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Stolen Obligations: Why do atheists care about truth, reason or morality?

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Truth, rationality, and morality under naturalism, are irrelevant commodities, in and of themselves. The naturalist’s (atheistic materialist’s) concern with truth, reason and morality are stolen obligations – obligations that are not derivable from naturalism.

If minds are the computed product of physics, they output whatever they output.  There is no ideal form, perfection, or “truth” outside of what physics produces in any particular instance to compare what physics produces against.  Whatever any individual computation of physics outputs with the label “rational” attached is the natural limit of what can be termed “rational”.  There’s nothing the individual can compare it against; they are stuck with their own ruler and no means by which to check its length.  What is considered “true” can be both X and not-X.

Similarly, morality is just whatever physics says it is.  Like a computer programmed to output “3” when asked “what is 1 + 1”, the computer is not in error, it is simply producing the output determined by its program.  “3” is only an “error” if one assumes there is some standard outside of that program by which to judge it; under naturalism, there is not. If the physics ends up in some case saying it is moral to behead infidels, then it is moral in that case; if in some other case it says it is immoral to do so, then it is immoral in that case.  Under naturalism, what is moral can be both X and not-X; there is no absolute arbiter.

Under naturalism, truth, reason and morality are all relative, subjective commodities (being entirely mental phenomena), housed in a mind produced by forces unconcerned with truth, reason and morality, generated by a process only “concerned” with reproductive success.  At the very core, mind cannot be said to have anything whatsoever to do with reason, truth or morality; those are just titles we assign to various output as our particular individual physics commands as those physics pursue reproductive success.

Which brings up the question: why do atheists, materialists and naturalists care whether or not their arguments are rational? Why do they care if what others say is untrue?  Why are they concerned with appearing to be “moral” or to have moral cares and considerations? Why bother with any of that at all, considering that the basis of their existence is not assumed to be about any of those things, nor is their any intrinsic reason to care about them under their paradigm?

If life is fundamentally about reproductive success, what’s the point of caring about truth, reason or morality, per se?  I find it odd that under a paradigm where those things have no intrinsic or ultimate value in and of themselves, many atheists go to great lengths to demonstrate they are more moral, more rational, and more truthful than theists. Why? Who cares? Are there points being scored somewhere for being moral, truthful, or rational?

No, under atheism/materialism/naturalism, the only points being scored are for producing children, and statistics show that atheists produce less children than theists (something they are often proud of, strangely enough).  However, they don’t seem to have read the memo.  They still argue and act as if they have some kind of binding, necessary obligation to truth, reason, and morality.

Comments
It seems to me that the underlying issue that is finally being revealed here is not that theists have some hotline to objective moral standards denied to atheists who have no basis from which to derive them, but the idea that without belief in a God, there is no reason to derive moral standards in the first place. amirite? If so, then I suggest there are plenty of reasons to derive moral standards that have nothing to do with whether or not there is a God. Some of them will be terrible, and some will be good, but at least we have established that that's not the point.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 30, 2013
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'If you can’t tell whether your moral tenets are true or not, why is your problem “immeasurable” less than some putative person who doesn’t think the question makes a great deal of sense in the first place?' Is there no-one who can explain to you the meaning of the term, 'a priori'? No-one at all?Axel
July 30, 2013
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You see, you proved once again, you are incapable of understanding first priniciples. What we are saying is not that we can demonstrate the process whereby we derive our moral principles, or that we can prove their validity. INDEED, TECHNICALLY-SPEAKING, WE COULD BE MISTAKEN IN THE WAY IN WHICH WE DERIVE OUR MORALITY. BUT WE ARE NOT DEBARRED THEREFROM, A PRIORI, AS YOU ATHEISTS ARE. So, the answer from me to your question: 'Please will someone step up to the plate and show me a moral principle that is derived from theism, with your working.' .. is a resounding, and totally unashamed, NO! You see, unlike your contention, the potential for our moral tenets being true is not disqualified 'a priori'. AND YOUR PROBLEM IN THIS REGARD IS LITERALLY IMMEASURABLY GREATER THAN OURS. We don't need to show you the