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Suppose ID wins…

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For the sake of argument, let’s surmise that, after a long controversy, finally ID succeeds in scientifically convincing all people that life and the universe are designed. Good, but what happens now? If the universe is a design there must be a designer. What is the designer?

It is likely that evolutionists convinced to ID were atheists or at least agnostic. Therefore for these persons, quite paradoxical, accepting ID could imply a very critical point in their intellectual path.

Let’s start with the worse possibility. The worse case for them would be to equate the designer with something that has nothing to do with God, or – worse – even with something that is a caricature of God. This is clearly the case, for example, of the “flying spaghetti monster”. Maybe such disgusting invention came from insane or disturbed persons, nevertheless come to mind the René Guénon’s words:

One can consider satanic, in some measure, any theory that exceedingly deforms the idea of divinity; first of all, according to this point of view, would be the conceptions of a God that evolves and those of a limited God. (L’erreur spirite, part II, chap. X) [my translation]

Hence, technically, to greater reason, “the church of the flying spaghetti monster”, has an ultimate satanic inspiration. Moreover it clearly shows the sign of grotesque, as often satanic productions do. This explains also why this “church” (or better, this “anti-church”) is against all religions. For these reasons, before this sort of things, I don’t laugh at all.

If a Darwinist convinced by ID risks to fall in an incorrect or malicious conception of the Great Designer, then I go until to say that it is better the atheist evolutionist remains such. Because blasphemy and sacrilege are far worse than simple ignorance and negation. That said by an ultra anti-Darwinian (my name speaks clear).

But let’s consider the serious evolutionists, who have demonstrated their intelligence by recognizing the truth of ID. At this point they are in a somewhat intermediate position. They have abandoned materialism but haven’t yet reached theism. They are in a risky middle ground between two opposite worldviews. I said “risky” because they face a cross-road. On the right there is true spirituality, on the left there is false spiritualism. False spiritualism is far worse than materialism. If they abandon materialism to go towards false spiritualism, it would be better for them to remain materialists. That said by an ultra non-materialist.

Countless times it has been said that ID theory per se is simply a scientific design inference. That ID theory doesn’t specify a designer. That the ID inference is unrelated to the identity of the designer, etc. This is true in a sense. But in my opinion to leave fully undefined the designer, without giving at least an hint about, is not to do a good service to our converted friends evolutionists. To have won the scientific controversy without offering a global framework of knowledge, a correct complete worldview, could be a lost opportunity or even counterproductive for them. An ID proponent who has helped to lead those evolutionists towards an ID non materialistic position, has some responsibility about their future intellectual iter, iter which is necessarily related to such worldview. As a metaphor, if you help someone to get across a perilous river, then you cannot leave him alone in the middle, you have to escort him to the opposite side.

It is having in mind my part of responsibility that, in a previous post I tried to explain that theism is an implication of the design inference on the cosmos and give an idea about the Great Designer.

Comments
Gregory: In 34 above, I wrote what I thought was a substantive and moderate reply containing many points you would agree with. In 44, your response deals with only *one word* from that reply. That word is an adverb! And an adverb in a sentence which is not essential to the argument of my post! How about some comments on things you agree with? As for your question, I am aware that Dembski wrote a book called *The Design Revolution.* I have not read it. I have no plans to read it. I have read his less popular and more technical works. I did not get the flavor of "revolution" from those works. What I got from them was a sober argument about the creative limitations of Darwinian and chemical origin-of-life mechanisms. But in any case, I agree with you that there is no need for ID theorists to speak of "revolution." I think that it is for future historians of science to say what theories were "revolutionary"; I think present-day scientists should just try to do good science, and leave grand judgments to posterity. The remarks about dishonesty etc. were uncalled for and serve only to generate unnecessary friction. No dishonesty was intended. I cannot think of more than once, in the ID works that I have read, that ID theorists have claimed to be enacting a "revolution." I recall only one remark of Behe to that effect from all his books and articles, and it was uncharacteristic of Behe's modest style, so I count it as what statisticians call an "outlier." As for the other active scientists among the ID people -- I don't recall Denton, Sternberg, Gauger, Axe, Minnich, or Marks speaking of "revolution." Maybe non-scientist Johnson spoke of "revolution" -- but I've read none of his books. No dishonesty was intended. The most you could accuse me of is understatement. I could have written instead: "Dembski has spoken of revolution, but I cannot think of many other cases where ID proponents have used that language." So I accept your (over-wrought) criticism of one of my adverbs. Did you agree with the remaining 99% of my post? It would help matters if you would acknowledge common ground where it exists.Timaeus
August 28, 2013
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Mr. Rickert, what is truly absurd is this:
"The truly extraordinary claim — indeed, the wildly and irresponsibly outrageous claim — is that a highly scalable, massively parallel system architecture incorporating a 4-bit digital coding system and a super-dense, information-rich, three-dimensional, multi-layered, multi-directional database structure with storage, retrieval and translation mechanisms, utilizing file allocation, concatenation and bit-parity algorithms, operating subject to software protocol hierarchies could all come about through a long series of accidental particle collisions. That is beyond extraordinary. It is preposterous. It is laughable." https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/naturalism-intelligent-design-and-extraordinary-claims-part-ii/
bornagain77
August 28, 2013
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niwrad writes:
There is no third way. Design or no-design. See my previous “A third way between evolution and design?”
