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Survival of the fittest: Is there really a battle raging among evolutionists over fitness?

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At Telic Thoughts, Techne tells us that on “Fitness: A Battle is Raging” (November 5, 2011):

In an earlier post it was pointed out that John O. Reiss argues that the fitness landscape metaphor has teleological implications. If evolution is anything close to the metaphor then the process is fundamentally teleological.

The rigor of this approach, however, is lessened because there is as yet no universally agreed upon measure of fitness; fitness is either defined metaphorically, or defined only relative to the particular model or system used. It is fair to say that due to this lack, there is still no real agreement on what exactly the process of natural selection is. This is clearly a problem.

We’re not sure whether any battle really is raging.

The obvious reason that there is “still no real agreement on what exactly the process of natural selection is” is that the case for Darwinism would then fall apart in the face of disconfirming evidence.

Here’s what would go wrong: Let’s say a Darwinist forthrightly declares that he sees no evidence for Dawkins’s “selfish gene.” Very well, he cannot then invoke selfish gene arguments in his own defense of Darwinism. It’s better to avoid specifics, bellow that “evolution is fact, Fact, FACT,” and refuse to debate the subject. That way his defenses can go in all directions at once, like a bee gathering nectar.

What possible fact base can dislodge such a strategy, given that it is accepted as legitimate?

But we’d love to be wrong.

