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Stolen Obligations: Why do atheists care about truth, reason or morality?

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Truth, rationality, and morality under naturalism, are irrelevant commodities, in and of themselves. The naturalist’s (atheistic materialist’s) concern with truth, reason and morality are stolen obligations – obligations that are not derivable from naturalism.

If minds are the computed product of physics, they output whatever they output.  There is no ideal form, perfection, or “truth” outside of what physics produces in any particular instance to compare what physics produces against.  Whatever any individual computation of physics outputs with the label “rational” attached is the natural limit of what can be termed “rational”.  There’s nothing the individual can compare it against; they are stuck with their own ruler and no means by which to check its length.  What is considered “true” can be both X and not-X.

Similarly, morality is just whatever physics says it is.  Like a computer programmed to output “3” when asked “what is 1 + 1”, the computer is not in error, it is simply producing the output determined by its program.  “3” is only an “error” if one assumes there is some standard outside of that program by which to judge it; under naturalism, there is not. If the physics ends up in some case saying it is moral to behead infidels, then it is moral in that case; if in some other case it says it is immoral to do so, then it is immoral in that case.  Under naturalism, what is moral can be both X and not-X; there is no absolute arbiter.

Under naturalism, truth, reason and morality are all relative, subjective commodities (being entirely mental phenomena), housed in a mind produced by forces unconcerned with truth, reason and morality, generated by a process only “concerned” with reproductive success.  At the very core, mind cannot be said to have anything whatsoever to do with reason, truth or morality; those are just titles we assign to various output as our particular individual physics commands as those physics pursue reproductive success.

Which brings up the question: why do atheists, materialists and naturalists care whether or not their arguments are rational? Why do they care if what others say is untrue?  Why are they concerned with appearing to be “moral” or to have moral cares and considerations? Why bother with any of that at all, considering that the basis of their existence is not assumed to be about any of those things, nor is their any intrinsic reason to care about them under their paradigm?

If life is fundamentally about reproductive success, what’s the point of caring about truth, reason or morality, per se?  I find it odd that under a paradigm where those things have no intrinsic or ultimate value in and of themselves, many atheists go to great lengths to demonstrate they are more moral, more rational, and more truthful than theists. Why? Who cares? Are there points being scored somewhere for being moral, truthful, or rational?

No, under atheism/materialism/naturalism, the only points being scored are for producing children, and statistics show that atheists produce less children than theists (something they are often proud of, strangely enough).  However, they don’t seem to have read the memo.  They still argue and act as if they have some kind of binding, necessary obligation to truth, reason, and morality.

Comments
William
I never claimed that one cannot “conclude” that something is wrong under any premise.
Good. And do you also agree with me that it is just as self-evident to an atheist that torturing children for pleasure is wrong as it is to a theist? If not, what you have written below contradicts it. If yes, then why should it not be self-evident to an atheist?
What I have argued, more or less, is that the term “morally wrong”, under atheism, doesn’t have any greater significance than the statement that you don’t like cherry pie, and that any pretense that it means anything more is stealing a different concept of “morally wrong” from theists.
Elizabeth B Liddle
July 29, 2013
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All religious practices based on appeasing an angry God.
