Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

The $68,584 Question

Categories
Intelligent Design
Share
Facebook
Twitter/X
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

There is such a thing as a professional “ethicist,” and as of this writing the median annual income of a clinical ethicist is $68,584. Here is one job description for such a position:

Offers guidance to patients, their families, and professional staff on ethical, legal and policy issues and concerns stemming from clinical interactions between health care professionals and patients. Provides guidance to the institutional ethics committee pertaining to policy formulation and educational and case review activities. Develops institutional policies concerning ethical issues such as “do-not-resuscitate” and “withdrawal of life-support”. Requires a master’s degree or doctorate related to health ethics and at least 5 years of experience in the field.

I can understand how a theist who believes in the objective reality of ethical norms could apply for such a position in good faith. By definition he believes certain actions are really wrong and other actions are really right, and therefore he often has something meaningful to say.

My question is how could a materialist apply for such a position in good faith? After all, for the materialist there is really no satisfactory answer to Arthur Leff’s “grand sez who” question that we have discussed on these pages before. See here for Philip Johnson’s informative take on the issue.

After all, when pushed to the wall to ground his ethical opinions in anything other than his personal opinion, the materialist ethicist has nothing to say. Why should I pay someone $68,584 to say there is no real ultimate ethical difference between one moral response and another because they must both lead ultimately to the same place – nothingness.

I am not being facetious here. I really do want to know why someone would pay someone to give them the “right answer” when that person asserts that the word “right” is ultimately meaningless.

Comments
K: "A_B, in addition to persisting in a strawman misrepresentation of the grounding of morality on evo mat issue in the OP, you have gone on to the “theists are bad people” argument" I don't know what you are reading because at no point did I say that theists are bad people. I just said that atheist are no better, nor worse, than theists. But I like that you were able to bring all of the creationist buzz words (ad hominems, red herring, straw man) into one sentence. Mung: "Why ought anyone even bother to attempt to provide you with an answer to that question?" Personally, I don't care one way or the other. But since it was essentially the obverse of the question that Barry was asking, I don't see where your objection is coming from.Acartia_bogart
September 4, 2014
September
09
Sep
4
04
2014
07:29 PM
7
07
29
PM
PST
in addition to persisting in a strawman misrepresentation of the grounding of morality on evo mat issue in the OP, you have gone on to the “theists are bad people” argument, in short you led a red herring across the track pointing to inconvenient truth, dragged it off to a strawman soaked in ad hominems and proceeded to try to set it alight to cloud, confuse, polarise and poison the atmosphere. Predictable, sadly predictable. You have only succeeded in underscoring the force of the point, which is evidently so unwelcome you will resort to any means to draw attention away from it. Let us know when you have a cogent answer to what prof Provine inadvertently implied.
!!!Dionisio
September 4, 2014
September
09
Sep
4
04
2014
07:26 PM
7
07
26
PM
PST
Arcatia_bogart, can you provide any reason why any theist ought to respond to your questions? What are you going to appeal to, other than your own personal preference?Mung
September 4, 2014
September
09
Sep
4
04
2014
06:55 PM
6
06
55
PM
PST
Is a morality that boils down to subjective, personal preference really something worth arguing about? One wonders why materialists bother. Do they also try to talk people out of their favorite color or flavor of ice cream?William J Murray
September 4, 2014
September
09
Sep
4
04
2014
06:49 PM
6
06
49
PM
PST
Arcatia_bogart:
So, one more try. Why is the average theist’s ethical and moral standards better (more objective) than the average atheist’s?
Why ought anyone even bother to attempt to provide you with an answer to that question? I tried, you poo poo'd it. So you can't say no one even tried. But you never answered why anyone should even bother. Instead, you resorted to ad hominem. Not that you, with your superior moral values, should care about that! Arcatia_bogart:
Of, more significantly, why is this concept important to theists? It only important to a theist because it allows them the false perception of moral superiority over atheists. If this allows you to sleep better at night, go for it.
