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The amazing level of engineering in the transition to the vertebrate proteome: a global analysis

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As a follow-up to my previous post:

I am presenting here some results obtained by a general application, expanded to the whole human proteome, of the procedure already introduced in that post.

Main assumptions.

The aim of the procedure is to measure a well defined equivalent of functional information in proteins: the information that is conserved throughout long evolutionary times, in a well specified evolutionary line.

The simple assumption is that  such information, which is not modified by neutral variation in a time span of hundreds of million years, is certainly highly functionally constrained, and is therefore a very good empirical approximation of the value of functional information in a protein.

In particular, I will use the proteins in the human proteome as “probes” to measure the information that is conserved from different evolutionary timepoints.

The assumption here is very simple. Let’s say that the line that includes humans (let’s call it A) splits from some different line (let’s call it B) at some evolutionary timepoint T. Then, the homology that we observe in a protein when we compare organisms derived from B  and humans (derived from A) must have survived neutral variation throughout the timespan from T to now. If the timespan is long enough, we can very safely assume that the measured homology is a measure of some specific functional information conserved from the time of the split to now.

Procedure.

I downloaded a list of the basic human proteome (in FASTA form). In particular, I downloaded it from UNIPROT selecting all human reviewed sequences, for a total of 20171 sequences. That is a good approximation of the basic human  proteome as known at present.

I used NCBI’s blast tool in local form to blast the whole human proteome against known protein sequences from specific groups of organisms, using the nr (non redundant) NCBI database of protein sequences, and selecting, for each human protein, the alignment with the highest homology bitscore from that group of organisms.

Homology values:

I have used two different measures of homology for each protein alignment:

  1. The total bitscore from the BLAST alignment (from now on: “bits”)
  2. The ratio of the total bitscore to the length in aminoacids of the human protein, that I have called “bits per aminoacid” (from now on, “baa”). This is a measure of the mean “density” of functional information in that protein, which corrects for the protein length.

The values of homology in bits have a very wide range of variation  in each specific comparison with a group of organisms. For example, in the comparison between human proteins and the proteins in cartilaginous fish, the range of bit homology per protein is 21.6 – 34368, with a mean of 541.4 and a median of 376 bits.

The vlaues of homology in baa , instead, are necessarily confined between 0 and about 2.2. 2.2, indeed, is (approximately) the highest homology bitscore (per aminoacid) that we get when we blast a protein against itself (total identity).  I use the BLAST bitscore because it is a widely used and accepted way to measure homology and to derive probabilities from it (the E values).

So, for example, in the same human – cartilaginous fish comparison, the range of the baa values is:  0.012 – 2.126, with a mean of 0.95 and a median of 0.97 baas.

For each comparison, a small number of proteins (usually about 1-2%) did not result in any significant alignment, and were not included in the specific analysis for that comparison.

Organism categories and split times:

The analysis includes the following groups of organisms:

  • Cnidaria
  • Cephalopoda (as a representative sample of Mollusca, and more in general Protostomia: cephalopoda and more generally Mollusca, are, among Protostomia, a group with highest homology to deuterostomia, and therefore can be a good sample to evaluate conservation from the protostomia – deuterostomia split).
  • Deuterostomia (excluding vertebrates): this includes echinoderms, hemichordates and chordates (excluding vertebrates).
  • Cartilaginous fish
  • Bony fish
  • Amphibians
  • Crocodylia, including crocodiles and alligators (as a representative sample of reptiles, excluding birds. Here again, crocodylia have usually the highest homology with human proteins among reptiles, together maybe with turtles).
  • Marsupials (an infraclass of mammals representing Metatheria, a clade which split early enough from the human lineage)
  • Afrotheria, including elephants and other groups (representing a group of mammals relatively distant from the human lineage, in the Eutheria clade)

There are reasons for these choices, but I will not discuss them in detail for the moment. The main purpose is always to detect the functional information (in form of homology) that was present at specific split times, and has been therefore conserved in both lines after the split. In a couple of cases (Protostomia, Reptiles), I have used a smaller group (Cephalopoda, Crocodylia) which could reasonably represent the wider group, because using very big groups of sequences (like all protostomia, for example) was too time consuming for my resources.

So what are the split times we are considering? This is a very difficult question, because split times are not well known, and very often you can get very different values for them from different sources. Moreover, I am not at all an expert of these issues.