I have seen that. It is absurd.Neil Rickert
August 28, 2013
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Gregory #49 Now that I begin to know you I find you more likeable than thought after all. Have you read my "A third way between evolution and design?"? There I provide arguments on the ID/Darwin tertium non datur. You say it is a joke, why specifically?niwrad
August 28, 2013
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"Even Francis Collins said he accepts ID at the cosmological level when he spoke at George Mason University a few years back. Even Steve Barr I suppose accepts ID at the cosmological level." Look, it's the fudge factor again, no integrity or truth allowed! Collins and Barr and the vast majority of Abrahamic monotheists (incl. Baha'is, Muslims, Christians & Jews) accept that there is a Creator, which they call different names. In natural theology, traditional 'design arguments' have been used. But though Collins and Barr accept traditional theological 'design arguments,' they also thoughtfully reject IDism, iow, the 'strictly [natural] scientific theory' championed by the DI-led IDM. Folks like Salvador T. Cordoza are willfully ignorant of the nuances and try to exploit people in the USA less educated and 'perhaps' just as evangelical as they are. At least Salvador openly notes the difference between 'intelligent designer' and 'Intelligent Designer' in his posts, which a guy like timaeus hasn't the courage to acknowledge or willingness to write with clarity. Let me add to #2 (thanks for deleting #1 niwrad), that "If ID wins" freaky people like the pro-censorship author of #47 will dance like deranged little men, gloating over and using missle tracking on atheists. Atheists simply won't last long in an 'IDT victory' scenario; they will be positively discriminated against and forcefully oppressed as inferiors by the temporary governing IDist regime. We're still not sure if the victorious IDists will turn to finally be forward-looking or not because niwrad hasn't yet addressed that. But still, it should be clear: "atheists are not allowed" in the IDism victory scenario.Gregory
August 28, 2013
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"Hurrah Neil! Then you are an IDer. There is no third way." - niwrad Yet another joke on this thread! (However, Neil Rickert does believe in/ambiguously point to lowercase 'intelligent design' theory in philosophy.) The absurdity of IDists saying "If you're not a 'Darwinist' then you're an IDist is really too much. "We are the Borg. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile." - Star Trek Btw, niwrad, I'm curious what is your native language? How does 'Intelligent Design Theory' translate from American English into it? Where I am currently living, the concept duo translates (back into English) as 'Intelligent Project'. Iow, no need to talk about 'design/Design' b/c it obviously blurs the human-made/non-human-made distinction.Gregory
August 28, 2013
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Neil Rickert #39
I have been clear enough that I am not a Darwinist.
Hurrah Neil! Then you are an IDer. There is no third way. Design or no-design. See my previous "A third way between evolution and design?": https://uncommondescent.com/?s=A+third+way+between+evolution+and+design%3F I knew you are an intelligent person. Welcome on the ID movement!niwrad
August 28, 2013
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It is having in mind my part of responsibility that, in a previous post I tried to explain that theism is an implication of the design inference on the cosmos and give an idea about the Great Designer.