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Comments
geez, Gino, Scott, do stop scrapping! I like you both dammit. Can't we just get on and discuss the cichlids and the treehoppers? You're welcome at my place, except you'd have to play nice.Elizabeth Liddle
November 7, 2011
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GinoB,
You still didn’t read the paper, only quote-mined sections from an MSNBC article!
Of the two of us I'm the only one who did read it. Where did I get the part where he acknowledges the competing hypothesis? If you had read the article you'd have been able to tell that I'd read it.
We think this is an example of how evolution can work at a morphological level, by recycling a genetic program by expressing it in a new location on the body
If you wish to define evolution as moving around what was already there and putting it in weird places for no known reason, that works for me.
Are dogs and foxes the same created ‘kind’? How can you tell?
Don't know, don't care. I'm answering you for the sake of any onlookers who've been told for years about the mythical 'mountain of evidence.' You're looking as hard as you can, I've lost count of how much you've dug up, and every paper is as substantive as dust on a scale. There is a mountain - a mountain of that stuff. Next time I'll require a more thorough explanation in your own words, no cutting and pasting, before I reply. Two paragraphs minimum. If you want to waste my time you at least have to work for it.ScottAndrews2
November 7, 2011
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Big fat ROFL @ ScottAndrews2 the quote-miner! You still didn't read the paper, only quote-mined sections from an MSNBC article! Why did you leave out this part?
"We think this is an example of how evolution can work at a morphological level, by recycling a genetic program by expressing it in a new location on the body," said study researcher Benjamin Prud'homme of the Institut de Biologie du Développement de Marseille-Luminy in France. "It was the raw material for evolution to play with, to evolve into new shapes."
You said there's no evidence of a mechanism for forming new body parts at all The paper directly refutes you. But you're way too immature to admit it.
Curious that he describes what he doesn’t understand as “gray area.” That’s one way of putting it.
That is a description of what his work is investigating and discovering, as the paper shows. The exact thing you keep claiming is impossible! I'll note you ran away from yet another set of questions. Are dogs and foxes the same created ‘kind’? How can you tell? Please please please for once quit avoiding and answer the simple questions.GinoB
November 7, 2011
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GinoB, I'll give you partial credit for a few of your own words. You did copy and paste some of it, which isn't shameful except when you're pretending they are your own words. From the author of the paper:
"We don't know the function of the helmet," Prud'homme told LiveScience. "To human eyes, they look like they mimic the environment in which the animal lives."
There goes your natural selection. Rather than observing any selection at all, the author assumes it and comes up with a post-hoc explanation. At least he has the honesty to admit he doesn't know. Odd that you're more certain than he is. You therefore fail on demonstrating natural selection at work. A post-hoc guess at a selective cause cannot also be evidence of selection. The author explains that the "helmets" are simply expressions of a third set of wings which had not been used for millions of years. The "escape" of the wings from repression is considered a defect. How many tries is this, GinoB? Your latest and greatest evidence of the mechanisms of evolution is bugs with extra wings fused together. Even the author cannot say whether selection is at work. He admittedly makes a guess. He also states that it could be something more similar to the head of a horn beetle. In other words, after all this, he admits that it's only a hypothetical explanation and that there are others. Most importantly, he plainly states that these are expressions of existing genes. Nothing new has been generated!
"We understand how things can be removed, but don't understand how novel features can be added," Prud'homme said. "This is much more gray area of our understanding."
Curious that he describes what he doesn't understand as "gray area." That's one way of putting it. What's really amazing is that with all your Googling to find support for the cornerstone of all biology, this is all you can find. Do they keep the really good stuff in a secret vault somewhere? As usual, I haven't said a thing you couldn't have found out for yourself. Bugs with what might be helmets that might be fused-together wings or might not be. Please, stop overwhelming me with evidence. LOL, really!ScottAndrews2
November 7, 2011
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ScottAndrews2
As I have said, I will not read another link you post until you describe what it says in its own words to indicate that you have read and understood it, because that hasn’t been the case once so far.
But I already did so Scott, right here. Here's the description again: "a reconstruction of the evolution of the treehopper’s helmet (including genetic pathways involving Dll and hth genes, and nubbin protein) showing it is a modified T1 dorsal appendage with a bilateral origin. The primary use (and selection force) of the helmet is predator defense through mimicry." You ran away and refused to comment on it, remember? It's awfully hard to have a discussion when I'm here and you keep fleeing like your pants are on fire.
As for the answers to your other questions, they can be found by carefully re-reading my previous posts.
Really? That's interesting because I just asked you for the first time if dogs and foxes the same created ‘kind’. Well, are they? It's a simple question. Please answer it for the lurkers if not for me.GinoB
November 7, 2011
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GinoB, Every post begins with "LOL!" No one actually believes that you are LOL. I suspect GMT is more accurate (grinding my teeth.) High blood pressure is the silent killer. (I, on the other hand, am developing powerful eye-rolling muscles.) As I have said, I will not read another link you post until you describe what it says in its own words to indicate that you have read and understood it, because that hasn't been the case once so far. As for the answers to your other questions, they can be found by carefully re-reading my previous posts.ScottAndrews2
November 7, 2011
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PetrushkaNovember 7, 2011 at 2:16 pm
Actually, silver foxes evolved into household pets having many physical similarities to dogs in the course of one lifetime.
