The Exosome: RNA Degradation and Evolution

_{Cornelius Hunter

February 6, 2013

Intelligent Design}

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When the cell makes a copy of a segment of DNA the result is called RNA. This long, thin molecule has many roles, including transmitting information, regulating the cell’s activities and helping molecular machines perform various tasks. But when its job is done, an RNA molecule must be broken apart. The job of destroying RNA is crucial for without it the cell’s RNA would rapidly build up and kill the cell. So cells are equipped with an intricate machine that chops up RNA molecules when they no longer are needed. This RNA degradation machine is called the exosome and it is comprised of ten finely-tuned proteins, nine of which form a cylinder through which the spent RNA is threaded. The tenth protein then chops up the RNA molecule. New research is now elucidating just how the exosome works, and the results pose yet more profound problems for evolution. Read more

Comments

Eric:
But the time has always been near.
Really? "And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near." (Rev. 22:10) "But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end." (Dan. 12:4) The view that the time is always near is likewise contradicted by Scripture.Mung_{February 15, 2013
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Mung:
. . . that the time was near.
Ah, yes. But the time has always been near. That is one of the most constant themes -- amusingly for thousands of years -- that the time is near, short, at hand, coming quickly, however else we want to say it. No doubt the time really is near -- for each one of us individually, that is. It could be tomorrow or in 50 years or 100 years, but not much longer than that. So for all of us, our time is relatively near.Eric Anderson_{February 14, 2013
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Bornagain77 , Mung, and everyone else, thanks again for your responses. Bronagain77, ok you win, I won't debate the status of GE any further. :) That said I do have some questions. And again this isn't just to Bornagain77, but anyone who wishes to educate me further on all matters related to ID. 1. I'm not asking this to argue, but simply out of curiosity. I am curious as to wether or not there is ANY opposition or skepticism to GE, WITHIN the intelligent design community. Sort of like how there is debate between YEC and OEC, I'm wondering if there is also pro GE and anti GE camps. Again, I'm not asking this to dispute the status of GE, but simply out of understanding and looking at all the viewpoints on the issue. If there is no debate or skepticism at all within the ID community on this issue, that's fine, I'm just wondering for the sake of my own enlightenment on the subject, and if it is the case that everyone has sort of met a consensus on the matter, you will hear little else from me regarding it. And sometimes that means me playing devil's advocate ;) In a similar way it was, after all, my understanding of the Darwinian worldview that ultimately caused me to reject it in favor of ID. 2. I’ve been reading some of Bornagain77's post on the Central Genetic Dogma. Do you believe the Central Genetic Dogma has been overthrown, and how so? Are you suggesting that the body modifies our DNA as par the course as normal body responses? You provide superb links and I would be delighted to see links in particular on this issue, because in the context of other post I'm a little more confused on this subject. 3. I brought up some other questions unrelated to GE specifically on my other posts on this page, and everyone is welcome to respond to that stuff if they feel like it. I'm all ears, but sometimes knowledge leaks out the other side :) Thanks again everyone for their patience and critical thinking. That's what makes this forum great.Aspire to Solomon2_{February 14, 2013
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Eric Anderson:
The part about the city “coming down from God out of heaven” could certainly be symbolic/figurative. And you are right that there is all manner of symbolism and allusion in Revelation. However, that doesn’t mean there will be no actual city established.
I might have a tendency to agree were it not for the fact that scripture clearly teaches that the city has already been established. Then add the also indisputable fact that the author of Revelation insists on numerous occasions that the prophecy was soon/shortly to come to pass and that the time was near. Either John, and the one from whom he received the message, was wrong, or we really ought to rethink our interpretation of the book. How is this city, the New Jerusalem, described in the book of Revelation and elsewhere in the New Testament? Does it have within it a tree that people literally eat the leaves of for healing? "On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations." Why, in the new heaven and new earth do the nations still require healing? Apparently on a monthly basis? How is it that the city is also a bride, if we are speaking literally? And immediately following this passage we see: And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place. (Rev. 22:6) "Behold, I am coming soon! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy in this book." (Rev. 22:7) And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. (Rev. 22:10)Mung_{February 14, 2013
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Psalm 82:6 "I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.' But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler." ROYAL TAILOR – HOLD ME TOGETHER – music video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbpJ2FeeJgwbornagain77_{February 14, 2013
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Dollo's law and the death and resurrection of genes: Excerpt: "As the history of animal life was traced in the fossil record during the 19th century, it was observed that once an anatomical feature was lost in the course of evolution it never staged a return. This observation became canonized as Dollo's law, after its propounder, and is taken as a general statement that evolution is irreversible." http://www.pnas.org/content/91/25/12283.full.pdf+html there is actually ample evidence in the fossil record to infer that the principle of Genetic Entropy has been rigidly obeyed over the course of the history of life on this earth. The following article is important in that it shows the principle of Genetic Entropy being obeyed in the fossil record by Trilobites, over the 270 million year history of their life on earth (Note: Trilobites are one of the most prolific 'kinds' found in the fossil record with an extensive worldwide distribution. They appeared abruptly at the base of the Cambrian explosion with no evidence of transmutation from the 'simple' creatures that preceded them, nor is there any evidence they ever produced anything else besides other trilobites during the entire time they are found in the fossil record). The Cambrian's Many Forms Excerpt: "It appears that organisms displayed “rampant” within-species variation “in the ‘warm afterglow’ of the Cambrian explosion,” Hughes said, but not later. “No one has shown this convincingly before, and that’s why this is so important.""From an evolutionary perspective, the more variable a species is, the more raw material natural selection has to operate on,"....(Yet Surprisingly)...."There's hardly any variation in the post-Cambrian," he said. "Even the presence or absence or the kind of ornamentation on the head shield varies within these Cambrian trilobites and doesn't vary in the post-Cambrian trilobites." University of Chicago paleontologist Mark Webster; article on the "surprising and unexplained" loss of variation and diversity for trilobites over the 270 million year time span that trilobites were found in the fossil record, prior to their total extinction from the fossil record about 250 million years ago. http://www.terradaily.com/reports/The_Cambrian_Many_Forms_999.htmlbornagain77_{February 14, 2013
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AtS2, Since, in science, empirical evidence has final say as to whether something is plausible or not, perhaps you can present some evidence as to why you think GE does not hold? So as to match what you desire to be true. i.e.