workings whereby we arrive at our belief in our capacity for morality. You cannot disprove its basis in truth, but the only reason we cannot disprove your claim to morality is because it never made sense to begin with, a priori (a curiously deceptive appearance of a tautology, incidentally). It would be a QED, when there was nowt to demonstrate. It's just that you athesits are so used to your own illogic, your own nonsense, that you never tire of peddling it as serious reflection. Your #99: Yet another example of your completely missing the point being made by me. Indeed, you could scarcely have misread my post more demonstrably. Your thumb-nail spiritual autobiography would deeply impress someone for whom the chief attraction of the RC church was its intellectual scope and profundity. Believe me there would have been many eminent scripture scholars and theologians who have abandoned the faith - some alas, even, without realising it. Religion is essentially AFFECTIVE, not cerebral. The analytical intelligence only has its spiritual uses when grounded in a personal bonding with the Creator, who is spirit; and even then is of secondary importance, above the level of demotic speech. Love and moral beauty, very very closely associated, are all. Love is not a negation of the intellect however, but its ground. The Catholic church, forty or so years ago, was badly infected by this trend, a form of intellectual elitism, which I believe Francis I categorises as a form of gnosticism. The Catholic newspapers were full of reviews of books written by Catholic lay-intellectuals, and there was a distinct sense that Christ, and indeed, the supernatural were considered quite down-market. It was the flowering of a strain that must always have existed in some measure in the church, so that St Martha, whose feast-day it is today, has traditionally and perversely, been associated with the manual worker, Mary, her sister, with the 'creme de la creme', the contemplative monks, mostly drawn from the ranks of professionals and the aristocracy in the Carthusians, when a little reflection should make it obvious that those respective statuses were misallocated. Ironically, the Carthusians had religious brothers to cook their meals for them and generally look after them while they contemplated, when if anything, it should have been the other way around. People don't live on country estates and in leafy suburbs because they are simply nice. No, it's because their hearts are more set on material possessions and status. Busy, busy, busy. Growth, growth, growth. So essential. Not! I'm only talking abut he children of light, now. There is no rhyme or reason in the behaviour of the children of darkness. Must gang awa for a while.Axel
July 30, 2013
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Axel
You see, you proved once again, you are incapable of understanding first priniciples. What we are saying is not that we can demonstrate the process whereby we derive our moral principles, or that we can prove their validity. INDEED, TECHNICALLY-SPEAKING, WE COULD BE MISTAKEN IN THE WAY IN WHICH WE DERIVE OUR MORALITY.
Precisely.
BUT WE ARE NOT DEBARRED THEREFROM, A PRIORI, AS YOU ATHEISTS ARE.
Debarred from what?
So, the answer from me to your question: ‘Please will someone step up to the plate and show me a moral principle that is derived from theism, with your working.’ .. is a resounding, and totally unashamed, NO!
And I appreciate it. I'd really had enough of this skittishness. No, you can't derive moral principles from theism, any more (or less) than you can from atheism.
You see, unlike your contention, the potential for our moral tenets being true is not disqualified ‘a priori’. AND YOUR PROBLEM IN THIS REGARD IS LITERALLY IMMEASURABLY GREATER THAN OURS.
I don't see why, and shouting doesn't make you any clearer. If you can't tell whether your moral tenets are true or not, why is your problem "immeasurable" less than some putative person who doesn't think the question makes a great deal of sense in the first place? Both are stuck with trying to figure out what we ought to do for the best in an imperfect world, knowing that there is no way of knowing for sure which is right. Unless you are suggesting that the problem is not one atheists need consider. Which would be odd, but I guess lies at the heart of all this.
We don’t need to show you the workings whereby we arrive at our belief in our capacity for morality. You cannot disprove its basis in truth, but the only reason we cannot disprove your claim to morality is because it never made sense to begin with, a priori (a curiously deceptive appearance of a tautology, incidentally).
You really aren't making much sense to me, Axel.
It would be a QED, when there was nowt to demonstrate. It’s just that you athesits are so used to your own illogic, your own nonsense, that you never tire of peddling it as serious reflection.
I'm tempted to ask you to look in the mirror.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 30, 2013
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How do you penalize those that have for whatever reason gotten the short-end of the Darwinian stick because some random mutation “broke” their conscience or ability to see right from wrong? Those people can not be held accountable for their actions in a naturalistic world.
