Space aliens – if we can see them they can see us

_{Denyse O'Leary

October 26, 2020

Exoplanets, Extraterrestrial life, Intelligent Design}

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If they are even as advanced as we are, they could spot us using the methods we use to spot exoplanets. But if they are technologically advanced, wouldn’t they be here by now?

Let’s look at the possibility that the extraterrestrial intelligences could be alive and watching us right now, using the very same methods we use to spot exoplanets. A recent open-access astronomy paper tried to calculate which aliens could actually spot us by whether Earth dims the Sun when passing it …
But now, on the other side, let’s look at the Hart-Tipler Conjecture: “Extraterrestrial intelligent beings do not exist” (1980). If they did, within 300 million years, they would have developed advanced technology and be here by now.” Or maybe by 650,000 years. Either way, they have had enough time.
News, “Space aliens could in fact be watching us” at Mind Matters News

The Hart-Tipler conjecture (they don’t exist) is, of course, very unpopular in sci-fi. But let’s confront it, if only to move on to more promising (or maybe scarier) speculations. Here are some:

1.Are the Aliens We Never Find Obeying Star Trek’s Prime Directive? The Directive is, don’t interfere in the evolution of alien societies, even if you have good intentions. Assuming the aliens exist, perhaps it’s just as well, on the whole, if they do want to leave us alone. They could want to “fix” us instead…

2.How can we be sure we are not just an ET’s simulation? A number of books and films are based on the idea. Should we believe it? We make a faith-based decision that logic and evidence together are reasonable guides to what is true. Logical possibility alone does not make an idea true.

3.Did the smart machines destroy the aliens who invented them? That’s the Berserker hypothesis. A smart deadly weapon could well decide to do without its inventor and, lacking moral guidance, destroy everything in sight. Extinction of a highly advanced civilization by its own lethal technology may be more likely than extinction by natural disaster. They could control nature.

4.Researchers: The aliens exist but they are sleeping… And we wake them at our peril. The Aestivation hypothesis is that immensely powerful aliens are waiting in a digitized form for the universe to cool down from the heat their computers emit.

5.Maybe there are just very few aliens out there… The Rare Earth hypothesis offers science-based reasons that life in the universe is rare. Even if life is rare in the universe, Earth may be uniquely suited to space exploration, as the Privileged Planet hypothesis suggests.

Does science fiction hint that we are actually doomed? That’s the implication of an influential theory as to why we never see extraterrestrials. Depending how we read the Kardashev scale, civilizations disappear somewhere between where we are now and the advanced state needed for intergalactic travel.