There is a difference between a cell dying, and an entire species facing unavoidable extinction!
You see AtS2, it is easy to make unsubstantiated claims like the one (of many) you just made in your post, and it is easy to believe them to be true (and difficult to convince someone who desires them to be true that reality is otherwise), but I see no reason to be persuaded that what you desire to be true for reality must necessarily be true. In fact, I have strong empirical reason to believe otherwise,,, to believe that what holds at the most basic level of the cell SHOULD eventually hold for the entire species, and you have presented NOTHING, other than your personal desire for how you would prefer reality to operate, that it should be otherwise! Notes: Here's a interesting talk by Dr. John Sanford. He relates how slightly detrimental mutations, that accumulate each time a cell divides, are the primary reason why our physical/material bodies grow old and die. Genetic Entropy and The Mystery Of the Genome - Dr. John Sanford - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwCu4rh7kUk Notes from John Sanford's preceding video: *3 new mutations every time a cell divides in your body * Average cell of 15 year old has up to 6000 mutations *Average cell of 60 year old has 40,000 mutations Reproductive cells are 'designed' so that, early on in development, they are 'set aside' and thus they do not accumulate mutations as the rest of the cells of our bodies do. Regardless of this protective barrier against the accumulation of slightly detrimental mutations still we find that,,, *60-175 mutations are passed on to each new generation. Human evolution or extinction - discussion on acceptable mutation rate per generation (with clips from Dr. John Sanford) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aC_NyFZG7pM This following video brings the point personally home to us about the effects of genetic entropy: Ageing Process - 80 years in 40 seconds - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSdxYmGro_Y Genetic Entropy - Dr. John Sanford - Evolution vs. Reality - video (Notes in description) http://vimeo.com/35088933 It is also extremely interesting to note, the principle of Genetic Entropy, a principle which stands in direct opposition of the primary claim of neo-Darwinian evolution, lends itself quite well to mathematical analysis by computer simulation: Using Computer Simulation to Understand Mutation Accumulation Dynamics and Genetic Load: Excerpt: We apply a biologically realistic forward-time population genetics program to study human mutation accumulation under a wide-range of circumstances.,, Our numerical simulations consistently show that deleterious mutations accumulate linearly across a large portion of the relevant parameter space. http://bioinformatics.cau.edu.cn/lecture/chinaproof.pdf MENDEL’S ACCOUNTANT: J. SANFORD†, J. BAUMGARDNER‡, W. BREWER§, P. GIBSON¶, AND W. REMINE Using Numerical Simulation to Test the Validity of Neo-Darwinian Theory - 2008 Abstract: Evolutionary genetic theory has a series of apparent “fatal flaws” which are well known to population geneticists, but which have not been effectively communicated to other scientists or the public. These fatal flaws have been recognized by leaders in the field for many decades—based upon logic and mathematical formulations. However population geneticists have generally been very reluctant to openly acknowledge these theoretical problems, and a cloud of confusion has come to surround each issue. Numerical simulation provides a definitive tool for empirically testing the reality of these fatal flaws and can resolve the confusion. The program Mendel’s Accountant (Mendel) was developed for this purpose, and it is the first biologically-realistic forward-time population genetics numerical simulation program. This new program is a powerful research and teaching tool. When any reasonable set of biological parameters are used, Mendel provides overwhelming empirical evidence that all of the “fatal flaws” inherent in evolutionary genetic theory are real. This leaves evolutionary genetic theory effectively falsified—with a degree of certainty which should satisfy any reasonable and open-minded person. http://www.icr.org/i/pdf/technical/Using-Numerical-Simulation-to-Test-the-Validity-of-Neo-Darwinian-Theory.pdf as to fossil record: Dollo's law and the death and resurrection of genes ABSTRACT: Dollo's law, the concept that evolution is not substantively reversible, implies that the degradation of genetic information is sufficiently fast that genes or developmental pathways released from selective pressure will rapidly become nonfunctional. Using empirical data to assess the rate of loss of coding information in genes for proteins with varying degrees of tolerance to mutational change, we show that, in fact, there is a significant probability over evolutionary time scales of 0.5-6 million years for successful reactivation of silenced genes or "lost" developmental programs. Conversely, the reactivation of long (>10 million years)-unexpressed genes and dormant developmental pathways is not possible unless function is maintained by other selective constraints; http://www.pnas.org/content/91/25/12283.full.pdf+html No Positive Selection, No Darwin: A New Non-Darwinian Mechanism for the Origin of Adaptive Phenotypes - November 2011 Excerpt: Hughes now proposes a model he refers to as the plasticity-relaxation-mutation (PRM) model. PRM suggests that adaptive phenotypes arise as follows: (1) there exists a phenotypically plastic trait (i.e., one that changes with the environment, such as sweating in the summer heat); (2) the environment becomes constant, such that the trait assumes only one of its states for a lengthened period of time; and (3) during that time, deleterious mutations accumulate in the unused state of the trait, such that its genetic basis is subsequently lost. ,,, But if most adaptations result from the loss of genetic specifications, how did the traits initially arise? One letter (Chevin & Beckerman 2011) of response to Hughes noted that the PRM "does not explain why the ancestral state should be phenotypically plastic, or why this plasticity should be adaptive in the first place." A. L. Hughes's New Non-Darwinian Mechanism of Adaption Was Discovered and Published in Detail by an ID Geneticist 25 Years Ago - Wolf-Ekkehard Lönnig - December 2011 Excerpt: The original species had a greater genetic potential to adapt to all possible environments. In the course of time this broad capacity for adaptation has been steadily reduced in the respective habitats by the accumulation of slightly deleterious alleles (as well as total losses of genetic functions redundant for a habitat), with the exception, of course, of that part which was necessary for coping with a species' particular environment....By mutative reduction of the genetic potential, modifications became "heritable". -- As strange as it may at first sound, however, this has nothing to do with the inheritance of acquired characteristics. For the characteristics were not acquired evolutionarily, but existed from the very beginning due to the greater adaptability. In many species only the genetic functions necessary for coping with the corresponding environment have been preserved from this adaptability potential. The "remainder" has been lost by mutations (accumulation of slightly disadvantageous alleles) -- in the formation of secondary species. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/12/a_l_hughess_new053881.html Evolutionists Are Losing Ground Badly: Both Pattern and Process Contradict the Aging Theory – Cornelius Hunter - July 2012 Excerpt: Contradictory patterns in biology include the abrupt appearance of so many forms and the diversity explosions followed by a winnowing of diversity in the fossil record. It looks more like the inverse of an evolutionary tree with bursts of new species which then die off over time. http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2012/07/evolutionists-are-losing-ground-badly.htmlbornagain77_{February 14, 2013
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AtS2, Since, in science, empirical evidence has final say as to whether something is plausible or not, perhaps you can present some evidence as to why you think GE does not hold? So as to match what you desire to be true. i.e.
There is a difference between a cell dying, and an entire species facing unavoidable extinction!
You see AtS2, it is easy to make unsubstantiated claims like the one (of many) you just made in your post, and it is easy to believe them to be true (and difficult to convince someone who desires them to be true that reality is otherwise), but I see no reason to be persuaded that what you desire to be true for reality must necessarily be true. In fact, I have strong empirical reason to believe otherwise,,, to believe that what holds at the most basic level of the cell SHOULD eventually hold for the entire species, and you have presented NOTHING, other than your personal desire for how you would prefer reality to operate, that it should be otherwise! Notes: Here's a interesting talk by Dr. John Sanford. He relates how slightly detrimental mutations, that accumulate each time a cell divides, are the primary reason why our physical/material bodies grow old and die. Genetic Entropy and The Mystery Of the Genome - Dr. John Sanford - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwCu4rh7kUk Notes from John Sanford's preceding video: *3 new mutations every time a cell divides in your body * Average cell of 15 year old has up to 6000 mutations *Average cell of 60 year old has 40,000 mutations Reproductive cells are 'designed' so that, early on in development, they are 'set aside' and thus they do not accumulate mutations as the rest of the cells of our bodies do. Regardless of this protective barrier against the accumulation of slightly detrimental mutations still we find that,,, *60-175 mutations are passed on to each new generation. Human evolution or extinction - discussion on acceptable mutation rate per generation (with clips from Dr. John Sanford) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aC_NyFZG7pM This following video brings the point personally home to us about the effects of genetic entropy: Ageing Process - 80 years in 40 seconds - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSdxYmGro_Y Genetic Entropy - Dr. John Sanford - Evolution vs. Reality - video (Notes in description) http://vimeo.com/35088933 It is also extremely interesting to note, the principle of Genetic Entropy, a principle which stands in direct opposition of the primary claim of neo-Darwinian evolution, lends itself quite well to mathematical analysis by computer simulation: Using Computer Simulation to Understand Mutation Accumulation Dynamics and Genetic Load: Excerpt: We apply a biologically realistic forward-time population genetics program to study human mutation accumulation under a wide-range of circumstances.,, Our numerical simulations consistently show that deleterious mutations accumulate linearly across a large portion of the relevant parameter space. http://bioinformatics.cau.edu.cn/lecture/chinaproof.pdf MENDEL’S ACCOUNTANT: J. SANFORD†, J. BAUMGARDNER‡, W. BREWER§, P. GIBSON¶, AND W. REMINE http://mendelsaccount.sourceforge.net Using Numerical Simulation to Test the Validity of Neo-Darwinian Theory - 2008 Abstract: Evolutionary genetic theory has a series of apparent “fatal flaws” which are well known to population geneticists, but which have not been effectively communicated to other scientists or the public. These fatal flaws have been recognized by leaders in the field for many decades—based upon logic and mathematical formulations. However population geneticists have generally been very reluctant to openly acknowledge these theoretical problems, and a cloud of confusion has come to surround each issue. Numerical simulation provides a definitive tool for empirically testing the reality of these fatal flaws and can resolve the confusion. The program Mendel’s Accountant (Mendel) was developed for this purpose, and it is the first biologically-realistic forward-time population genetics numerical simulation program. This new program is a powerful research and teaching tool. When any reasonable set of biological parameters are used, Mendel provides overwhelming empirical evidence that all of the “fatal flaws” inherent in evolutionary genetic theory are real. This leaves evolutionary genetic theory effectively falsified—with a degree of certainty which should satisfy any reasonable and open-minded person. http://www.icr.org/i/pdf/technical/Using-Numerical-Simulation-to-Test-the-Validity-of-Neo-Darwinian-Theory.pdf as to fossil record: Dollo's law and the death and resurrection of genes ABSTRACT: Dollo's law, the concept that evolution is not substantively reversible, implies that the degradation of genetic information is sufficiently fast that genes or developmental pathways released from selective pressure will rapidly become nonfunctional. Using empirical data to assess the rate of loss of coding information in genes for proteins with varying degrees of tolerance to mutational change, we show that, in fact, there is a significant probability over evolutionary time scales of 0.5-6 million years for successful reactivation of silenced