So, the best I can do is to give here some reasonable proposal, from what I have found, but I am completely open to any suggestions to improve my judgements. In each split, humans derive from the second line:

  • Cnidaria – Bilateria. Let’s say at least 555 My ago.
  • Protostomia – deuterostomia.  Let’s say about 530 My ago.
  • Pre-vertebrate deuterostomia (including chordates like cephalocordata and Tunicates) – Vertebrates  (Cartilaginous fish). Let’s say 440 My ago.
  • Cartilaginous fish – Bony fish. Let’s say about 410 My ago.
  • Bony fish – Tetrapods (Amphibians). Let’s say 370 My ago, more or less.
  • Amphibians – Amniota (Sauropsida, Crocodylia): about 340 My ago
  • Sauropsida (Crocodylia) – Synapsida (Metatheria, Marsupialia): about 310 My ago
  • Metatheria – Eutheria (Afrotheria): about 150 My ago
  • Atlantogenata (Afrotheria) – Boreoeutheria: probably about 100 My ago.

The simple rule is: for each split, the second member of each split is the line to humans, and the human conserved information present in the first member of each couple must have been conserved in both lines at least from the time of the split to present day.

So, for example, the human-conserved information in Cnidaria has been conserved for at least 555 MY, the human-conserved information in Crocodylia has been conserved for at least 310 My, and so on.

The problem of redundancy (repeated information).

However, there is an important problem that requires attention. Not all the information in the human proteome is unique, in the sense of “present only once”. Many sequences, especially domains, are repeated many times, in more or less similar way, in many different proteins. Let’s call this “the problem of redundancy”.

So, all the results that we obtain about homologies of the human proteome to some other organism or group of organisms should be corrected for that factor, if we want to draw conclusions about the real amount of new functional information in a transition. Of course, repeated information will inflate the apparent amount of new functional information.

Therefore, I computed a “coefficient of correction for redundancy” for each protein in the human proteome. For the moment, for the sake of simplicity, I will not go into the details of that computation, but I am ready to discuss it in depth if anyone is interested.

The interesting result is that the mean coefficient of correction is, according to my computations, 0.497. IOWs, we can say that about half of the potential information present in the human proteome can be considered unique, while about half can be considered as repeated information. This correction takes into account, for each protein in the human proteome, the number of proteins in the human proteome that have significant homologies to that protein and their mean homology.

So, when I give the results “corrected for redundancy” what I mean is that the homology values for each protein have been corrected multiplying them for the coefficient of that specific protein. Of course, in general, the results will be approximately halved.

Results

Table 1 shows the means of the values of total homology (bitscore) with human proteins in bits and in bits per aminoacid for the various groups of organisms.

 

Group of organisms Homology bitscore

(mean)

Total homology

bitscore

Bits per aminoacid

(mean)

Cnidaria 276.9 5465491 0.543
Cephalopoda 275.6 5324040 0.530
Deuterostomia (non vertebrates) 357.6 7041769 0.671
Cartilaginous fish 541.4 10773387 0.949
Bony fish 601.5 11853443 1.064
Amphibians 630.4 12479403 1.107
Crocodylia 706.2 13910052 1.217
Marsupialia 777.5 15515530 1.354
Afrotheria 936.2 18751656 1.629
Maximum possible value (for identity) 24905793 2.2

 

Figure 1 shows a plot of the mean bits-per-aminoacid score in the various groups of organisms, according to the mentioned approximate times of split.

Figure 2 shows a plot of the density distribution of human-conserved functional information in the various groups of organisms.

 

 

 

The jump to vertebrates.

Now, let’s see how big are the informational jumps for each split, always in relation to human conserved information.

The following table sums up the size of each jump:

 

 

 

 

Split Homology bitscore jump (mean) Total homology bitscore jump Bits per aminoacid (mean)
Homology bits in Cnidaria 5465491 0.54
Cnidaria – Bilateria (cephalopoda) -6.3 -121252 -0.02
Protostomia (Cephalopoda)- Deuterostomia 87.9 1685550 0.15
Deuterostomia (non vert.) – Vertebrates (Cartilaginous fish) 189.6 3708977 0.29
Cartilaginous fish-Bony fish 54.9 1073964 0.11
Bony fish-Tetrapoda (Amphibians) 31.9 624344 0.05
Amphibians-Amniota (Crocodylia) 73.3 1430963 0.11
Sauropsida (Crocodylia)-Synapsida (Marsupialia) 80.8 1585361 0.15
Metatheria (Marsupialia) – Eutheria (Afrotheria) 162.2 3226932 0.28
Total bits of homology in Afrotheria 18751656 1.63
Total bits of maximum information in  humans 24905793 2.20

 

The same jumps are shown graphically in Figure 3:

 

As everyone can see, each of these splits, except the first one (Cnidaria-Bilateria) is characterized by a very relevant informational jumps in terms of human-conserved information. The split is in general of the order of 0.5 – 1.5 million bits.