Design at the biological level has more implication for human relations. Even Francis Collins said he accepts ID at the cosmological level when he spoke at George Mason University a few years back. Even Steve Barr I suppose accepts ID at the cosmological level. ID at the biological level makes God highly involved in the affairs of life because he was aware of every molecule of the cell and how it would develop into an adult, hence he is aware of every molecule of life. Strictly speaking, it is possible God created angels that created space aliens that created human life. ID doesn't strictly preclude that possibility, and there are some ID proponents favorable to God creating extra terrestrial mechanisms that created life on Earth. See Rob Sheldon's extra-terrestrial OOL hypothesis. Sheldon is sympathetic to ID, he is an author at UncommonDescent, but argues for a different OOL route than others: http://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2F978-94-007-2941-4_21.pdf
Abstract The triumph of Democritean materialism over biology in the nineteenth century was tempered in the twentieth century by the discovery that time was not eternal and that life was too complicated to spontaneously organize. This led to the paradox of assuming only material causes for life’s origin while making them practically impossible. We address this 150-year-old origin-of-life (OOL) problem by redefining it as an information threshold that must be crossed. Since Shannon information has too little capacity to describe life, we expand it to include time and correlated information. Generalized to Einstein’s spacetime, we show that information capacity implies information flow, and flows imply an “ether,” a material carrier. From recent discoveries of fossilized microbial life on carbonaceous CI1 meteorites whose D/H ratios, albedo, and elemental abundance are all cometary, we identify the material carrier with comets. With sufficient cometary density, which we hypothesize may be supplied by the missing galactic dark matter, nonlinear correlations amplify the probability that comets can assemble life from distributed information sources. If information is conserved, as suggested by many cosmologists, then this distributed information source becomes the boundary condition of the 4-sphere describing the Big Bang. Recent advances in theoretical physics suggest that the assumption of the conservation of information along with the conservation of energy is sufficient to derive Newton’s laws, making materialism a corollary of information and the OOL a trivial result of imposed Big Bang boundary conditions as transmitted through the cometary hydrosphere.
I don't think there is anyway to know whether God used proxy agents as proximal designers (like angels) except by Him telling us and we accepting it on faith. So such questions are accessible only by the Designer Himself telling us and our willingness to believe him without formal proof (since I think formal proof would be impossible anyway). I have suggested Sanford's genetic entropy argument, which affirms Christ's genealogy, suggests who the Designer is the Judeo-Christian God since this specialized knowledge of when humanity emerged seems to only proceed from a divine source (because ancient humans certainly did not suppose this!). Even if the YECs don't win their case immediately over the age of the universe, Sanford has won his case that humanity is recent special creation (not likely an evolved being), and that counts for a lot. My only criticism of Sanford's work is he uses Darwinian notions of fitness (reproductive success) instead of Design notions of fitness (functionality). Wome will not immediately think ID is true even if they concluded the fossil time of death was recent. Much less will they believe in God or the Judeo-Christian God as attested by the Table of Nations in Genesis or the genealogy of Christ in Luke 3. See: https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/question-for-evolutionists-if-fossils-are-actually-young-would-you-find-id-more-believable/ I accept that they will not believe even in light of such evidence. But for me, how can I ever believe life was all a mindless accident? That takes too much blind faith, imho. Finally, in light of the uncertainties, and in light of the fact formal proofs of the most important issues will forever elude us, and that only through reasonable faith and God's grace will we find the truth, I argue that creationists and pro-ID theists have far less to lose if they are wrong. On those grounds, ID and theism are a superior wager on what idea is right. https://uncommondescent.com/philosophy/holy-rollers-pascals-wager-if-id-is-wrong-it-was-an-honest-mistake/scordova
August 28, 2013
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"ID[T] succeeds in scientifically convincing all people that life and the universe are designed." Would this not count as a 'scientific revolution,' according to timaeus?!Gregory
August 28, 2013
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Of related note: Researchers have finally developed a somewhat useful mathematical model for molecular biology that has some actual predictive power as to what organisms may or may not do in a given environment by ignoring the Darwinian ‘historical accidents’ presupposition and using a ‘top down’ physiological perspective instead: Simple Math Sheds New Light On a Long-Studied Biological Process - Aug. 7, 2013 Excerpt: Hwa and his team arrived at their surprising finding by employing a new approach called "quantitative biology," in which scientists quantify biological data and discover mathematical patterns, which in turn guide them to develop predictive models of the underlying processes. "This mode of research, an iterative dialogue between data quantitation and model building, has driven the progress of physics for the past several