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The amazing level of engineering in the transition to the vertebrate proteome: a global analysis

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As a follow-up to my previous post:

I am presenting here some results obtained by a general application, expanded to the whole human proteome, of the procedure already introduced in that post.

Main assumptions.

The aim of the procedure is to measure a well defined equivalent of functional information in proteins: the information that is conserved throughout long evolutionary times, in a well specified evolutionary line.

The simple assumption is that  such information, which is not modified by neutral variation in a time span of hundreds of million years, is certainly highly functionally constrained, and is therefore a very good empirical approximation of the value of functional information in a protein.

In particular, I will use the proteins in the human proteome as “probes” to measure the information that is conserved from different evolutionary timepoints.

The assumption here is very simple. Let’s say that the line that includes humans (let’s call it A) splits from some different line (let’s call it B) at some evolutionary timepoint T. Then, the homology that we observe in a protein when we compare organisms derived from B  and humans (derived from A) must have survived neutral variation throughout the timespan from T to now. If the timespan is long enough, we can very safely assume that the measured homology is a measure of some specific functional information conserved from the time of the split to now.

Procedure.

I downloaded a list of the basic human proteome (in FASTA form). In particular, I downloaded it from UNIPROT selecting all human reviewed sequences, for a total of 20171 sequences. That is a good approximation of the basic human  proteome as known at present.

I used NCBI’s blast tool in local form to blast the whole human proteome against known protein sequences from specific groups of organisms, using the nr (non redundant) NCBI database of protein sequences, and selecting, for each human protein, the alignment with the highest homology bitscore from that group of organisms.

Homology values:

I have used two different measures of homology for each protein alignment:

  1. The total bitscore from the BLAST alignment (from now on: “bits”)
  2. The ratio of the total bitscore to the length in aminoacids of the human protein, that I have called “bits per aminoacid” (from now on, “baa”). This is a measure of the mean “density” of functional information in that protein, which corrects for the protein length.

The values of homology in bits have a very wide range of variation  in each specific comparison with a group of organisms. For example, in the comparison between human proteins and the proteins in cartilaginous fish, the range of bit homology per protein is 21.6 – 34368, with a mean of 541.4 and a median of 376 bits.

The vlaues of homology in baa , instead, are necessarily confined between 0 and about 2.2. 2.2, indeed, is (approximately) the highest homology bitscore (per aminoacid) that we get when we blast a protein against itself (total identity).  I use the BLAST bitscore because it is a widely used and accepted way to measure homology and to derive probabilities from it (the E values).

So, for example, in the same human – cartilaginous fish comparison, the range of the baa values is:  0.012 – 2.126, with a mean of 0.95 and a median of 0.97 baas.

For each comparison, a small number of proteins (usually about 1-2%) did not result in any significant alignment, and were not included in the specific analysis for that comparison.

Organism categories and split times:

The analysis includes the following groups of organisms:

  • Cnidaria
  • Cephalopoda (as a representative sample of Mollusca, and more in general Protostomia: cephalopoda and more generally Mollusca, are, among Protostomia, a group with highest homology to deuterostomia, and therefore can be a good sample to evaluate conservation from the protostomia – deuterostomia split).
  • Deuterostomia (excluding vertebrates): this includes echinoderms, hemichordates and chordates (excluding vertebrates).
  • Cartilaginous fish
  • Bony fish
  • Amphibians
  • Crocodylia, including crocodiles and alligators (as a representative sample of reptiles, excluding birds. Here again, crocodylia have usually the highest homology with human proteins among reptiles, together maybe with turtles).
  • Marsupials (an infraclass of mammals representing Metatheria, a clade which split early enough from the human lineage)
  • Afrotheria, including elephants and other groups (representing a group of mammals relatively distant from the human lineage, in the Eutheria clade)

There are reasons for these choices, but I will not discuss them in detail for the moment. The main purpose is always to detect the functional information (in form of homology) that was present at specific split times, and has been therefore conserved in both lines after the split. In a couple of cases (Protostomia, Reptiles), I have used a smaller group (Cephalopoda, Crocodylia) which could reasonably represent the wider group, because using very big groups of sequences (like all protostomia, for example) was too time consuming for my resources.