genes or "lost" developmental programs. Conversely, the reactivation of long (>10 million years)-unexpressed genes and dormant developmental pathways is not possible unless function is maintained by other selective constraints; http://www.pnas.org/content/91/25/12283.full.pdf+html No Positive Selection, No Darwin: A New Non-Darwinian Mechanism for the Origin of Adaptive Phenotypes - November 2011 Excerpt: Hughes now proposes a model he refers to as the plasticity-relaxation-mutation (PRM) model. PRM suggests that adaptive phenotypes arise as follows: (1) there exists a phenotypically plastic trait (i.e., one that changes with the environment, such as sweating in the summer heat); (2) the environment becomes constant, such that the trait assumes only one of its states for a lengthened period of time; and (3) during that time, deleterious mutations accumulate in the unused state of the trait, such that its genetic basis is subsequently lost. ,,, But if most adaptations result from the loss of genetic specifications, how did the traits initially arise? One letter (Chevin & Beckerman 2011) of response to Hughes noted that the PRM "does not explain why the ancestral state should be phenotypically plastic, or why this plasticity should be adaptive in the first place." A. L. Hughes's New Non-Darwinian Mechanism of Adaption Was Discovered and Published in Detail by an ID Geneticist 25 Years Ago - Wolf-Ekkehard Lönnig - December 2011 Excerpt: The original species had a greater genetic potential to adapt to all possible environments. In the course of time this broad capacity for adaptation has been steadily reduced in the respective habitats by the accumulation of slightly deleterious alleles (as well as total losses of genetic functions redundant for a habitat), with the exception, of course, of that part which was necessary for coping with a species' particular environment....By mutative reduction of the genetic potential, modifications became "heritable". -- As strange as it may at first sound, however, this has nothing to do with the inheritance of acquired characteristics. For the characteristics were not acquired evolutionarily, but existed from the very beginning due to the greater adaptability. In many species only the genetic functions necessary for coping with the corresponding environment have been preserved from this adaptability potential. The "remainder" has been lost by mutations (accumulation of slightly disadvantageous alleles) -- in the formation of secondary species. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/12/a_l_hughess_new053881.html Evolutionists Are Losing Ground Badly: Both Pattern and Process Contradict the Aging Theory – Cornelius Hunter - July 2012 Excerpt: Contradictory patterns in biology include the abrupt appearance of so many forms and the diversity explosions followed by a winnowing of diversity in the fossil record. It looks more like the inverse of an evolutionary tree with bursts of new species which then die off over time. http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2012/07/evolutionists-are-losing-ground-badly.htmlbornagain77_{February 14, 2013
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i shall become the Gould of GE :DAspire to Solomon2_{February 13, 2013
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Sorry, I keep having more questions! how does DNA relate to heritability? And, besides the obvious moral qualms, what does incest do that causes such deleterious effects on offspring?Aspire to Solomon2_{February 13, 2013
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Also, Bornagain77, are you suggesting that death itself is simply GE?Aspire to Solomon2_{February 13, 2013
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The reason why I mentioned Sheldrake, Mae Wan Ho, and Bruce Lipton as possibly being against GE, is that each of them (especially Bruce Lipton and Mae Wan Ho) seem keen on promoting a “positive evolution” of sorts, that GE pretty much throws a bucket of cold ice over.Aspire to Solomon2_{February 13, 2013
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I was also suggesting that our spiritual wellbeing effects our physical wellbeing, and perhaps even the physical wellbeing of other living creatures as well, and that this may be causing much of what we attribute to say, GE. I'm suggesting that positive spiritual wellbeing may mitigate, or to some extent, reverse this. I'm also suggesting that the "rules" applying to physical vs spiritual things is a false dichotomy. If God made all life on earth, then isn't it safe to say that what we refer to as "physical" is just as spiritual as anything else, but perhaps, you could say, in a different wavelength or something. I sometimes think of the earth as God's shadow.Aspire to Solomon2_{February 13, 2013
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"I’m not sure I follow what you are saying here. Has our environment had an adverse impact on our genome because of the adverse impact we have had on our environment?" I think it is reasonable to believe so, and was wondering if this was a distinct possibility. Think of all the toxins we are exposed to, wars, violence, destruction of forestry and animal life, questionable genetic modifications in plants and animals, radiation and other forms of contamination, in addition to our frequently questionable lifestyles and diets...you get the idea. I was also suggesting that what appears to be GE is in fact a causation/correlation error of this.Aspire to Solomon2_{February 13, 2013
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Thanks bornagain77, Mung, tjguy and everyone else for these interesting responses. I have some more questions in light of your answers :D First, thanks bornagain77 for providing those links on NDE. The more we can establish this phenomenon as legit, and not woo woo nonsense for the Pen and Teller cranktheist crowd to make fun of, the better. Regarding GE, you have made some good points, fair enough. Did the logical philosophical link I was portraying regarding GE make sense, because you didn't really address it? Yes, I understand we live in a fallen world, but I was suggesting that GE is not necessary for that to remain so, and that GE is a fundamentally different beast than ordinary illness. There is a difference between a cell dying, and an entire species facing unavoidable extinction! If you don't feel like going into that, that's fine though. Regardless, I am curious as to wether or not there is opposition or skepticism to GE within the intelligent design community, similar, for example, in nature to that between YEC vs OEC. I doubt something with such grave (pun intended) and dramatic