You got to be kidding.jerry
July 29, 2013
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In that case, tell me how you derive a morality under theism,
I personally believe it is fairly obvious for lots of reasons that the world/universe we find ourselves in was created by some entity with an immense intelligence. Thus, the main thing to derive about the creator(s) from the creation is that the intelligence to effect the creation is immense. We may be able to derive some other things from the creation but probably not a whole lot. I have seen discussions of natural law which examine just the nature of man and attempts to derive some characteristics of the creator(s) and intentions from what was created. I am sure I may get a lot of disagreement from some here on this point but I personally am not too interested in having a discussion on this. It has been examined by far more intelligent people than inhabit this site. Hence over history, people have created a lot of gods and motives to explain the world they see. As our knowledge about the world/universe increase many of these early opinions now seem antiquated. But the evidence indicating a creator has gotten better, not less as some of our early superstitions have proven false. Also there is no reason it has to be a single creator. But even with the advances in science our understanding of this intelligence is still very limited. Which brings us to the concept of "revealed religion" A lot of what we believe about this creator is based on interactions of the creator with us. I am not going to defend any specific form of revealed information here but only that it will be a main part of the basis for a moral code. This is imprecisely put but is the basis for codes that could not be derived from an analysis of the creation alone. I do not understand how one derives a code or standard of conduct from material laws alone. Oh, they can do it but it primarily represents what is known as PC, or politically correct. It will vary from time to time depending on those in power or trying to influence power and a lot of it may be consistent with the moral code derived from revealed religion. But I have had more than a few atheists say that what they believe should be a code of conduct at the present is arbitrary and could differ greatly in a short time depending upon the political situation. This doesn't mean that the individual atheist believes in this idea of political correctness but in general those in power will determine the code as has been common for millenniums as rulers have promulgated a set of procedures/beliefs on just how their subjects are to behave and believe. Some of those promulgations have benn that the ruler is to be considered a god and worshiped.jerry
July 29, 2013
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Charles:
This comes from a person who has declared on this site somewhere that for decades she was a practicing Christian, immersed in the teaching of Jesus Christ, in a country built upon the Judeo-Christian worldview, and just now, at the twilight of her life, has chosen to walk away from God and embrace the hollow cult of scientism, deceptively wiggling and dancing through these troll posts, desperately trying to escape the empty nihilism that is the logical and inescapable conclusion of her new worldview. Only one as so shameless could utter, ‘theists are welcome to borrow it’. You lack the courage to follow your chosen path to its lonely end. And you lack the humility to ask for God’s forgiveness for what you now crusade for. You are now dug in. Shaking your fist at Him, your last years on Earth spent tirelessly trying to drag down with you as many as you can.
This is so utterly ridiculous that saying so is my only response.
Where does a theist ground his morality? In He who said it is finished. So the question is not, ‘where’. Certainly, if Christ was bodily raised from the dead, He would be exactly who He claimed to be. And if he was not bodily raised, then he was a fraud. So then the question should be, do we have good reason to think that Jesus Christ was bodily raised? Any 6th grade Christian versed in elementary apologetics can make the case for the Judeo-Christian worldview. Starting with the creation event 13.7 billion years ago and leading to the resurrection event at 33 AD. Such data at best should demonstrate that the Christian worldview is more plausible than its negation, and at worst expose you as a charlatan.
OK, so you are not talking about theism in general, you are talking about Christianity, right? So is it your position that all non-Christians are equally incapable of grounding their morality? Or only atheists?Elizabeth B Liddle
July 29, 2013
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Why is it possible to conclude that torturing children for pleasure is wrong, under theism, but not, in your view, possible to conclude that torturing chidlren for pleasure is wrong, under atheism, without “stealing” a concept?
I never claimed that one cannot "conclude" that something is wrong under any premise. What I have argued, more or less, is that the term "morally wrong", under atheism, doesn't have any greater significance than the statement that you don't like cherry pie, and that any pretense that it means anything more is stealing a different concept of "morally wrong" from theists.William J Murray
July 29, 2013
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E.B Liddle 'Theists are welcome to borrow it – in fact, they can have it for free.' This comes from a person who has declared on this site somewhere that for decades she was a practicing Christian, immersed in the teaching of Jesus Christ, in a country built upon the Judeo-Christian worldview, and just now, at the twilight of her life, has chosen to walk away from God and embrace the hollow cult of scientism, deceptively wiggling and dancing through these troll posts, desperately trying to escape the empty nihilism that is the logical and inescapable conclusion of her new worldview. Only one as so shameless could utter, 'theists are welcome to borrow it'. You lack the courage to follow your chosen path to its lonely end. And you lack the humility to ask for God's forgiveness for what you now crusade for. You are now dug in. Shaking your fist at Him, your last years on Earth spent tirelessly trying to drag down with you as many as you can. Where does a theist ground his morality? In He who said it is finished. So the question is not, 'where'. Certainly, if Christ was bodily raised from the dead, He would be exactly who He claimed to be. And if he was not bodily raised, then he was a fraud. So then the question should be, do we have good reason to think that Jesus Christ was bodily raised? Any 6th grade Christian versed in elementary apologetics can make the case for the Judeo-Christian worldview. Starting with the creation event 13.7 billion years ago and leading to the resurrection event at 33 AD. Such data at best should demonstrate that the Christian worldview is more plausible than its negation, and at worst expose you as a charlatan.Charles B. Dumas
July 29, 2013
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Phinehas:
You have no warrant for telling the Aztecs or anyone else that their approach to life is somehow wrong. Or, if you do, you seem incapable of elucidating what it is.
