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Stolen Obligations: Why do atheists care about truth, reason or morality?

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Truth, rationality, and morality under naturalism, are irrelevant commodities, in and of themselves. The naturalist’s (atheistic materialist’s) concern with truth, reason and morality are stolen obligations – obligations that are not derivable from naturalism.

If minds are the computed product of physics, they output whatever they output.  There is no ideal form, perfection, or “truth” outside of what physics produces in any particular instance to compare what physics produces against.  Whatever any individual computation of physics outputs with the label “rational” attached is the natural limit of what can be termed “rational”.  There’s nothing the individual can compare it against; they are stuck with their own ruler and no means by which to check its length.  What is considered “true” can be both X and not-X.

Similarly, morality is just whatever physics says it is.  Like a computer programmed to output “3” when asked “what is 1 + 1”, the computer is not in error, it is simply producing the output determined by its program.  “3” is only an “error” if one assumes there is some standard outside of that program by which to judge it; under naturalism, there is not. If the physics ends up in some case saying it is moral to behead infidels, then it is moral in that case; if in some other case it says it is immoral to do so, then it is immoral in that case.  Under naturalism, what is moral can be both X and not-X; there is no absolute arbiter.

Under naturalism, truth, reason and morality are all relative, subjective commodities (being entirely mental phenomena), housed in a mind produced by forces unconcerned with truth, reason and morality, generated by a process only “concerned” with reproductive success.  At the very core, mind cannot be said to have anything whatsoever to do with reason, truth or morality; those are just titles we assign to various output as our particular individual physics commands as those physics pursue reproductive success.

Which brings up the question: why do atheists, materialists and naturalists care whether or not their arguments are rational? Why do they care if what others say is untrue?  Why are they concerned with appearing to be “moral” or to have moral cares and considerations? Why bother with any of that at all, considering that the basis of their existence is not assumed to be about any of those things, nor is their any intrinsic reason to care about them under their paradigm?

If life is fundamentally about reproductive success, what’s the point of caring about truth, reason or morality, per se?  I find it odd that under a paradigm where those things have no intrinsic or ultimate value in and of themselves, many atheists go to great lengths to demonstrate they are more moral, more rational, and more truthful than theists. Why? Who cares? Are there points being scored somewhere for being moral, truthful, or rational?

No, under atheism/materialism/naturalism, the only points being scored are for producing children, and statistics show that atheists produce less children than theists (something they are often proud of, strangely enough).  However, they don’t seem to have read the memo.  They still argue and act as if they have some kind of binding, necessary obligation to truth, reason, and morality.

Comments
EL @ 194, In a parallel universe exists your twin, Alice. On this earth you don't believe torturing babies is ever justified. On that earth however, Alice finds great pleasure in torturing babies. Which one of you is the evil twin and why?lpadron
July 31, 2013
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Apology accepted, Alan. A better way to channel the frustration is to actually address the arguments I made. If they were so flawed, it should be easy enough for you to demonstrate that. As it is, I can only assume that you were so frustrated because my arguments are irrefutable. It brings to mind this great quote that I came across yesterday: "...it can be actively dispiriting to engage in debate with people who just don’t know how to argue, and lack the logical skills and generosity to rebut or accept a point of argument. Generally they become personally unpleasant at some point or other. I imagine it is much the same for a chess grandmaster, playing against unskilled opponents who angrily turn the board over when they lose, rather than trying to work out why and how they lost." (Peter Hitchens)Chris Doyle
July 31, 2013
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Alan
"I remain unconvinced that there is any society that lives genuinely by the philosophy that Jesus (as filtered) espoused."
Yes and that is why He died for us, a ransom no human can ever pay we all fall short. Thus saved by grace and not by works.Andre
July 31, 2013
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Barb:
My motivation for altruism has nothing to do with getting to heaven.
What is your motive for altruism, then, Barb? I find that the opportunity to help someone arises and I do what I can. I don't analyse it too much until perhaps I get the feeling of being taken advantage of, though I can't recall it being an issue.
You really need to learn a little more about world religions, Christianity in particular.