Yes, and it is obvious that it is utterly unimportant to you. Which explains why you keep harping on it. Sleep well. It's important to theist's because it demonstrates quite clearly how atheists are liars and hypocrites. And everyone, of course, wants to know why atheists ought not be portrayed as liars and hypocrites. Do you have some objective reason why atheists/materialists should not be branded as lairs and hypocrites and child abusers?Mung
September 4, 2014
September
09
Sep
4
04
2014
06:45 PM
6
06
45
PM
PST
A_B, in addition to persisting in a strawman misrepresentation of the grounding of morality on evo mat issue in the OP, you have gone on to the "theists are bad people" argument, in short you led a red herring across the track pointing to inconvenient truth, dragged it off to a strawman soaked in ad hominems and proceeded to try to set it alight to cloud, confuse, polarise and poison the atmosphere. Predictable, sadly predictable. You have only succeeded in underscoring the force of the point, which is evidently so unwelcome you will resort to any means to draw attention away from it. Let us know when you have a cogent answer to what prof Provine inadvertently implied. KFkairosfocus
September 4, 2014
September
09
Sep
4
04
2014
06:24 PM
6
06
24
PM
PST
F/N: Plato, c 360 BC, in The Laws Bk X, was dead on target about the foundations and implications of an evo mat worldview:
>> Ath. . . . [[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that fire and water, and earth and air [[i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art, and that as to the bodies which come next in order-earth, and sun, and moon, and stars-they have been created by means of these absolutely inanimate existences. The elements are severally moved by chance and some inherent force according to certain affinities among them-of hot with cold, or of dry with moist, or of soft with hard, and according to all the other accidental admixtures of opposites which have been formed by necessity. After this fashion and in this manner the whole heaven has been created, and all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only. [[In short, evolutionary materialism premised on chance plus necessity acting without intelligent guidance on primordial matter is hardly a new or a primarily "scientific" view! Notice also, the trichotomy of causal factors: (a) chance/accident, (b) mechanical necessity of nature, (c) art or intelligent design and direction.] . . . . [[Thus, they hold that t]he Gods exist not by nature, but by art, and by the laws of states, which are different in different places, according to the agreement of those who make them; and that the honourable is one thing by nature and another thing by law, and that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.- [[Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT. (Cf. here for Locke's views and sources on a very different base for grounding liberty as opposed to license and resulting anarchistic "every man does what is right in his own eyes" chaos leading to tyranny. )] These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might [[ Evolutionary materialism leads to the promotion of amorality], and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [[Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality "naturally" leads to continual contentions and power struggles; cf. dramatisation here], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is, to live in real dominion over others [[such amoral factions, if they gain power, "naturally" tend towards ruthless tyranny], and not in legal subjection to them. >>
2300 years ago, the matter was clear. Hasn't changed since. Only difference, is, we have implanted consciences [which if not systematically misled, warped, besotted or benumbed point us to duty] that in turn speaks to our being under Law. Thence the Who who Sez aright, with the right to say so. But also, as creatures with responsible freedom, we may choose a-wrong. Hence, the perennial challenge to acknowledge and turn from the wrong towards the right. KFkairosfocus
September 4, 2014
September
09
Sep
4
04
2014
06:18 PM
6
06
18
PM
PST
Mung: "First, you are asking for a reason, but you cannot provide any reason why anyone ought to provide you with a reason while at the same time projecting to theists that they are somehow deficient for failing to give you a reason." I'm sure that this makes sense to somebody. No, I change my mind. This doesn't make sense to anybody. I really have to start drinking at noon like you do. Maybe, then, this will make sense. But probably not. So, one more try. Why is the average theist's ethical and moral standards better (more objective) than the average atheist's? Of, more significantly, why is this concept important to theists? It only important to a theist because it allows them the false perception of moral superiority over atheists. If this allows you to sleep better at night, go for it.Acartia_bogart
September 4, 2014
September
09
Sep
4
04
2014
06:05 PM
6
06
05
PM
PST
BA: Pausing for a moment, it is refreshing to see the directness of Prof Wm B Provine in his well known 1998 Darwin Day address at U Tenn:
Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent . . . . The first 4 implications are so obvious to modern naturalistic evolutionists that I will spend little time defending them. Human free will, however, is another matter. Even evolutionists have trouble swallowing that implication. I will argue that humans are locally determined systems that make choices. They have, however, no free will . . .