However, two splits are characterized by a much bigger jump: the prevertebrate-vertebrate split reaches 3.7 million bits, while the Methateria-Eutheria split is very near, with 3.2 million bits.

For the moment I will discuss only the prevertebrate-vertebrate jump.

This is where a great part of the functional information present in humans seems to have been generated: 3.7 million bits, and about 0.29 bits per aminoacid of new functional information.

Let’s see that jump also in terms of information density, looking again at Figure 2, but only with the first 4 groups of organisms:

 

Where is the jump here?

 

We can see that the density distribution is almost identical for Cnidaria and Cephalopoda. Deuterostomia (non vertebrates) have a definite gain in human-conserved information, as we know, it is about 1.68 million bits, and it corresponds to the grey area (and, obviously, to the lower peak of low-homology proteins).

But the real big jump is in vertebrates (cartilaginous fish). The pink area and the lower peak in the low homology zone correspond to the amazing acquisition of about 3.7 million bits of human-conserved functional information.

That means that a significant percentage of proteins in cartilaginous fish had a high homology, higher than 1 bit per aminoacid, with the corresponding human protein. Indeed, that is true for 9574 proteins out of 19898, 48.12% of the proteome. For comparison, these high homology proteins are “only” 4459 out of 19689,  22.65% of the proteome in pre-vertebrates.

So, in the transition from pre-vertebrates to vertebrates, the following amazing events took place:

  • About 3,7 million bits of human-conserved functional information were generated
  • A mean increase of about 190 bits per proteins of that information took place
  • The number of high human homology proteins more than doubled

Correcting for redundancy

However, we must still correct for redundancy if we want to know how much really new functional information was generated in the transition to vertebrates. As I have explained, we should expect that about half of the total information can be considered unique information.

Making the correction for each single protein, the final result is that the total number of new unique functional bits that appear for the first time in the transition to vertebrates, and are then conserved up to humans, is:

1,764,427  bits

IOWs, more than 1.7 million bits of unique new human-conserved functional information are generated in the proteome with the transition to vertebrates.

But what does 1.7 million bits really mean?

I would like to remind that we are dealing with exponential values here. A functional complexity of 1.7 million bits means a probability (in a random search) of:

1:2^1.7 million

A quite amazing number indeed!

Just remember that Dembski’s Universal Probability Bound is 500 bits, a complexity of 2^500. Our number (2^1764427) is so much bigger that the UPB seems almost a joke, in comparison.

Moreover, this huge modification in the proteome seems to be strongly constrained and definitely necessary for the new vertebrate bodily system, so much so that it is conserved for hundreds of millions of years after its appearance.

Well, that is enough for the moment. The analysis tools I have presented here can be used for many other interesting purposes, for example to compare the evolutionary history of proteins or groups of proteins. But that will probably be the object of further posts.