I am repelled by dogma and proselytism. It is obvious to me that social order is linked with religion as a controlling influence. What religion is a personal choice. I happen to go for "none of the above" though Buddhism does interest me (or rather some of what the Dalai Lama has written - "The World in a Single Atom", for instance - gells with me). As to Jesus, the man, no problem, his ideas as filtered by the new testament, no problem. The supernatural hocus-pocus detracts from the concepts of sharing, fellow-feeling and co-operation. I remain unconvinced that there is any society that lives genuinely by the philosophy that Jesus (as filtered) espoused.Alan Fox
July 31, 2013
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I don't think torturing babies is ever justified, Querius. I think allowing babies to die, with palliative care only, occasionally is.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 31, 2013
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Apologies to Chris Doyle. I shouldn't have allowed my irritation at your run of inane, supercilious comments to provoke me into calling you a pillock.Alan Fox
July 31, 2013
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Reading through all the posts, I could help but wonder whether torturing and killing babies is morally justified, if the life of the mother is at stake, the baby will be born severely handicapped, or in cases of rape. What do you think, Elizabeth?Querius
July 31, 2013
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Mark said:
In many issues, including morals, there is no ultimate objective criterion, but we are still able to conduct rational conversation as though there were. And it makes surprisingly little difference in most cases because there is sufficient agreement (although occasionally we hit an impasse where all the arguments have been exhausted and now we vote or fight or whatever)
This is simply not what it is like in the real world. The conversation is not rational. It is more like this: For: "We want to lay a road that goes right through those nice, unspoiled fields" Against: "We don't want you to lay a road that goes right through those nice, unspoiled fields" (BLAH BLAH BLACH: a few floaters might change their mind, most don't, most become more entrenched in fact) Result: might is right and the road-builders have might on their side and go ahead and build the road anyway. Where is the rational component of this discourse? Nowhere. Where is the objectivity (indeed, for Mark's example to apply, there can be no objectivity whatsoever)? There is no true right or wrong. The only right is might. And this is more true than ever of moral debate.Chris Doyle
July 30, 2013
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Mark, I cannot comprehend in the least why you expect others (or why you do yourself) to take "substance and weight" to be equivalents of right or wrong. Right and wrong things may have a great substance and weight, indeed the most substance and weight, but that doesn't mean that everything, especially when the terms are arbitrarily applied, said to have substance and weight rises to a level of right or wrong. And I think the examples being discussed (though I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to) show this lack of right and wrong clearly.Brent
July 30, 2013
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Phineas #182 Thanks for responding.
I don’t think you are using the word “weight” the same way, but let’s go with what you’ve got for the moment. If the pros cannot objectively outweigh the cons or the cons cannot objectively outweigh the pros and there cannot be an objectively right or wrong answer, exactly what evidence and reasoning are available beyond stating personal preferences?
Quite a lot. I can point out consequences that the other side have not thought of. “Do you realise that this road will create a parking problem as well.” I can compare the situation to others. “This is a smaller road than the one in village X and the residents accepted that” I can point out inconsistencies in their argument. “You don’t want a road but you are quite happy to have a small airport which would be even more unsightly” I can make emotional appeals “Do you really want this beautiful countryside covered in a sea of concrete for generations to come”
But I guarantee that even if the entire countryside were populated by atheists who denied the very possibility of objective truth, you’d still hear arguments as if it were objectively true that expedience is more important than preservation, or that access for emergency vehicles is more important than aesthetics, or that long-term planning is better than short-term gain, or that the needs of the many are more important than the needs of the few. And none of the participants in those arguments would stop to consider that, on pure subjectivity, the opposite of each argument is just as valid.