This is a double whammy. First, the denial of a foundation for ethics per evo mat is openly declared. Where, post Hume's Guillotine and rhetorical "surpriz'd" at IS and OUGHT, the only place to find a foundation for OUGHT is in a worldview foundation IS that is inherently moral and grounding of OUGHT. There is little reason to think that electrons, protons, Neutrons, photons etc are such, nor a blind chance and necessity driven process held to move from hydrogen to hairless apes. (There is but one serious candidate to be such an OUGHT, the inherently good Creator God, a maximally great and necessary being. Hence the famous words in the 2nd para of the US DOI, that certain morally freighted truths are self evident, that men are created equal and are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness . . . ) Secondly, absent genuine, responsible freedom, we cannot be moral. Or for that matter, reasonable, rational and genuinely knowing. And of course the general consensus on the binding nature of ought is merely a delusion foisted on us by a blind evolutionary chain of RV + NS --> DWM aka "Evolution," then we are facing a general delusion claim. That undermines the reliability and capacity of rational and responsible thought on such premises. Including, necessarily -- but consistency or coherence is not a noted intellectual virtue of evolutionism -- evo mat. More of the inescapable incoherence of evolutionary materialism. Courtesy, RV + NS --> DWM, aka "Evolution" KFkairosfocus
September 4, 2014
September
09
Sep
4
04
2014
06:03 PM
6
06
03
PM
PST
Well, well done theists! You've subjectively chosen to follow the perhaps existent purported author of / knower of objective morality. Unless you're part of that sect that got bits wrong. Or those *other* theists. Mung: "but you’re probably not interested in logical fallacies, because you have no reason why you ought not engage in fallacious reasoning. Q2) Why are objective values (aka theist values) better than subjective values (aka atheist values)?" Would begging the question be one of those fallacies, Mung?rich
September 4, 2014
September
09
Sep
4
04
2014
06:00 PM
6
06
00
PM
PST
drc466:
You are certainly correct that YEC’s place the literal interpretation of the Bible above any interpretation of scientific data.
But why? It could be because the Spirit was the source of the inspired writings, but was it not also the Spirit that moved over the face of the waters? The inspired text was inspired, but the inspired creation was not inspired. How so?Mung
September 4, 2014
September
09
Sep
4
04
2014
05:26 PM
5
05
26
PM
PST
Arcatia_bogart:
So, please, tell me again how theist values are objective and somehow better than an atheist’s.
Why? Why do you even care? Do you even know what you're asking for? First, you are asking for a reason, but you cannot provide any reason why anyone ought to provide you with a reason while at the same time projecting to theists that they are somehow deficient for failing to give you a reason.
So, please, tell me again how theist values are objective and somehow better than an atheist’s.
So, please, tell us theists what makes anything objective? Better yet, tell us theists why "objective" is better than "not objective (whatever that may mean)." Or are you a subjectivist?
So, please, tell me again how theist values are objective and somehow better than an atheist’s.
You've conflated separate issues. Basically you're a sophist. Anyone reading your posts here for any amount of time can see that. So your questions are: Q1) How is it that some values can be objective and other values can be subjective? See how this has nothing to do with who believes or has those values? There is no such thing as "theist values" and there is no such thing as "atheist values." but you're probably not interested in logical fallacies, because you have no reason why you ought not engage in fallacious reasoning. Q2) Why are objective values (aka theist values) better than subjective values (aka atheist values)? The question ought to answer itself. Q3) Why are some values better than others? The question ought to answer itself.Mung
September 4, 2014
September
09
Sep
4
04
2014
05:20 PM
5
05
20
PM
PST
ba77 @65, You are certainly correct that YEC's place the literal interpretation of the Bible above any interpretation of scientific data. In my defense, you did offer up that you felt OEC better fit Theism, an explicitly ideological point. If it will help, I will drop my first 4 points, and leave the 5th - even if you accept your premise, it does not provide evidence for 4.5Byr over 6 days. Then my point becomes a very limited one that your evidence for the ability to "reach back in time" doesn't necessarily provide any indication of how long that time period is. BTW, I enjoy your posts even when I don't always agree with them - I think we find lots of common ground, but the supremacy of OEC v YEC based on the studies of QM isn't going to be an example :).drc466
September 4, 2014
September
09
Sep
4
04
2014
04:59 PM
4
04
59
PM
PST
"What you don’t understand is that we already know that you have no basis. We are amused by the fact that you don’t know it." I'm not amused by it, I think it's pathetic. Who was it who said, "know thyself"?Mung