I don't see why not, Andre. Holding people accountable for their actions is a very good way of helping them take responsibility for them, regardless of the genetic or environmental hand they have been dealt. And a system that implements the contract that membership of a society that depends on people playing fair, is contingent on actually playing fair it by withholding membership, temporarily, if that contract is broken, is a fairly (but not terribly) good way of motivating people to play fair. But it is not my position that retribution should have any role in a penal system. The rationale for punishment, it seems to me consists of the following functions: Deterrence - demonstrating that full membership of society is contingent on playing fair Rehabilitation - helping people to take fuller responsibility for their actions Restitution - helping people to put right, inasmuch as they can, the harm they cased Prevention - keeping society secure from people who seem unable to take moral responsibility for their actions. All functions are perfectly compatible with a naturalistic world.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 30, 2013
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Exactly, lpadron. And I would agree that it is unlikely that "anything approximating universal obligation is possible with what atheism offers". The best we can do, I think, is muddle through, finding out what works, iteratively refining what we mean by "works", and noting that as human beings we have a quite remarkable, and slightly peculiar capacity for reifying the pursuit of the well-being of others as a "good" worth making great personal sacrifices for. And I suggest that this is where religion comes in - as a way of personifying this reified "good" - and that by making the leap of faith that such a personified good is objectively real in some way, at best, theists are motivated to great deeds (although it must also be said that great deeds are also possible without such objectification of good as God). As you say "generic brand theism" doesn't provide any better grounding for moral principles than atheism. The trouble is that while some specific brands may (the brand, for instance, that says that God is Love and that the greatest commandment is to Love one another as I have loved you), we have no objective way of choosing the "right" brand, other than by deriving the principles first, and choosing the brand that best matches them.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 30, 2013
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Dr Liddle
And if many different people and societies conclude that the moral system that produces a productive and peaceful society is one based on reciprocal altruism with penalties for cheaters,
How do you penalize those that have for whatever reason gotten the short-end of the Darwinian stick because some random mutation "broke" their conscience or ability to see right from wrong? Those people can not be held accountable for their actions in a naturalistic world.Andre
July 30, 2013
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EL, I can see the problem. Moral principles, at least objective ones, can't be "discovered" with generic brand theism anymore than with atheism. But the problem remains of how anything approximating universal obligation is possible with what atheism offers. At least I haven't seen that from your posts. Theism doesn't seem to have that problem. I think that's where WJM started this before eclairs entered the equation...lpadron
July 30, 2013
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You see, you proved once again, you are incapable of understanding first priniciples. What we are saying is not that we can demonstrate the process whereby we derive our moral principles, or that we can prove their validity. INDEED, TECHNICALLY-SPEAKING, WE COULD BE MISTAKEN IN THE WAY IN WHICH WE DERIVE OUR MORALITY. BUT WE ARE NOT DEBARRED THEREFROM, A PRIORI, AS YOU ATHEISTS ARE. So, the answer from me to your question: 'Please will someone step up to the plate and show me a moral principle that is derived from theism, with your working.' .. is a resounding, and totally unashamed, NO! You see, unlike your contention, the potential for our moral tenets being true is not disqualified 'a priori'. AND YOUR PROBLEM IN THIS REGARD IS LITERALLY IMMEASURABLY GREATER THAN OURS. We don't need to show you the workings whereby we arrive at our belief in our capacity for morality. You cannot disprove its basis in truth, but the only reason we cannot disprove your claim to morality is because it never made sense to begin with, a priori (a curiously deceptive appearance of a tautology, incidentally). It would be a QED, when there was nowt to demonstrate. It's just that you athesits are so used to your own illogic, your own nonsense, that you never tire of peddling it as serious reflection.Axel
July 30, 2013
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Axel
I don’t think so, Elizabeth. As I mentioned before, it seems to me that your Christianity must have been of a conventional church-going type, without any personal bonding and relationship with Christ, through the Holy Spirit…. which is of the very essence. There again, that word, ‘personal’.