So what are the split times we are considering? This is a very difficult question, because split times are not well known, and very often you can get very different values for them from different sources. Moreover, I am not at all an expert of these issues.

So, the best I can do is to give here some reasonable proposal, from what I have found, but I am completely open to any suggestions to improve my judgements. In each split, humans derive from the second line:

  • Cnidaria – Bilateria. Let’s say at least 555 My ago.
  • Protostomia – deuterostomia.  Let’s say about 530 My ago.
  • Pre-vertebrate deuterostomia (including chordates like cephalocordata and Tunicates) – Vertebrates  (Cartilaginous fish). Let’s say 440 My ago.
  • Cartilaginous fish – Bony fish. Let’s say about 410 My ago.
  • Bony fish – Tetrapods (Amphibians). Let’s say 370 My ago, more or less.
  • Amphibians – Amniota (Sauropsida, Crocodylia): about 340 My ago
  • Sauropsida (Crocodylia) – Synapsida (Metatheria, Marsupialia): about 310 My ago
  • Metatheria – Eutheria (Afrotheria): about 150 My ago
  • Atlantogenata (Afrotheria) – Boreoeutheria: probably about 100 My ago.

The simple rule is: for each split, the second member of each split is the line to humans, and the human conserved information present in the first member of each couple must have been conserved in both lines at least from the time of the split to present day.

So, for example, the human-conserved information in Cnidaria has been conserved for at least 555 MY, the human-conserved information in Crocodylia has been conserved for at least 310 My, and so on.

The problem of redundancy (repeated information).

However, there is an important problem that requires attention. Not all the information in the human proteome is unique, in the sense of “present only once”. Many sequences, especially domains, are repeated many times, in more or less similar way, in many different proteins. Let’s call this “the problem of redundancy”.

So, all the results that we obtain about homologies of the human proteome to some other organism or group of organisms should be corrected for that factor, if we want to draw conclusions about the real amount of new functional information in a transition. Of course, repeated information will inflate the apparent amount of new functional information.

Therefore, I computed a “coefficient of correction for redundancy” for each protein in the human proteome. For the moment, for the sake of simplicity, I will not go into the details of that computation, but I am ready to discuss it in depth if anyone is interested.

The interesting result is that the mean coefficient of correction is, according to my computations, 0.497. IOWs, we can say that about half of the potential information present in the human proteome can be considered unique, while about half can be considered as repeated information. This correction takes into account, for each protein in the human proteome, the number of proteins in the human proteome that have significant homologies to that protein and their mean homology.

So, when I give the results “corrected for redundancy” what I mean is that the homology values for each protein have been corrected multiplying them for the coefficient of that specific protein. Of course, in general, the results will be approximately halved.

Results

Table 1 shows the means of the values of total homology (bitscore) with human proteins in bits and in bits per aminoacid for the various groups of organisms.

 

Group of organisms Homology bitscore

(mean)

Total homology

bitscore

Bits per aminoacid

(mean)

Cnidaria 276.9 5465491 0.543
Cephalopoda 275.6 5324040 0.530
Deuterostomia (non vertebrates) 357.6 7041769 0.671
Cartilaginous fish 541.4 10773387 0.949
Bony fish 601.5 11853443 1.064
Amphibians 630.4 12479403 1.107
Crocodylia 706.2 13910052 1.217
Marsupialia 777.5 15515530 1.354
Afrotheria 936.2 18751656 1.629
Maximum possible value (for identity) 24905793 2.2

 

Figure 1 shows a plot of the mean bits-per-aminoacid score in the various groups of organisms, according to the mentioned approximate times of split.

Figure 2 shows a plot of the density distribution of human-conserved functional information in the various groups of organisms.