September 4, 2014
September
09
Sep
4
04
2014
04:51 PM
4
04
51
PM
PST
Barry, I am morally opposed to you banning atheists/materialists from posting here, but for the life of me I don't know why. After all, you aren't really banning them. You're just making it so that certain words don't appear here that have their origin from some ip address or other. But lest we forget, the only thing worse than a hypocritical atheist is a hypocritical Christian. Again, I have no idea why that is true, but I am sure it is. I'm sure our atheist friends would agree, but I'm not sure why.Mung
September 4, 2014
September
09
Sep
4
04
2014
04:49 PM
4
04
49
PM
PST
Arcadia_Bogart, You keep proving the point of the post. Each time someone asks you to provide the basis for your morality, you evade the issue. What you don't understand is that we already know that you have no basis. We are amused by the fact that you don't know it.StephenB
September 4, 2014
September
09
Sep
4
04
2014
04:28 PM
4
04
28
PM
PST
Anthropic: "AB 66, on what basis do you tell an Islamist that crushing homosexuals to death under a heavy wall is wrong?" By the same basis that I tell a Christian that crushing a "witch" to death under a heavy rock is wrong. So, please, tell me again how theist values are objective and somehow better than an atheist's.Acartia_bogart
September 4, 2014
September
09
Sep
4
04
2014
04:13 PM
4
04
13
PM
PST
Meanwhile, Arcatia_bogart still has no clue as to why not being able to think of any morals/ethics that are uniquely theistic fails as a criticism of the theistic position and in fact supports the theistic position.Mung
September 4, 2014
September
09
Sep
4
04
2014
04:01 PM
4
04
01
PM
PST
AB 66, on what basis do you tell an Islamist that crushing homosexuals to death under a heavy wall is wrong? On what basis do you tell a wife beater he is doing evil? On what basis do you tell a racist that they are immoral for condemning interracial relationships? You surely are revolted by what ISIS is doing: Rape & sexual slavery for women, beheading Christian children, crucifying Muslims who disagree with their ideology. But if you were to say to them that what they do is wrong, they can simply respond, "Sez who?" "Who are you to tell us what is right and wrong?" As Arthur Leff knew, without an unevaluated evaluator there is no way to convincingly demonstrate a basis for morality or law. Even when we know something is wrong, we have no grounding for that belief, and hence no right to tell others to stop it. Of course, we still do, even materialists, as you have just demonstrated. We are moral beings and believe in objective moral standards, no matter how much we deny it. The difference is that theists have a warrant for objective moral standards, while materialists do not.anthropic
September 4, 2014
September
09
Sep
4
04
2014
03:37 PM
3
03
37
PM
PST
DavidS: "The materialist world hates traditional values and traditional lifestyles in general." Which traditional values are you talking about? The traditional value that it was OK to persecute homosexuals? The traditional value that the wife was subservient to the husband? The traditional value that 'sinners' should be shunned? The traditional value that interracial and interfaith relationships were wrong? Traditional values have never been carved in stone, unless you believe that Moses dude. But since nobody else saw what was written on those tablets, I guess we have to take his word for it.Acartia_bogart
September 4, 2014
September
09
Sep
4
04
2014
02:36 PM
2
02
36
PM
PST
In defense, I note that I appealed directly to scientific evidence to support the plausibility of my OEC position and you appealed to biblical exegesis.,,, I disagree with your biblical exegesis! I'm not going to debate YECs on their interpretation of the bible. IMHO, it is a useless endeavor since, as far as I can tell, their personal interpretation of the bible comes way before the scientific evidence for an old earth does. As to common ground in scientific evidence where we may find agreement, Dr. Paul Giem, a YEC, recently made this video on Quantum Mechanics: Quantum Weirdness and God 8-9-2014 by Paul Giem - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=N7HHz14tS1c#t=1449 I suggest that YECs would have a much easier time procecuting their case for God if they dropped trying to force fit General Relativity into a 6000 year framework and focused on the 'weirdness' of Quantum mechanics that everyone accepts. Lecture 11: Decoherence and Hidden Variables - Scott Aaronson Excerpt: "Look, we all have fun ridiculing the creationists who think the world sprang into existence on October 23, 4004 BC at 9AM (presumably Babylonian time), with the fossils already in the ground, light from distant stars heading toward us, etc. But if we accept the usual picture of quantum mechanics, then in a certain sense the situation is far worse: the world (as you experience it) might as well not have existed 10^-43 seconds ago!" http://www.scottaaronson.com/democritus/lec11.htmlbornagain77
September 4, 2014
September
09
Sep
4
04
2014
12:13 PM
12
12
13
PM
PST
(O/T) A brief YEC response to ba77 @53:
I hold that the OEC position is more consistent towards Theism than the YEC position is in regards to the ontological status of morality.