Comments
GP, I headlined you at 194 and 201, here: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/gp-on-the-origin-of-body-plans-oobp-challenge/ I think that needs to be separately focussed, it is so good. KFkairosfocus
April 2, 2017
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gpuccio:
The Latin word is manus (hand), so in this case English is nearer to the Latin source than Italian!
That's funny!Dionisio
April 2, 2017
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DATCG @204: Thanks for the comment. I'm glad you enjoy reading the references to select research papers. Join the club! Basically I just share references to research papers I find as part of my own research for a project I'm working on. I could have chosen not to share those references here, but it doesn't cost much to do it, compared to the satisfaction of knowing that perhaps someone else would benefit from that action. It's called the golden rule (proactive version): do onto others what you would like others do onto you. The most ancient version was passive, because it was mainly about not doing harm to others. Besides, some folks in this website, specially gpuccio, have encouraged me to share those references. Actually, they have shared references to very interesting papers too! It's an interdisciplinary teamwork. :) You wrote:
The findings only continue to grow as Darwinism and neo-Darwinism have failed to answer ENCODE. The inability to account for novel body plans in the past is far exceeded today as a result of Epigenetic findings and ENCODE.
They fail to answer most fundamental questions. If you've read some of gpuccio's OPs and follow up comments you may have noticed that the Darwinian theories in all their formulations and versions (neo-, modern synthesis, extended, post-whatever, etc.) seem to be between a rock and a hard place when it comes to explaining fundamental issues. Their situation should get worse in the future, as more discoveries are made at increasing rate, as we can see from the overwhelming number of research papers available lately.Dionisio
April 1, 2017
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Dionisio: The Latin word is manus (hand), so in this case English is nearer to the Latin source than Italian!gpuccio
April 1, 2017
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gpuccio: Regarding your comment on the Italian word 'manifattura' vs. the English equivalent 'manufacture', sometimes I have problems with English words that spell very similarly to but not exactly like their Spanish equivalents. I've probably mixed them more than once in my comments here in this website. In this case of the English word 'manufacture', the Spanish equivalent is 'manufactura'. However, I think I've seen it written as 'manofactura' somewhere. Sometimes I'm not sure which way is correct. That's a problem when one is exposed to several languages in various levels of intensity or duration, but one really doesn't learn any of them. Some people think I know several languages, but really I don't know well any language, maybe except Spanish, and maybe not even that. :) I like them all, though. BTW, sometimes I write Spanish, Italian, Polish, Russian, German, Hungarian, French, Portuguese words intentionally, even though I don't know those languages, but just because that's a word that comes to mind, perhaps because I heard it in a particular context associated to certain situation. Welcome to globalization! :) For example, sometimes in lieu of 'nonsense' or 'hogwash' I may write the Polish word 'bzdura' or the Russian term 'yerunda' because I've heard them a number of times in similar situations and they sound kind of familiar. In the case of Russian language, this editor doesn't seem to handle Cyrillic alphabet, hence I have to write a phonetic approximation. Also apparently certain Polish letters are not supported. When I read a paper that claims to explain something, but it really doesn't seem to explain it, I may write 'parole, parole, parole' :) Mina made that Italian expression very popular in my younger years and it has remained in my mind as a stamp for labeling certain speeches or articles that seem to lack what they claim to have.Dionisio
April 1, 2017
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gpuccio @203:
On this, I hope I can say something, probably in a future OP. Indeed, the database I have generated is a very good tool to quantitatively explore the evolutionary history of individual proteins, or of groups of proteins.
That's very interesting. I look forward to reading more on this from you. Thank you.Dionisio
April 1, 2017
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DATCG: Yes, Dionisio has been doing a great work, with patience and goodwill, offering us a constant reminder of the "complex complexity" that is being daily discovered in biological science. His activity helps us focus on what should be at the center of our attention: how true science speaks volumes about ID theory, without ever uttering its name. :)gpuccio
April 1, 2017
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Dioniso, I checked out the link: Mystery at Heart of Life Thank you... your effort is a good one. The findings only continue to grow as Darwinism and neo-Darwinism have failed to answer ENCODE. The inability to account for novel body plans in the past is far exceeded today as a result of Epigenetic findings and ENCODE.DATCG
April 1, 2017
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Dionisio: "How did such increment appear?" This is still beyond our understanding. The only thing that is certain is that the necessary information was inputted by some conscious intelligent designer. "What developmental processes did it affect and how?" On this, I hope I can say something, probably in a future OP. Indeed, the database I have generated is a very good tool to quantitatively explore the evolutionary history of individual proteins, or of groups of proteins. "in the 5th paragraph the word manufactured seems misspelled" Corrected. That was not just a typo, but rather my italian that sometimes comes to the surface. The italian word is "manifattura" and "manifatturare". :)gpuccio