centuries, starting with Kepler's discovery of the law of planetary motion," explains Hwa. "However, it was long thought that biology is so laden with historical accidents which render the application of quantitative deduction intractable.",,, "When we plotted our results, our jaws dropped," recalls Hwa. "The levels of the sugar uptake and utilization enzymes lined up remarkably into two crossing lines when plotted with the corresponding growth rates, with the enzyme level increasing upon carbon limitation and decreasing upon nitrogen and sulfur limitation. The enzyme levels followed the simple mathematical rules like a machine." ,, Hwa points out that the physiological insights derived from simple mathematical relations guided them to figuring out both the strategy and molecular mechanisms their bacteria employ to coordinate carbon metabolism with those of other elements.,, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/08/130807155154.htm Of somewhat related note, Denis Nobel, who is ruffling quite a few Darwinian feathers with his recent lectures on Youtube, is President of the International Union of Physiological Sciencesbornagain77
August 28, 2013
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"I’ve never spoken of “scientific revolution” in connection with ID [meaning 'Intelligent Design Theory']. Others perhaps have." - timaeus Perhaps?! timaeus, are you either deaf or blind or 'perhaps' both? Or are you trying to intentionally distort the truth demonstrated in the public record? Meyer, Dembski, Wells, Nelson - do these names not ring any bells for you? Apparently even your beloved Behe has claimed (on radio) that IDT would constitute a 'scientific revolution' - perhaps the 'greatest in history' - *IF* it can be 'scientifically' proven. And it is precisely the 'strictly [natural] scientific' facade of IDism that this thread is claiming as a hypothetical future 'victory.' Things you say like this, timaeus, which are incredibly dishonest, apparently as a wish to cast doubt on whether or not IDist leaders actually believe they *are* scientific revolutionaries (they surely do - just follow the evidence!), display the 'partisan' spirit you disingenuously claim to detest. Why not be honest and truthful? If you're going to put 'truth above winning,' timaeus, then you should stop spinning your self-serving timaean-IDist rhetoric. Or were you actually unaware that IDist leaders (and many of their evangelical followers) speak and have spoken regularly of 'scientific revolution' wrt IDism?! Dembski's even got a book called "The Design Revolution" (2004). Did you not know this?! timaeus is obviously trying to play a joke on reality here with his perhaps! It was a joke, right?Gregory
August 28, 2013
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In “real life”, it has been my experience that most people who consider themselves “theistic evolutionists” actually hold views that are compatible with intelligent design. However, ID has been so vilified, and equated with traditional “creationism” by some scientists, and in popular culture, that, unless they have taken the time to independently research ID, they are eager to distance themselves from it, in order not to appear to be ignorant. For example, in grad school, I had a few discussions on this topic with someone who considered herself a theistic evolutionist and had a low opinion of intelligent design. She even had BOTH a Christian fish ornament AND one of those fish with legs and the word DARWIN on the back of her car. However, after learning more about what intelligent design actually says, and reading a little of Behe’s Edge of Evolution (especially the “No Interference” section on pages 229-232), she had this to say (quoting an e-mail): “I do agree with the view of creation given in those pages. Thus, I agree to agree with you about creation…The book (and my own views) holds that God may have used natural selection (fit animals eating less fit animals) and evolution as part of his creation process….[However] I think “Theistic Evolution” is a perfectly valid term, and better suited to describe our shared views than “Intelligent Design,” and one which will be palatable to more people (as the term “Intelligent Design” and its followers have had a bad rap in recent years). In short, I agree with you about creation. But I will continue to be a “theistic evolutionist” when people ask about my creation views. Although I do have more respect for the “intelligent design” perspective now.” For those who have not previously read it, I think this article by Jay Richards is a pretty interesting read on the topic of what I think is, in many cases, an issue of “confrontational agreement” rather than true disagreement between “real life” theistic evolutionists and ID.CS3
August 28, 2013
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Neil Rickert:
Evolutionary biology is clearly science,
In what way is it science, Neil? No one knows how many mutations it takes to get a flagellum in a population that never had one, meaning there isn't any quantification. So please be specific as opposed to the bald assertion.Joe
August 28, 2013
