Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Stunning Levels of Ignorance Regarding the Genetic Code

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

ID critic Ed George was asked the following question: “Are you suggesting that the genetic code works through a series of chemical reactions?”

His response: “Duh!”

When asked to elucidate, he wrote the following comment:

DNA is a chemical (deoxyribonucleic acid). It interacts with other chemicals (e.g., transcriptase) to form yet other chemicals (e.g., RNA) that reacts with other chemicals (e.g., amino acids) to form other chemicals (e.g., proteins). This is admittedly overly simplified, but there is nowhere in this process that does not involve chemical reactions.

It is astonishing that someone who purports to be able to describe how DNA works (even on a simplified basis) would display such ignorance. Every educated person — theist, atheist, materialist, monist, dualist, etc. — knows that at a fundamental level DNA is about information. It is called the genetic code for a reason. Consider the very first line of the Wiki entry:

The genetic code is the set of rules used by living  cells to translate information encoded within genetic material (DNA or mRNA sequences of nucleotide triplets, or codons) into proteins.

This is not the least bit controversial, as evidenced by the fact that Wiki did not censor it as it censors anything with the slightest whiff of pro-ID slant. Yet here is EG coming into these pages and pronouncing it is all accomplished through “chemical reactions.” Graphite is a chemical. Carbon is a chemical. Ed seems to believe that a sentence written in pencil on a piece of paper can be accounted for completely by the interaction of the graphite and carbon.

Stunning. Only a person blinded by materialist dogma would express these views.