April 1, 2017
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gpuccio, very interesting reactivation of the discussion.
[...] the new body plan of vertebrates includes at least two major innovations that will be very important in all the future natural history of that branch: 1) Cephalization, and in particular the gradual development of the brain, and therefore of all new functiona connected to that 2) Adaptive immunity, which appears for the first time in jawed vertebrates. Both these innovations have a common denominator: they are linked to the appearance and development of two very complex regulatory systems, both aimed to a very complex and nuanced interaction with the outer environment.
That's an interesting area to explore for the developmental Delta(vertebrate) as a subphylum of chordates. You have managed to characterize some information increment in the proteome. Are these questions valid for each of the emerging details? How did such increment appear? What developmental processes did it affect and how? That could enhance tremendously the knowledge on the developmental Delta(vertebrate) added to Dev(chordates). Dev(vertebrate) = Dev(chordate) + Delta(vertebrate) Off topic: in the 5th paragraph the word manufactured seems misspelled?Dionisio
April 1, 2017
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Dionisio: By the way, let's comment some more on this interesting issue of development, always in the light of the results presented in this OP. Vertebrates are considered as a subphylum of chordates: chordates with backbones. So, in a sense, the basic body plan is set up in chordates, with the appearance of the notochord, and other features. As we know, phyla correspond to basic body plans. But, strangely enough, they all appear very "suddenly", during the so called "Cambrian explosion" (approximately 541 - 520 million years ago). We know well all the debates about that amazing event. Of course, neo darwinist have tried their best to hypothesize that the explosion is not an explosion at all, and that the true information for all those new body plans was being "manufactured" more gradually during the previous times. And so on. But the evidence of the fossils remains what it is, and I don't think that our "polite dissenters" have succeeded in explaining away the "almost miracle" of the Cambrian events. However, with vertebrates we are apparently observing an event slightly later than the Cambrian explosion itself. The emergence of a very important (for future developments) subphylum in the well established phylum of chordata. That allows to localize better the emergence of the new information, to somewhat later than the Cambrian, but anyway well more than 400 million years ago. Now, if we judge from the following natural history, it seems that the emergence of vertebrates was a very successful innovation: indeed, chordates not vertebrates are a rather small bunch of organisms today, while vertebrates are, in comparison, one of the main representative groups of animals, from many points of view, even if we don't consider the side aspect that we, as humans, are part of it. :) So, it is rather interesting to observe, according to the data presented in the OP, that the transition to vertebrates was a very exceptional "jump" from the point of view of some specific functional information in the proteome, certainly the biggest step we can observe in the accumulation of human conserved protein information. In that sense, it is a much bigger step than the simple appearance of the phylum chordata, with the appearence of more than twice human conserved information (3,708,977 bits vs 1,685,550, not corrected for redundancy). If we want to make hypotheses about that interesting fact, we could probably reason that the new body plan of vertebrates includes at least two major innovations that will be very important in all the future natural history of that branch: 1) Cephalization, and in particular the gradual development of the brain, and therefore of all new functiona connected to that 2) Adaptive immunity, which appears for the first time in jawed vertebrates. Both these innovations have a common denominator: they are linked to the appearance and development of two very complex regulatory systems, both aimed to a very complex and nuanced interaction with the outer environment. IOWs, they are both, in different ways, complex systems that process information from the outer world. That is an important concept, because it bears a fundamental implication: If the bulk of the huge informational jump that appears in the vertebrate proteome is really linked to the premises for the development of the central nervous system and the brain and of the adaptive immune system, then it is perfectly reasonable to think that much of that new information must be strongly connected, as one can expect in any big and complex system that mainly processes information and reacts to it in very complex and nuanced modalities. Another way to say it is that, in that huge informational jump, a great part of the total information can be expected to be irreducibly complex.gpuccio
April 1, 2017
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Just wanted to post the comment @200! Yes! Did it!Dionisio
April 1, 2017
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Dionisio: "The information jump at the center of your OP in this thread seems like a required important component of the overall developmental Delta(vertebrate)." Absolutely! :)gpuccio
April 1, 2017