That's one human lifetime, not one fox lifetime. :) I assume you're referring to this long term experiment to breed 'tame' foxes. Interesting thing is that as the foxes were being selected/bred for a tame disposition, they also experienced physical changes like raised tails and mottled fur. Just as many genes can affect one trait, one gene can affect many traits. ScottAndrews2, are dogs and foxes the same created 'kind'? How can you tell?GinoB
November 7, 2011
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Actually, silver foxes evolved into household pets having many physical similarities to dogs in the course of one lifetime. Artificial selection, but no games played with the source of variation. The speed of evolution seems to vary depending on the type of regulatory networks. Canids seem to be very plastic. Cockroaches not so much.Petrushka
November 7, 2011
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ScottAndrews2
It’s long been evident that separated populations of a species eventually vary from each other. That this would lead to some novel evolution is wishful.
LOL! Let me guess - you get to define 'novel' just like you defined 'significant', right? Can you please explain why the evolutionary changes documented in this paper about leafhopper evolution don't qualify as 'novel'?
What bearing does that have on the tautological trio of fitness, survival, and selection? All three are real factors, but become instances of circular logic when applied historically. Everything demonstrates selection, and selection explains everything. Each is obviously true because the other is obviously true.
You have already agreed that all three combined into one process are real, and empirically observable, and work to create observable evolutionary changes. What factors would make the identical process not work the same way in the past? Please be specific and provide your evidence that such factors actually existed. Your "you didn't see it in real time so it didn't happen" argument is as silly as they come. Tell us, who in real time observed wolves evolving into Chihuahuas and Great Danes? Is that circular reasoning too or is it supported by the genetic evidence?GinoB
November 7, 2011
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PFXGumby:
Natural selection itself is not a result as you state in 3.2.
Yes. it is. It is the result of three processes:
“Natural selection is the result of differences in survival and reproduction among individuals of a population that vary in one or more heritable traits.” Page 11 “Biology: Concepts and Applications” Starr fifth edition
The 3 processes are fecundity, heritability and random variation.
“Natural selection is the simple result of variation, differential reproduction, and heredity—it is mindless and mechanistic.” UBerkley
"The Origin of Theoretical Population Genetics" (University of Chicago Press, 1971), reissued in 2001 by William Provine:
Natural selection does not act on anything, nor does it select (for or against), force, maximize, create, modify, shape, operate, drive, favor, maintain, push, or adjust. Natural selection does nothing….Having natural selection select is nifty because it excuses the necessity of talking about the actual causation of natural selection. Such talk was excusable for Charles Darwin, but inexcusable for evolutionists now. Creationists have discovered our empty “natural selection” language, and the “actions” of natural selection make huge, vulnerable targets. (pp. 199-200)
PFX
In this sense “fitness” is a composite or proxy for all the traits that permit differential reproduction.
But even sheer dumb luck can result in an increase in "fitness"- as I said differential reproduction is an after-the-fact assessment. Survival of the fittest- who are the fittest? those who survive and reproduce. Who survives and reproduces? The fittest! The "filter" is very lax- whatever is "good enough" usually survives and reproduces.Joseph
November 7, 2011
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I googled "founder effect." Relevance? Documented effects have been deafness and Huntington's disease. It's long been evident that separated populations of a species eventually vary from each other. That this would lead to some novel evolution is wishful. What bearing does that have on the tautological trio of fitness, survival, and selection? All three are real factors, but become instances of circular logic when applied historically. Everything demonstrates selection, and selection explains everything. Each is obviously true because the other is obviously true.ScottAndrews2
November 7, 2011
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Are you really that obtuse?
Ah, the famed IDist civility which is in stark contrast to the oh-so-rude atheist materialist evolutionists. Yes, the results of natural selection are assessed after the fact, as you state in 3.2.1.1. Natural selection itself is not a result as you state in 3.2. That's why I asked for elaboration. NS is the process whereby those organisms with traits that are more advantageous in a given environment reproduce more than those without. Yes, fitness used as you define in 3.2.1.1 - the population genetics sense - is an a posteriori assessment. However, fitness used in the ecological sense, as in "survival of the fittest" is slightly different. In this sense "fitness" is a composite or proxy for all the traits that permit differential reproduction. In this sense, "fitness" is the cause, and the catchphrase isn't a tautology. The linked papers in the OP deal with the different uses of the term.
Do you not understand the theory of evolution?
Not as well as some, but better than most here I think.Prof. FX Gumby
November 7, 2011
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ScottAndrews2
Trolling is easy.
Is that why you keep doing it?
Natural selection is real. A change in temperature may kill most of a population of bacteria. The result is a population of bacteria that can survive in a different temperature. But the observed accumulations of such selections are always quite limited, comparable to the results of artificial selection. They are always the same type of bacteria, always dogs.
ZOOM!! go Scott's rocket powered goalposts!
Natural selection is also applied tautologically. When someone says that an organism evolved to its present state by means of variation and selection, they have no idea what the history of that selection might have been
..and again with the standard evasion: "THAR AIN'T NO DARN EVIDENCE!!!! Want to discuss that paper on treehopper evolution yet? The one with evidence showing how the insects evolved a completely new body part?
At this point selection is not an observation of differential reproduction for any particular reason.
Now we get the channeling of Ken Ham: "were you there??? Did you see it??? Tell us Scott - who observed your Intelligent Designer creating life forms? Maybe you wouldn't make a good comedian, you keep using old stale material.GinoB
November 7, 2011