It seems that you have assumed your conclusion Axel. I can only have been a "conventional" Christian because I ceased to be one. Is it not possible, in your view, for a "real" Christian" to cease to be one? Is ceasing to be one sufficient evidence that a person wasn't a "real" Christian in the first place? I take it you did read my earlier response to this inference of yours. In case not, here it is again, reposted at TSZ, with some interesting stories from others in comments, and here is the original, at UD.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 30, 2013
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'I’m an extremely reluctant one, as I think I have explained, several times...' I don't think so, Elizabeth. As I mentioned before, it seems to me that your Christianity must have been of a conventional church-going type, without any personal bonding and relationship with Christ, through the Holy Spirit.... which is of the very essence. There again, that word, 'personal'. No. I can't prove your Christian faith was, in fact, superficial, a simulacrum of faith. Nor you, the converse. We must settle for our opinions here.Axel
July 30, 2013
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What is far more "ironical", Axel, is that no-one will answer it. While condemning atheism for not providing any basis from which to derive moral principles, no-one will tell me how to derive a moral principle from theism. Please will someone step up to the plate and show me a moral principle that is derived from theism, with your working.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 30, 2013
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'But not one theist so far has even attempted to show how any moral principle can be derived from theism.' It's very ironical that you should ask this question, since it goes right to the heart, not of morality, but of the theism/materialism controversy. We have seen any number of indications of the truth of theism, indeed, Christianity on this blog - no, I'm not going to plough through them for you - and this enables the theist to say, well, you may dispute the provenance of my morality and hence its validity, but I am physiologically capable of defying my natural urges to pursue selfless goals. You are not. Of course, a sophist might say, that, well, even accepting crucifixion to witness to one's faith, can be construed as an act of self-interest. But then atheists are never able to draw a line; everything can made circular.* Endless abstraction affords that potential. So, in a sense there is a weird logic to this (although anything but an affirmation of their position), in that they resolutely repudiate the personal nature of reality through the prism of QM, clinging to scientism. By doing so, they thereby flesh out the truth of QM, personally confirming through their remorseless, dogged casuistry, their endless sophistries, that only nonsense can ultimately emerge from the impersonal mechanistic paradigm, so indispensable to atheism. Muddle-headed is, as muddle-headed does.Axel
July 30, 2013
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What "FIRST PRINCIPLES" are you referring to, Axel? And I am not a "militant atheist", whatever that means. I'm an extremely reluctant one, as I think I have explained, several times. I think a lot of religion is dangerous nonsense, but then I think a lot of non-religious ideas are dangerous nonsense as well. I have no principled objection to the idea of theism.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 30, 2013
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'You are apparently oblivious to the point of the debate, which is about whether or not “moral obligation” as a concept is supported by the premise of atheism; there is no such thing as a “moral obligation” under atheism. There are moral preferences, moral feelings, moral beliefs; but, under atheism, “moral obligation” is an oxymoron. One is not obligated to act according to their preferences or feelings.' The problem with Elizabeth and the inevitability of the futility of these exchanges with her, is that she cannot think in terms of 'FIRST PRINCIPLES'. It doesn't matter if you explain them to her. Like all militant atheists/materialists/naturalists, she is totally committed to her false premises.Axel
July 30, 2013
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So, a lot more bluster from theists about why atheists are not entitled to moral principles, and have no grounds from which to derive them, and yet nobody has answered: How do you derive moral principles from theism?? I have attempted so show that the Golden Rule, which is a moral principle, emerges from our need, as social animals, to live in a peaceful productive society. People have disagreed that such a principle emerges. Fine. But not one theist so far has even attempted to show how any moral principle can be derived from theism. I'll see whether vjtorley has better luck on his thread.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 30, 2013
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Sure, at it’s most basic, seeking the well-being of others in the hope they will return the favour doesn’t have much virtue attached. Nor does seeking the well-being of others because otherwise you will experience some unpleasant “necessary consequences” in some afterlife. But hey, if it keeps you from murder and mayhem, it’s start.
The difference is that I have never attempted to define morality as altruism of any sort. Also, you seem to be under the impression that "necessary consequences" has to do with some kind of personal "unpleasantness". I never said any such thing. I said that unless there are necessary consequences attached to moral behavior, there is no reason to care about them as anything more than happenstance personal likes and dislikes. I think your conceptualization what I mean by "necessary consequences" is informed by some religious stereotype that I've already attempted to disabuse you of several times.
But at a societal level, altruism can transcend personal relationships, with benefits for all. Most people don’t do things for others in the direct expectation of getting something back, but because they value a society in which this is the norm, and because they value the well-being of others for its own sake.
Please cite evidence that will support this as something more than starry-eyed idealism convenient to your particular worldview.
And being smarter than other primates (with have narrower horizons) we help each other on the principle that the recipient will “pay it on” rather than simply “pay it back”.
Unsupported rose-colored idealism that flounders and fails in the face of human history.
Sometimes it seems to me ...
More misdirection and obfuscation, deliberate or not. You are apparently oblivious to the point of the debate, which is about whether or not "moral obligation" as a concept is supported by the premise of atheism; there is no such thing as a "moral obligation" under atheism. There are moral preferences, moral feelings, moral beliefs; but, under atheism, "moral obligation" is an oxymoron. One is not obligated to act according to their preferences or feelings.