That might be true but that is my point. In many issues, including morals, there is no ultimate objective criterion, but we are still able to conduct rational conversation as though there were. And it makes surprisingly little difference in most cases because there is sufficient agreement (although occasionally we hit an impasse where all the arguments have been exhausted and now we vote or fight or whatever)Mark Frank
July 30, 2013
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Mark, for the record, your attempt to pass subjectivity off as the new objectivity was refuted in post 167. Please don't pretend otherwise. And please don't complain about abuse where none was given. I attacked the argument, not the person. See post 175 for abuse. Just when you and Lizzie had almost convinced me that atheists were such nice people and always valued the welfare of others ;-)Chris Doyle
July 30, 2013
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Hi Liz, Long time no see, but just prior to your UD vacation I had posted to you concerning morality the following, but was not able, for obvious reasons, to get a response from you. I now copy and paste from a blog post I made elsewhere concerning it. I'd like you to consider it. I apologize if the formatting doesn't work out very well; I'll try.
Concerning the source of a binding morality, Liz said: I’d say there are three related sources: 1.The fact that we are social animals and therefore interdependent. 2.The fact that we have “theory of mind” capacity, and can understand how the world is perceived from another person’s point of view (both literally – it probably starts with “shared gaze” capacity – and metaphorically). 3.Our language capacity, and with it, our capacity for “mental time travel” and thus the capacity to reify distant goals as they affect both others and ourselves, and thus make choices that are not solely determined by immediate personal reward. In short, it evolved. But whether you agree with me that it evolved, or argue that it was implanted in us as a gift from God, it is undeniable that we have it, because every language has a word for “ought” AFAIK, and I know of no culture in which “duty” is an unknown concept. - Emphasis mine, B.
But this is very problematic. First, Liz’s 1, 2, and 3 are not descriptions of source in the sense of where they came from ultimately, but only how we may realize their existence. It is simply giving an account of how we may come to realize them, or probably more accurately, how we can conceive that altruism (something that Liz said she thinks is another, perhaps better, term for morality) may be beneficial. But that seems in a roundabout way to imply one knows they are not “from above” and may potentially not actually be binding. But, I don’t think we need to argue about that, for Liz also said, “in short, [morality] evolved”, and it seems that her three points are meant to be taken as a description of parts of that process, then. But, if morality evolved, then it isn’t from a higher source. Even if Nature, somehow, evolved these rules apart from man, it still isn’t permissible to say that they are binding, for man is a part of Nature as much as (really, more than, being the only rational beings) anything else. So just as a man can tell Liz that she isn’t an authority over him, she being a mere co-human, a man can also say that Nature is no authority over him because he is co-Nature with Nature herself. In other words, I have the valid option of telling Nature to go take a flying leap. But of course, Liz doesn’t believe in a teleological Nature anyway, so she would have further trouble in arguing that Nature “knows what’s best” for us. At any rate, her three points above make it sound like she is saying that these binding morals evolved from man (again, which is really the same as saying from Nature, man being part of that Nature). So, she hasn’t shown a coherent way for these morals to be binding, for: If man is the source of the moral law, then man governs the moral laws, and the moral laws do not govern man. Now, the problem is what I emphasized above in quoting Liz, “it is undeniable that we have [a binding morality]”. Well, yes, it is. She has it, you have it, and both she and you know it’s binding. That isn’t the problem in itself. The problem is that when I say, “You have no grounding for your morals, to make them actually binding upon us rather than arbitrary.”, your inner “moral indignation” rises up and says, almost rightly, “Hey! I have binding morals just like you, you creep!” But it’s only almost right. The reason isn’t that you don’t have the morals claimed, but that it is answering what wasn’t asked, or defending against what was never blamed. Analogy:
Three Men Walking One normal guy walks up. I ask him to jump. He does. Another guy walks up. He is as normal as the first guy, with one exception. He is walking in the air. I ask him to jump. He tries, but cannot. He is not grounded. A third guy walks up. He is as normal as the other two, with a different exception. He is walking on the ground, but says that he doesn’t believe in the ground. I ask him to jump. He does.
Now, when I and others say you (an atheist) have no grounding for a binding morality, you think we are claiming that you are the second “guy”. “But”, you say, “Look! I can jump just as well as you!”, and you can. But I am not claiming you are the second guy at all. I’m claiming that you’re the third guy. You are grounded, and can jump as well as anyone. It’s not your grounding that’s the problem in the physical and practical sense, it’s your thinking about the ground that is wrong. Your thinking is irrational and incoherent on this point. You are denying the ground from which you can, still, jump. You can jump from now until the cows come home, but until your thinking about the ground changes, you’ll never have correct understanding of an obvious fact. You can, and do, have correct and binding morals, just as the third man can jump, but your thinking, also just like the third man, is simply incorrect.Brent
July 30, 2013
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One can believe it is important to tell the truth and be an atheist/naturalist; the question is that given atheism/naturalism, why should they?