Some problems with the idea of eternal existence of death due to man's sin affecting all of space-time: 1) Contradicts plain reading of scripture (Rom 5:12 et. al.) 2) Contradicts tone/tense of rest of curse (Gen 3) 3) Comes perilously close to denying Adam had free will 4) Contradicts cause/effect basis of the Law (eye before an eye?) 5) Even if true, no reason to prefer 4.5Byr over 6 daysdrc466
September 4, 2014
September
09
Sep
4
04
2014
11:50 AM
11
11
50
AM
PST
anthropic #61 Yes, that's the atheistic dilemma. Certain actions are considered immoral but there's no way to validate that. As the wikipedia article quotes:
I will put the current situation as sharply as possible: there is today no way of ‘proving’ that napalming babies is bad except by asserting it (in a louder and louder voice), or by defining it as so, early in one’s game, and then later slipping it through, in a whisper, as a conclusion.
Silver Asiatic
September 4, 2014
September
09
Sep
4
04
2014
09:40 AM
9
09
40
AM
PST
DavidD @ 60. I found the Slate piece amusing in a sad way. In our house my wife does ZERO cooking. If the stove is turned on one can be sure I am the one standing in front of it. My wife, of course, does other chores. Laundry, for example, is her exclusive province into which I am forbidden to step. In lambasting a stereotype, Marcotte has herself stereotyped. As I said, amusing in a sad way.Barry Arrington
September 4, 2014
September
09
Sep
4
04
2014
09:33 AM
9
09
33
AM
PST
Silver Asiatic 56 You said: "Arthur Leff’s “grand sez who” question According to Leff, there is no way to determine if there are any real moral values at all, and no way to assess them as good or bad. In his view, “napalming babies” is an act with no moral value good or bad." Actually, Leff condemned napalming babies as immoral, as well as certain other acts. But he freely acknowledged that there was no grounding for these moral intuitions, since with God gone any human made system of right & wrong could be met with "sez who." That was the dilemma: We need an unevaluated evaluator to give grounding to our (correct) moral intuitions, but with God off the scene no such entity is available.anthropic
September 4, 2014
September
09
Sep
4
04
2014
09:09 AM
9
09
09
AM
PST
The materialist world hates traditional values and traditional lifestyles in general. Here is a piece by Feminist Amanda Marcotte who is a Brooklyn-based writer, DoubleX contributor. She also writes regularly for the Daily Beast, AlterNet, and USA Today. She slammed the traditional Home Cooked Dinner in this piece: http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/09/03/home_cooked_family_dinners_a_major_burden_for_working_mothers.html?wpsrc=fol_tw Here is Virginia Farmer Joel Salatin's response to her slam of traditional family values: http://www.motherearthnews.com/real-food/slate-family-dinner-zb0z1409zsie.aspx#axzz3CMWDucey -DavidD
September 4, 2014
September
09
Sep
4
04
2014
09:05 AM
9
09
05
AM
PST
A_C #1 'Barry, please explain to me why a person without any theistic beliefs cannot have any ethics? Yes, in a random sampling of atheists you will have a wide variation in ethical understandings. I accept this. But in a random sampling of theists you will get the same thing.' The first point you seek to make in your first post to this thread - anyone's post to it - is palpably false. Theists (and their religions and churches), however, individually idiosyncratic in their beliefs will share much more common beliefs, really, by definition within the religions and between them, than atheists among themselves. In that sense the jibe we often make that atheists have their own perverse, often fundamentalist (in a negative sense) religion is a naughty hyperbole. Creating an atheist religion would be like herding cats. All they agree on is what they don't like or want... and we know what that is - which brings me to my next point. Little Albert in the video-clip provided I believe by BA, pointed out much the same thing to his teacher, about cold being the absence of heat, and darkness of light. Can't remember what religious point his teacher was making, but it was on that theme; I know God's sustaining love was in the punch-line. It is moreover akin to Aquinas' point about sin's being the absence of virtue. However, it is also important to realise the significance of the derivation of the term, religion - from the latin to bind: 'religere'. Even in their diversity, theists are commonly bound, at least in principle, to hold to certain tenets of belief; whereas for the atheist, that would be almost anathema. Ethics, morality are an ad hoc, anecdotal matter, a continual work in progress/regress, alternation, whatever, because purely personal. To us, theists, freedom' involves responsibilities; to atheists, in principle, and notwithstanding their burblings to the contrary, they want to feel free to exploit the free will God gave them to the fullest, in anywhichway they like. Or if they don't, they won't agree on the boundaries. In our post Christian society, the churches' Gospel message has no doubt become increasingly blurred by liberals, although that is itself in response to the alignment of the conservatives with the