I'm not claiming one. What I would do, if faced with a society of Aztecs, is to try to demonstrate to them that the sun will still rise even if they don't sacrifice a human being; that the crops don't depend on rituals, but on good agricultural practice; that superstition is useless. In other words, I'd substitute empirical science for religious superstition, and hope they got the message. Now, can you explain what your warrant is? How do you persuade an Aztec that s/he's got the wrong God?Elizabeth B Liddle
July 29, 2013
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It's not "inadvertent" at all, Barb. What I said, was, and what Jerry queried, was this:
And I’d say that that record is at its worst when people have acted in the belief that what they do is justified by some higher goal, whether that higher end is the will of some god, or some utopian ideal on earth.
I don't think either theism or atheism, per se, leads to morality. What I think leads to moral systems is when people get together and try to figure out what leads to a peaceful and productive society - which, time after time, turns out to be reciprocal altruism - not a "socialist dream" as William implies that I have in mind - but the simple principle that we treat others as we would like to be treated. It's the basis of most legal systems - laws that outlaw theft, murder, and exploitation of others tend to feature highly on most legislatures. So my argument is simply that it's the principle that tends to emerge when people think about how people should behave in a society, in order to make that society work well for its members. Unfortunately too often some people are excluded from the category of members - incomers, women, rival societies etc. But I think - and hope - that we have gradually enlarged our view of society over the centuries, as we have discovered more about each other, and even about other species. I don't think this has much to do with theism, if any. And I'm STILL waiting for someone to tell me how to derive moral principles from theism.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 29, 2013
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Dr. Liddle @ 67: you seem to be conflating atrocities which could have a religious background (the Inquisition, Crusades) with atrocities that have nothing at all to do with religion (Mao and Stalin's purges). You're arguing that religion doesn't necessarily lead to morality, but you're also showing (inadvertently?) that neither does atheism.Barb
July 29, 2013
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Graham2
You need god to be good.
No one is claiming this here (though a theological discussion on what Jesus meant when He said, "There is none good but God," could be interesting). The issue here is warrant. What warrant do you have for constraining the right of others to choose for themselves how they wish to behave?Phinehas
July 29, 2013
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Liz:
However, I agree that it is wrong to torture babies for pleasure. Why would not being a theist make that not the case?
From a materialist standpoint, how does telling someone that they should not torture babies for pleasure differ from telling them that they should not eat chocolate ice cream for pleasure? What gives you the right to tell anyone else what they should or should not do?
And how do you square the culture of the Aztecs (which was a religious culture) with the idea that theism somehow makes it possible to discover that such behaviour is evil?
