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Thanks for the CSI Debate; Back to Work for Me

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Thank you to all who have participated in the CSI debate over the last few days, especially Winston, vjtorley, keiths, KF, HeKS. It has been an illuminating discussion. Thanks especially to vjt for his effort to synthesize the various positions. I have a real job and I have already spent far too much time away from it on this subject, but I wanted to address one final topic before heading back to work.

Some of our opponents have criticized my “challenge” as being impossible to meet “by definition.” They say that CSI is “defined” as that which is beyond the reach of chance/law processes, and therefore it is literally meaningless to set up a challenge that calls for a demonstration of chance/law processes creating CSI. Of all the responses to this objection (including my own), I think HeKS had the best. He writes:

What needs to be understood is that this does not mean, by definition, that it could not have been produced by any natural process. It is not logically impossible that some natural process could cause the effect in question. Rather, the argument is that we have not actually observed any natural processes ever producing the types of specified effects in question and overcoming the astronomical odds against them doing so, but that we have observed – and do observe – intelligent agency bringing about those kinds of specified effects all the time.

Hence, the reasoning goes that if some effect is calculated to display a high degree of CSI on all chance hypotheses – or, put another away, is found to match an independent specification and also be astronomically improbable with respect to every known natural process that might be proposed to explain it – then design is tentatively considered to be a better explanation of the effect (being the only kind of cause known to be capable of producing it) than an appeal to extreme good fortune that would not be expected to happen even once in the entire history of the universe.

This is the important part:

There are at least two ways this inference could be falsified: [i.e., my challenge could be met]:

1) A natural process could be discovered that shows the effect not to be improbable, thereby falsifying the claim that it demonstrates CSI; or 2) A natural process could be demonstrated to bring about specified effects that are highly improbable with respect to that particular natural process, thereby falsifying the claim that CSI implies design for similar and lesser degrees of complexity (improbability).

This last paragraph articulates the intuition that lead to the challenge. For any specification that we BELIEVE to be beyond the capability of chance/law processes– 500 coins all heads, the first 20 lines of Hamlet, any meaningful English paragraph, etc., etc. – show that belief to be false by showing a chance/law process that has been actually observed creating the specification. The challenge will then have been met.

In other words, if a materialist were to show a chance/law process landing on what we believe to be a highly improbable specification, one of HeKS falsification criteria will have necessarily been met. The materialist will have shown either:

(1) that our belief that that the pattern was improbable given the chance hypothesis with respect to chance/law processes was wrong; or

(2) that even if the belief about low probability was correct, we were wrong to believe that only design can land on specifications with low probability.

Here is the flaw in the “by definition” argument. When we designate a pattern as having CSI one of the things we are saying is that based on our current understanding of all chance/law processes, the probability of those processes landing on the specification in question is astronomically low. The probability is not “defined” to be astronomically low. It is believed to be astronomically low. To meet the challenge, all the materialist has to do is demonstrate that that belief is false. When we make a design inference based on the existence of CSI, we are also saying that our best understanding of the cause of the specification is “design.” Another way to meet the challenge is to show that is not the best understanding, because chance/law forces have been observed creating the improbable specification. Nothing about the definition of CSI precludes that demonstration.