 

 

 

The jump to vertebrates.

Now, let’s see how big are the informational jumps for each split, always in relation to human conserved information.

The following table sums up the size of each jump:

 

 

 

 

Split Homology bitscore jump (mean) Total homology bitscore jump Bits per aminoacid (mean)
Homology bits in Cnidaria 5465491 0.54
Cnidaria – Bilateria (cephalopoda) -6.3 -121252 -0.02
Protostomia (Cephalopoda)- Deuterostomia 87.9 1685550 0.15
Deuterostomia (non vert.) – Vertebrates (Cartilaginous fish) 189.6 3708977 0.29
Cartilaginous fish-Bony fish 54.9 1073964 0.11
Bony fish-Tetrapoda (Amphibians) 31.9 624344 0.05
Amphibians-Amniota (Crocodylia) 73.3 1430963 0.11
Sauropsida (Crocodylia)-Synapsida (Marsupialia) 80.8 1585361 0.15
Metatheria (Marsupialia) – Eutheria (Afrotheria) 162.2 3226932 0.28
Total bits of homology in Afrotheria 18751656 1.63
Total bits of maximum information in  humans 24905793 2.20

 

The same jumps are shown graphically in Figure 3:

 

As everyone can see, each of these splits, except the first one (Cnidaria-Bilateria) is characterized by a very relevant informational jumps in terms of human-conserved information. The split is in general of the order of 0.5 – 1.5 million bits.

However, two splits are characterized by a much bigger jump: the prevertebrate-vertebrate split reaches 3.7 million bits, while the Methateria-Eutheria split is very near, with 3.2 million bits.

For the moment I will discuss only the prevertebrate-vertebrate jump.

This is where a great part of the functional information present in humans seems to have been generated: 3.7 million bits, and about 0.29 bits per aminoacid of new functional information.

Let’s see that jump also in terms of information density, looking again at Figure 2, but only with the first 4 groups of organisms:

 

Where is the jump here?

 

We can see that the density distribution is almost identical for Cnidaria and Cephalopoda. Deuterostomia (non vertebrates) have a definite gain in human-conserved information, as we know, it is about 1.68 million bits, and it corresponds to the grey area (and, obviously, to the lower peak of low-homology proteins).

But the real big jump is in vertebrates (cartilaginous fish). The pink area and the lower peak in the low homology zone correspond to the amazing acquisition of about 3.7 million bits of human-conserved functional information.

That means that a significant percentage of proteins in cartilaginous fish had a high homology, higher than 1 bit per aminoacid, with the corresponding human protein. Indeed, that is true for 9574 proteins out of 19898, 48.12% of the proteome. For comparison, these high homology proteins are “only” 4459 out of 19689,  22.65% of the proteome in pre-vertebrates.

So, in the transition from pre-vertebrates to vertebrates, the following amazing events took place:

  • About 3,7 million bits of human-conserved functional information were generated
  • A mean increase of about 190 bits per proteins of that information took place
  • The number of high human homology proteins more than doubled

Correcting for redundancy

However, we must still correct for redundancy if we want to know how much really new functional information was generated in the transition to vertebrates. As I have explained, we should expect that about half of the total information can be considered unique information.

Making the correction for each single protein, the final result is that the total number of new unique functional bits that appear for the first time in the transition to vertebrates, and are then conserved up to humans, is:

1,764,427  bits

IOWs, more than 1.7 million bits of unique new human-conserved functional information are generated in the proteome with the transition to vertebrates.

But what does 1.7 million bits really mean?

I would like to remind that we are dealing with exponential values here. A functional complexity of 1.7 million bits means a probability (in a random search) of:

1:2^1.7 million

A quite amazing number indeed!

Just remember that Dembski’s Universal Probability Bound is 500 bits, a complexity of 2^500. Our number (2^1764427) is so much bigger that the UPB seems almost a joke, in comparison.