Discovery misses the point entirely. The point is warrant for constraining another's right to choose for themselves how they wish to behave. You want to constrain how others behave, but you have no warrant for doing so. You have no warrant for telling the Aztecs or anyone else that their approach to life is somehow wrong. Or, if you do, you seem incapable of elucidating what it is.Phinehas
July 29, 2013
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jerry, I'd just ask you to think of any atrocity that hasn't happened because some people thought that what they were doing, though evil, was justified by some higher goal. I'm sure there are some. But I'd list: 9/11 Rwanda The NI Troubles The Holocaust Mao's purges Stalin's purges. Countless genocides Most colonial occupations The French revolution Pretty well all religious wars (and there are many) The burning of heretics The Inquisition The Crusades All religious practices based on appeasing an angry God.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 29, 2013
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Thanks for the list lpadron. And I might also add a number of theocracies to your list of societies that have been based on something other than the golden rule. But if you think that those societies were "peaceful and productive", I'd beg to differ (with the possible exception of Cuba). But in any case, I think you missed my point, which is that it is possible to derive, independently, the principle that reciprocal altruism is good basis on which to build a peaceful productive society. It can even be done mathematically, using game theory. Not all societies have done so (which is why I reject William's equating of "independently derived" with "consensus" and with "might makes right), and the result, generally, is violence. But what is clear is that religion has no better track record than any other.
And that still sounds a heck of a lot like self interest or “because it makes me feel good”.
I think that interpreting "value" as "feel-good" is to miss an important point. What we value is what we seek - the "pearl of great price" if you like. It needn't be what makes us "feel good", and certainly not feel-good in the here and now. In that sense all behaviour is "self-interest" whether it's self-sacrificial or not. But I'd say it was value-led, rather than self-interest led, because we pursue what we value, whether that is our selves or the well-being of others. And my position is that atheists are as capable of valuing the well-being of others as theists are. Not only that, but they can derive a perfectly good moral system based on the principle that if everyone treats others as they would be treated themselves, everyone will be better off. Theists are welcome to borrow it - in fact, they can have it for free. Because I am still waiting for anyone to explain how to derive a moral principle from theism.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 29, 2013
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You need god to be good. Sigh. Could someone explain that to the Pope, and all those priests ?Graham2
July 29, 2013
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And I’d say that that record is at its worst when people have acted in the belief that what they do is justified by some higher goal, whether that higher end is the will of some god, or some utopian ideal on earth.
And I’d say that that is nonsense. I suggest pointing to specific instances. I am interested to see what is proposed to support the above statement. By the way, I am quite familiar with the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Thirty Years War and the Salem Witch trials, some of which have been brought up by people in the past to justify similar statements. Let's compose a list of the "worst."jerry
July 29, 2013
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EL, I'll add 4 to Charles' list of peaceful, productive anti-Golden Rule types: the Soviet Union, Mao's China, Castro's Cuba. Quite peaceful and productive in many ways despite the murder, genocide, prostitution, etc.. I'll thrown in Rome for good measure. You wrote: "I’m not saying that you ought to avoid eclairs because they’ll make you fat. I’m saying that we all experience conflict between what we want NOW and what else we value – our own future health, the well-being of others. And that’s where morality originates." I understand. And that still sounds a heck of a lot like self interest or "because it makes me feel good". Prior to that you wrote: "Indeed any morality that declares that what is good is what God wants is, in my view, morally bankrupt, as William Lane Craig demonstrates. What kind of “morality” is it, that declares genocide and sexual slavery “good” simply because God commanded it?" Why would it be morally bankrupt for God to declare genocide and sexual slavery good? He wants to eat the eclair. You don't want to. How is your abstaining from the eclair (for whatever reason) be any better than His enjoying it?lpadron
July 29, 2013
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In a letter to William Graham on July 3, 1881, Darwin wrote: "Nevertheless you have expressed my inward conviction, though far more vividly and clearly than I could have done, that the Universe is not the result of chance. But then with me the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" The epistemological nihilism inherent in Darwin's theory ultimately becomes the refutation of every Darwinist. If we are the chance products of Darwin's undirected processes from our purported ape-like ancestors, what possible convictions could any of us have regarding our own "certainties" (Prothero, Poenie, and Matzke not excepted)? - ,, it is worth remembering that the Cambrian explosion wasn't Darwin's only doubt.,, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/07/darwins_other_d074911.htmlbornagain77
July 29, 2013
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In that case, tell me how you derive a morality under theism, William. You may think you have done so, but you have not. Why is it possible to conclude that torturing children for pleasure is wrong, under theism, but not, in your view, possible to conclude that torturing chidlren for pleasure is wrong, under atheism, without "stealing" a concept?Elizabeth B Liddle
July 29, 2013
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I think WJM would argue that it’s wrong to torture babies even if there were absolutely no necessary consequences. I can’t see how that would be the case from an atheist’s POV.