Comments
Why does it have to be in peer-review? Unguided/ blind watchmaker evolution doesn't have that. My point is that Dembski made a claim- in writing. And tat claim proves that you and your ilk are totally wrong about CSI. Deal with it.Joe
November 19, 2014
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Joe: "Yes, really. Read “No Free Lunch”. What a out "peer reviewed scientific journal" does your 150 IQ not understand?centrestream
November 19, 2014
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Bob, a stochastic process is ruled by randomness. The selection part of the Mabinogion sheep is not random.Joe
November 19, 2014
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Joe - a stochastic process is one with randomness in it. The Mabinogion sheep bleat randomly, thus the process is a stochastic process, and thus is stochastic.Bob O'H
November 19, 2014
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Bob:
I agree it’s artificial, but then so are all other applications of CSI that have been presented!
Because our opponents have said that CSI hasn't been measured/ calculated for anything. Also it is called "proof of concept".
Your comment that it is not stochastic is, I’m afraid, just wrong.
Prove it. No way we are taking your word for it. That is like saying animal husbandry is a stochastic process.Joe
November 19, 2014
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Dembski said he has proven that blind and undirected processes cannot produce CSI. That is very different from what keith s says. Acartia/ spearshake/ centre sock:
Really?
Yes, really. Read "No Free Lunch".Joe
November 19, 2014
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Adapa is evolving very rapidly! . From pretending to be an open-minded truth-seeker:
1 Adapa November 8, 2014 at 9:36 am Have any scientists from the ID community taken a look at this data? I’m trying to understand how it fits in with a Design scenario. Can someone here help?
To thinly-veiled sarcasm:
1 Adapa November 8, 2014 at 10:22 am Has anyone calculated the CSI of these mysterious mimivirus genome strings to see if they were designed? Or the dFSCI? Or the FSCO/I? Seems like it could be pretty important.
To spewing childish nonsense:
21 Adapa November 18, 2014 at 10:35 pm The point of CSI is to convince ignorant laymen that intelligent design has been detected in life so they’ll donate more money to conservative religious propaganda mills like the DI.
cantor
November 19, 2014
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Joe: "Dembski said he has proven that blind and undirected processes cannot produce CSI. That is very different from what keith s says." Really? What peer reviewed scientific journal was this proof presented in? I would love to read it. It will take the world by storm.centrestream
November 19, 2014
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Joe @ 35 - I agree it's artificial, but then so are all other applications of CSI that have been presented! My reason for suggesting it as something to think about was that it might clarify some ideas, in particular that stochastic processes will generate what would seem to be unlikely outcomes. Your comment that it is not stochastic is, I'm afraid, just wrong.Bob O'H
November 19, 2014
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keith s:
Natural processes are incapable of producing CSI by the very definition of CSI.
That is incorrect and demonstrates willful ignorance on keith's part. Dembski said he has proven that blind and undirected processes cannot produce CSI. That is very different from what keith s says. There isn't anything in the definition of CSI that prevents blind and undirected processes from producing it. And keith s can never show otherwise.Joe
November 19, 2014
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Bob:
A couple of us tried to tackle this, by raising the Mabinogion sheep as an example of a process that makes 500 heads likely. Although it’s perhaps artificial, it does show how a stochastic process can lead to a specification.
It's artificial and directed, not stochastic.Joe
November 19, 2014
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According to both Dembski and ID if someone can demonstrate blind and undirected processes producing CSI then a major argument of ID falls- and most likely ID will fall. DEmbski has said that he has proven that blind and undirected processes cannot produce CSI. That means if someone can demonstrate that they can Dembski's proof is shattered. ID also claims that natural selection and similar stochastic processes cannot produce CSI. And that also means if someone can demonstrate that they can produce CSI, ID falls. And if keith s thinks he understands ID arguments, he has yet to demonstrate such an understanding. So far all he has done is misrepresent and mutilate ID arguments.Joe
November 19, 2014
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Forjah.... Nothing can do anything you know that! Don't be silly!Andre
November 19, 2014