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GinoB, Trolling is easy. It's easy to point out seeming inconsistencies between two statements when you don't understand either. Natural selection is real. A change in temperature may kill most of a population of bacteria. The result is a population of bacteria that can survive in a different temperature. But the observed accumulations of such selections are always quite limited, comparable to the results of artificial selection. They are always the same type of bacteria, always dogs. Natural selection is also applied tautologically. When someone says that an organism evolved to its present state by means of variation and selection, they have no idea what the history of that selection might have been. They assume that because it exists in its current form, that form and the intermediate genetic increments that preceded it must have been selected. At this point selection is not an observation of differential reproduction for any particular reason. Selection is attributed to whatever exists or existed because it exists or existed. That is tautological and circular. I realize that to apply two differing assessments to one concept in two contexts is quite a strain for you. Or it simply provides a convenient target for yet another trollish, argumentative response. But that's okay. Everyone else gets it, even if they don't agree.ScottAndrews2
November 7, 2011
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Yes GinoB, I understand taht you are a mental midget that cannot figure anything out on his own- AGAIN- natural selection is a result of 3 processes- NS is differential reproduction due to heritable random variation. There isn't any selecting going on- so what do you think it does?Joseph
November 7, 2011
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Joseph
And ID does not say NS doesn’t exist ID says it doesn’t do anything and taht is what the evidence says.
ScottAndrews2 says NS works. You say it doesn't do anything. You guys ever going to agree on any point about ID 'theory'?GinoB
November 7, 2011
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Founder effect- see Noah's Ark.... ;)Joseph
November 7, 2011
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GinoB- You are the joke you moron. Natural selection can be a tautology and still exist. And ID does not say NS doesn't exist ID says it doesn't do anything and taht is what the evidence says.Joseph
November 7, 2011
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LOL! ScottAndrews2, one post
That is why, despite protests, natural selection is tautological, at least when applied to evolutionary history. Whatever exists or existed was, by definition, selected. There are no other specifics or details to supplement that definition.
ScottAndrews2, 30 minutes later
I’m not claiming that natural selection does not exist or does not work. Artificial selection works as well.
You'd make a great stand-up comedian.GinoB
November 7, 2011
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Are you really that obtuse? Natural selection is the result of three processes- it is differential reproduction due to heritable random variation. All results are after-the-fact assessments. Fitness is about reproductive success- and who outreproduces who is an after-the-fact assessment. Look here:
Fitter or less fit are concepts we assign a posteriori.
Do you not understand the theory of evolution?Joseph
November 7, 2011
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GinoB, I'm not claiming that natural selection does not exist or does not work. Artificial selection works as well. And to the extent that the one is observed and the other is performed, we see very similar results. From the former, multicolored cichlid fishes. From the latter, great danes and chihuahuas. If the brief sentences I type in plain English are beyond your comprehension, it's no surprise that you post links to research papers without understanding those either.ScottAndrews2
November 7, 2011
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Care to elaborate more on your bald assertion? Or rather two assertions - that both natural selection and fitness are after the fact assessments.Prof. FX Gumby
November 7, 2011
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But selection is a critical component, and when applied historically it is just assumed that whatever existed or lived was selected.
Really? Google "founder effect".Prof. FX Gumby
November 7, 2011
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Scott, you forgot to explain why artificial selection works. Do you really not understand that either?GinoB
November 7, 2011
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GinoB:
Selection favors one over the other because all animals in a population aren’t identical.
What an imbecile- natural selection doesn't select, act nor favor. It- natural selection- is a result- another after-the-fact assessment.Joseph
November 7, 2011
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Further notes:
Natural Selection Falsified - Dr. John Sanford - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4587204/ Oxford University Admits Darwinism's Shaky Math Foundation - May 2011 Excerpt: However, mathematical population geneticists mainly deny that natural selection leads to optimization of any useful kind. This fifty-year old schism is intellectually damaging in itself, and has prevented improvements in our concept of what fitness is. - On a 2011 Job Description for a Mathematician, at Oxford, to 'fix' the persistent mathematical problems with neo-Darwinism within two years. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/05/oxford_university_admits_darwi046351.html Metamorphosis Video Exclusive: Dr. Ann Gauger Discusses Limits of Natural Selection - October 2011 http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/entry/2011-10-03T14_00_42-07_00 Natural Selection Reduces Genetic Information - No Beneficial Mutations - Spetner - Denton - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4036816 EXPELLED - Natural Selection And Genetic Mutations - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4036840 "...but Natural Selection reduces genetic information and we know this from all the Genetic Population studies that we have..." Maciej Marian Giertych - Population Geneticist - member of the European Parliament - EXPELLED Using Computer Simulation to Understand Mutation Accumulation Dynamics and Genetic Load: Excerpt: We apply a biologically realistic forward-time population genetics program to study human mutation accumulation under a wide-range of circumstances.,, Our numerical simulations consistently show that deleterious mutations accumulate linearly across a large portion of the relevant parameter space. http://bioinformatics.cau.edu.cn/lecture/chinaproof.pdf MENDEL’S ACCOUNTANT: J. SANFORD†, J. BAUMGARDNER‡, W. BREWER§, P. GIBSON¶, AND W. REMINE http://www.scpe.org/vols/vol08/no2/SCPE_8_2_02.pdf
bornagain77
November 7, 2011