Moreover, this huge modification in the proteome seems to be strongly constrained and definitely necessary for the new vertebrate bodily system, so much so that it is conserved for hundreds of millions of years after its appearance.

Well, that is enough for the moment. The analysis tools I have presented here can be used for many other interesting purposes, for example to compare the evolutionary history of proteins or groups of proteins. But that will probably be the object of further posts.

Comments
gpuccio @174: Yes, I think so too. And most probably that professor knows more biochemistry and biology than I'll ever learn. It was disappointing that he aborted our incipient discussion and shutdown any hope to give it try another time. I was looking forward to learning quite a few things from a Canadian professor at a prestigious university. Apparently that potential discussion wasn't interesting to him because I wouldn't be able to provide any new information in his area of expertise. The scientific knowledge in that discussion was expected to flow mostly out of him, but probably many readers could have benefited from his willingness to share his vast scientific knowledge with the rest of us publicly. That would have been encouraging and commendable. Unfortunately that didn't happen. I wonder what went wrong then. Perhaps only the professor could explain it, but maybe he'll never reveal it to us?Dionisio
March 31, 2017
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gpuccio @177: I know you appreciate the references to research papers more than most people in this site. Also you understand them better than most folks here. That's sufficient reason to keep posting more references. You've written some of the most insightful and encouraging comments in that thread. I've only posted references to papers written by other people, hence my contributions are practically insignificant. That thread is not popular by any measure. However, despite being unattractive to most people (including timothya), in the 27 months since its creation by News it has received 167 anonymous visits per month. Not bad for a boring nerdy thread. :)Dionisio
March 31, 2017
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Dionisio: "Ironically, the bad news for them come mostly from research labs unrelated to ID." How true! :)gpuccio
March 31, 2017
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timothya @173:
Forgive me, but it is to laugh.
Yes, I forgive you, though on the recipient's end the forgiveness is effective only if you truly repent. On my end it's effective immediately. BTW, I'm glad that thread makes you laugh. I've heard it makes some Neo-Darwinian folks kind of anxious, because it reminds them how fast they're running out of strong arguments to support their 'just so' stories. Ironically, the bad news for them come mostly from research labs unrelated to ID.Dionisio
March 31, 2017
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Dionisio: Be sure that your contributions to the "Mystery at the heart of life" thread are greatly appreciated. By me, at least. :)gpuccio
March 31, 2017
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timothya: No reasons to be hostile. Any scientific contributions from you to the discussion here are welcome.gpuccio
March 31, 2017
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Armand Jacks: I don't know if you are a materialist, and frankly I don't care. But I am certainly happy to assume the best about your integrity and courage. I have never had, I think, the pleasure of discussing with you. Any contribution you may like to give about this discussion is certainly welcome. As you invited me to submit the content of this OP to a peer reviewed journal, I suppose I can ask you: if you were my peer-reviewer, what would you say? If you like, of course. By the way, have you ever tried to use R? It's a great resource indeed. I use it (in a Windows environment), and use the R Commander package as a basic graphic interface.gpuccio
March 31, 2017
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Dionisio: About Moran, what I meant is that at least he is smart. :)gpuccio
March 31, 2017
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Dionisio @172: "Upright Biped should answer himself, but I assume he realized those debates were (and usually are) a waste of precious time. That’s why I try to avoid them, though sometimes I mistakenly engage in them." Yes, perhaps you should not presume to read someone else's mind. In any case, your "waste of precious time" presumably explains your contributions to this thread: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/mystery-at-the-heart-of-life Forgive me, but it is to laugh.timothya
March 31, 2017
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timothya @170: Upright Biped should answer himself, but I assume he realized those debates were (and usually are) a waste of precious time. That's why I try to avoid them, though sometimes I mistakenly engage in them.Dionisio
March 31, 2017