Comments

bornagain77:
Darwinism and Hinduism overlap in fundamental ways. For instance. ‘Aryan master race’, (which the Nazis ‘religiously’ believed in), was originally a Hindu concept,
That is not even wrong. The Sanskrit word "arya" means "noble" or "distinguished", in a social context.ET_{October 30, 2020
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More NASA astronauts weigh in Then there are a number of pilots with verified sightings.ET_{October 30, 2020
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bornagain77:
If ETs really exist, it should be overwhelming evidence that no one could doubt.
That doesn't follow. There is overwhelming evidence for intelligent design in biology and yet it is doubted by millions of people. Gordon Cooper, astronaut, discusses UFOsET_{October 30, 2020
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A more succinct geometrical phrasing occurs to me. I understand that the CMBR information puts the Earth at the center of a perpendicular axis in 3-dimensinal space; is there any information that shows we are at the center of the two horizontal axes?William J Murray_{October 30, 2020
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BA77 @49, When trying to explain something to someone who doesn't understand how what you said makes your case, cutting and pasting the same exact information and repeating that it makes your case isn't helpful. You can paste it 100 times, you can even put it in bold. It adds no explanatory value. What I do if someone is having a hard time understanding my argument is to rephrase it. I am trying to understand your argument, which is why I rephrase my questions. Maybe I'm not asking the right questions, or I misunderstand the information you've provided. Let me ask it this way. Let's assume that there's lots of intelligent life out there. They have the same scientific, mathematical and logical capacity as we do. They too would discover the fine-tuning of the universal constants and the precision of their environmental factors - fine tuned for intelligent life. The would find that the universe is flat, etc. Let's say they live far up in the "northern" hemisphere of the universe perpendicular to the CMBR preferential plane. They would find the preferential plane using CMBR technology, and realize they lived far to the "north" of that plane. Let's say that they discovered that the rotational axis of their planet is not even in alignment with that distant CMBR plane. Now lets say this alien race X has super-powered telescopes and can look at planets located on that CMBR plane. They discover a planet, Earth, that is not only on the plane, but the plane also dissects that planet exactly at its equator. Now let's say they also find another planet, planet B, on the CMBR plane 10 million light years distant from the first planet, and it also has an axis where the plane is dissecting it at it's equator. Is there any other universal architecture that prefers Earth over planet B? If so, what is it? The CMBR seems to only show a preferred plane and a preference towards planets on the plane where the plane dissects that planet at the equator. What would be the distinguishing universal architecture between Earth and planet B?William J Murray_{October 30, 2020
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BA77 @46 said:
Well WJM, actually, as Paul James-Griffiths explained in his video, there is a materialistic element to Hinduism to go along with its spiritual element.
The inclusion of "matter" in any metaphysical view, including Christianity, does not indicate an "materialistic element." Materialism by definition is that matter is all that exists (in terms of matter and energy,) Materialism cannot be extracted from Hinduism.
Darwinism and Hinduism overlap in fundamental ways. For instance. ‘Aryan master race’, (which the Nazis ‘religiously’ believed in), was originally a Hindu concept,
Overlapping aspects of ideology do not indicate that one ideology can be extracted from the other. Darwinism cannot be extracted from Hinduism, because Darwinism (as we know it today) requires materialism, and materialism cannot be extracted from Hinduism. By "extracted," I mean be a logically supportable implication. Neither Christianity or Hinduism can be logically construed support materialism or Darwinism.William J Murray_{October 30, 2020
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@ET UFO , ETs are part of mind control. I've red somewhere a doc where UFO effect was an option for submission of population ( "awe effect" produced by holograms in the sky ), among other options like start a war between blacks and whites, release a deadly virus, start "unplanned" terorist atacks . It's true on that paper was mentioned as last option .Sandy_{October 30, 2020
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WJM,,,
Unless “large scale structure of the universe” refers to something other than the CMBR data,
You are kidding right?? Once again, for the forth time,
Is there a violation of the Copernican principle in radio sky? – Ashok K. Singal – May 17, 2013 Abstract: Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR) observations from the WMAP satellite have shown some unexpected anisotropies (directionally dependent observations), which surprisingly seem to be aligned with the eclipticcite {20,16,15}. The latest data from the Planck satellite have confirmed the presence of these anisotropiescite {17}. Here we report even larger anisotropies in the sky distributions of powerful extended quasars and some other sub-classes of radio galaxies in the 3CRR catalogue, one of the oldest and most intensively studies sample of strong radio sourcescite{21,22,3}. The anisotropies lie about a plane passing through the two equinoxes and the north celestial pole (NCP). We can rule out at a 99.995% confidence level the hypothesis that these asymmetries are merely due to statistical fluctuations. Further, even the distribution of observed radio sizes of quasars and radio galaxies show large systematic differences between these two sky regions. The redshift distribution appear to be very similar in both regions of sky for all sources, which rules out any local effects to be the cause of these anomalies. Two pertinent questions then arise. First, why should there be such large anisotropies present in the sky distribution of some of the most distant discrete sources implying inhomogeneities in the universe at very large scales (covering a fraction of the universe)? What is intriguing even further is why such anisotropies should lie about a great circle decided purely by the orientation of earth’s rotation axis and/or the axis of its revolution around the sun? It looks as if these axes have a preferential placement in the larger scheme of things, implying an apparent breakdown of the Copernican principle or its more generalization, cosmological principle, upon which all modern cosmological theories are based upon. http://arxiv.org/abs/1305.4134