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Okay, fair enough....but this is kinda semantics now. Here is what I said with the new understanding.. Also, Dempski does believe random mutation and natural selection CAN create [Information]. It’s a matter of how much, that’s why he gives a 500 bit calculation as the [amount of information needed for something to be defined as CSI]. Meyers does a great job explaining this by blindly taking out letters from a bag and putting them on a board…it is very possible to create words like “in”, “It”, or “one” which are all examples of [information]. It’s HIGHLY UNLIKELY and has never before been seen that random pickings would for instance, produce the last three paragraphs of this response.ForJah
November 19, 2014
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For any specification that we BELIEVE to be beyond the capability of chance/law processes– 500 coins all heads, the first 20 lines of Hamlet, any meaningful English paragraph, etc., etc. – show that belief to be false by showing a chance/law process that has been actually observed creating the specification.
A couple of us tried to tackle this, by raising the Mabinogion sheep as an example of a process that makes 500 heads likely. Although it's perhaps artificial, it does show how a stochastic process can lead to a specification. I think it's unfortunate that Barry didn't want to engage on this - I think looking at processes that might generate patterns with CSI would help move the discussion on.Bob O'H
November 19, 2014
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ForJah:
Also, Dempski does believe random mutation and natural selection CAN create CSI. It’s a matter of how much, that’s why he gives a 500 bit calculation as the limit.
You're repeating vjtorley's mistake from the other thread:
I’m surprised at you, Vincent. You said:
Keith S,
You write: “Natural processes are incapable of producing CSI by the very definition of CSI.”
This, I have to say, is rubbish. As any ID proponent will tell you, natural processes are capable of producing up to 500 bits of CSI.
I have long considered you the most intelligent ID supporter at Uncommon Descent, but this is extremely sloppy of you. CSI never consists of less than 500 bits of specified information. Dembski writes:
Alternatively, since a universal probability bound of 1 in 10^150 corresponds to a universal complexity bound of 500 bits of information, (T,E) constitutes CSI because T subsumes E, T is detachable from E, and T measures at least 500 bits of information. No Free Lunch, p. 144 [Emphasis added]
What is going on around here? First I have to educate Barry about CSI, and now you, of all people? ID proponents: If you’re depending on the critics to teach ID to you, you’re doing it wrong. If you care about ID, then learn about it.
keith s
November 19, 2014
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vjtorley:
I’m perplexed by your continuing to insist that the use of CSI to detect design is circular. The calculation of CSI to detect design is not circular, as I have already shown in my latest post.
Vincent, I think we're closer to agreement on this than you realize. What's circular is an argument that says
1. X exhibits CSI. 2. Therefore we can conclude that X is designed.
It's circular because the calculation you do to determine that X exhibits CSI already shows that X is designed. To say that X exhibits CSI is an unnecessary afterthought, and it isn't required in order to conclude that X is designed. The circularity is explicit here:
1. Do the calculation that shows that X is designed. 2. Conclude that X exhibits CSI. 3. Since X exhibits CSI, conclude that it is designed.
If you omit step 3 and use step 1 to infer design, then the argument is not circular. Are we in agreement? The problem is that many ID proponents want to use the established presence of CSI to conclude that something is designed. That is the circularity that Winston Ewert and I are complaining about. Even Dembski falls into the circularity trap, at least in his earlier writings. The circularity problem is easily fixed (though getting ID proponents to understand the problem is a completely different story!). Unfortunately, there are many other flaws in the CSI concept. I'll be doing an OP at TSZ, hopefully tomorrow, that lists all the flaws of which I am aware.
You also write that you have to consider all possible evolutionary pathways. Now, I’m willing to grant that this might be impractical for a flagellum, or even for a simple cell, but for a 100-amino-acid protein? Come on. Pull the other leg. There’s absolutely no good reason why biochemists couldn’t calculate the odds of a single molecule emerging.
I replied to that same point on the other thread:
You’re forgetting that P(T|H) includes “Darwinian and other material mechanisms”. It’s not enough to calculate the odds of a long protein assembling spontaneously. That was the mistake that Dembski made with the flagellum in No Free Lunch — treating it as a “discrete combinatorial object” instead of considering all possible evolutionary pathways to it.
vjtorley:
I also object to your phrase, “all possible evolutionary pathways.” A more rational criterion would be: “all known evolutionary pathways, after making diligent inquiry.” In real life, we make decisions based on what we know. Of course they’re fallible, but that’s life.