The thing to be wary of, lpadron, is when mixed concepts are being used because of stolen terminology. When a theist speaks about a moral "wrong", they are talking about an objective fact that has necessary consequences in terms of impeding a final, divine cause - our purpose, the purpose of the world and existence. When an atheist speaks about a moral "wrong", they are talking about nothing more than a personal, subjective feeling, or about actions that serve a cause they personally think should be pursued - such as Liz's "happy society". Moral "oughts", to atheists (despite their attempts at Rube Goldberg redefinitions and compatibalisms), are just feelings - things they feel they ought do, or ought not do, for no more reason than they personally like or dislike a particular goal they believe the behavior pursues. Liz thinks pursuing maximal happiness is "moral"; others think pursuing maximal obedience to a manuscript is "moral"; other think that property and wealth is immoral; others think that homosexuality is immoral; others think that stealing from corporations is moral... etc. Without an absolute to sift through the morass of personal views, feelings and ambitions, what we are left with is nothing other than consensus/might makes right, manipulation and rhetoric as people group up and find ways to support and enact their particular "moral" compass. There are, of course, no necessary consequences involved; consequences are haphazard, unpredictable and often arbitrary. You might do something you feel is right, but then everything goes to hell because of it, or do wrong and good things come about because of it. There is the law of unintended consequences, where even the best intentions can end up serving a dire end. If all we have to look at is the physical world, we can see this is an obviously true statement; evil men can prosper; good men can be vilified; vicious groups can rule and enjoy life; kind and caring groups can be horribly annihilated. Liz's particular subjective moral cause - a socialist dream of a happy state where morality = some sort of social justice - has been tried before, and has resulted in the deaths of tens of millions in wars and cultural cleansings. It's obvious from history that the ideal of creating some sort of social utopia on Earth always falls to bitter ends because of base human nature. So when I say that without necessary consequences, there is no right and wrong, I mean it in the theistic, significant sense where "right" and "wrong" mean more than "personal like" and "personal dislike", and moral actions are in pursuit of something more than just personally held social or political ideals. The absence of necessary consequences doesn't mean that my personal likes and dislikes (atheistic morality) disappear; it just makes my behavior largely irrelevant to the ends. If good behavior can bring about bad ends, and vice versa, there's really no reason to lend much thought to whether or not what you are doing is good or bad - the outcome is unpredictable even in terms of subjective goals. Only if consequences are inevitably and absolutely attached to what one wills, regardless of if we can see those outcomes or not, and even if what appears to result is negative, can we have faith that our good behavior will ultimately aid in the good purpose - which provides reason to call something "wrong", and stick by it, even to one's own misery and death. IOW, if I knew there was no God, and that my actions had no necessary consequences, I would still dislike (hate, even) the idea of torturing children for pleasure, but if it came down to torturing children for pleasure or being killed by a society that demands such activity, I'd pull out my lighter and hammer and try my best to enjoy it, because I have no compelling reason to cling to my personal preference ... because there are no necessary consequences to any purpose being served in not torturing them, thus no reason other than personal, subjective feeling to call that act "wrong". At that point, I might as well agree with Liz et al that "What is right" is determined by consensus, and admit I was wrong about not torturing children, and fall in line with what society says is moral. Under atheism/naturalism, it could only be self-serving, egocentric zealotry to insist that torturing children for pleasure was wrong when society insists it is right, to insist that my personal view was "more right" or "better" than the consensus of experts. It would be deluded insanity to carry that conviction to my own death by refusing to partake in the torture of children. It is only by Divine, absolute morality, with necessary consequences, that there is reason for and value in standing up against all others for what is right even to your own miserable end. For an atheist/naturalist to do so could only be explained under their paradigm as egomaniacal narcissism.William J Murray
July 29, 2013
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Charles: tell me, given that you do not think that morality can be derived under atheism, how do you derive it under theism?Elizabeth B Liddle
July 29, 2013
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Charles:
And if some have to be forced into it, well, then that is all for the continued flourishing, the greater good, of the society.