implications would not face resistance within the ID community (the darwinian resistance is a given of course). Another question bornagain77. I've been reading some of your other post on the Central Genetic Dogma. Do you believe it has been overthrown, and how so? Are you suggesting that the body modifies our DNA as par the course as normal body responses? Tjguy, thanks for entering the discussion! I have some questions. When you say that God plans to restore things to a pre-fall Garden of Eden state, are you sure about that? I was under the impression an entirey different world would be created, and we would be fundamentally different from Adam and Eve, or for that matter, being human (frankly I feel uncomfortable with such implications, but if the NDE reports are true, than I guess that's no so bad!). But you seem to suggest that we would in fact be giong back to the beginning and starting over, without the Satan shenanigans, so to speak (Which I think is cool). “We humans all belong to Satan’s kingdom from the day we are born because of the sin nature already present in our hearts.” This seems to suggest that humans are inherently evil?? Isn't it more reasonable to hold that people are inherently good, but can choose bad, and bad decisions can be tempting simple because Satan abuses his power over this world to twist healthy desires into unhealthy ones? This may be a cheesy analogy, but I think of him much in the same way as Agent Smith, infecting and corrupting the designed world, and us, into his twisted, cannabilistic image. “it's my world!!!” Also, I'm under the impression that Satan fell to earth before Eve was tempted to eat the apple. Meaning this whole spiritual entrappment would not have occurred if it wasn't for Satan's rebellion (read: God didn't make the tree simply to test people, or invent choice. We could always choose things, but now we could choose bad things, thanks to Satan's dominion on the earth, considering that Satan was originally meant to preside amongst the people on their behalf. In essence, he was always meant to be the Prince of this Earth, but not a corrupted one, as he is now) Eric Anderson, could you tell me what parts of the bible we are supposed to be taken literally and which ones figurately :D It seems theologians say all the convenient parts are literal, all the confusing stuff is figurative :PAspire to Solomon2_{February 13, 2013
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Mung @62:
The new Jerusalem is not a literal/physical city that is going to appear in the sky over our heads. What make you think this language is supposed to be interpreted literally?
Interesting issue. The part about the city "coming down from God out of heaven" could certainly be symbolic/figurative. And you are right that there is all manner of symbolism and allusion in Revelation. However, that doesn't mean there will be no actual city established.Eric Anderson_{February 13, 2013
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Well, if I may interject, here, Mung, 'pain' and 'crying' are immediately and deeply personal and real. Pain has a more metaphorical potential, but in combination with crying, wiping away tears etc, why look for more than the most obvious sense. Isiah is also full of that kind of language, but while I wouldn't even begin to try and understand Revelation, doubtless having tried many years ago to make some sense of it - Isiah, I find astonishing beautiful in just those terms relating to sorrow, grief, tears, etc. But then I find mourning itself, something extraordinarily beautiful. How hauntingly beautiful are the words of Christ's Lament over Jerusalem. In any case,it is one of the most primordial axioms of the faith, that sorrow will be replaced by eternal bliss.Axel_{February 13, 2013
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The book of Revelation says there will be no more death, pain, crying, etc.
The Revelation is full of imagery and allusion. The new Jerusalem is not a literal/physical city that is going to appear in the sky over our heads. What make you think this language is supposed to be interpreted literally?Mung_{February 13, 2013
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Aspire to Solomon, Here is a reply to your original post from a biblical creationist perspective which is not too welcome on this board, but you did open it up to others so here goes:
bornagain77, thank you for the clarification. I can see how Genetic Entropy can theoretically fit into a Christian worldview. While I am no theologian, it seems that at the same time that it could very well not. By that I mean that just because destruction enters the world, it does not necessarily entail that all people are inexplicably, inevitably bound to all or some of the consequences of it. Meaning that before, this perversion didn’t exist; but now it does (thanks to Satan becoming corrupted by his own majesty). What you want to do about said pervasion, however, is something that, God willing, is up to you; it is an option that did not previously exist before the fall, but now has entered the created order, with all the ability to corrupt that goes with it. It seems that Genetic Entropy suggest that evil triumphs over God’s creation,
If you read Genesis, it is clear that God created the world in a state of perfection. At the end of each day, He said that what He had made was good and at the end of the creation of man on day 6, He called it very good. The animals were given vegetation for food as were humans. It was a peaceful, beautiful, and perfect creation, just the way God envisioned it. However, the Bible teaches that God knew that humans would sin and bring a curse on themselves and on His perfect creation. He had in mind a plan before that ever happened to redeem His world both spiritually(redemption through the cross) and eventually physically, when He creates a new heaven and earth. He will restore it to it’s original state of perfection. The book of Revelation says there will be no more death, pain, crying, etc. If there was bloodshed, violence, disease, and killing in God’s original creation, that does not reflect well on Him. Plus, the world would need no restoration at all if that were the case because it would be the way it always was. But this is not what Scripture teaches. These things came into His creation as a result of Adam’s sin. From that time forward, the creation was subjected to bondage(Romans 8:20-) and the creation too is waiting, along with us humans, for the time it will be redeemed. In this sense, genetic entropy fits very well with the Bible. It is simply a part of the curse that God placed on His creation as punishment for sin.