I don't think that is really the question, is it? I think it is, given atheism/naturalism, how could one tell the truth even if they thought they should? On naturalism, everything is true, every thought a fact. Pretty boring. Everything is nothing. Nothing but gray.Brent
July 30, 2013
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Elizabeth Liddle:
So atheists in your view, don’t have a “moral compass” at all, just “subjective proclivities”.
Atheists don't have any compass whatsoever, period. Moral or otherwise. Another way to put it is that Atheists have no pole, no magnetic north, so even if they had a "compass" it would not function as intended, and thus would be no compass at all.Mung
July 30, 2013
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Alan writes,
Indeed! Can Christians be truly altruistic? They are motivated by the belief if they are very, very good, they will get to Heaven. Altruistic? Really?
My motivation for altruism has nothing to do with getting to heaven. You really need to learn a little more about world religions, Christianity in particular.Barb
July 30, 2013
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Alan,
Indeed! Can Christians be truly altruistic? They are motivated by the belief if they are very, very good, they will get to Heaven. Altruistic? Really?
That exactly the opposite of what the Christianity of the Bible teaches! Good works cannot save a person.
Well, you could ask him. Here is his website. I am sure you’ll be able to find a contact email there.
Yikes! I wouldn't expect an answer, but I'm willing to try.Querius
July 30, 2013
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Mark: Sorry, I missed you post.
It is a subjective decision whether to allow a new road, which would make life easier, to be built over beautiful countryside (let us imagine that everyone involved is genuinely striving to take into account everyone’s wishes to take the moral element out of it). It has great weight and can involve evidence and reasoning but in the end the decision is subjective.
I don't think you are using the word "weight" the same way, but let's go with what you've got for the moment. If the pros cannot objectively outweigh the cons or the cons cannot objectively outweigh the pros and there cannot be an objectively right or wrong answer, exactly what evidence and reasoning are available beyond stating personal preferences? But I guarantee that even if the entire countryside were populated by atheists who denied the very possibility of objective truth, you'd still hear arguments as if it were objectively true that expedience is more important than preservation, or that access for emergency vehicles is more important than aesthetics, or that long-term planning is better than short-term gain, or that the needs of the many are more important than the needs of the few. And none of the participants in those arguments would stop to consider that, on pure subjectivity, the opposite of each argument is just as valid.Phinehas
July 30, 2013
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In #162 above I offered an example of a decision that was subjective, non-trivial and open to rational (but not conclusive) debate. No one has even attempted to refute it. Chris has hurled a certain amount of abuse in response (presumably his theist moral code permits this?) and declared it to be rubbish . But no one has attempted to explain why it is not a valid example. I think this is key because the repeated tone of the theist camp is that the only alternative to an objective morality is caprice and whim with no foundation (never mind that in the end all theist morality involves a subjective decision that you ought to conform to it)Mark Frank
July 30, 2013
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Round and round the garden, like a teddy bear! Theos is taken care of by the "theistic" bit of "theistic morality", LT. It's a given. Without God, you cannot have theistic morality. Only atheistic morality, the kind that was so ably demonstrated by an Internet Atheist in post 175. Did I really have to spell that out?Chris Doyle
July 30, 2013
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A howler in a thread of theistic howlers:
Theistic morality does not depend upon anything
Except perhaps the Theos. Oops.
it is unconditional, absolute, universal, objective, rational and good, truly good. That is why it can never fail. Only mankind fails.
Translation: I can do anything I want and still feel like I have a path to feeling morally superior to others. Do you ever disagree with Allah on morality, or do you two coincidentally happen to share the same values?LarTanner
July 30, 2013
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Sorry, I should have said: 1. Assume nothing about God or right or wrong is truly objective.Phinehas
July 30, 2013
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Liz:
Phinehas, it seems to me that you have missed my point!