What makes you say this? And how do you square the culture of the Aztecs (which was a religious culture) with the idea that theism somehow makes it possible to discover that such behaviour is evil?
William Murray has done a fascinating job at lifting up the rock and shining a light on these liddle charlatans.
I'm not seeing lack of charity coming from the atheists here.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 29, 2013
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Elizabeth B Liddle: "Can you name one?" *snicker* Just one?. History and contemporary earth is filled with such examples of this type of thing. "In Netherlands, the Bureau of the Dutch Rapporteur on Trafficking in Human Beings in 2005 estimated that there are from 1,000 to 7,000 trafficking victims a year. Most police investigations relate to legal sex businesses, with all sectors of prostitution being well represented, but with window brothels being particularly overrepresented.[55][56][57] Dutch news site Expatica reported that in 2008, there were 809 registered trafficking victims in the Netherlands; out of those 763 were women and at least 60 percent of them were reportedly forced to work in the sex industry." -So in the Netherlands, the legal sex trade does not seem to hinder this peaceful and productive society one bit. Would an atheist in the Netherlands tell their 18 year old daughter that the legal practices of their productive and peaceful society are actually somehow immoral? Fail. The peak of the particular evolutionary path in which Netherlands finds itself is one of a productive, peaceful society in which it is legal in parts to rent bodies for sex. Why shouldn't your daughter choose such a path? Further, the illegal sex slavery does not in any way hinder the peace or productivity of the Netherlands atheist culture. In fact it may help maintain it. As long as the productive men in the society have a place to get sex and release some tension, this might aid in their effort to be more productive in which a fully stocked sex industry may benefit to the overall flourishing of the Netherlands. And if some have to be forced into it, well, then that is all for the continued flourishing, the greater good, of the society. The Incas, Mayans, Aztecs are famous for having thriving, prosperous civilizations that have contributed to some of the most amazing architectures and fascinating languages on Earth, and they all were based on human, adult and child, sacrifice. They're particular evolutionary pathway that they found themselves at the apex of, was one of prosperous flourishing and baby killing. An atheist has not a single grain of sand to stand in in condemning their moral framework due to the unique evolutionary pathway these people happened to find themselves on. It gets even more absurd when atheist post-modern slight of hand hucksters try to sell us such a moral framework. The Matses: "The Matses are polygamists like many other Amazonian tribes with each man having one or more wives. Until recently, the Matses men commonly kidnapped and assimilated women from other tribes (or Peruvian and Brazilian women) into Matsés society." The current point of the Matses's unique evolutionary pathway is one where polygamy happens to be moral. Further, kidnapping ones wife from other tribes was also moral practice. The atheist has not a grain of sand to stand on in condemning these people (who have persisted for ages) for their moral behavior. What works for the mastes works for the matses. William Murray has done a fascinating job at lifting up the rock and shining a light on these liddle charlatans.Charles B. Dumas
July 29, 2013
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KF asserts:
And you are right, secularist, scientistic evolutionary materialism is self referentially incoherent and falls of its own weight.
Wishful thinking, I'm afraid. The trend is to leave dogmatism behind and emerge into pragmatism. PS How is your son? Health issues under control?Alan Fox
July 29, 2013
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Jerry, a voice of reason in the wilderness, says:
We would need to examine what are supposed to be altruistic acts.
