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Stolen Obligations: Why do atheists care about truth, reason or morality?

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Truth, rationality, and morality under naturalism, are irrelevant commodities, in and of themselves. The naturalist’s (atheistic materialist’s) concern with truth, reason and morality are stolen obligations – obligations that are not derivable from naturalism.

If minds are the computed product of physics, they output whatever they output.  There is no ideal form, perfection, or “truth” outside of what physics produces in any particular instance to compare what physics produces against.  Whatever any individual computation of physics outputs with the label “rational” attached is the natural limit of what can be termed “rational”.  There’s nothing the individual can compare it against; they are stuck with their own ruler and no means by which to check its length.  What is considered “true” can be both X and not-X.

Similarly, morality is just whatever physics says it is.  Like a computer programmed to output “3” when asked “what is 1 + 1”, the computer is not in error, it is simply producing the output determined by its program.  “3” is only an “error” if one assumes there is some standard outside of that program by which to judge it; under naturalism, there is not. If the physics ends up in some case saying it is moral to behead infidels, then it is moral in that case; if in some other case it says it is immoral to do so, then it is immoral in that case.  Under naturalism, what is moral can be both X and not-X; there is no absolute arbiter.

Under naturalism, truth, reason and morality are all relative, subjective commodities (being entirely mental phenomena), housed in a mind produced by forces unconcerned with truth, reason and morality, generated by a process only “concerned” with reproductive success.  At the very core, mind cannot be said to have anything whatsoever to do with reason, truth or morality; those are just titles we assign to various output as our particular individual physics commands as those physics pursue reproductive success.

Which brings up the question: why do atheists, materialists and naturalists care whether or not their arguments are rational? Why do they care if what others say is untrue?  Why are they concerned with appearing to be “moral” or to have moral cares and considerations? Why bother with any of that at all, considering that the basis of their existence is not assumed to be about any of those things, nor is their any intrinsic reason to care about them under their paradigm?

If life is fundamentally about reproductive success, what’s the point of caring about truth, reason or morality, per se?  I find it odd that under a paradigm where those things have no intrinsic or ultimate value in and of themselves, many atheists go to great lengths to demonstrate they are more moral, more rational, and more truthful than theists. Why? Who cares? Are there points being scored somewhere for being moral, truthful, or rational?

No, under atheism/materialism/naturalism, the only points being scored are for producing children, and statistics show that atheists produce less children than theists (something they are often proud of, strangely enough).  However, they don’t seem to have read the memo.  They still argue and act as if they have some kind of binding, necessary obligation to truth, reason, and morality.

Comments
5for, you don't seem to appreciate the exponentially worse problem that altruistic behavior presents for Darwinism than it does for Theism (If altruism can be said to present any problem for Theism in the first place). ,, Why the hypocritical bias in how you judge between the worldviews? Matthew 7:5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.bornagain77
July 28, 2013
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5for, and Darwinism explains altruistic behavior how?bornagain77
July 28, 2013
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WJM@15: That's not the point I was making. The point is, if theism is true why do non-human animals have moral codes?5for
July 28, 2013
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Why do bonobos (for example)demonstrate altruistic behaviour and other behaviours that seem to have a moral basis? Many such behaviours have been documented including; using wood pulp to make sick animals comfortable; foregoing food to enable older or less able members of a group to eat; exhibiting grief at the death of group members. Presumably these animals do not have a belief in god and final causes yet they care about each other sometimes to the the detriment of their own needs?