... that his creation is so feeble that the only way we can avoid being swallowed by Big Scary Satan is by God having to sacrifice his own son. It seems to suggest that God made people weak, fickle, depraved creatures who are helpless in the face of evil, as opposed to majestic, wondrous creations who, upon recognition of Christ’s glory, can triumph over evil and move mountains, who fear nothing but God, and posses an enormous opportunity and power to be active, as opposed to passive, participants in Good winning over evil, which has no legitimate place or purpose in creation one so ever. Does my objection and counter make sense? Also seeing the absolutely enormous amount of environmental destruction that man has inflicted upon himself, is it not possible that GE is a correlation causation error?
It was God’s plan to sacrifice His own Son from before the foundation of the world, before He even created the world. This was the extent of His love for us in that He still created us even though He knew it would mean that the second member of the Trinity would become a man and die a violent death to redeem man. Satan became the ruler of this world when Adam sinned although God is still over Him, but that is what he is called in the Bible. God did not make man weak, fickle or depraved. On the contrary, they were perfect, strong, smart, and without sin, but they did have a free will with which they could choose to do right or wrong. Having sinned, they brought their problems on themselves. Now we are weak and depraved creatures, but it was not like that in the beginning. Now we do need a Savior because we are incapable of defeating Satan ourselves and cleansing our hearts of sin. We humans all belong to Satan's kingdom from the day we are born because of the sin nature already present in our hearts. But the cross made it possible for us to be rescued from the kingdom of darkness and be placed into the Kingdom of His beloved Son, the kingdom of light. In the beginning, Adam & Eve’s children had to marry each other but that was no problem because it was the natural thing to do. And they had hardly any genetic defects or mutations so there was no danger whatsoever in that happening. They were not the result of a long process of evolution which, if true, would mean that their genome was already polluted from the start due to the millions of years of evolution they had already gone through. But, when Moses came along and God made a covenant with the nation of Israel, now for the first time, this marrying of close relatives was forbidden. By this time, mutations would have built up in their genomes to a certain extent which made such marriages more dangerous – although still not near as dangerous as today.
Also seeing the absolutely enormous amount of environmental destruction that man has inflicted upon himself, is it not possible that GE is a correlation causation error?
I'm not sure I follow what you are saying here. Has our environment had an adverse impact on our genome because of the adverse impact we have had on our environment? Well, pollution for instance can cause problems for us and perhaps if severe enough it can also cause genetic problems, but that would be over and above the problem of genetic entropy that Sanford is talking about. I don't think it would significantly effect the human genome unless you live in such an environment.
And are you familiar with Chris Ashcraft, because I think his concept of Genetic Variability by Design may counter GE? Thanks!
I think BA did a good job answering this point.tjguy_{February 13, 2013
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"And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him." Gen. 5:24bornagain77_{February 12, 2013
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correction: 3. Basically, you are bucking the second law of Thermodynamics in your desire that we should somehow transcend the effects of entropic decay. There is nothing ‘personal’ about it, we all grow old and die no matter how spiritual we are (of course Then there was Enoch :) ), All I can really do to show you this is quote scripture and suggest a inspirational song for you:
Romans 8:18-21 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. Evanescence – The Other Side (Lyric Video) http://www.vevo.com/watch/evanescence/the-other-side-lyric-video/USWV41200024?source=instantsearch
Of note, to counter balance all the negative NDE's I listed here are some very encouraging positive one:
Mary Jo Rapini Sees the Light, plus reporter Bob Woodruff's out of body experience - video http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/mary-jo-rapini-sees-light-bob-woodruff-former-nurse-skeptic-believer-primetime-nightline-14227538
Here is the Near Death Experience TV show, with Mary Jo Rapini and Bob Woodruff, that was on ABC in August 2011:
Beyond Belief: The Other Side - video http://abc.go.com/watch/primetime-nightline-beyond-belief/SH55131205/VD55138047/the-other-side?rfr=google
bornagain77_{February 12, 2013
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1. I am not aware of their views to GE, but they are not Dogmatic materialists/atheists so the GE point would be somewhat unimportant to them. 2. As far as the science is concerned, sure good living slows down going through death's door, but GE (aging of cells) happens to everybody. 3. Basically, you are bucking the second law of Thermodynamics in your desire that we should somehow transcend the effects of entropic decay. There is nothing 'personal' about it,, All I can really do to show you this is quote scripture and suggest a inspirational song for you:
Of note, to counter balance all the negative NDE's I listed here are some very encouraging positive one: Mary Jo Rapini Sees the Light, plus reporter Bob Woodruff's out of body experience - video http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/mary-jo-rapini-sees-light-bob-woodruff-former-nurse-skeptic-believer-primetime-nightline-14227538 Here is the Near Death Experience TV show, with Mary Jo Rapini and Bob Woodruff, that was on ABC in August 2011: Beyond Belief: The Other Side - video http://abc.go.com/watch/primetime-nightline-beyond-belief/SH55131205/VD55138047/the-other-side?rfr=google Romans 8:18-21 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. Evanescence – The Other Side (Lyric Video) http://www.vevo.com/watch/evanescence/the-other-side-lyric-video/USWV41200024?source=instantsearch
4bornagain77_{February 12, 2013
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Near-Death and Out-of-Body Experiences in a Melanesian Society by Dorothy E. Counts: Excerpt: "When you were in your village you claimed to be an important man. But in this little place you have been eaten up by a knife, a dog, and a pig. And now fire will utterly destroy you." When the loudspeaker had finished, a fire blazed up and destroyed the remains. http://anthropology.uwaterloo.ca/WNB/NearDeath.html Several studies (Pasricha, 1986, Schorer, 1985-86) & Kellehear, 1993) Murphy 1999,2001) have indicated that the phenomenologies of NDEs is culture-bound. (Of Note: Judeo-Christian Culture NDEs are by far the most pleasant "phenomena") http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindestxt.htm Researching Muslim NDEs, on the web at the NDERF home page, I find that there are only a handful of Muslim NDE experiences out of the thousands of NDE's they have listed on their web site. There is only one really deep Muslim NDE in which there is a reference to "the Light". Not surprisingly, this NDE occurred to a teenage boy. In the handful of somewhat deep adult Muslim NDEs that I have read about, the Muslim NDES never mentioned "the Light", "Supreme Being" or a "Being of Light". If this holds steady for all adult Muslim NDEs, then this will fall into stark contrast to the majority of deep Judeo/Christian NDE testimonies of adults for the western world. This is of related interest: Muslim near death experience sees Jesus (Isa) becomes Christian Pt 1 - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TC-TLFYNCQ Part 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F70Ray8Mdn4 Famous Muslim Leader accepts Lord Jesus Christ....Dr Daniel Shayesteh - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-85CJ1fWqT0 Here is a fairly disturbing Jewish NDE: Jewish near death experience part 1 - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0Ns3D6Tpfs Of note: The Buddhist concept of reality is that nothing in this physical world is real. People consist of a "bundle" of habits, memories, sensations, desires, and so forth, which together delude people into thinking that he or she consists of a stable, lasting self. This false self is what reincarnates body after body. In Buddhism, life in a corporeal body is the source of all suffering. Hence, the goal is to obtain liberation. This means abandoning the false sense of self so that the bundle of memories and impulses disintegrates, leaving nothing to reincarnate and hence nothing to experience pain. "Nirvana" is the Buddhist term for liberation. Nirvana literally means extinction - an extinction that allows a person to become one with all there is – to become "God" (Buddha). To attain Nirvana, one must face and accept the concept that physical reality is not real; true reality comes through self-extinction which results in becoming one with the Clear Light. http://www.near-death.com/archetypal.html Greyson and Bush (1996) classified 50 Western reports of distressing NDEs into three types: * The most common type included the same features as the pleasurable type such as an out-of-body experience and rapid movement through a tunnel or void toward a light but the NDEr, usually because of feeling out of control of what was happening, experienced the features as frightening. * The second, less common type included an acute awareness of nonexistence or of being completely alone forever in an absolute void. Sometimes the person received a totally convincing message that the real world including themselves never really existed. (note* according to one preliminary study, a similar type of this NDE may be very common among the Buddhist culture of China) * The third and rarest type included hellish imagery such as an ugly or foreboding landscape; demonic beings; loud, annoying noises; frightening animals; and other beings in extreme distress. Only rarely have such NDErs themselves felt personally tormented. Distressing Near-Death Experiences: The estimated incidence of distressing NDEs (dNDEs) for western cultures has ranged from 1% to 15% of all NDEs (Bonenfant, 2001). The results of prospective studies in which the researchers interviewed everyone who experienced cardiac arrest in one or more hospitals during a period of at least several months are noteworthy. In the four prospective studies conducted between 1984 and 2001, involving a total of 130 NDErs, none reported distressing experiences. This finding seems to confirm that the experience is relatively rare in western cultures. http://www.iands.org/nde_index/ndes/distressing.htmlbornagain77_{February 12, 2013
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AtS2, as to this comment:
"My only concern with NDE (Near Death Experiences) is whether or not they are religiously consistent? It would undermine the credibility of the accounts if, for example, some people have Christian NDEs, others pagan ones, others islamic ones, others jewish, bhuddist, islamic, hindu, new age, etc. Aside from that though, it seems reasonable enough, and it is a nice way to soften the blow of GE!"