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Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness – Talbott – Fall 2011 Excerpt: In the case of evolution, I picture Dennett and Dawkins filling the blackboard with their vivid descriptions of living, highly regulated, coordinated, integrated, and intensely meaningful biological processes, and then inserting a small, mysterious gap in the middle, along with the words, “Here something random occurs.” This “something random” looks every bit as wishful as the appeal to a miracle. It is the central miracle in a gospel of meaninglessness, a “Randomness of the gaps,” demanding an extraordinarily blind faith. At the very least, we have a right to ask, “Can you be a little more explicit here?” http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/evolution-and-the-illusion-of-randomness “It is our contention that if ‘random’ is given a serious and crucial interpretation from a probabilistic point of view, the randomness postulate is highly implausible and that an adequate scientific theory of evolution must await the discovery and elucidation of new natural laws—physical, physico-chemical, and biological.” Murray Eden, “Inadequacies of Neo-Darwinian Evolution as a Scientific Theory,” Mathematical Challenges to the Neo-Darwinian Interpretation of Evolution, editors Paul S. Moorhead and Martin M. Kaplan, June 1967, p. 109. “In discussions with biologists I met large difficulties when they apply the concept of ‘natural selection’ in a rather wide field, without being able to estimate the probability of the occurrence in a empirically given time of just those events, which have been important for the biological evolution. Treating the empirical time scale of the evolution theoretically as infinity they have then an easy game, apparently to avoid the concept of purposesiveness. While they pretend to stay in this way completely ‘scientific’ and ‘rational,’ they become actually very irrational, particularly because they use the word ‘chance’, not any longer combined with estimations of a mathematically defined probability, in its application to very rare single events more or less synonymous with the old word ‘miracle.’” Wolfgang Pauli (pp. 27-28) –bornagain77
August 28, 2013
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Well Mr. Rickert if you are so offended at the charge of hypocrisy (and I make that charge for all theories of 'evolutionary' biology which a priorily excludes design as a viable hypothesis), please feel free to provide the exact criteria by which any naturalistic theory of origins may be mathematically falsified! Without such a rigid falsification criteria, you, and everyone else, are, whether you realize it or not, practicing philosophy rather than science. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/suppose-id-wins/#comment-469738bornagain77
August 28, 2013
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ba77 writes:
Which I find to be an extremely hypocritical statement since, contrary to ID, Darwinism has no demarcation criteria to judge whether it is even ‘science’ in the first place
I have been clear enough that I am not a Darwinist. Where's the hypocrisy? Evolutionary biology is clearly science, and evolutionary biologists are not all Darwinists.Neil Rickert
August 28, 2013
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For example- LarTanner and Neil- What are the alternatives to ID and how can they be tested? Please be specific.Joe
August 28, 2013
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I doubt LarTanner and Neil Rickert know what science is...Joe
August 28, 2013
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Neil Rickert:
ID would first need to actually become scientific.
It is scientific as it can be tested and potentially falsified. OTOH unguided evolution, which is being taught as science, cannot be tested.
Most evolutionists will agree that the problem of Origin of Life is as yet not fully settled, so a clear scientific resolution would be welcomed.
The OoL directly impacts all subsequent evolution. The only way to infer unguided evolution is to have an unguided OoL. If the OoL = design then the inference would be organisms were designed to evolve and evolved by design.
Strong scientific evidence of design would probably be seen as material evidence, and thus as supportive of materialism.
Only if you totally redefine materialism...Joe
August 28, 2013
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ID has already won as unguided evolution doesn't have any support and the evidence supports design.Joe
August 28, 2013
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I thank you for qualifying your earlier remarks, Gregory. On one of your specific points, I have not read all of the places on Feser's site where Feser criticizes Torley, but I have read some of them. I am not convinced by Feser's position on many points. But I was not trying to defend Torley's theology against Feser's theology; I was only pointing out that Torley has never shied away from criticizing Feser. One might judge Torley's position to be weaker than Feser's; one could never say that Torley has feared to address Feser. There is nothing wrong with "debate"; it is a standard part of academic life, and has been so since the founding of universities in the Middle Ages. Indeed, I wish there were more "debate" in the world -- by which I mean not rancorous, name-calling internet shoutfests, but genuine, thoughtful exchanges, where respectful opponents give and take points, learning from each other as they argue, instead of reflexively saying no every time the other side says yes. Certainly I agree with you in your criticism of many past "creation vs. evolution" debates. I studied them for many years in my youth (when I always took the Darwinian side), but came over time to regard them with disgust. And I'm including the tactics and attitudes on *both* sides in that remark. I thus had no intention of returning to the popular arena where evolution was discussed, until ID came along; I saw in Michael Behe someone who could discuss design in nature rationally, and thus rise above the false polarization of creation and evolution. But how was Behe treated? He was violently assaulted by those (Coyne, Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens, Dennett, etc.) who have every interest in dragging the discussion back to "creation versus evolution." And even many TEs, who should know better, i.e., who should know that Behe is not anti-evolution, have often tried to construe his arguments as anti-evolutionary ones. It seems that