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GinoB, That apparently went over your head in its entirety. It's not just natural selection. But selection is a critical component, and when applied historically it is just assumed that whatever existed or lived was selected. That's circular and tautological. As I said before, I'm not wasting any more of my time reading anything you link to unless you can explain it in your own words first. You've shown repeatedly that you don't read or understand what you link to.ScottAndrews2
November 7, 2011
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ScottAndrews2
Darwinists will deny this up and down. But when pointing out historical “transitions” they attribute the changes to natural selection – fitness.
Of course they don't. Evolutionary transitions are caused by the process of genetic variation filtered by selection of creatures that retain heritable variation for subsequent generations. Why do keep repeating the same dumb claim that it's *just* natural selection after you've been corrected at least half a dozen times?
Even if they could reduce the transitional changes to individual genetic changes, they cannot begin to explain why selection favored one over the other.
Yes, we can. Selection favors one over the other because all animals in a population aren't identical. The differences give rise to differential reproductive success, where certain characteristics (either physical or behavioral) give a better chance for their owners to survive/mate/pass on their genes than their neighbors. That is Biology 101. Why don't you understand it? I could post dozens of papers and references on the topic but you'd refuse to read them, like you always do.
That is why, despite protests, natural selection is tautological, at least when applied to evolutionary history. Whatever exists or existed was, by definition, selected. There are no other specifics or details to supplement that definition.
LOL! ScottAndrew2 and Joseph, co-presidents of the "THAR AIN'T NO DARN EVIDENCE!!" club. Scott, why don't you explain to us why artificial selection as used in animal husbandry works? Here's a hint: humans in this case are part of the selection pressure that removes from the population the 'less fit' animals with the undesirable traits.GinoB
November 7, 2011
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Assorted Notes:
I got a new copy of ReMine’s The Biotic Message and re-read his chapters on Natural Seleciton and I get to see it all in action. (Mung) Summary Inventive natural selection is the distinctive evolutionary mechanism – essential to Darwinian theory. Evolutionists presume it creates new adaptations by somehow traversing the hills and valleys of the fitness terrain. But they do not attempt to defend it as testable science. Rather, for the defense they shift back to the naive version – survival of the fittest. Then they might offer some tautology to help expunge all doubt. When challenged, they shift between various formulations They use naive natural selection to convince the public that evolution is simple, testable, and virtually inevitable. When opponents point out that such continually uphill evolution is refuted by the data, evolutionists effortlessly shift away from naive natural selection. Then they charge that the opponent has a poor understanding of evolutionary theory. In short, evolutionists merely shifted away from criticism, then focused their arguments (and your attention) in a direction that seemed to overcome the criticism. This phenomenon occurs at several levels. Biological adaptation by natural selection is not inevitable, nor is the theory scientific. It had merely lent support to the philosophy of naturalism. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/natural-selection-defies-the-odds/comment-page-1/#comment-384066 Inconsistent Nature: The Enigma of Life's Stupendous Prodigality - James Le Fanu - September 2011 Excerpt: Many species that might seem exceptionally well adapted for "the survival of the fittest" are surprisingly uncommon. The scarce African hunting dog has the highest kill rate of any predator on the savannah, while cheetahs may have no difficulty in feeding themselves thanks to their astonishing speediness -- but are a hundred times less common than lions. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/09/inconsistent_nature051281.html Hopeful Monsters and Other Tales: Evolutionists Challenge Darwin - Feb. 2010 Excerpt: Jerry Fodor, a (atheistic) philosopher at Rutgers, is angry at the dogmatic Darwinists who see natural selection as the be-all and end-all of evolutionary change.,,, Fodor’s beef with natural selection appears to stem from its storytelling propensity. Why do people have traits like hair on their heads and dark hair with dark eyes? “You can make up a story that explains why it was good to have those properties in the original environment of selection,” he said. “Do we have any reason to think that story is true? No.” Fodor co-authored the book "What Darwin Got Wrong" http://www.creationsafaris.com/crev201002.htm#20100224a Survival of the fittest theory: Darwinism’s limits – Jerry Fodor and Massimo Piattelli-Palmarini – Feb 2010 Excerpt: Much of the vast neo-Darwinian literature is distressingly uncritical. The possibility that anything is seriously amiss with Darwin’s account of evolution is hardly (ever) considered.,,, Natural Selection has shown insidious imperialistic tendencies. http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20527466.100-survival-of-the-fittest-theory-darwinisms-limits.html "Natural selection does not act on anything, nor does it select (for or against), force, maximize, create, modify, shape, operate, drive, favor, maintain, push, or adjust. Natural selection does nothing…. Having natural selection select is nifty because it excuses the necessity of talking about the actual causation of natural selection. Such talk was excusable for Charles Darwin, but inexcusable for evolutionists now. Creationists have discovered our empty “natural selection” language, and the “actions” of natural selection make huge, vulnerable targets." The Origin of Theoretical Population Genetics, 2001 (pp. 199-200) William Provine - Professor of Evolutionary Biology - Cornell University
bornagain77
November 7, 2011
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Darwinists will deny this up and down. But when pointing out historical "transitions" they attribute the changes to natural selection - fitness. Even if they could reduce the transitional changes to individual genetic changes, they cannot begin to explain why selection favored one over the other. At best they can make up a post-hoc explanation. That is why, despite protests, natural selection is tautological, at least when applied to evolutionary history. Whatever exists or existed was, by definition, selected. There are no other specifics or details to supplement that definition.ScottAndrews2
November 7, 2011
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