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gpuccio, Oh, what was I thinking about? :) Thank you for waking me up. :) Yes, that makes sense. The information jump at the center of your OP in this thread seems like a required important component of the overall developmental Delta(vertebrate).Dionisio
April 1, 2017
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Dionisio: I meant this OP. The huge modifications in the vertebrate proteome are obviously linked to the novelties in the vertebrate body plan.gpuccio
April 1, 2017
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gpuccio @194:
The procedures are encoded in the genome, both at the level of proteome (see my OP here, for that) [...]
see my OP here? Link?Dionisio
April 1, 2017
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gpuccio, I like your detailed description of the state of affairs in this business. You left no room for speculation. Yes, there must be a reasonable precise explanation for the processes that lead from a zygote to a complex multifunctional biological system. Some parts of that explanation are known, others are speculated or guessed at this point, but could be known tomorrow. What we know points to a designed system. What we don't know does not point to anything, but when it will be known then we'll see what it will point to. I believe it will point to a designed system, but let's wait and see the facts when available. Ah, yes, as you said, neo darwinian evolution can do practically anything: even miracles, provided we don’t call them miracles! Yeah, right! :) Over a year ago someone I know consulted some scientists working on biology research and they told him that they still don't know exactly what determines the morphogen source locations, their activation and deactivation timing, their production rates, the kind of morphogen that should be produced in every situation, etc. Let's remember that the formation of the morphogen gradient should be done in such way that the cells to be affected should interpret the right information in the right location at the right time (spatiotemporally). Work in progress... stay tuned. But I'm confident that when the outstanding questions will be answered and the unknowns resolved, we'll be in front of designed systems. That consultation occurred long after this aborted discussion with the Canadian professor. And those are scientists working on that stuff. They even said that the posed questions were at the core of their research. It can't get closer to the topic than that. So how come the scientists working on morphogenesis admitted their lack of knowledge but the Canadian professor answer Yes to the question of absolute knowledge? But now we know that it was my fault, because as you well indicated, I should have bolded the word "exactly" but I didn't.Dionisio
April 1, 2017
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Dionisio: Thank you for summarizing that interesting discussion. I will summarize it even more. 1) Nobody knows how morphogenesis is controlled and guided. 2) Moran is no exception to that. 3) "Experts" are no exception to that. 4) However, according to Moran (and, unfortunately, he is probably quite right): "experts do not see a need to encode body plans and brain in our genome" 5) You and I, and probably some more sensible people, do see that need. 6) So, it seems, the problem is not about what we know, but about what we see as a need. Now, I notice that Moran says: "experts do not see a need to encode body plans and brain in our genome" (emphasis mine) OK, that can mean two very different things: a) Experts do not see a need to encode body plans and brain in our genome, but they think that body plans and the brain are encoded elsewhere OR b) Experts do not see a need to encode body plans and brain anywhere. I will not ask Moran what he really meant, because I think it unlikely that he would respond. So, I can only guess. I would say that he means b). Why? Because, if he means a), I could probably partially agree, and that is a rather unlikely situation, IMO. Now, a) just means that the procedures are encoded elsewhere. That is probably true, at least in part. That "elsewhere can still mean two different things: a1) At some epigenetic level, that we can imagine a2) In some other way, that at present we cannot even imagine Well, I believe that all of that is true. The procedures are encoded in the genome, both at the level of proteome (see my OP here, for that) and at the level of non coding DNA (Ouch! Moran will not like that). And they are also encoded at many epigenetic levels. And they are also encoded at other levels that at present we cannot imagine. But there is one certainty, for me: they are encoded somewhere. Because, you see, most neo darwinists would rather go with b): they really believe that those things are not encoded anywhere. Now, while you and I certainly find that idea completely absurd, let's try to understand what they think. The best, and most honest, admission about that, in my memory, was made by Piotr, some time ago, in a discussion that was exactly about the procedures for cell (and tissue, and organ, and body) development. He said, if I remember well: "I think it's just the memory of what worked". OK, that's a very honest statement of a neo darwinian perspective. But, as it is honest, it includes a precious little word: memory. Now, you and I, having some love for informatics and programming, know all too well that "memory" is not a vague concept. Memory of information must be stored to survive and be available. And that requires, in our human experience, some storage medium. Usually some physical (and often expensive) storage medium. IOWs, no memory storage medium, no party. So, I would like to ask Piotr (if he still reads this blog, that is unlikely), or Moran (if he likes to answer, that is unlikely), or anyone else: Where and how are the procedure for cell (and tissue, and organ, and body) development stored? Because, you see, they are certainly available in some way, otherwise how could the