line in perpetuity, never to be sold, discarded, given away, donated to a library [there is such a thing as a discard instruction . . . ] or destroyed, to be preserved at all costs, in the interests of preventing a 1984-style newspeak corruption of language, thought and reason: . . . and you are not paranoid if they really are out to get you.) Further to this, above, there is no way that the set R that collects errors, x,1 x2 . . . [if any] is being treated as a physical entity, no more than the sets { } --> 0, {0} --> 1, {0, 1} --> 2, and so forth up to the world of mathematics is. Just the opposite. The point is that truth that accurately conceptualises and describes reality is real and vital. never mind that it is not made of atoms. information, which truth uses to find expression, is not measured in kilograms or Joules, but in bits, and it is just as real as the computer in front of me processing the information now being typed. Just as the mind that I am using to process said information and ideas is real and rises above and beyond the physical substrate of my brain. Let us hear J B S Haldane again:
“It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” ["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209.]
I skekkin mah haid . . . Lord, look what we have come to! KFkairosfocus
December 9, 2013
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#383 KF You are going to have to join up some dots for me. I agree with what you write to the extent that I can understand it, but cannot see the relevance of this comment to our discussion.Mark Frank
December 9, 2013
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Reciprocating Bill:
There is no “official” definition of “reify” – no government body or authority regulates its use. The closest we come to in English is the OED. The free online version defines “reify” thusly:" “Make (something abstract) more concrete or real.”
Notice that both of our official definitions are somewhat at variance. It the word "reify" means whatever you want it to mean, then anything you want to be reified is, ipso facto, reified. And if it means whatever I want it to mean, then anything I don't want to be reified is, ipso facto, not reified. If you have ever been in higher education, you will know that sociology and communication professors use and abuse that word every other day. One professor told me that "mind" was a reification. He didn't want to deal with the prospect of an immaterial faculty, so he just reified it out of existence. By contrast, I think that you will find that most people do, in fact, acknowledge the existence of truth, error, goodness, evil, and justice without any further qualification. Very few would say that these things have been reified into existence.
Attending to the “or” in that definition, one acceptable use of “reify” is, “To make something abstract more real.” Which is the sense in which I am using it.
If reification now means making something abstract "more real," as opposed to bringing it into existence, that would completely change the dynamic. With that definition, I cannot understand all your objections. As I understand it, you questioned the existence of truth, error, evil, justice etc. on the grounds that these things are mere reifications. Are you now saying that these things do exist after all in abstract form and that reification makes their existence more concrete? I understood your position to be that these things simply do not exist at all because there can be no such thing as abstract existence and that reification falsely assigns existence to them by making them concrete. In keeping with that point, are you now saying that there are levels of abstraction? If so, then where do you place truth, error, evil, justice, and good on that scale and why do you say they are not real if abstract realities can be real? Or, are you saying that they are real but not as real as they could be because they have not yet sufficiently been made concrete?StephenB
December 8, 2013
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MF: Let me take knowledge again. We have no good reason to confine this or to confine progress in this to our selves. For instance, what if there happen to be other civilisations in our galaxy? Whether or not such a state of affairs is so, we have discovered for ourselves the power and progress of knowledge but that does not give us any right to assume a monopoly on such. For instance, key mathematical concepts and constants should be common to all possible civilisations, e.g. the value of pi or e, etc. Nor is the triple-point of water going to go anywhere. And much more. KFkairosfocus
December 8, 2013
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PS: Taking truth as though it is just in the head -- more or less synonymous with strong beliefs held by the prestigious or influential -- clearly reflects a form of the Kantian ugly gulch between the inner world and that of things in themselves. F H Bradley's corrective remark from the 1890's on is apt. He who imagines to know that the world of things in themselves is unknowable, has already contradicted himself because this is a knowledge claim about that external world beyond the gulch. Safer, is to accept that our senses are imperfect but do give us significant access to states of affairs in the world. Likewise, the astonishing power of mathematics and logic in analysing, understanding, predicting and influencing that same world is a sign that -- though limited -- we are accessing key features of reality. Truth being the accurate correspondence of our ideas to reality. Knowledge, being that which is well warranted as credibly true and so is accepted (believed in the strong sense). And yes, language varies across time, but that is no excuse for its deliberate manipulation or corruption in ways that undermine clarity, precision and exactness of reference. But then, the tendency to be careless or worse, is itself likely fed by a tendency to think there is an unbridgeable gulch between the inner world and the outer one of things in themselves. Beyond a certain point, that leads us to habitually speak with disregard for duties of care to truth, accuracy and fairness -- especially if there is a perceived advantage to be gained; which, if willful, becomes deceitful and slanderous. So, this is a case of a slippery slope problem.kairosfocus
December 8, 2013
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RB: For me momentum is a primary measure of motion, the cumulative effect of force acting across time. The bigger the momentum, the harder to stop, and the bigger the impact at collision -- force being rate of change of momentum and impulse the change in momentum in the context of a collision event. There are qualitative and quantitative analogies to other dynamic situations where memory effects store up the effects of a driving variable and require a counter-drive to stop or reverse the direction of change. Thus using momentum as a qualitative term for initiative (and indicia of that), is reasonable. And, above and beyond the actual play of the game or situation, there will be a psychological effect that counts, and can be decisive out of all proportion. Which psychological effect can often be reasonably measured, rendering it both subjective and objective. "It's in your head (or heart, or belly)" does not mean it is merely subjective and/or meaningless. KFkairosfocus
December 8, 2013
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RB:
Nor is “momentum” (mis)used as a mere dramatization of the events in a game: most uses of that term clearly indicate that the commentator believes that the outcome of play on the field is actually governed by shifts in “momentum” rather than by the play itself.