Under naturalism, why should I consider altruism to be "moral" in the first place? You argument assumes a standard (altruism) that doesn't exist beyond your subjective belief that altrusm is moral.William J Murray
July 28, 2013
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5for, and Darwinism explains altruistic behavior how? Richard Dawkins interview with a 'Darwinian' physician goes off track - video Excerpt: "I am amazed, Richard, that what we call metazoans, multi-celled organisms, have actually been able to evolve, and the reason [for amazement] is that bacteria and viruses replicate so quickly -- a few hours sometimes, they can reproduce themselves -- that they can evolve very, very quickly. And we're stuck with twenty years at least between generations. How is it that we resist infection when they can evolve so quickly to find ways around our defenses?" http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/07/video_to_dawkin062031.html i.e. Since successful reproduction is all that really matters on a neo-Darwinian view of things, how can anything but successful reproduction be realistically 'selected' for? Any other function besides reproduction, such as sight, hearing, thinking, altruism etc.., would be highly superfluous to the primary criteria of successfully reproducing, and should, on a Darwinian view, be discarded as so much excess baggage since it would slow down successful reproduction. Indeed, instead of eating us, time after time these different types of microbial life are found to be helping us in essential ways that have nothing to do with their ability to successfully reproduce,,, Of related note: ABC News - The Science Behind the Healing Power of Love - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6t1p-PwGgE4 Social isolation and its health implications January 2012 Excerpt: Studies show that social isolation and/or loneliness predict morbidity and mortality from cancer, cardiovascular disease, and a host of other diseases. In fact, the body perceives loneliness as a threat. Research from the University of California suggests that loneliness or lack of social support could triple the odds of being diagnosed with a heart condition. Redford Williams and his colleagues at Duke University directed a study in 1992 on heart patients and their relationships. They discovered that 50% of patients with heart disease who did not have a spouse or someone to confide in died within five years, while only 17% of those who did have a confidante died in the same time period.12 http://www.how-to-be-healthy.org/social-isolation-and-its-health-implications/ Moreover the positive effect of a caring attitude is found to work both ways, in that not only does the person receiving loving care from another person heal more quickly, but it is also found that people of a happy, charitable, loving, nature also receive the tangible benefits of a longer and healthier life in return: Study finds it actually is better (and healthier) to give than to receive – February 4, 2013 Excerpt: A five-year study by researchers at three universities has established that providing tangible assistance to others protects our health and lengthens our lives. http://medicalxpress.com/news/2013-02-healthier.html Perhaps this tangible effect of love on health goes a long way towards explaining why women, who are generally more loving and caring than men are, live on average five to 10 years longer than men do. Of course from a Theistic perspective this tangible effect of love is to be expected, whereas from a materialistic perspective, well to put it mildly, from a materialistic perspective of survival of the fittest, dog eat dog, it is very counter intuitive: Verse and music: 1 Corinthians 13:1-8 If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal. And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing. Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, [love] is not pompous, it is not inflated, it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury, it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails.,,, For King & Country "The Proof Of Your Love" - Live Music http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pr9YVD05x8Mbornagain77
July 28, 2013
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Why do bonobos (for example)demonstrate altruistic behaviour and other behaviours that seem to have a moral basis? Many such behaviours have been documented including; using wood pulp to make sick animals comfortable; foregoing food to enable older or less able members of a group to eat; exhibiting grief at the death of group members. Presumably these animals do not have a belief in god and final causes yet they care about each other sometimes to the the detriment of their own needs?5for
July 28, 2013
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How are the obligations derived from your worldview?
From the premise of final cause and means provided by god to deliberately serve that final cause.
But what ruler are you using that materialists don’t have?