embryo of any organism generate the full body? I suppose that the most likely argument of any neo darwinist, at this point, would be that those procedures must, after all, be very simple. A few HARs, a few hundred, at best a few thousand, nucleotides, and the deed is done. Done? The human body plan? The human brain and nervous system? The whole immunology network? And so on, and so on? You and I, having some love for informatics and programming, know all too well a very basic truth: very simple programs require some limited memory to be stored, but very complex programs require a lot of memory. So, is the information for human brain really so simple? Is it like squeezing, say, Windows 10 in 1-2 KB at most? OK, we know that the biological designer must be very good, but so good? Ah, but I forgot: neo darwinian evolution can do practically anything: even miracles, provided we don't call them miracles! :)gpuccio
April 1, 2017
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#192 follow-up D @110: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/larry-moran-doesnt-like-any-of-us-not-sure-why/#comment-584439 professor @146: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/larry-moran-doesnt-like-any-of-us-not-sure-why/#comment-584564 DTZ @158: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/larry-moran-doesnt-like-any-of-us-not-sure-why/#comment-584615 D @159: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/larry-moran-doesnt-like-any-of-us-not-sure-why/#comment-584623 professor @161: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/larry-moran-doesnt-like-any-of-us-not-sure-why/#comment-584627 D @163: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/larry-moran-doesnt-like-any-of-us-not-sure-why/#comment-584629 D @165: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/larry-moran-doesnt-like-any-of-us-not-sure-why/#comment-584635 professor @181: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/larry-moran-doesnt-like-any-of-us-not-sure-why/#comment-584679 DTZ @183 & @184: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/larry-moran-doesnt-like-any-of-us-not-sure-why/#comment-584700 D @187 & @188 & @189: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/larry-moran-doesnt-like-any-of-us-not-sure-why/#comment-584708 D @194 & @195: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/larry-moran-doesnt-like-any-of-us-not-sure-why/#comment-584787 professor @197 & @198: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/larry-moran-doesnt-like-any-of-us-not-sure-why/#comment-584855 D @199 & @200: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/larry-moran-doesnt-like-any-of-us-not-sure-why/#comment-584870 D @202: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/larry-moran-doesnt-like-any-of-us-not-sure-why/#comment-585017 D @215: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/larry-moran-doesnt-like-any-of-us-not-sure-why/#comment-585633 D @219 & @220 & @221 & @222: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/larry-moran-doesnt-like-any-of-us-not-sure-why/#comment-586316 That's all.Dionisio
March 31, 2017
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#191 addendum: Looking back at that sequence of comments, now it's obvious that my perception and expectations -as expressed @64- were proved wrong: apparently DTZ's message persuaded the professor to move ahead and teach the ID folks a hard lesson by responding the insolent challenge posed by the uneducated rebellious guy. The professor's reaction indeed took me by surprise. But I was glad, because it was a rare opportunity where we could have a potentially informative discussion with a professor willing to share publicly his vast knowledge of biochemistry and biology. Soon after that my expectations were proved wrong again. :(Dionisio
March 31, 2017
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#190 addendum That post by DTZ @46 was quite provocative, urging the professor to teach the ID folks a hard lesson by punishing the rebellious uneducated guy who had posted that insolent challenge to the Neo-Darwinian establishment:
46 DTZ October 23, 2015 at 1:42 pm
Dear Professor Moran, I think I see your point, but perhaps a more effective way to prove it is to show the alleged ‘challenge’ one of their folks posted here: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/reality-check-courtesy-of-james-tour/#comment-582669 is not a challenge at all. The guy who wrote that comment admitted he’s not a scientist. It should be easy for someone with your academic credentials and scientific knowledge/experience to show there’s nothing challenging about their questions. Actually, if you do so, you may shutdown their website completely, or at least future visitors would see what’s going on. Wouldn’t this approach work better than engaging in non constructive arguments with the ID folks? Had I had a fraction of your scientific knowledge I would have shut up that guy who issued the alleged ‘challenge’ in the above link. Thank you.
https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/larry-moran-doesnt-like-any-of-us-not-sure-why/#comment-584216
The reply to DTZ's provocative comment was posted @64 the following day:
Regarding the link you posted @46, I don’t think that answering those and other follow-up questions would necessarily shutdown this website. But it definitely could provide to the mentioned professor and his comrades the credibility they all currently lack so badly. However, better don’t hold your breadth while waiting for the mentioned professor or anybody else to dare accepting my invitation to seriously explain things and answering questions. I don’t expect that to occur anytime soon. They seem to lack what is required to do it.
Dionisio
March 31, 2017