Indeed! Can Christians be truly altruistic? They are motivated by the belief if they are very, very good, they will get to Heaven. Altruistic? Really?Alan Fox
July 29, 2013
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Querius asks:
I wonder whether Dawkins personally aspires to this description, attaining a sort of atheist nirvana without any illusions of morality. Or maybe . . . - He elevates a Darwinistic ideal, the survival and evolution of life on Earth, as his ultimate morality. - He takes an anthropological perspective to consider pragmatic community values to ensure harmony and the perpetuation of humanity as his ultimate morality. - He’s adopted a more selfish view that enhances his fame and book sales. Any ideas?
Well, you could ask him. Here is his website. I am sure you'll be able to find a contact email there.Alan Fox
July 29, 2013
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I cannot but regret the animosity towards you, conveyed by my #25, Jerry, since the love of money, which seems to have taken hold of all you monied, American Christians on here, seems so anomalous in the context of who you have shown yourselves to be, in general, as Christians. Nevertheless, it is a relief to me that you considered it pointless to respond to me, for whatever reason, since I could no more argue on this subject without a very labour-intensive transcription of scripture, than I could with our materialist friends on the basis of their deranged assumptions. Just John's NT writings are replete with strictures concerning the money we possess and our duties to use it to significantly assist the stranger, the prisoner, the orphan and the widow et al. And I could never have imagined that I would feel the need to re-post this link: http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/quotes-from-the-fathers-on-mercy-that-might-enlighten-or-offend-you Just two final points I'd like to raise: Why growth? Why? Why? Why? It's not necessary at all, yet for all of you, it is nothing less than the 'bottom line'. I'll admit that in a 'dog eat dog' geopolitical world, unilateral sanity might be an open invitation to another predatory nation or coalition of nations to invade and occupy. However, it IS madness; and stating your objections as Christians, might have gone some way towards 'tempering the wind to the shorn lamb', as did the British Labour Party, founded by Methodist lay-preacher, Keir Hardie, after WWII - before it was taken over lock-stock and barrel by the godless, who, once their own feet were some way up the ladder, found the far-right, neoliberal economics of Thacherdom (a nationwide extension of the Highland Clearances of the 19th century), much more congenial. The second point, also rhetorical in intent, how do you think the malefactors would have been able to rescind Sarbanes-Oxley, without first fallaciously discrediting Keynes, the man who brought us out of the last Great Depression (despite right-wing denials), arising from the very same villainy as has led to this pretty pass, which the whole world now faces. And, of course, they would have discredited or silenced in one way or another, any other objectors standing in their way? The US today is a society in a much worse position than in the thirties, to cope with what appears to be in the pipeline - not least because the population is now so much more urbanized. It was reported yesterday that already 80% of your population is either in poverty or close to it, right now. And God hasn't even begun to stir the pot yet, with the more biting effects of resource depletion and global, climate change further down the line. However, making endless economic growth the ultimate aim, to which even considerations of morality must defer, is insanity, (im)pure and simple, and infinitely immoral. End of rant. Thank you for your patience.Axel
July 29, 2013
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lpadron:
I fail to see what your problem with genocide and sex slavery is. Many different people have independently discovered that these engaging in thse can lead to peaceful, productive societies too.
Can you name one?
It’s also significant that the anti-Golden Rule has emerged as a moral principle across all cultures equally as often. It also underlies an equal number of legal systems. What to do?
Can you name some?
From an atheistic POV it’s not at all evident that torturing babies is wrong.
In that case it can't be self-evidently true as William claims. I think it is pretty self-evidently true myself, but can you explain why it should be so to a theist but not to an atheist?
I think WJM would argue that it’s wrong to torture babies even if there were absolutely no necessary consequences. I can’t see how that would be the case from an atheist’s POV.
I would hope he would, but he's written stuff that implies otherwise - that without belief in necessary consequences there would be no reason to think it is wrong. However, I agree that it is wrong to torture babies for pleasure. Why would not being a theist make that not the case?
First, your “ought” seems merely another way of saying “in my best self interest” as far as I can tell.