I didn't say materialists don't have it; I said that under materialism, no such absolute ruler is premised to exist, which makes their sense of obligation to truth nonsensical.William J Murray
July 28, 2013
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Hayek is one of my heros. He was a socialist till Mises explained how prices work and how socialism destroys the price system. So Hayek became a champion of the free market. Keynes has been discredited as well as the consumption theory of economics on which his ideas were based. James Buchanan completely destroyed the concept of government investment with his Public Choice Theory. Government officials are more corrupt than any private individuals so it is best to limit the money government has access to. Growth is the result of investment and that is best done by non-goverment entities who have an economic stake in the success of investment. Now these are completely irrelevant things to say for this thread. So there should not be a reply from anyone even though I am sure a lot of people have strong opinions. Maybe we can discuss economics on some other thread but it hard to see how it fits in with UD. But such provocative commens show how thoughts can go astray.jerry
July 28, 2013
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Axel, I decided, let's have this thread not go down the well worn paths Jerry highlighted at 4. I looked up Hayek's P & P to see Hayek's side of the story, from the Austrian view: __________ http://mises.org/books/hayekcollection.pdf Preface 2nd edn: >> This book owes its existence to an invitation by the Univer-sity of London to deliver during the session 1930–31 four lectures to advanced students in economics, and in the form in which it was first published it literally reproduced these lec-tures. This invitation offered to me what might easily have been a unique opportunity to lay before an English audience what contribution I thought I had then to make to current discus-sions of theoretical economics; and it came at a time when I had arrived at a clear view of the outlines of a theory of indus- trial fluctuations but before I had elaborated it in full detail or even realized all the difficulties which such an elaboration pre-sented. The exposition, moreover, was limited to what I could say in four lectures, which inevitably led to even greater over-simplification than I would probably have been guilty of in any other case. But although I am now conscious of many more defects of this exposition than I was even at the time of its first publication, I can only feel profoundly grateful to the circum-stances which were such an irresistible temptation to publish these ideas at an earlier date than I should otherwise have done. From the criticisms and discussions that publication has caused I hope to have profited more for a later more complete exposi-tion than I could possibly have done if I had simply continued to work on these problems for myself. But the time for that more exhaustive treatment of these problems has not yet come. It is perhaps the main gain which I derived from the early pub-lication that it made it clear to me that, before I could hope to get much further with the elucidation of the main problems discussed in this book, it would be necessary considerably to elaborate the foundations on which I have tried to build. Con-tact with scientific circles which were less inclined than I was to take for granted the main propositions of the “Austrian” the-ory of capital on which I have drawn so freely in this book has shown—not that these propositions were wrong or that they were less important than I had thought for the task for which I had used them—but that they would have to be developed in far greater detail and have to be adapted much more closely to the complicated conditions of real life before they could pro-vide a completely satisfactory instrument for the explanation of the particularly complicated phenomena to which I have applied them. This is a task which has to be undertaken before the theses expounded in the present book can be developed fur-ther with advantage. Under these circumstances, when a new edition of this book was called for, I felt neither prepared to rewrite and enlarge it to the extent that a completely adequate treatment of the problems taken up would make necessary, nor to see it reappear in an alto-gether unchanged form. The compression of the original exposi-tion has given rise to so many unnecessary misunderstandings which a somewhat fuller treatment would have prevented that certain additions seemed urgently necessary. I have accordingly chosen the middle course of inserting into the (on the whole unchanged) original text further elucidations and elaborations where they seemed most necessary. Many of these additions were already included in the German edition which appeared a few months after the first English edition. Others are taken over from a number of articles in which, in the course of the last three years, I have tried to develop or to defend the main thesis of this book . . . . Considerations of time made it necessary for me in these lectures to treat at one and the same time the real changes of the structure of production which accompany changes in the amount of capital and the monetary mechanism which brings this change about. This was possible only under highly simplified assumptions which made any change in the monetary demand for capital goods proportional to the change in the total demand for capital goods which it brought about. Now “demand” for capital goods, in the sense in which it can be said that demand determines their value, of course does not consist exclusively or even primarily in a demand exercised on any market, but to a perhaps even greater degree in a demand or will-ingness to continue to hold capital goods for a further period of time. On the relationship between this total demand and the monetary demand for capital goods which manifests itself on the markets during any period of time, no general statements can be made; nor is it particularly relevant for my problems what this quantitative relationship actually is. What was, however, of prime importance for my purpose was to emphasize that any change in the monetary demand for capital goods could not be treated as something which made itself felt only on some isolated market for new capital goods, but that it could be only understood as a change affecting the general demand for capital goods which is an essential aspect of the process of maintaining a given structure of production. The simplest assumption of this kind which I could make was to assume a fixed relationship between the monetary and the total demand for capital goods so as to make the amount of money spent on capital goods during a unit period of time equal to the value of the stock of capital goods in existence.