That's entirely possible! I kind of took it this way: 1. Assume nothing is truly objective. 2. See? Theism struggles just as much with subjectivity! So, what was your real point? And can you make it without assuming subjectivity as a starting point?Phinehas
July 30, 2013
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Atheistic morality at its best.Chris Doyle
July 30, 2013
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Doyle, you are a pillock!Alan Fox
July 30, 2013
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William Murray:
God as the existential, necessary grounding of good, existence, rationality, morality, will; creator of the universe; omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent inasmuch as those qualities are possible without self-contradiction.
Frankly, William, this sounds like a shopping list. You seem to have cherry-picked concepts and reassembled them to suit yourself. Now, I don't happen to be concerned about that as you are free to do as you wish within the obvious legal constraints of the society you live in. But where is the objectivity. You just took this stance. This is just what you, the subject, decided.
You are using the term “stolen concept” incorrectly. If I use another person’s concept, it’s not “stolen” unless it cannot be justified under my premises.
Borrowing without asking is stealing (unless you actually return the goods!).Alan Fox
July 30, 2013
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See-saw Marjory Daw! Theistic morality does not depend upon anything: it is unconditional, absolute, universal, objective, rational and good, truly good. That is why it can never fail. Only mankind fails. Atheistic morality is totally dependent on emotions: it is conditional, relative, fashionable, subjective, irrational and... well, there's no such thing as good in a Godless universe. That is why it fails. Only theistic morality can make an atheist act morally.Chris Doyle
July 30, 2013
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Chris
If the atheistic system of morality depends on how much you value the welfare of others… in fact, even if just once in Lizzie’s saintful (thanks to all that theistic morality she is irrationally holding on to) existence she comes across someone in moral need whose welfare she does not value (or even value enough) and so, in accordance with rationality, does not act morally towards this needy, but unvalued soul, then that is a failure of atheistic morality.
And exactly the same is true of theistic morality. So if one fails, so does the other.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 30, 2013
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Mary, Mary, quite contrary, how does your garden grow? Once again, Lizzie needs the blindingly obvious spelling out to her. How many more times? If the atheistic system of morality depends on how much you value the welfare of others... in fact, even if just once in Lizzie's saintful (thanks to all that theistic morality she is irrationally holding on to) existence she comes across someone in moral need whose welfare she does not value (or even value enough) and so, in accordance with rationality, does not act morally towards this needy, but unvalued soul, then that is a failure of atheistic morality. Sure, act immorally or refrain from acting morally when you are stupid and irrational. But if rationality ever promotes immorality or relegates morality then morality fails. Morality must always be the most rational thing to do if it is to succeed: even if you don't care one jot for the person you are acting morally towards. So, when Lizzie admitted that atheists have no reason to be moral towards people whose welfare they don't value (and, let's be completely honest here, that is at least 99.9999% of people), she effectively admitted that atheistic morality fails. So clear, so obvious, but I'm sure Lizzie will prefer to lead us down the garden path than admit it. And it doesn't matter that atheists act morally: that's just as irrational as theists that act immorally. We're all irrational from time to time, some - Mark "Subjective is the new Objective" Frank, I'm looking at you here - more than others. But we don't learn a thing about theism and atheism from their irrational proponents. We only learn about them by applying the objectivity and logic of reason. And, as Lizzie effectively admitted, atheistic morality simply cannot withstand the slightest rational scrutiny.Chris Doyle
July 30, 2013
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Phinehas, it seems to me that you have missed my point! But I guess that's the way with these conversations. Nothing connects.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 30, 2013
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Chris:
Lizzie already admitted that atheists have no reason to be moral towards people whose welfare they do not value. That is effectively an admission that atheistic morality fails.
No, it is not, Chris, and you know it, because you have to put that "effectively" in there to imply that it is, really. And I think I said (at least I meant, it's possible that I used those words) that atheists have no reason care about people whose welfare they do not value. Exactly the same is true of theists.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 30, 2013
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