whenever a thinker comes along and tries to redirect the stale intellectual debate over origins along more constructive lines (e.g., in Behe's case, toward design versus chance, rather than creation versus evolution), he pays a price. Thomas Nagel is now taking similar heat. It seems that the grooves of "creation versus evolution" are dug so deep that most people can't think outside that box. I've never spoken of "scientific revolution" in connection with ID. Others perhaps have. I prefer a much more low-key, modest statement of arguments in favor of ID, along the lines of "in this particular case, intelligent design seems to provide *the best explanation at the moment* for the origin of this organism or system." Unfortunately, even low-key, humble, guarded presentations of ID are jumped on with extreme savagery by the anti-ID crowd, and this polarizes matters. It's very hard to find someone who says a scientifically cautious "maybe" to ID. Everyone seems to be either hardcore "pro" or hardcore "anti." I don't think this is an intellectually healthy situation for scientific discussion. As for the language of "winning," I'd prefer that everybody put truth above "winning." And sincere commitment to truth, more often than not, ends up with *everybody* admitting that to some extent they have been wrong and to some extent the other side has been right. Sincere commitment to truth weakens the partisan spirit, and that's a good thing. What we need today, whether the debate is over evolution or global warming or any number of other things -- is less partisan spirit, and more truly open-minded discussion, where people on all sides say: "This is a complex question with many interacting features. Let's stop posturing and put literally everything on the table for negotiation, and work together rather than against each other, in order to find some answers." I certainly haven't found this to be the spirit in these debates, except among a few, among whom I would include (the list is not exhaustive) Ted Davis, nullasalus, Jon Garvey, and Vincent Torley. A big fraction of the people who post here or elsewhere on the internet have planted their feet in one place, and, to the extent that they listen to the other side at all, it is only in the spirit of "and what lousy, easily refutable argument is this guy going to offer next?" rather than the spirit of "this person may be on to something that I haven't really thought carefully about, so I will avoid knee-jerk response and maybe even think about what he says for a few days instead of offering the first superficial and shallow refutation that pops into my head." The popular debate greatly suffers because it is animated by partisanship, rather than by the assiduous truth-seeking of the scholar or philosopher.Timaeus
August 28, 2013
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Some facts noted, timaeus, with your usual 'timaean' IDist tilt. What I had in mind specifically was V.J. Torley refusing to discuss with me the obvious links between Uppercase Intelligent Design Theory (and Torley does correctly use Uppercase letters) and religion, in his case, with Catholicism (and I linked you already to the threads with Torley on Feser's site where Feser disabuses Torley, but you haven't commented on it). Likewise, there's another person on this site, currently engaging in censorship, who won't respond to a legitimate theistic critique of IDism, just going after atheists instead. So, yes, the blanket statement in this case was too broad, though in my own case, it is a demonstrated fact. Indeed, rather than saying IDists won't 'debate' theistic critics of ID, which is clearly not accurate, it is more accurate to say there are certain questions that IDists won't answer in ‘discussions.’ They either pull a Gish Gallop or simply will not address significant and indeed highly-damaging challenges to their 'strictly [natural] scientific theory' and pretenses to ‘Scientific Revolution!’ This is partly why BioLogos Foundation refused to ‘debate’ with IDists, who are actually trained by the DI and its PR and legal team to ‘debaters’. And frankly, timaeus, this is one thing that makes IDism so hard to stomach for many people; it is still an echo of the creation vs. evolution ‘debates’ of the 20th century. That ‘third way’ you claim to be looking for, is not to be found within IDism as a political movement or as a ‘strictly [natural] scientific’ theory/ideology. And you, timaeus, of all people participating here at UD have demonstrated the most hard-headed ‘debate, deBatE, DeBaTe!’ attitude towards people who reject IDism. Notice the ‘Suppose ID WINS’ debate-like attitude displayed even in the title of this thread? That said, I will thus adjust my challenge to timaeus, in case he is healing yet from his particularly over-developed case of Expelled Syndrome: I challenge timaeus to a formal ‘discussion’ of IDT and TE/EC, which will be published on my blog, not here at UD. If he would like to offer another location where it will be published, he is welcome. But UD is not ‘neutral’ territory. This ‘discussion’ just between he and I, will aim to solve (some of) the antinomy between IDism and TE/EC, indeed considering a ‘third way’ or ‘third ways’ to productively move the general science, philosophy, theology/worldview discourse forward. Gregory p.s. of course, there was no need to make a comment on "Suppose ID wins," timaeus, the main theme of this thread, which I have addressed above, but rather simply to ‘correct’ me with your careful attention to events and people in the ID Movement.Gregory
August 28, 2013
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CS3, you wrote:
When biological ID “wins”, I predict the same thing will happen as when cosmological ID (fine tuning of the universe) “won”: the atheists will resort to unprovable multiverses to account for extremely improbable events.