Comments
I will do color commentary: Ortho shows me he's no coward and takes up the gauntlet. The essence of his argument:
the tRNA-ligases are teh genetic code (the thing that associates codons to amnio acides via tRNAs and codons), and they do that work through chemistry.
UB's riposte:
Ortho, is the codon-to-anticodon association spatially and temporally independent of the anticodon-to-amino acid association?
Barry Arrington
May 5, 2020
May
05
May
5
05
2020
03:26 PM
3
03
26
PM
PDT
I don't realyl know what you are getting at Upright, do you want to spell it out instead?orthomyxo
May 5, 2020
May
05
May
5
05
2020
03:24 PM
3
03
24
PM
PDT
UB, that is the pivotal point, underscored by how AA attachment is to a STANDARD CCA tip. KFkairosfocus
May 5, 2020
May
05
May
5
05
2020
03:21 PM
3
03
21
PM
PDT
. Ortho, is the codon-to-anticodon association spatially and temporally independent of the anticodon-to-amino acid association?Upright BiPed
May 5, 2020
May
05
May
5
05
2020
03:19 PM
3
03
19
PM
PDT
I will need a new code to decypher anything of meaning from KF's post, I'm afraid!orthomyxo
May 5, 2020
May
05
May
5
05
2020
03:17 PM
3
03
17
PM
PDT
Well, I'm not actualyl here to teach you highschool biology. But binding of codons to anti codons and the action of RNApol is all well-documented in many places. Upright BiPed's comment gets us one layer deeper into the chemical reactions. The tRNA-ligases (also called aminoacyl-tRNA synthetase or aaRS) are the enzymes that link amino acids to a specific tRNA, but that's chemistry too. There is one ligase for each tRNA (in vertebrates at least) and each bonds to a specific amino acid and specific loops in the appropriate tRNA. In a way, the tRNA-ligases are teh genetic code (the thing that associates codons to amnio acides via tRNAs and codons), and they do that work through chemistry.orthomyxo
May 5, 2020
May
05
May
5
05
2020
03:16 PM
3
03
16
PM
PDT
. I think that Barry and Ed and Ortho are talking past each other, as sometime happens. When Barry uses the word "works" in his question (I believe) he is talking about the system result. When Ed sees the word "works" he takes the shortest route to the door. The truth is that it does not matter how the question is posed, the materialists on this blog will avoid the issue at every turn. Ed has certainly proven that, so has Sev, so has JVL, and the list goes on and on. Judging by the complete pass on my comment above in #8, we can likely add Ortho to that list. Who knows....Upright BiPed
May 5, 2020
May
05
May
5
05
2020
03:10 PM
3
03
10
PM
PDT
F/N The AA attachment to a tRNA is on a standard CCA tool tip, i.e. it is not determined by the anticodon on the other end. The AA is loaded based on a protocol carried out through loading processes. Indeed, the natural genetic code has been artificially extended by different loading protocols. KFkairosfocus
May 5, 2020
May
05
May
5
05
2020
03:07 PM
3
03
07
PM
PDT
Thanks KF. Ortho, please follow KF's link and come back and tell us how all of that is a process that "works through a series of chemical reactions." Or you can explain it to KF on his thread. Doesn't matter. Still have lots of popcorn to go through.Barry Arrington
May 5, 2020
May
05
May
5
05
2020
03:06 PM
3
03
06
PM
PDT
My comment https://uncommondescent.com/design-inference/a-note-on-layer-cake-communication-systems-and-protocols/kairosfocus
May 5, 2020
May
05
May
5
05
2020
03:01 PM
3
03
01
PM
PDT
BTW Ortho, everyone noticed that you ignored Upright Biped's comment at 8. Smart move on your point. You are totally outclassed. Smart, but kinda cowardly too. Life is full of tradeoffs.Barry Arrington
May 5, 2020
May
05
May
5
05
2020
02:51 PM
2
02
51
PM
PDT
Ortho
That process works through a series of chemical reactions.
You keep asserting that. Here's a tip: An assertion is not a description or an explanation. Now I assume you are prepared to demonstrate how the "process works through a series of chemical reactions." So by all means do so. Explain how the process can be accounted for solely by reference to chemical reactions. I'm ready, eager even, for what you are going to say next. Prediction: Literature bluff.Barry Arrington
May 5, 2020
May
05
May
5
05
2020
02:48 PM
2
02
48
PM
PDT
Barry, Can I remind you that this thread started from you being incredulous thusly “Are you suggesting that the genetic code works through a series of chemical reactions?” The genetic code is, as your wiki link (which seems like a reasonable high-level explanation) describes, the means by which DNA bases are translated in proteins (via an mRNA intermediate). That process works through a series of chemical reactions. the production of mRNA is catalysed by RNA polymerase, the codons in the mRNA are translated into proteins via tRNAs that are complementary to the mRNA and the protein of a peptide is cayalued by RNAs. That's how the genetic code works, and it's a series of chemical reactions. Then you ask a question like this
Can the information in the genetic code by reduced to the chemical properties of the phosphates, sugars, and nitrogen of which the DNA molecule is made?
DNA is not the genetic code, so that's a very odd question. You seem to be mixing technical and lay definitions of words like translate, code and information in a way that is very hard to extract any (ahem) information from.orthomyxo
May 5, 2020
May
05
May
5
05
2020
02:39 PM
2
02
39
PM
PDT
Ed, I know you say your statement needs no defense. But for the sake of us dimwitted ID folks, why don't you explain how the information in DNA can be accounted for by reference to chemical reactions among the phosphates, sugars, and nitrogen atoms of which the DNA molecule is made. I am sincerely curious about how you would support that position (other than by suggesting it is self-evidently true of course).Barry Arrington
May 5, 2020
May
05
May
5
05
2020
02:33 PM
2
02
33
PM
PDT
UB at 13. I hope I didn't scare him off. I just went for popcorn to munch while I watch you two cross swords.Barry Arrington
May 5, 2020
May
05
May
5
05
2020
02:30 PM
2
02
30
PM
PDT
Ed George
Since my defence needs no argument . . .
Are you saying the truth of the statement is self-evident, that like the sentence "one plus one equals two" acceptance of the truth of your statement is compelled merely by understanding the meaning of the words employed? Wow. You have said some really stupid things over the years, but that takes it to a whole new level. Oh and before I part I notice that you have added a couple of ad hominems to the mix. Nice going!Barry Arrington