Unlike Charles’ view of non-Christians, my view of theists is more generous than their view of themselves, it seems.
More of your trademark emotional side-tracking that has nothing to do with the argument.William J Murray
July 29, 2013
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Nothing has been “borrowed” from anyone. You’ve just said, it’s “self-evident”. Just as self-evident as any conclusion that can be agreed by independent observers, such as the sky being blue and the sea being wet.
You are incorrect about what "self-evidently true" means. It is not a "conclusion that can be agreedby independent observers". This is yet another of your obfuscating, self-serving compatibalist redefinitions. From Wiki:
In epistemology (theory of knowledge), a self-evident proposition is one that is known to be true by understanding its meaning without proof.
It is not a conclusion of argument, evidence or made valid by independent observers. It is self-evidently true, meaning that if everyone else said otherwise, it would still be self-evidently true. You are attempting to redefine all the pertinent terms - morality, objectivity, self-evident truth - in terms of "consensus" because it is convenient to your argument. There is no dictionary that agrees with you. You are stealing terms your ideology has no right to, bastardizing them with idiosyncratic, compatibalist definitions, then employing those terms in debate as if to imply the original meanings apparently to do nothing but cause confusion.William J Murray
July 29, 2013
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?So atheists and theists can agree that barbecuing babies for fun is objectively wrong.
Atheists can agree that there are 4-sided triangles. What an atheist can agree to doesn't mean that what they are agreeing to is logically justifiable under their premise. They are only entitled to concepts, ideas and values that are logically derivable from their premise. When an atheist says that some act is objectively wrong, they are either (1) stealing a concept from theism, which logically allows objective "oughts", or (2) they are using a convenient, "compatibalized" definition of "wrong" and/or "objectively", which you so often do when you redefine "objective" to mean "consensus".William J Murray
July 29, 2013
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Good. And so, I take it, you would further agree, that just as you can extrapolate from that paradigm example to a more general principle that making other people suffer for your own personal pleasure is deeply ungood, so can atheists?
You are apparently conflating "what an atheist can believe" with "what is logically justifiable under atheism". Atheists can believe they have free will and objective, self-evidently true moral principles; that has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not such beliefs are justifiable under their premise.William J Murray
July 29, 2013
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If yes, then clearly atheists are as entitled to regard this as an “objective” wrong as theists are.
Their premise offers them no such entitlement.William J Murray
July 29, 2013
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EB Liddle: 'but on good agricultural practice; that superstition is useless.' Red herring. The question is why on atheism is it objectively wrong to sacrifice children. It is not about usefulness. Machine guns are useful. 'So is it your position that all non-Christians are equally incapable of grounding their morality? Or only atheists?' Straw man. Both Christians and non-Christians are incapable of grounding objective morality. Objective moral values and duties are grounded in a transcendent being, God, His sovereignty revealed to us by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Those that accept this as the Truth are called Christians. In which case, the question is do we have good reason to believe that Christ was bodily raised? 'because we are social animals and living in a society in which we can rely on others to treat us well' Lions are social animals and they eat their young from time to time. You also conflate objective moral values, with objective moral duties, (what is right, with why we should choose what is right). This is an elementary mistake. You also slither back and forth between subjective and objective moral values and duties. At times taking the absurd position that objective morals just simply exist, in some abstract form, which is often called 'Moral Platonism', in which case not only do you face the problem that if objective morals just simply exist, such as things like 'do unto others...', then objective evils also just simply exist, such as 'torture babies for fun'. And as you try to hide behind 'Moral Platonism', (which is just 'herd morality' in a cheap tuxedo), you still cannot tell us why we OUGHT to choose 'do unto others...', rather than, 'torture babies for fun'. Or why one's 18 year old daughter should not choose a life of prostitution in the Netherlands.Charles B. Dumas
July 29, 2013
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Of course it is self-evident to anyone not willfully deluding themselves on the matter.
Good. And so, I take it, you would further agree, that just as you can extrapolate from that paradigm example to a more general principle that making other people suffer for your own personal pleasure is deeply ungood, so can atheists?
The problem is that atheism as a premise doesn’t justify the concept that anything is self-evidently wrong, because the “wrongness” of anything is entirely subjective – under atheism/naturalism.