Eugene Koonin wrote a paper proposing an infinite multiverse as a solution to the improbability of the origin of the RNA replication and translation system. The cosmological model of eternal inflation and the transition from chance to biological evolution in the history of life – Eugene V Koonin (Biology Direct 2007, 2:15) That paper was submitted on the same day to the same journal as a more serious paper that cites it as an alternative hypothesis and lists Koonin as a corresponding author: On the origin of the translation system and the genetic code in the RNA world by means of natural selection, exaptation, and subfunctionalization – Yuri I Wolf and Eugene V Koonin (Biology Direct 2007, 2:14) Uncommon Descent has already covered some of Koonin's writings, in 2011: Eugene V. Koonin’s Darwin-free book free on Kindle! – No. 1 in Biology (In that thread, a commenter CanuckianYankee claimed that Koonin's book isn't Darwin-free but praises Darwin.) If "ID wins" I think there would be a lot of speculation. For instance, does life as we know it have a built-in intelligence that can perform experiments and accumulate the results in DNA, to use them later? If so, where did that come from? Has life always existed in an eternal or time-looping universe? Were there past civilizations or other intelligent species of Earth life that produced GMOs? Were there intelligent extraterrestrials who visited Earth or sent a probe, seeding some lifeforms here? The questions could keep people entertained with science fiction possibilities for centuries. That is, there's no need for everyone to start believing in Ahura Mazda just because they accept ID.SonnyE
August 28, 2013
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rprado what you say represents a perfect confirmation of the necessity of my article. You are not a materialist, you well understand that the universe is designed, but you speak of many cosmic "designers" because "God has not the infinite resources...". Have you read the article I linked at the end? There I explain that the First Cause is unlimited and, as a consequence, the manifested universe is infinitesimal compared to this Source. This Metaphysical Infinite (which has nothing to do with the mathematical "infinities", which aren't unlimited at all) is really the first thing to grasp, if you want to know the truth.niwrad
August 28, 2013
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When biological ID “wins”, I predict the same thing will happen as when cosmological ID (fine tuning of the universe) “won”: the atheists will resort to unprovable multiverses to account for extremely improbable events.
That's aiming pretty low. For an ID philosophical schema to "win," the fact of a designer must be taught in high school science class, with the same ease that one would teach that the sky is blue. As it is, ID "winning" the cosmological debate looks a lot like ID losing the debate, except with some minority view skirmishing over philosophical questions. A materialist would probably let you have biological ID on these terms, since ID "winning" means little more to you than being able to denounce the hypocrisy of materialists.sigaba
August 28, 2013
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Gregory #19
p.s. niwrad, please be welcome to delete #1 in this thread as I messed up on the formating
I would do it, but then wordpress renumbers the comments and the pointers in the comments become wrong. Gregory #12
As for niwrad’s disingenuous “spirit of pacification,” get a new (not intentionally antagonistic) name then, humble yourself and come to respect Darwin’s important contribution to human knowledge about nature for what it is: significant and meaningful.
But I do respect "Darwin’s important contributions to human knowledge about nature"! The problem is that Darwin's theory (ameba-to-man naturalistic unintelligent macroevolution by natural selection) is cent percent wrong. Also if I am the more pacific guy on earth, I cannot say that a thing is correct when it is wrong. My name wants to somehow symbolize the reestablishment of the truth. Nothing of personal with Darwin though. I don't counter men, I counter errors.niwrad
August 27, 2013
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When biological ID "wins", I predict the same thing will happen as when cosmological ID (fine tuning of the universe) "won": the atheists will resort to unprovable multiverses to account for extremely improbable events. If we can say that the reason the fundamental constants have values so well suited to the development of life is because we just happen to be in the lucky multiverse where that is true, you could also say that the reason irreducibly complex biological systems exist is because we just happen to be in the lucky multiverse where all the right mutations happened at once. In fact, I think the only reason atheists have not already resorted to this argument is that it would mean conceding that the "creationists" were right all along that random mutations and natural selection are insufficient to explain all of biology. Behe's "Edge of Evolution" could well have been written by an atheist, with the only difference being that those things beyond the edge of evolution would be attributed to the anthropic principle rather than an intelligent designer.CS3
August 27, 2013
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Larry, Can you provide a few examples, with the accompanying details, of the lies that ID proponents promote in their papers and books?Upright BiPed
August 27, 2013