well-heeled, to the detriment of the poorer folk - this, in flat contradiction to the burden of scripture in both the Old and New Testaments. Nevertheless, enough of it still underpins even our society's informal ethos of shared beliefs to suggest that the mustard plant of Christianity has not entirely been starved of nutrients. Indeed, surely, the atheists' own potentially ever-changing landscape of personal beliefs will draw quite heavily on, for example, the Ten Commandments - but as aliens, temporary visitors to them - not liable for 'conscription into the military' or 'taxation' or any kind of 'imposts', or obligations of any kind. BA: Genesis, Quantum Physics and Reality Excerpt: Simply put, an experiment on Earth can be made in such a way that it determines if one photon comes along either on the right or the left side or if it comes (as a wave) along both sides of the gravitational lens (of the galaxy) at the same time. However, how could the photons have known billions of years ago that someday there would be an earth with inhabitants on it, making just this experiment? ,,, This is big trouble for the multi-universe theory and for the “hidden-variables” approach. http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2.....r.html.ori It's reminiscent of the theory (or rather, 'untimely insight') of a theorist apparently much admired by Einstein, that the light from a star in a distant galaxy must have known there would be an observer to observe it, before setting out on its path to his eyes, all those billions of light years away. I think it may be bound up with (or, rather, vice versa) my assertion that light or its agency must possess divine omniscience and omnipotence, in order for it to always hit an observer at its absolute speed.Axel
September 4, 2014
September
09
Sep
4
04
2014
08:30 AM
8
08
30
AM
PST
Incredibly enlightening, reading through all these posts. Arcatia_bogart:
All of these holier than thou attitudes against atheists but nobody has asked the difficult question. Do theists act more ethically than atheists?
That's not the difficult question. Arcatia_bogart:
Can you think of any morals/ethics that are uniquely theistic?
A_b scores yet another point for the theists.Mung
September 4, 2014
September
09
Sep
4
04
2014
08:19 AM
8
08
19
AM
PST
Re A-B @ 1 , . . . opening words in the very first coment:
Barry, please explain to me why a person without any theistic beliefs cannot have any ethics?
Notice, what BA ACTUALLY stated, the issue of grounding in light of the IS-OUGHT gap:
My question is how could a materialist apply for such a position in good faith? After all, for the materialist there is really no satisfactory answer to Arthur Leff’s “grand sez who” question that we have discussed on these pages before. See here for Philip Johnson’s informative take on the issue. After all, when pushed to the wall to ground his ethical opinions in anything other than his personal opinion, the materialist ethicist has nothing to say. Why should I pay someone $68,584 to say there is no real ultimate ethical difference between one moral response and another because they must both lead ultimately to the same place – nothingness. I am not being facetious here. I really do want to know why someone would pay someone to give them the “right answer” when that person denies that the word “right” is ultimately meaningless.
Notice, BA's emphasis on grounding. If this were a first time problem, I would say it is a matter of misreading, but in fact it is a STANDARD tactic of materialists to twist the issue of grounding of ethics into how dare you say we cannot behave ethically. The issue of ethical breakdown IS important, when the grounding of ethics is undermined in a culture, but the grounding question cannot be properly brushed aside by twisting it into something it is not. Indeed, this sort of persistent strawman tactic illustrates exactly the undermining of ethical standards that the question of want of grounding raises. And, I would think grounding is always a pivotal issue, for any serious discussion or praxis. KFkairosfocus
September 4, 2014
September
09
Sep
4
04
2014
08:10 AM
8
08
10
AM
PST
AB @ 34
“Nobody, including theists, can objectively demonstrate that anybody’s morality is superior than anybody else’s.”
Rich #44
Did I miss the part where you showed it to be false? Would you mind going through it again?
You first have to accept that there is such a thing as "morality". AB has been firm in his acceptance of that. The other option was referenced in the OP: Arthur Leff’s “grand sez who” question According to Leff, there is no way to determine if there are any real moral values at all, and no way to assess them as good or bad. In his view, "napalming babies" is an act with no moral value good or bad. So, to prove something about morality, you have to start with the existence of morality. You accept that morality exists for some reason. It can't be a physical object that you measure because nobody has that object called "morals". It's an intellectual concept and therefore is proven by different means than by physical science.Silver Asiatic
September 4, 2014
September
09
Sep
4
04
2014
06:50 AM
6
06
50
AM
PST
1 3 4 5 6 7

Leave a Reply