Oh boy. William: is it, or is it not, self-evident to everyone, including atheists that torturing babies for fun is wrong? If yes, then clearly atheists are as entitled to regard this as an "objective" wrong as theists are. Nothing has been "borrowed" from anyone. You've just said, it's "self-evident". Just as self-evident as any conclusion that can be agreed by independent observers, such as the sky being blue and the sea being wet. Sure, all these are subjective impressions, but as they can be arrived at by independent subjects they can be regarded as "objective" - it's as objective as anything gets in human observation. Atheists don't deny this, or none that I know (although you said you used to, for some reason). So atheists and theists can agree that barbecuing babies for fun is objectively wrong. Theists, however, cannot agree on what God wants. Some think God wants polygamy, some that he Hates Fags, some that he wants everyone to love their neighbour as themselves, some that he wants them to destroy thousands of people working in skyscrapers in New York. So I see nothing "objective" about trying to derive a morality from theism, and far more objectivity in trying to derive a morality from what seems self-evidently true - that hurting people for personal gain is wrong, while treating people as you would like to be treated is right. It makes intuitive sense, and it also makes rational sense, because we are social animals and living in a society in which we can rely on others to treat us well, just as we can be relied on to treat others well, is something we value for perfectly rational reasons. And so it is unsurprising that it keeps cropping up as a principle from both theistic and atheistic philosophies, and can even, it turns out, be derived mathematically. Trust is valuable, and so moral principles that promote trust are widely valued.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 29, 2013
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Thanks, lpadron. I've known some fine eclairs in my time too :)Elizabeth B Liddle
July 29, 2013
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I haven't "defined something as its opposite, William". You seem incapable of seeing the difference between self-interest and seeking what you value. Sure, at it's most basic, seeking the well-being of others in the hope they will return the favour doesn't have much virtue attached. Nor does seeking the well-being of others because otherwise you will experience some unpleasant "necessary consequences" in some afterlife. But hey, if it keeps you from murder and mayhem, it's start. But at a societal level, altruism can transcend personal relationships, with benefits for all. Most people don't do things for others in the direct expectation of getting something back, but because they value a society in which this is the norm, and because they value the well-being of others for its own sake. And being smarter than other primates (with have narrower horizons) we help each other on the principle that the recipient will "pay it on" rather than simply "pay it back". Sometimes it seems to me that some theists are so locked into the idea that the only thing keeping them from theft and murder and barbecuing babies for fun is the fear of incurring God's wrath that they don't even notice that the vast majority of people (including themselves, I'm sure, at heart) wouldn't dream of doing any of these things, and were they to discover some long-lost Codex that revealed that God actually commands baby-barbecues, would immediately reject the idea as totally abhorrent, and worth risking hell to avoid. Unlike Charles' view of non-Christians, my view of theists is more generous than their view of themselves, it seems.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 29, 2013
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EL, I wish to separate just a teensy bit from those who might be taking this in a personal direction. I respect your position though I disagree with it. Also, I've nothing against eclairs. I know eclairs. Some of my best friends are eclairs. Having worked alongside them I can tell you they're some of the hardest working desserts one can hope to find.lpadron
July 29, 2013
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Good. And do you also agree with me that it is just as self-evident to an atheist that torturing children for pleasure is wrong as it is to a theist?
Of course it is self-evident to anyone not willfully deluding themselves on the matter. The problem is that atheism as a premise doesn't justify the concept that anything is self-evidently wrong, because the "wrongness" of anything is entirely subjective - under atheism/naturalism.William J Murray
July 29, 2013
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Jerry:
You got to be kidding.
No, I'm not. Many atrocities have been committed on the principle that they were necessary to appease an angry god.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 29, 2013
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Charles B Dumas, strong words. But the question is not where a theist grounds his morality, but how she derives it. So please, tell me, how do you decide what is moral and what isn't? And I totally agree with Lizzie - theists have stolen their morality from naturalism. So rather than the overwrought emotion, a simple thank you would be nice.5for
July 29, 2013
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"reciprocal altruism" Wiki:
Altruism or selflessness is the principle or practice of concern for the welfare of others.
Wiki:
In evolutionary biology, reciprocal altruism is a behaviour whereby an organism acts in a manner that temporarily reduces its fitness while increasing another organism's fitness, with the expectation that the other organism will act in a similar manner at a later time.
Oxymoron. Altruism with the expectation of reciprocity is not altruism. Leave it to evolutionists to - once again - make self-defeating, self refuting arguments by redefining something as its opposite, for the sake of a new lexicon "compatible" with their self-deceit.William J Murray
July 29, 2013
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