That would be fine, except for this: Dembski claims that his method produces no false positives. He writes:
Only things that are designed had better end up in the net. If this is the case, we can have confidence that whatever the complexity-specification criterion attributes to design is indeed designed. On the other hand, if things end up in the net that are not designed, the criterion will be worthless. I want then to argue that specified complexity is a reliable criterion for detecting design. Alternatively, I want to argue that the complexity-specification criterion successfully avoids false positives. Intelligent Design, pp. 141-142 [Emphasis added]
Dembski has written a check he can't cash. If he can't guarantee that he has accounted for all possible evolutionary pathways, then he can't guarantee that his method avoids false positives. By Dembski's own criterion, his method is "worthless". Vincent:
Finally, you’ve failed to come up with any calculations of your own which refute Dr. Axe’s. I’ve invited you to quote some actual figures from Dr. Andreas Wagner’s latest book which would render the evolution of proteins scientifically plausible, and you haven’t quoted any. I have to say I’m very disappointed.
You're going to have to be a bit more patient. I am carrying on many conversations with many people here at UD, all while leading a busy off-blog life. Barry and the moderators have silently banned some of the ID critics who were helping to shoulder the burden of responding to ID proponents, so more of the burden is falling on me. In the meantime, I hope you'll read Arrival of the Fittest, as I think it will show you what some of Axe's errors are.keith s
November 19, 2014
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I find it quite odd that this discussion is happening here, don't ID peeps know better? OF course the definition of CSI doesn't change if RM + NS were to be able to produce it. In fact it wouldn't even discount ID all together. The only thing that wouldn't be true is that ID no longer provides the only explanation for CSI. ID theorists are defining the very facts of what life and DNA are. Evolutionists are the ones trying to explain how those things came to be, while relying on the ambiguous nature of their definitions. ID provides an excellent framework for exactly what RM + NS needs to explain. It's not like things stop being complex because you can explain how they came to be. Also, Dempski does believe random mutation and natural selection CAN create CSI. It's a matter of how much, that's why he gives a 500 bit calculation as the limit. Meyers does a great job explaining this by blindly taking out letters from a bag and putting them on a board...it is very possible to create words like "in", "It", or "one" which are all examples of CSI. It's HIGHLY UNLIKELY and has never before been seen that random pickings would for instance, produce the last three paragraphs of this response. CSI can meet its match, but it has neither been shown to produce the effect in question NOR provide the best explanation for that effect. Something can't provide a good explanation for an effect, if it has never been shown to produce that effect. :)ForJah
November 19, 2014
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Keith S, I'm perplexed by your continuing to insist that the use of CSI to detect design is circular. The calculation of CSI to detect design is not circular, as I have already shown in my latest post. You also write that you have to consider all possible evolutionary pathways. Now, I'm willing to grant that this might be impractical for a flagellum, or even for a simple cell, but for a 100-amino-acid protein? Come on. Pull the other leg. There's absolutely no good reason why biochemists couldn't calculate the odds of a single molecule emerging. I also object to your phrase, "all possible evolutionary pathways." A more rational criterion would be: "all known evolutionary pathways, after making diligent inquiry." In real life, we make decisions based on what we know. Of course they're fallible, but that's life. Finally, you've failed to come up with any calculations of your own which refute Dr. Axe's. I've invited you to quote some actual figures from Dr. Andreas Wagner’s latest book which would render the evolution of proteins scientifically plausible, and you haven’t quoted any. I have to say I'm very disappointed.vjtorley
November 18, 2014
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Dr. Moose, You ask: "does CSI cease to exist if it can be demonstrated that RM+NS is capable of making it?" My answer is: not necessarily. But you would have to demonstrate that the initial conditions and/or laws in the universe where RM+NS produces this CSI were themselves very unlikely - in other words, that their values were themselves astronomically improbable. In other words, RM+NS can generate astronomically improbable outcomes, but only in a highly rigged cosmos. That would then shift the argument up one level, from biological Intelligent Design to cosmological Intelligent Design (in other words, the fine-tuning argument, except that it would apply to not only the universe's laws and fundamental constants but also its initial conditions).vjtorley