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gpuccio: Maybe that was my error. I should have bolded it, so that the professor could see it. BTW, can his students do the same, i.e. claim that his exam questions were dishonest (tricky) because some words were not bolded? :) Anyway, the whole show started with this introductory lesson on referring to ID and to a fellow Canadian lady in very respectful terms. See the comments posted @3 and @4 here: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/larry-moran-doesnt-like-any-of-us-not-sure-why/#comment-584124 Later this comment by DTZ @46 referred to my challenge, which paralleled professor Tour's challenge, but from the perspective of a non-scientist: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/larry-moran-doesnt-like-any-of-us-not-sure-why/#comment-584216 Here's my response @64: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/larry-moran-doesnt-like-any-of-us-not-sure-why/#comment-584272 DTZ responded @66: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/larry-moran-doesnt-like-any-of-us-not-sure-why/#comment-584299 Here the professor addressed me directly @69: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/larry-moran-doesnt-like-any-of-us-not-sure-why/#comment-584320 Here I responded @91: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/larry-moran-doesnt-like-any-of-us-not-sure-why/#comment-584389 Here the professor responded @94: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/larry-moran-doesnt-like-any-of-us-not-sure-why/#comment-584416 I didn't expect my challenge to be taken seriously by a scientist of that caliber. That was a nice present I got that day! :)Dionisio
March 31, 2017
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Dionisio: "Apparently the dishonest (tricky) part of my question was the word “exactly” embedded in the text in a kind of stealthy-subliminal way." Of course, you should have bolded it!gpuccio
March 31, 2017
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Origenes @184: I think the problem is that you didn't ask an honest question. :) Next time try to ask honest questions. Maybe then you'll get the right answer. :) I made the same mistake. I asked this extremely dishonest question: "Do you know exactly how morphogen gradients are formed?" The professor answered "Yes." We could double check with Denyse, but maybe in Canadian English "dishonest question" means "tricky question"? Apparently the dishonest (tricky) part of my question was the word "exactly" embedded in the text in a kind of stealthy-subliminal way. :)Dionisio
March 31, 2017
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gpuccio @185:
Humans are probably only chimps suffering from narcissistic disorder, and convinced that they are superior for some cryptic reason.
That's one of the funniest statements I've read lately. But unfortunately it could be true. :) After all it has been demonstrated that humans and chimps share 103% of their genes. Well, I forgot the exact number, but it doesn't matter, it doesn't have to be exact, does it? :)Dionisio
March 31, 2017
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Origenes: Ah, but of course there are the HARs. Couple of hundred non coding regions, a few hundreds nucleotides each. Of course that's enough to explain human nervous system. You know what is the most depressing aspect of Moran's statement: "experts do not see a need to encode body plans and brain in our genome"? That it is simply and dramatically true!gpuccio
March 31, 2017
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Origenes: Not even an expert brain? :) Moran, if I understand him well, is a huge fan of the theory that all the novelty (or almost all) in humans vs chimps is neutral variation, fixed by random genetic drift. So, we already have so little novelty in the human genome that it would be difficult to explain the differences in humans even if all of it were extremely functional. But no, according to Moran it's exactly the amount of neutral variation that we can expect. Conclusion? Maybe human and chimps are exactly the same. Humans are probably only chimps suffering from narcissistic disorder, and convinced that they are superior for some cryptic reason. And Moran is probably convinced that he is superior to all the rest... :)gpuccio
March 31, 2017
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gpuccio: Eh, we have to be patient with professors. They are not like normal people… :)
We all know that Larry Moran is a huge fan of the junk-dna hypothesis. I once posed the question:
If most of our genome is junk, then where is the information stored for the (adult) body plan? Where is the information stored for e.g. the brain? And where is the information stored for how to build all this?
Here is Moran's answer:
Larry Moran: …. experts do not see a need to encode body plans and brain in our genome …
Origenes
March 31, 2017
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gpuccio:
[...] the problem is that biologists, however smart, are in a really uncomfortable position: they have to pretend they can explain what they cannot explain, and they have to defend a theory that cannot be defended, but that almost everyone believes to be true.
What you just wrote describes the situation so well, that I will quote it again in the future. Thanks. Yes, agree that it shouldn't be pleasant to be in their situation, which is getting worse with every new discovery. Poor things. We should feel compassion for them.Dionisio
March 31, 2017
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Dionisio: Eh, we have to be patient with professors. They are not like normal people... :) Seriously, I think the problem is that biologists, however smart, are in a really uncomfortable position: they have to pretend they can explain what they cannot explain, and they have to defend a theory that cannot be defended, but that almost everyone believes to be true. Frankly, I am happy that I am not in their shoes. :)gpuccio
March 31, 2017
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