I'll say instead, "above and beyond the play itself."Reciprocating Bill
December 8, 2013
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Mark Frank, from your materialist position, do you hold that the laws of nature “exist” – external from the human mind?Box
December 8, 2013
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SB:
Reification has a formal meaning [and an official definition] of unjustificably elevating (or downgrading) abstractness to the level of physical concreteness.
Formal meanings are established when communities of users (e.g. legal, professional or scientific associations, etc.) agree to a definition for the sake of clarity. It remains to be seen whether you and I can agree to a definition of “reify.” Less formal uses may have the hazards you identify, but neither the examples I described nor my use of the term in this discussion reflect synecdoche, metaphor or metonymy. So we can dispense with that objection. There is no “official” definition of “reify” - no government body or authority regulates its use. The closest we come to in English is the OED. The free online version defines “reify” thusly: “Make (something abstract) more concrete or real.” Attending to the “or” in that definition, one acceptable use of “reify” is, “To make something abstract more real.” Which is the sense in which I am using it. (And, of course, “concrete” is itself used metaphorically in many definitions of “reify,” unless you are going to insist that because you’ve haven’t converted “errors” into cement and filler, you haven’t reified.)
Ideas and concepts, unlike “momentum” and “team spirit” are real things. Ideas, concepts, and philosophies have consequences.
You miss a logical level, at the same time you illustrate a point on my behalf. Ideas and concepts are real things, but it doesn’t follow that their referents, which are often abstractions, are necessarily real. It is the referents of abstract ideas that are reified. “Momentum” in sports is an idea, no less so than ideas such as truth, error, and evil. Nevertheless, the idea of momentum reflects reification in the manner I suggest above. Nor is “momentum” (mis)used as a mere dramatization of the events in a game: most uses of that term clearly indicate that the commentator believes that the outcome of play on the field is actually governed by shifts in “momentum” rather than by the play itself. The point you make on my behalf is that it indicates your belief that “real” things are not necessarily physical things. Therefore to be “made more real” is not necessarily to be made more physical - ultimately the point of my comment in 361.Reciprocating Bill
December 8, 2013
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a non-existent number is a contradiction in terms
Precisely - so the predicate "exists" is doing no work when we say "the number 3 exists". We said all that needed to be said by simply defining the number 3.
Boiling down, the rejection of the conscience — a major facility of mind — as generally delusive fatally undermines mind, as there are no firewalls in our world of thought. We have no more reason to suppose the conscience in general to be delusive than our sense of seeing, hearing and conscious awareness. And if we start by assigning any major feature of the mind to being a general delusion, we run into a cascade of Plato’s cave shadow shows all the way down.
But a subjectivist is not saying conscience is delusive. It could only be delusive if there was an objective truth. I am not saying we think there is an objective moral reality but actually there isn’t. I am saying that moral statements are subjective assessments – albeit some of them are in overwhelming agreement with the vast majority of other people.
Reducing mind to absurdity. Instead, we properly understand that our conscious mindedness allows us to access reality, and that while we may and do err, we can and do also find out our errors step by step.
That’s your view – but I see no evidence for it.
Further, the fundamental point in MY #1, is that we see a child such as we once were, vulnerable, unable to argue effectively with a monster such as the predator Nero, easily taken captive and despoiled then destroyed. And, our consciences SCREAM, should we encounter such in progress: evil, violation of that which is of quasi-infinite worth with the same rights as we have, intervene NOW!
That is equally applicable to a strongly held, common subjective opinion and so irrelevant to the argument.Mark Frank
December 8, 2013
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Pardon, but: * Having children is a joy * I approve of people communicating with each other * The advancement of knowledge is a valuable thing . . . while subjectively experienced [as are all experiences!], are also objective.
I struggle with this. Are you really saying that they would be true even if there were no people around to have the opinion (which I think is a good criterion for objectivity)?Mark Frank
December 8, 2013
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