And again, the large scale structures of the universe, which give the earth a 'preferred position', corresponds back to the CMBR via the 'insane coincidence' of the universe being flat to 1 in 10^57
How do we know the universe is flat? Discovering the topology of the universe – by Fraser Cain – June 7, 2017 Excerpt: With the most sensitive space-based telescopes they have available, astronomers are able to detect tiny variations in the temperature of this background radiation. And here’s the part that blows my mind every time I think about it. These tiny temperature variations correspond to the largest scale structures of the observable universe. A region that was a fraction of a degree warmer become a vast galaxy cluster, hundreds of millions of light-years across. The cosmic microwave background radiation just gives and gives, and when it comes to figuring out the topology of the universe, it has the answer we need. If the universe was curved in any way, these temperature variations would appear distorted compared to the actual size that we see these structures today. But they’re not. To best of its ability, ESA’s Planck space telescope, can’t detect any distortion at all. The universe is flat.,,, Since the universe is flat now, it must have been flat in the past, when the universe was an incredibly dense singularity. And for it to maintain this level of flatness over 13.8 billion years of expansion, in kind of amazing. In fact, astronomers estimate that the universe must have been flat to 1 part within 1×10^57 parts. Which seems like an insane coincidence. https://phys.org/news/2017-06-universe-flat-topology.html
Of note, this is my absolute last time trying to explain this to you. I'm sorry. Again, I have more productive things to do today than trying to explain something to someone who apparently has a mental roadblock that prevents him from understanding..
Job 38 1. Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said: 2 “Who is this that obscures my plans with words without knowledge? 3 Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me. 4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. 5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? 6 On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone— 7 while the morning stars sang together and all the angels[a] shouted for joy?,,,
bornagain77_{October 30, 2020
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BA77, Unless "large scale structure of the universe" refers to something other than the CMBR data, repeating it doesn't change the fact it is referring to a preferential plane, not any specific location on that plane.William J Murray_{October 30, 2020
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WJM. I've repeated the large scale structure of the universe numerous times now as the piece of the puzzle that drives the nail in the coffin. It ain't rocket science. Well anyways. It seems apparent that you are committed to your view no matter what,,, I am therefore out of here. I have more productive things to do. Have a good day.bornagain77_{October 30, 2020
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BA77 @42, Unless the CMBR provides more than a plane as the identifier of Earth's preferential location, #2 cannot be false.William J Murray_{October 30, 2020
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Well WJM, actually, as Paul James-Griffiths explained in his video, there is a materialistic element to Hinduism to go along with its spiritual element. Darwinism and Hinduism overlap in fundamental ways. For instance. 'Aryan master race', (which the Nazis 'religiously' believed in), was originally a Hindu concept,bornagain77_{October 30, 2020
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ET, well, although you may find pagan sources to be credible, I certainly consider pagan sources to be false. And "Government files' certainly does not move the needle much for me either. Conspiracy theorists often rely on 'Government files' in order to support their claims. i.e. 9-11 conspiracy theorists for example.. Astronauts and Presidents is a bit more impressive, but still not compelling evidence as far as empirical science itself is concerned. If ETs really exist, it should be overwhelming evidence that no one could doubt. But as Enrico Fermi asked "Where is everybody?", ,,, ET diehards simply don't have that level of scientific evidence that would put their case beyond reasonable doubt. And you calling me 'willfully ignorant' is not going to change that fact. But anyways, I am tired of being insulted and will no longer play along with you.bornagain77_{October 30, 2020
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BA77, You can certainly draw evolution from Hindu sources - their whole thing is basically about the evolution of the soul. But you can't extract materialism from it, and Darwinism depends on materialism. You can no more extract Darwinism from Hinduism than you can extract it from Christianity.William J Murray_{October 30, 2020
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WJM, 1 true. 2. false. Again, the large scale structure of the universe drives the nail in the coffin on that point. Any other planet with observers would not see the same large scale structures of the universe 'preferring' their particular position in the universe.bornagain77_{October 30, 2020
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I call it as it is. You refuse to read the relevant documents. That is the very definition of willful ignorance. Whether or not the documents are considered pagan has NO bearing on whether or not they are true and represent reality. Governments have released their UFO files. There are literally thousands of witnesses. Some witnesses are formed NASA astronauts. Some are formed Presidents of the USA.ET_{October 30, 2020