>> ___________ Now, Hayek was one of the most brilliant and original thinkers on economics, from one of the key alternative schools of thought that has had significant things to say to the mainstream over these past 50 - 80 years. So, it is fascinating to see how there was an obvious firestorm of criticism, and to observe the key point in reply: there is such a thing as responsible length of exposition and explanation going back to foundations which becomes all the more important when materially divergent schools of thought intersect. Failing of patience to examine such a responsible exposition and associated dialogue on foundational matters, little gaps in the beginning are liable to lead to massive misunderstandings in the end. Multiply that by the sadly familiar devices of ruthless manipulatore: red herrings led away to strawman caricatures soaked in ad hominems and set alight to distract, cliud, confuse, polarise and poison the atmosphere and things can get way out of hand. Here, in the case of ID and UD, we are now back to first principles of right reason, worldviews, ethics and policy influenced by such. I find it sad that there is a patent unwillingness to accept that the reality of distinct things leads to a world partition and immediately, LOI, LNC, LEM. Likewise, that PSR is foundational, asking if A is, why so? (From which contingency and necessity of being arise and thus also causality.) I find it of sobering concern that foundations of mind, responsible freedom of choice and thus morality also, are being ideologically undermined by materialism dressed up in a lab coat and demanding genuflection. I think we need to pause, look at where we are plainly headed as a civilisation and soberly ask ourselves if we really, genuinely want to go there. $0.02 KFkairosfocus
July 28, 2013
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For an atheist to try to maintain that truth, reason, morality, value, meaning, and purpose, can be grounded in the atheistic/materialistic worldview is to blatantly deny common sense (Haldane, CS Lewis, Plantinga) as well as to deny what many leading atheistic leaders themselves have said about what atheism entails (Dawkins, Rosenberg, Singer) as well as to deny the horrific history of atheistic/totalitarian regimes (Weikart, Berlinski), But what does the Christian Theists have to offer to counter such claims as,
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference. Richard Dawkins
What can the Theists offer to show that the universe, at bottom, does care. I would offer that one powerful piece of evidence is here:
The first full-sky image (Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation - CMBR) from Europe's Planck telescope - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5BeGg4xWVM The Known Universe by AMNH – video - (please note the 'centrality' of the Earth in the universe in the video) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17jymDn0W6U
Once when I pointed out the 'surprising' centrality of the earth in the universe an atheist retorted 'So what! Every place is central in the universe!'. But that 'So what!' attitude (an attitude which you'd expect from a person who believes he has no intrinsic worth) misses two important points. One thing that that 'So what!' attitude misses is that materialism did not predict that any position in the universe would be central. In fact materialism predicted that the material universe was infinite in size and duration! The other thing that that 'So what!' attitude misses is that it turns out in order to explain how every position in the universe can possibly have a central position within the universe one is forced to appeal to a higher dimension. In fact, 'higher dimensional' mathematics had to be developed before Einstein could elucidate General Relativity, or even before Quantum Mechanics could be elucidated;
The Mathematics Of Higher Dimensionality – Gauss and Riemann – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/6199520/
Moreover, if one digs deeper, one finds that it is impossible for the 4-Dimensional space-time of General Relativity to give a complete description as to why we observe centrality for ourselves within the universe, but that a 'quantum explanation' must be brought in in order to offer a complete explanation as to why we 'consciously observe' centrality for ourselves within the universe. The implications of all higher dimensional stuff this is fairly obvious:
The Galileo Affair and the true "Center of the Universe" Excerpt: I find it extremely interesting, and strange, that quantum mechanics tells us that instantaneous quantum wave collapse to its 'uncertain' 3D state is centered on each individual conscious observer in the universe, whereas, 4D space-time cosmology (General Relativity) tells us each 3D point in the universe is central to the expansion of the universe. These findings of modern science are pretty much exactly what we would expect to see if this universe were indeed created, and sustained, from a higher dimension by a omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal Being who knows everything that is happening everywhere in the universe at the same time. These findings certainly seem to go to the very heart of the age old question asked of many parents by their children, “How can God hear everybody’s prayers at the same time?”,,, i.e. Why should the expansion of the universe, or the quantum wave collapse of the entire universe, even care that you or I, or anyone else, should exist? Only Theism, Christian Theism in particular, offers a rational explanation as to why you or I, or anyone else, should have such undeserved significance in such a vast universe. [15] Psalm 33:13-15 The LORD looks from heaven; He sees all the sons of men. From the place of His dwelling He looks on all the inhabitants of the earth; He fashions their hearts individually; He considers all their works. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BHAcvrc913SgnPcDohwkPnN4kMJ9EDX-JJSkjc4AXmA/edit