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Armand Jacks @169: Have you ever publicly claimed that the ID concept or proposition is not scientific or that this UD website is poor in scientific discussions? Do you agree with gpuccio's OP and follow-up comments in this thread? If your answer to the first question is NO and you answer YES to the second question, then I think Origenes' statement @154 does not concern you. Perhaps one could argue that Origenes should have specified (narrow down) in more details what kind of materialists his statement referred to. Maybe some materialists are neutral regarding the ongoing biology-related debates and don't express any public opinion about ID or this website. I don't think Origenes' comment @154 refers to them. Perhaps Origenes was referring to those folks who claim this site is poor in scientific debates and/or ID is not scientific. The OP for this thread is as scientific as it can be.Dionisio
March 31, 2017
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Upright Biped @159: "Ah, yes. I remember arguing ineffectively with all of them. ???? (I mentioned the names I did because they are specifically biologistss — except for Liddle — I only include her because she is so consistent and would never stoop to making claims that she could not back up. And if she did, she would certainly acknowledge it without prejudice. ???? )." Do you really mean that you argued ineffectively? If so, what did you learn from the experience?timothya
March 31, 2017
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O@154:
SHAME on the materialists who display a complete lack of integrity and an enormous amount of cowardice by ignoring this thread.
Does that mean that I am not a coward and have integrity?Armand Jacks
March 31, 2017
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gpuccio @163:
Moran is an interesting discussant, I think.
Yes, agree. Interesting indeed. :) He wrote that he won't discuss biology with me because I don't ask honest questions. Who knows what he meant by that? :) It didn't help that I asked the questions very respectfully and even admonished some folks who apparently don't like him and were calling him names (they changed a letter in his last name). All that is publicly recorded in this website, available to anyone upon request. Yes, he's an interesting discussant indeed. :) @129 I wrote:
It’s depressing to see how much criticism is out there by those who wrongly claim that the ID paradigm lacks scientific substance, but just about 3% of the comments posted in this scientific discussion are from those critical voices. When those folks are given opportunities like this to present their arguments, their conspicuous absence raises some questions. Obviously, we know they lack valid serious arguments, but still they could politely present whatever argument they have. A couple of years ago I asked a very simple biology-related question to a Canadian biochemistry professor in this site. I’m still scratching my head trying to understand what could have possessed him to write such a pathetically wrong answer. I was looking forward to have an interesting discussion but was disappointed because the professor quit right away, saying that I did not ask honest questions. Denyse translated that to me from Canadian academic English to commoners’ jargon, but her explanation did not satisfy my curiosity. I’m still trying to figure out what went wrong then. I definitely respect that professor and thought I could learn quite a bit from a serious biology-related discussion with him, but unfortunately it turned sour and was aborted prematurely. Perhaps he quit because it would have been a waste of time for him to discuss biology issues with someone who publicly had declared that knows very little about that topic? Maybe. Does anyone recall that incident? It’s recorded in this site. Anybody can read it again. It’s quite different in the case of GP answering all my dumb questions, sometimes repeated questions, probably annoying questions too. :) Now, why is it that a Canadian doctor can’t stand such a discussion while an Italian doctor can? Maybe that’s because Hispanics and Italians have more in common? :) https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-amazing-level-of-engineering-in-the-transition-to-the-vertebrate-proteome-a-global-analysis/#comment-627801
Dionisio
March 31, 2017
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vivid: " I would go one step further and say that “nothing” is inconceivable." I agree. Of course, there are minor meanings where the word has some specific role in human reasoning. For example, in set theory we can define the empty set as a set that contains "nothing" (in the sense of "no objects"). But those are relative meanings, in well specified contexts. But if we are asked to conceive "nothing" as the "absence of any entity of any kind", then I would say that's really beyond human thought and imagination.gpuccio
March 31, 2017