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BA77, But you're not answer my simple yes/no questions that will unambiguously let me know if I am interpreting the CMBR data wrong. Let me try this in a true/false manner: 1. The CBMR reveals a preferential plane that dissects the known universe into "top" and "bottom" halves that also dissects the Earth at the equator. True or false? 2. Any planet anywhere on that plane, where the plane dissected its equator, in a solar system/galaxy arrangement that kept the planet's equator perfectly dissected by that plane, would see the same CMBR effect. True or false?William J Murray_{October 30, 2020
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Well ET, you certainly are not going to win any points with me by simply calling me 'willfully ignorant'. You have provided no evidence, other than the Vedas, that I can be willfully ignorant of. And the Vedas, as I explained, is certainly not to be considered a credible source by most Christian scholars. In fact, it is considered to be pagan. And apparently, as the Fermi paradox itself makes clear, I am not nearly alone in being 'willfully ignorant' of the compelling evidences for ETs that you insist exists, Apparently many high caliber scientists themselves, , as the Fermi paradox itself makes clear, are also willfully ignorant of all this compelling evidence for ETs that you insist exists.bornagain77_{October 30, 2020
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WJM, you might want to watch the video I cited before you make sweeping claims as to what Hinduism supports and what it does not support..
The Pagan Roots of The Philosophy of Evolution – Paul James-Griffiths – Paul has taught ancient history https://youtu.be/cqFChgeSJGA?t=844
bornagain77_{October 30, 2020
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WJM, my post at 31 is unambiguous. I am not proficient in any other language other than English. i.e. I don't know how to make it any easier for you to understand. The earth's 'preferred' position in relation to the large scale structures is not transferable to any other position. You apparently are desperately trying to find a workaround because of your a-priori philosophical bias against the earth being 'preferred'' in the universe.. I, on the other hand, am just fine with the evidence. Indeed, I was pleasantly surprised when I first learned about it and how it 'refined' Gonzalez's overall thesis for the 'Privileged Planet' to the earth itself, specifically.
“The same narrow circumstances that allow us to exist also provide us with the best over all conditions for making scientific discoveries.“ - Guillermo Gonzalez - Astronomer
bornagain77_{October 30, 2020
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If there's anything Hinduism doesn't support, it's materialism. Can't really get from Hinduism to Darwinism.William J Murray_{October 30, 2020
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I call it willful ignorance because that is exactly what it is. The Vedas aren't the only documentation for aliens and UFOs.ET_{October 30, 2020
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BA77, "Whatever?" The evidence you cited points to the preferred position of a plane that dissects the universe into a "top" and "bottom," not a particular point on that plane. That plane also dissects the Earth at its equator. Is that correct or incorrect? Or does the CMBR also isolate Earth's point location on that plane?William J Murray_{October 30, 2020
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ET, the Vedas, for a Christian, is certainly not to be considered a credible source. You call it 'willful ignorance'. I call it not being gullible.bornagain77_{October 30, 2020
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Whatever. Your willful ignorance on this subject is not an argument.ET_{October 30, 2020
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WJM, whatever. I've already repeated the evidence for the large scale structures of the universe several times now. Again, the earth's 'preferred' position in relation to the large scale structures of the universe is not transferable to other places in the universe despite your apparent philosophical preference that it should be transferable.bornagain77_{October 30, 2020
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ET:
Read the documentation such as the Vedas,,
You mean this?
The Vedas are a large body of religious texts originating in ancient India. Composed in Vedic Sanskrit, the texts constitute the oldest layer of Sanskrit literature and the oldest scriptures of Hinduism. - per wikipedia
Umm, seeing as the theory of evolution itself finds its deepest metaphysical root in the pagan religion of Hinduism, I'll think I'll take an extremely skeptical approach to any purported evidence arising for ETs from the Vedas.
The Pagan Roots of The Philosophy of Evolution - Paul James-Griffiths - Paul has taught ancient history https://youtu.be/cqFChgeSJGA?t=844
bornagain77_{October 30, 2020
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BA77, I don't have any such philosophical requirement. None of any of this violates MRT. My interest here is purely in the logic. Let me put my objection another way: imagine a plane that dissected the Earth at the equator extending outward. Now lets take the galaxy with the solar system and move it along that plane, keeping the Earth precisely dissected by that plane, 10 million light years in any direction along that plane. What would be the observational difference wrt the CMBR? I don't see the difference. The universe will still be observed to have a temperature difference dissected by the Earth's equatorial plane.William J Murray_{October 30, 2020
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Why do we need diplomatic relations with them in order for them to exist? And they are here. Ask the witnesses. Read the documentation such as the Vedas and the recently released government files.ET_{October 30, 2020
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ET:
To ask where in the blazes are they with respect to extraterrestrials means you are ignoring centuries of evidence.
Well, not to belittle 'centuries of evidence', but exactly how are our diplomatic relations currently going with these ETs? i.e. Exactly "where are they?"bornagain77_{October 30, 2020
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