November 18, 2014
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Hi Barry, Thanks for your kind words. I think your last paragraph sums up the issue perfectly:
Here is the flaw in the “by definition” argument. When we designate a pattern as having CSI one of the things we are saying is that based on our current understanding of all chance/law processes, the probability of those processes landing on the specification in question is astronomically low. The probability is not “defined” to be astronomically low. It is believed to be astronomically low. To meet the challenge, all the materialist has to do is demonstrate that that belief is false. When we make a design inference based on the existence of CSI, we are also saying that our best understanding of the cause of the specification is “design.” Another way to meet the challenge is to show that is not the best understanding, because chance/law forces have been observed creating the improbable specification. Nothing about the definition of CSI precludes that demonstration.
vjtorley
November 18, 2014
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The most powerful unguided evolutionary mechanisms responsible for life, beliefs, intelligence, emotions and all that beaten by Adapa, you beat evolution! You inspire me!Andre
November 18, 2014
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In other words Adapa, you are greater than evolution because you beat its beneficial traits that was selected for by Natural selection and random mutation..... Well done you are the most powerful entity in the known universe for beating evolutionary pathways!Andre
November 18, 2014
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Adapa what you have just said is uncalled for....... If evolution is true as you suppose and religious belief is an effect of evolution then you claiming you broke free from the shackles of religion that evolution created, it then means you are an effect that is greater than its cause....... In this cause and effect universe it is simply impossible.......Andre
November 18, 2014
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wd400 So, I’ll ask again. What’s the point of CSI? The point of CSI isn't to detect intelligent design in life. The point of CSI is to convince ignorant laymen that intelligent design has been detected in life so they'll donate more money to conservative religious propaganda mills like the DI.Adapa
November 18, 2014
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Cantor and Mung, I was attempting to make Barry about what his statements imply. The point here is that one's belief persimably comes from some estimate of the probability of a result coming about from the same chance hypothesis CSI is meant (is some folks telling at least) to test the limits of. So, I'll ask again. What's the point of CSI?wd400
November 18, 2014
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1 wd400 November 18, 2014 at 11:09 am And how to [sic] you get to your BELIEF that a configuration is beyond what chance/law can do?
And how do you get to your BELIEF that a configuration is not beyond what chance/law can do? .cantor
November 18, 2014
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13 Adapa November 18, 2014 at 6:36 pm What in the world is a “materialist” forum?
Don't play dumb. You don't need to.cantor
November 18, 2014
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wd400:
And how to you get to your BELIEF that a configuration is beyond what chance/law can do?
*sigh* really? Are you so new to the ID debate, wd400? I have to believe you don't work for a casino.Mung
November 18, 2014
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Moose Dr:
Please, people, does CSI cease to exist if it can be demonstrated that RM+NS is capable of making it? If so, why?)
The model that came from discussion in another thread should be able to compare a standard (per Darwinian theory) Evolutionary Algorithm to an Intelligence Algorithm that (per ID Lab model and Theory of Intelligent Design) has "mutation hotspots" to control purposely taken guesses (no left up to "chance" errors). I would expect the EA to show what happens when a genetic model has messed up error correction and a nonfunctional Confidence (central hedonic) system needed to (self-learn) be intelligent (and for any genetic model to properly account for hotspots, etc.). Where the EA is kept to the bare minimum required by Darwinian theory (functional hotspots and such are ignored) I would expect it to represent the "chance" variable used for calculating CSI. All in addition to that (only possible by intelligence) should be the CSI. The only CSI from RM+NS should be whatever feeble amount of intelligence the EA programmer managed to generate that way. In this case complexity would increase as Address and Data bus bits (required to model a given system) are added. Addressing complexity depends on the amount of sensory input addressing memory, while Data complexity depends on how many bits are needed to specify output actions.Gary S. Gaulin
November 18, 2014
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