Not necessarily. It can be - I'm sure we've all said that we "ought" not to do something because we know that it is not in our own self interest, even though we want to. But equally we say that we "ought" not to do something if it is not in others interest. So, no, not all "oughts" are in our own best interest.
Second, when you object to genocide and sex slavery you go from saying “I want to be thinner so I ought not eat chocalate eclairs” to “I want to be thinner so YOU ought not eat them either”. But, really, why shouldn’t I? I happen to like eclairs and think I look just fine. I don’t see how *I’m* obligated to not eat eclairs because *you’re* feeling a little on the paunchy side. See?
I think you've missed my point. I'm not saying that you ought to avoid eclairs because they'll make you fat. I'm saying that we all experience conflict between what we want NOW and what else we value - our own future health, the well-being of others. And that's where morality originates.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 29, 2013
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Joe: I would be interested to know if anyone is prepared to argue that, understanding what is meant by "torturing babies for pleasure is wrong," this is not blatantly true, and/or that the attempt to deny it does not land one instantly in monstrous absurdity. (And, BTW, there HAVE been cases, sadly.) It seems rather that the attempt is being made to belittle, brush off and dismiss the force of there being self-evident moral truths. Which this case shows to be so by example. And you are right, secularist, scientistic evolutionary materialism is self referentially incoherent and falls of its own weight. KFkairosfocus
July 29, 2013
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EL "It doesn’t, reliably, but at least naturalists don’t pretend that total objectivity is possible – that the way we discover things is by finding out what works, independently, and comparing notes. And if many different people and societies conclude that the moral system that produces a productive and peaceful society is one based on reciprocal altruism with penalties for cheaters, then we can at least conclude that it’s something that can be independently arrived at...." I fail to see what your problem with genocide and sex slavery is. Many different people have independently discovered that these engaging in thse can lead to peaceful, productive societies too. Why prefer one over the other? Or why are we obligated to one over the other? "And it’s significant, I think, that the Golden Rule has emerged so often as the fundamental moral principle, from many different cultures. And also, signficant, I think, that it underlies most legal systems in democratic states." It's also significant that the anti-Golden Rule has emerged as a moral principle across all cultures equally as often. It also underlies an equal number of legal systems. What to do? "He starts from what he considers a “self-evident” moral truth (that torturing babies for pleasure is wrong). I see no reason why you have to be a theist to find this “self-evident”, and he doesn’t invoke it." From an atheistic POV it's not at all evident that torturing babies is wrong. Just one viewing of the National Geographic and History channels will convince anyone of that. From an atheistic POV what does it mean for torturing babies to be "self-evidently wrong" anyway? "He only invokes theism to explain why you would pay any attention to this self-evident moral truth (because you’d worry about the “necessary consequences” of violating it)." I think WJM would argue that it's wrong to torture babies even if there were absolutely no necessary consequences. I can't see how that would be the case from an atheist's POV. "Because of conflicts between what we want for ourselves, immediately, and what we want, for the future, for ourselves and others. Once a being is capable of seeing and valuing both the immediate and more remote consequences of a choice, then, when one conflicts with the other, the need for a word, or concept, such as “ought” will become necessary: I want this chocolate eclair, but I want to be thinner, so I ought not to eat it; I want this chocolate eclair, but I also want to make my children happy, so ought to spend the money on a packet of chocolate biscuits to take home." First, your "ought" seems merely another way of saying "in my best self interest" as far as I can tell. Second, when you object to genocide and sex slavery you go from saying "I want to be thinner so I ought not eat chocalate eclairs" to "I want to be thinner so YOU ought not eat them either". But, really, why shouldn't I? I happen to like eclairs and think I look just fine. I don't see how *I'm* obligated to not eat eclairs because *you're* feeling a little on the paunchy side. See?lpadron
July 29, 2013
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The Story of Jesus: History or Hoax? Peter J. Williams and Bruce Zuckerman at USC - veritas video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U47TTG4JiEcbornagain77
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