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GP I too think very highly of Mark. He was always respectful towards me. I found him to be as you say an honest discussant. GP :"Which, definitely, are not “nothing” (see the amount of complex mathematical concepts that are necessary to just start describing them)." As soon as one starts describing what nothing is don't you think that pretty well shows how absurd that position is? To describe what nothing is is tantamount to admitting it is something. Game over. I mean Krause wrote a whole book about nothing. There sure was a hell of a lot of something describing what nothing is. Seriously Try to imagine nothing, we can't because we always think of something which is the opposite of nothing. I would go one step further and say that "nothing" is inconceivable. Vividvividbleau
March 31, 2017
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vividbleau: Thank you for the comments. I think Mark is a very honest discussant, and a good thinker. He is precise, and patient. His personal style is probably a little "rigid" (compare with the - sometimes excessive - "flexibility in Zachriel, for example). However, I have discussed with him a lot of times, with great personal satisfaction. OK, sometimes he avoid some aspects of a discussion, but I think that he does not do that out of malice. probably, he just stay quiet when he has nothing new to say. Nothing bad in that. Regarding the discussion you quote (thank you for the formatting, it makes things much clearer! :) ), I obviously agree with you. My take on the problem is quite simple: Well, maybe QM entails that some phenomenic manifestation can appear at certain times (as they say, from quantum void). Then, philosophically speaking, I would never say that it "comes from nothing". Of course, it comes from the laws of QM. Which, definitely, are not "nothing" (see the amount of complex mathematical concepts that are necessary to just start describing them).gpuccio
March 31, 2017
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mike1962: "Always a pleasure. Keep coming back." Thank you indeed! I will, I will...gpuccio
March 30, 2017
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UB: Yes they are biologists. Maybe that's the problem! :) Seriously, I have never discussed directly with them. Moran is an interesting discussant, I think. Matzke... OK, let's be constructive: Liddle is a very honest person! :)gpuccio
March 30, 2017
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Late edit MF Vivid:"Thanks for taking time out to respond. I too hope you are feeling better. I thought you did an excellent job in summarising your position. A few comments." MF: "We continue to muddle two propositions. (A ) Everything that comes into existence has a cause. (B ) It is self-evident that (A ) is true. I think that at the QM level (A ) is false which would entail (B ) is false. The evidence for this being that QM scientists have built robust models without causes that account for what we observe. This is generally accepted as evidence for something not existing – think phlogiston or ether." Vivid: "To say that A is false does not mean “something not existing” or that something comes from nothing. There indeed can be no evidence of nothing. Your examples of phlogiston or ether have the potential to be investigated as to whether they exist or do not exist, nothing cannot be investigated since it has no physical properties whatsoever.There can be no evidence of nothing. It is as I keep repeating beyond (meta) physics. Even if you are correct that QM models accurately reflect no causes that does not equate that something comes from nothing. No model can model nothing since there is nothing to model." MF: "Several people have commented that (A ) is true and maybe (B ) because something can’t come from nothing or words to that effect. I can do no more than repeat what I written many times above. I contend that it is at least possible and maybe true at the QM level that things sometimes just appear. They don’t “come from” anything. There is no “coming from” taking place. They are just absent one moment and present the next. I don’t understand why this is so hard to accept." Vivid : "I have no problem with the observation that “things sometimses just appear” The key word here is “appear” and if everyone just left it there I would have no problems with that. But you dont leave it there rather you take a meta physical leap that this means that things that are appearing exist from nothing. This is an unwarranted leap IMO." MF "If you can imagine something then it is logically possible." Vivid: "And this has been one of my main points all along. Assuming you are correct about this( see VJT).If it is correct you have argued forcibly that it is not logically possible that something springs from nothing.Please imagine for all of us “nothing”" Still waiting. Vividvividbleau
March 30, 2017