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Gregory: I do not wish to engage in rancorous conflict with you, or in any clash of egos. However, I would like to point out that one of the statements you made above is not in accord with the facts. You wrote [in #2 above]: [Aside: this is why IDists today *tend to shrink away from debates with theists who thoughtfully reject IDT after having tasted it* and focus instead on atheists and agnostics.] (emphasis added) I know of no evidence for this statement, and plenty of evidence against it. Here is a small sampling of counter-evidence, showing that ID people are eager to engage with theists who are critical of ID and/or accept Darwinian or other forms of evolution: 1. Behe will debate theistic critics of ID with pleasure. There is an excellent podcast debate of Michael Behe with Stephen Barr, and of course he has many times debated Ken Miller. And of those two, at least Barr surely qualifies as "thoughtful." 2. ID people tried regularly to engage Francis Collins prior to his NIH appointment (when no conflict of interest concerns prevented him from debating over creation, evolution, and design issues). To the best of my knowledge, he turned down 100% of all challenges to debate by ID people. This was very frustrating to ID people, because Collins regularly stated false things about the ID position, and would not show himself publically responsible for those statements by replying to ID critics. 3. Karl Giberson was regularly challenged by ID commenters on the BioLogos website; he almost never replied to comments there. He would never defend his position in sustained argument. The same was true of Kathryn Applegate and indeed of almost all BioLogos regular or frequent columnists, except for Enns, Davis, and Venema. 4. In the one case where Giberson appeared more flexible to ID concerns and more self-critical regarding some versions of the TE/EC position, a UD columnist responded positively to his apparent open-mindedness and tried to further dialogue with Giberson and BioLogos, based on Giberson's remarks. Giberson remained entirely silent, blowing a good chance for ID/TE rapprochement. 5. Francis Beckwith dropped in here a few times to toss a few Thomist bombs. He was taken up by several commenters here who wanted to discuss very specific passages and teachings of Thomas Aquinas. He exited the scene instead of responding. Basically his implied position was: "I know Aquinas, you guys don't, so just accept me as your teacher and learn." But in fact the commenters showed textual evidence that Beckwith did *not* understand some aspects of Aquinas, and he turned tail. It was Beckwith who ended the discussion, not the ID folks. 6. At the "vibrant dance of faith and science" conference a few years back, ID proponents Stephen Meyer and Doug Axe agreed to debate Darrel Falk and Randy Isaac. It was all set up, but then the TE team pulled out of the debate. They had a legitimate pro forma reason for doing so (an unnecessarily aggressive write-up prior to the debate by a misguided Discovery staffer), but no really substantial reason, given the fact that Meyer and Axe were known to them as very polite and civilized Christian debaters. 7. At the Wheaton Conference, a BioLogos-TE team finally agreed to engage an ID team, but one or more members (no one will own up to it) of the TE team vetoed the publication of the proceedings, so that the world never got to see the relative strength of ID and TE positions. 8. Vincent Torley has responded very vigorously, and with great erudition, to Thomist critics such as Tkacz, Beckwith, and Feser. There are thousands of words of his columns here to prove that. William Dembski has also engaged the neo-Thomists on many occasions, including here on this site, in columns of his own or commenting on other people's columns. Jay Richards has also responded to some of the Thomist critique of ID (and to the position of Plantinga as well). 9. ID people have many times debated theists Denis Lamoureux and Steve Matheson, on stage, before TV cameras, and on the internet. 10. I do not know whether or not Steve Fuller counts as a theist in your book. If he does, he is certainly a theist with whom ID folks have interacted. He even has authorial privileges on this site. Obviously they are not shying away from his critique if they give him a platform to air it! 11. I myself have written tens of thousands of words on this site, and a similar amount as a guest of Ted Davis on the old ASA list, when he relayed my Timaean views to the others there. I have not shied from taking on Murphy, Isaac, etc. in direct debate. And if you look at earlier years of the ASA talk group, before I was there, you will find Paul Nelson actively involved, and, for a time, Cornelius Hunter. Possibly also Wells, Meyer, and Dembski, though I haven't thoroughly searched the archives. 12. Biola University, an ID-sympathetic place, invited Karl Giberson to speak to the students there, showing its willingness to engage with the TE/EC viewpoint. I could go on and on, but I think I have made my point. There is no lack of will on the ID part to engage with thoughtful (or non-thoughtful) theistic evolutionists / evolutionary creationists. ID people are not afraid, do not "shrink away," and do not try to avoid debates with such people. Rather, they welcome and even seek out such debates. In light of this evidence, I hope you will modify your statement. However, if you don't, I will not engage in a war with you over it. I am not interested in any kind of "victory" over you. I just want the facts placed on the table. The readers here can judge how much ID folks "shrink away" from thoughtful non-ID theists and their criticism.Timaeus
August 27, 2013
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Collin: I took some time and thought and effort to respond to a comment of yours at: https://uncommondescent.com/off-topic/ba77s-off-topic-thread/ My response is #74. In it I correct what appears to be a misunderstanding you have about the work of Michael Denton. I just want to make sure that you saw my comment. I have no way of knowing that at the moment, because you haven't responded. If you don't want to discuss Denton further, just say so, but at least let me know whether or not you read the comment.Timaeus
August 27, 2013
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