Of note: Objective morality can be derived from the 'perfect Being' argument:
God Is Not Dead Yet – William Lane Craig – Page 4 The ontological argument. Anselm’s famous argument has been reformulated and defended by Alvin Plantinga, Robert Maydole, Brian Leftow, and others. God, Anselm observes, is by definition the greatest being conceivable. If you could conceive of anything greater than God, then that would be God. Thus, God is the greatest conceivable being, a maximally great being. So what would such a being be like? He would be all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good, and he would exist in every logically possible world. But then we can argue: 1. It is possible that a maximally great being (God) exists. 2. If it is possible that a maximally great being exists, then a maximally great being exists in some possible world. 3. If a maximally great being exists in some possible world, then it exists in every possible world. 4. If a maximally great being exists in every possible world, then it exists in the actual world. 5. Therefore, a maximally great being exists in the actual world. 6. Therefore, a maximally great being exists. 7. Therefore, God exists. Now it might be a surprise to learn that steps 2–7 of this argument are relatively uncontroversial. Most philosophers would agree that if God’s existence is even possible, then he must exist. So the whole question is: Is God’s existence possible? The atheist has to maintain that it’s impossible that God exists. He has to say that the concept of God is incoherent, like the concept of a married bachelor or a round square. But the problem is that the concept of God just doesn’t appear to be incoherent in that way. The idea of a being which is all-powerful, all knowing, and all-good in every possible world seems perfectly coherent. And so long as God’s existence is even possible, it follows that God must exist. per - Christianity Today Ontological Argument For God From The Many Worlds Hypothesis - William Lane Craig - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4784641
And as weird as it may sound, this following video refines the Ontological argument into a proof that, because of the characteristic of ‘maximally great love’, God must exist in more than one person:
The Ontological Argument for the Triune God - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGVYXog8NUg
It is also interesting to note, in conjunction with the 'perfect Being' argument, that the necessity of Christ's propitiation on our behalf (atonement for sin), so that we may dwell in the presence of God, becomes self evidence:
G.O.S.P.E.L. – (the grace of propitiation) poetry slam – video https://vimeo.com/20960385
In relation to all this it is interesting to note that within the life review portion of Near Death Experiences, that every minute detail of a person's life is gone over, in the presence of God, and every action is morally judged as to how it measures up to the perfect standard of God's perfect, infinite, love.
Near Death Experience – The Tunnel, The Light, The Life Review – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4200200/
Verse:
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
bornagain77
July 28, 2013
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Truth, rationality, and morality under naturalism, are irrelevant commodities, in and of themselves. The naturalist’s (atheistic materialist’s) concern with truth, reason and morality are stolen obligations – obligations that are not derivable from naturalism.
How are the obligations derived from your worldview?
they are stuck with their own ruler and no means by which to check its length.
But what ruler are you using that materialists don't have? If you're just assuming that there's this other ruler out there, then that's the opposite of caring what is true. Assuming a ruler, and assuming its dimensions, and then comparing things to that ruler, is not "caring about what's true." I don't think God is why you care about morality. Morality exists because we care about it, and there are many different theories as to why we care about it, God being one of them.goodusername
July 28, 2013
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It all hinges on the word, '(if one) understands', doesn't it?' To my mind, it takes a degree of serious mental impairment to use as one's premise, Unintelligent Design (or however you may wish to describe the alternative(s) to ID), and then construct an enormous, erudite, highly technical edifice thereupon. In short, to 'understand' what is intrinsically nonsense would seem to require a corresponding want of sense. Shades of J M Keynes' response to a book written by Hayek, based on false assumptions: 'The book, as it stands, seems to me to be one of the most frightful muddles I have ever read, with scarcely a sound proposition in it beginning with page 45 [Hayek provided historical background up to page 45; after that came his theoretical model], and yet it remains a book of some interest, which is likely to leave its mark on the mind of the reader. It is an extraordinary example of how, starting with a mistake, a remorseless logician can end up in bedlam. On Friedrich Hayek's Prices and Production, in Collected Writings, vol. XII, p. 252' - from Wikiquotes. I do a similar thing myself a good deal of the time, albeit in a much less erudite vein than your good self, and not in terms of a deficiency in my premises, but by writing long screeds for posting to forums, which I remind myself, even as I'm writing, have 'mine and Buckley's chance' of being accepted by the moderators. But I plough on. I salute you, Sir, as one of the more inspired materialist 'nutters'. I am on the side of truth, and you, folly, but clearly 'folly' in one form or another, nevertheless, knows no borders.Axel
July 28, 2013
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nightlight: the ethics resulting from following the “exceptional path” (to immortality) is behaviorally indistinguishable from the most “saintly path” of any religion.