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Gp, I remember the thread well. I never did receive an answer from Mark Frank to my two questions. How do you empirically go about demonstrating "nothing" and furthermore how can one imagine "nothing". MF Thanks for taking time out to respond. I too hope you are feeling better. I thought you did an excellent job in summarising your position. A few comments. We continue to muddle two propositions. (A ) Everything that comes into existence has a cause. (B ) It is self-evident that (A ) is true. I think that at the QM level (A ) is false which would entail (B ) is false. The evidence for this being that QM scientists have built robust models without causes that account for what we observe. This is generally accepted as evidence for something not existing – think phlogiston or ether. To say that A is false does not mean “something not existing” or that something comes from nothing. There indeed can be no evidence of nothing. Your examples of phlogiston or ether have the potential to be investigated as to whether they exist or do not exist, nothing cannot be investigated since it has no physical properties whatsoever.There can be no evidence of nothing. It is as I keep repeating beyond (meta) physics. Even if you are correct that QM models accurately reflect no causes that does not equate that something comes from nothing. No model can model nothing since there is nothing to model. Several people have commented that (A ) is true and maybe (B ) because something can’t come from nothing or words to that effect. I can do no more than repeat what I written many times above. I contend that it is at least possible and maybe true at the QM level that things sometimes just appear. They don’t “come from” anything. There is no “coming from” taking place. They are just absent one moment and present the next. I don’t understand why this is so hard to accept. I have no problem with the observation that “things sometimses just appear” The key word here is “appear” and if everyone just left it there I would have no problems with that. But you dont leave it there rather you take a meta physical leap that this means that things that are appearing exist from nothing. This is an unwarranted leap IMO. If you can imagine something then it is logically possible. And this has been one of my main points all along. Assuming you are correct about this( see VJT).If it is correct you have argued forcibly that it is not logically possible that something springs from nothing.Please imagine for all of us “nothing” Vivid Still waiting. Vividvividbleau
March 30, 2017
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gpuccio Always a pleasure. Keep coming back. :)mike1962
March 30, 2017
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Ah, yes. I remember arguing ineffectively with all of them. :) (I mentioned the names I did because they are specifically biologistss -- except for Liddle -- I only include her because she is so consistent and would never stoop to making claims that she could not back up. And if she did, she would certainly acknowledge it without prejudice. :) ).Upright BiPed
March 30, 2017
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UB: Should I become nostalgic for Alicia, too? Ehm, maybe not. :)gpuccio
March 30, 2017
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UB: I must say that I have dear memories of Elizabeth! Maybe not so much of her arguments... :)gpuccio
March 30, 2017
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UB: Frankly, I would love to have back Piotr, Mark Frank, or Zachriel.gpuccio
March 30, 2017
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Where's Matzke? Where's Moran? Where's ... Perhaps Liddle will show up with a simulation.Upright BiPed
March 30, 2017
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SHAME on the materialists who display a complete lack of integrity and an enormous amount of cowardice by ignoring this thread.
Should we say that my results presented here remain unchallenged? [gpuccio]
Origenes
March 30, 2017
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Eric Anderson: Another sad revival at TSZ (in the discussion about functional protein space) is the infamous nylonase issue. For reference, I have discussed it in great detail here: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/four-fallacies-evolutionists-make-when-arguing-about-biological-function-part-1/ See in particular my posts #11 and #21, and the following discussion. With the brilliant cooperation of Paul Giem (on our side) and of some of the most brilliant discussants on the other side, like Piotr and Mark Frank. Ah, the old good times when it was still possible to have a stimulating discussion with intelligent, serious and honest defenders on neo darwinian thought!gpuccio
March 30, 2017
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Eric Anderson: BTW, why so much attention to a webpage that apparently is not recognized even by Alexa? :) Yes, I know that Alexa's recognition should not serve as a quality parameter, but it definitely raises some suspicions. :) The question is how serious that website really is. At least they seem quite weak in the science-related arena, don't they? Anyway, I don't have spare time to squander on senseless discussions, much less to visit other venues that seem unattractive to my palate. :) At one point I did a quick comparison -triggered by a comment someone made here referring to that website- between that and this UD site and the difference was abysmal. The results are available here in UD. Who knows? Make be that woke them up and motivated them to get better? Dunno. Haven't checked since there.Dionisio
March 30, 2017
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