May 5, 2020
May
05
May
5
05
2020
02:26 PM
2
02
26
PM
PDT
. Ortho, Barry is obviously having a bit of fun with you in #11. I am no expert, but I do read a bit.Upright BiPed
May 5, 2020
May
05
May
5
05
2020
02:11 PM
2
02
11
PM
PDT
BA
A sneer is not the same as a defense of your augment Ed.
Since my defence needs no argument, I don’t know what else to give you. Pity? A referral to a mental health expert?Ed George
May 5, 2020
May
05
May
5
05
2020
02:10 PM
2
02
10
PM
PDT
Uh oh Orthomyxo, Upright Biped is on the case. You might as was well come out with your hands up now. It will be less humiliating for you that way.Barry Arrington
May 5, 2020
May
05
May
5
05
2020
02:05 PM
2
02
05
PM
PDT
Ed George
I must say, Barry never disappoints.
A sneer is not the same as a defense of your augment Ed. You should write that down and refer to it from time to time, because you don't seem to understand it.Barry Arrington
May 5, 2020
May
05
May
5
05
2020
02:03 PM
2
02
03
PM
PDT
Ortho
It’s up to you to decide if the information in DNA is from selection or authorship.
Not even remotely the point. That the information exists is the point. I am glad you are willing to make that tiny concession (and thus align yourself with every living biologist). How the information came to be is a different matter.
But it’s absolutely the case that the next amino acid in a developing protein is determined by chemistry.
You still have not answered the question about whether you agree with Wiki's description that I quoted above. I doubt you will. Because if you ever do you will be forced to admit that he next amino acid in a developing protein is determined by the information specified in the genetic code.
That’s how the genetic code works.
Said the man who seems to think that "chemistry" is a synonym for "information." This is all the more astonishing given that you have already admitted that the information exists. Let me ask you this Ortho: Can the information in a book be reduced to the chemical properties of the paper and ink? Can the information in the genetic code by reduced to the chemical properties of the phosphates, sugars, and nitrogen of which the DNA molecule is made?Barry Arrington
May 5, 2020
May
05
May
5
05
2020
02:00 PM
2
02
00
PM
PDT
.
it’s absolutely the case that the next amino acid in a developing protein is determined by chemistry. That’s how the genetic code works.
Neither the physical properties of the DNA or RNA triplet establish which amino acid is presented for binding in the ribosome. That is established independently (spatially and temporally) by the physical properties of the aaRS. This means the system is not reducible to dynamics, but to a specific type of organization, and further, to simultaneous coordination within that organization.Upright BiPed
May 5, 2020
May
05
May
5
05
2020
02:00 PM
2
02
00
PM
PDT
It's up to you to decide if the information in DNA is from selection or authorship. But it's absolutely the case that the next amino acid in a developing protein is determined by chemistry. That's how the genetic code works.orthomyxo
May 5, 2020
May
05
May
5
05
2020
01:47 PM
1
01
47
PM
PDT
I must say, Barry never disappoints. :)Ed George
May 5, 2020
May
05
May
5
05
2020
01:42 PM
1
01
42
PM
PDT
And you seem to be missing the meaning of the word "translation" period full stop. The Wiki articles goes on:
Translation is accomplished by the ribosome, which links amino acids in an order specified by messenger RNA (mRNA), using transfer RNA (tRNA) molecules to carry amino acids and to read the mRNA three nucleotides at a time. . . .The code defines how codons specify which amino acid will be added next during protein synthesis. With some exceptions, a three-nucleotide codon in a nucleic acid sequence specifies a single amino acid. The vast majority of genes are encoded with a single scheme (see the RNA codon table). That scheme is often referred to as the canonical or standard genetic code, or simply the genetic code, though variant codes (such as in human mitochondria) exist.
I assume you do not have an idiosyncratic understanding of the genetic code and thus agree with this general description. No one (except perhaps you and Ed George) believes that the information embedded in DNA, or the system by which that information is accessed and used to specify the amino acid that will be added next during protein synthesis can be reduced to the properties of the chemicals involved. It is astonishing that you would pretend otherwise. Though, given the way you like to play fast and loose with the facts, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.Barry Arrington
May 5, 2020
May
05
May
5
05
2020
01:37 PM
1
01
37
PM
PDT
Again, I think you might be missing the meaning of translation in molecular biology. Translation is tRNAs binding to complementary nucleotides so rRNA can catalyse the formation of peptide bonds.orthomyxo
May 5, 2020
May
05
May
5
05
2020
01:27 PM
1
01
27
PM
PDT
Orthomyxo, You seem to be suggesting that the transcription and translation process can be reduced to the properties of the chemicals involved. Stunning. You seem to have no conception of what the word "translation" means. From your comment, I assume you think that "translation" is a chemical reaction. I am gobsmacked.Barry Arrington
May 5, 2020
May
05
May
5
05
2020
01:17 PM
1
01
17
PM
PDT
DNA is a chemical (deoxyribonucleic acid). It interacts with other chemicals (e.g., transcriptase) to form yet other chemicals (e.g., RNA) that reacts with other chemicals (e.g., amino acids) to form other chemicals (e.g., proteins). This is admittedly overly simplified, but there is nowhere in this process that does not involve chemical reactions.
Well described; like someone who can draw a flowchart without any skill or knowledge of how to write the code for the functionality that the boxes in the chart represent. Ed George must be a salesman, a consultant, a professor or a politician.awstar
May 5, 2020
May
05
May
5
05
2020
01:10 PM
1
01
10
PM
PDT
I mean... transcription and translation are a series of chemical reactions... Do you have a different meaning of genetic code than is typical? In genetics, the genetic code is specifically the way in which DNA codons are translated into amino acids.orthomyxo
May 5, 2020
May
05
May
5
05
2020
01:08 PM
1
01
08
PM
PDT
1 2 3

Leave a Reply