Is there some path I can follow today that will give me immortality? If so, sign me up. Otherwise, why should I not "eat, drink and be merry, and do whatever the hell else I want, even kill you, if it makes me happy, for tomorrow we die" ?CentralScrutinizer
July 28, 2013
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Obviously not, since “naturalism” is a belief.
It conflates them by shifting the boundary between general 'belief' and 'belief in god', by narrowing down the former to some sterile, mechanistic caricature, a strawman, labeled 'naturalism', leaving the rest as 'god domain'.
One can believe it is important to tell the truth and be an atheist/naturalist; the question is that given atheism/naturalism, why should they?
Disregarding the caricature labeling, if one understands the laws of universe as manifestation of intelligent (computational) harmonization process of particular kind (explained in earlier thread), the ethics resulting from following the "exceptional path" (to immortality) is behaviorally indistinguishable from the most "saintly path" of any religion.nightlight
July 28, 2013
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I have a lot of pet theories or pet observations. One of them is that the most interesting thing about the evolution debate is the behavior of the individuals engaged in it. I often have made the concurrent observation that I have never found an honest Darwinist or pro naturalistic evolution person in this debate except one. The anti-ID people are certainly not interested in truth. They are certainly not willing to admit that those they disagree with them have a rational argument except for some peripheral issues that has nothing to do with the basic discussion. Then to show how rational and agreeable they are will bend over backwards to agree with you. If you make an embarrassing point to their argument, they will not acknowledge it. But in a sense they do by their very direct non-reply. I find them rational in the sense that is easy to see their minds at work. They immediately seek to find some shortcoming in one's argument as opposed to dealing with the over all strength of one's point. They are clever at distractions, diversions, using words in senses other than meant for the debate (witness the times they disrupt a discussion by misrepresenting what the terms intelligence, information, macro-evolution, life etc. mean.) I often wonder what drives them. Why are they here making such absurd arguments? They cannot possibly believe them. What do they hope to accomplish? Of course if they are right and everything is determined, they cannot help themselves. In fact there is no self to really help.jerry
July 28, 2013
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The article conflates non-belief in god with non-belief in anything.
Obviously not, since "naturalism" is a belief. One can believe it is important to tell the truth and be an atheist/naturalist; the question is that given atheism/naturalism, why should they?William J Murray
July 28, 2013
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The article conflates non-belief in god with non-belief in anything. Belief in laws of nature can be, depending on postulated laws, behaviorally indistinguishable from any ethical system. Any scientific system postulates set of laws from which it deduces (constructs, weaves) the rest of phenomena, hence belief is a more general concept than god. Conflating the two is an attempt to co-opt the concept of general 'belief' into service of religious priesthoods. Keep also in mind the "laws of nature" need not be what the current science postulates, just as the present science is quite different to what ancients thought it to be. The current science is fundamentally inadequate since, among others, it lacks a model for the most elemental fact of existence, the "mind stuff". As with religious priesthoods hijacking the spiritual aspects of existence, the science has attracted its own parasitic layer, the 'scientific priesthoods' (self-serving, mutual back-patting societies). The latter is evident in any field one becomes familiar with.nightlight
July 28, 2013
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WJM: Always good to see you posting. Sobering issue. Grounding on a worldview basis. Some of course try to suggest worldviews are all equally groundless so shrug and walk away. Not so, hence the significance of self evident first truths and first principles of right reason, as a cornerstone to a worldview foundation that per comparative difficulties, coherence and anchor-points and lines, is finite [no infinite regresses] with coherence and superior explanatory scope, power and elegance multiplied by a due recognition and distinction of what is self evident and certain from what is plausible and empirically reliable but provisional, that avoids circularity, also. KFkairosfocus
July 28, 2013
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