Well as would be expected from a Christian perspective, All foreign, non-Judeo-Christian culture, NDE studies I have looked at have a extreme rarity of encounters with 'The Being Of Light' and tend to be very unpleasant NDE's save for the few pleasant children's NDEs of those cultures that I've seen (It seems there is indeed an 'age of accountability'). Here is A Small Glimpse At The Preponderance Of Negative Near Death Experiences Being Found In Foreign, Non-Judeo-Christian, Cultures: Near-Death Experiences in Thailand: Excerpt: The Light seems to be absent in Thai NDEs. So is the profound positive affect found in so many Western NDEs. The most common affect in our collection is negative. Unlike the negative affect in so many Western NDEs (cf. Greyson & Bush, 1992), that found in Thai NDEs (in all but case #11) has two recognizable causes. The first is fear of `going'. The second is horror and fear of hell. It is worth noting that although half of our collection include seeing hell (cases 2,6,7,9,10) and being forced to witness horrific tortures, not one includes the NDEer having been subjected to these torments themselves. (Murphy 99) http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindes.htm Near Death Experience Thailand Asia - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8M5J3zWG5g Near-Death Experiences in Thailand: Discussion of case histories By Todd Murphy, 1999: Excerpt: We would suggest that the near-constant comparisons with the most frequently reported types of NDEs tends to blind researchers to the features of NDEs which are absent in these NDEs. Tunnels are rare, if not absent. The panoramic Life Review appears to be absent. Instead, our collection shows people reviewing just a few karmically-significant incidents. Perhaps they symbolize behavioral tendencies, the results of which are then experienced as determinative of their rebirths. These incidents are read out to them from a book. There is no Being of Light in these Thai NDEs, although The Buddha does appear in a symbolic form, in case #6. Yama is present during this truncated Life Review, as is the Being of Light during Western life reviews, but Yama is anything but a being of light. In popular Thai depictions, he is shown as a wrathful being, and is most often remembered in Thai culture for his power to condemn one to hell. Some of the functions of Angels and guides are also filled by Yamatoots. They guide, lead tours of hell, and are even seen to grant requests made by the experient. http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindes.htm A Comparative view of Tibetan and Western Near-Death Experiences by Lawrence Epstein University of Washington: Excerpt: Episode 5: The OBE systematically stresses the 'das-log's discomfiture, pain, disappointment, anger and disillusionment with others and with the moral worth of the world at large. The acquisition of a yid-lus and the ability to travel instantaneously are also found here. Episode 6: The 'das-log, usually accompanied by a supernatural guide, tours bar-do, where he witnesses painful scenes and meets others known to him. They give him messages to take back. Episode 7: The 'das-log witnesses trials in and tours hell. The crimes and punishments of others are explained to him. Tortured souls also ask him to take back messages to the living. http://www.case.edu/affil/tibet/booksAndPapers/neardeath.html?nw_view=1281960224&amp India Cross-cultural study by Dr. Ian Stevenson of the University of Virginia Medical School and Dr. Satwant Pasricha of the Institute of Mental Health and Neurosciences in Bangalore, India Excerpt: "Suddenly I saw two big pots of boiling water, although there was no fire, no firewood, and no fireplace. Then, the man pushed me with his hand and said, "You'd better hurry up and go back." When he touched me, I suddenly became aware of how hot his hand was. Then I realised why the pots were boiling. The heat was coming from his hands! When I regained consciousness, I had a severe burning sensation in my left arm." Mangal still had a mark on his left arm that he claims was a result of the burning. About a quarter of Dr Pasricha's interviewees reported such marks. http://www.rediff.com/news/1999/apr/06pas.htm Near-Death Experiences of Hindus Pasricha and Stevenson's research Except: "Two persons caught me and took me with them. I felt tired after walking some distance; they started to drag me. My feet became useless. There was a man sitting up. He looked dreadful and was all black. He was not wearing any clothes. He said in a rage [to the attendants who had brought Vasudev] "I had asked you to bring Vasudev the gardener.,,, In reply to questions about details, Vasudev said that the "black man" had a club and used foul language. Vasudev identified him as Yamraj, the Hindu god of the dead. http://www.near-death.com/hindu.html Near-Death Experiences Among Survivors of the 1976 Tangshan Earthquake (Chinese) Excerpt: Our subjects reported NDE phemenological items not mentioned, or rarely mentioned in NDE's reported from other countries: sensations of the world being exterminated or ceasing to exist, a sense of weightlessness, a feeling of being pulled or squeezed, ambivalence about death, a feeling of being a different person, or a different kind of person and unusual scents. The predominant phemenological features in our series were feeling estranged from the body as if it belonged to someone else, unusually vivid thoughts, loss of emotions, unusual bodily sensations, life seeming like a dream, a feeling of dying,,, These are not the same phemenological features most commonly found by researchers in other countries. Greyson (1983) reported the most common phemenological feature of American NDE's to be a feeling of peace, joy, time stopping, experiencing an unearthly realm of existence, a feeling of cosmic unity, and a out of body experience. http://www.newdualism.org/nde-papers/Zhi-ying/Zhi-ying-Journal%20of%20Near-Death%20Studies_1992-11-39-48.pdf The Japanese find death a depressing experience - From an item by Peter Hadfield in the New Scientist (Nov. 30th 1991) Excerpt: A study in Japan shows that even in death the Japanese have an original way of looking at things. Instead of seeing 'tunnels of light' or having 'out of body' experiences, near-dead patients in Japanese hospitals tend to see rather less romantic images, according to researchers at Kyorin University. According to a report in the Mainichi newspaper, a group of doctors from Kyorin has spent the past year documenting the near-death experiences of 17 patients. They had all been resuscitated from comas caused by heart attacks, strokes, asthma or drug poisoning. All had shown minimal signs of life during the coma. Yoshia Hata, who led the team, said that eight of the 17 recalled 'dreams', many featuring rivers or ponds. Five of those patients had dreams which involved fear, pain and suffering. One 50-year-old asthmatic man said he had seen himself wade into a reservoir and do a handstand in the shallows. 'Then I walked out of the water and took some deep breaths. In the dream, I was repeating this over and over.' Another patient, a 73-year-old woman with cardiac arrest, saw a cloud filled with dead people. 'It was a dark, gloomy day. I was chanting sutras. I believed they could be saved if they chanted sutras, so that is what I was telling them to do.' Most of the group said they had never heard of Near-Death Experiences before. http://www.pureinsight.org/node/4 Dr. Satwant Pasricha Institute of Mental Health and Neurosciences in Bangalore, India, findings of a survey of NDEs conducted in a region of southern India. A population of 17,192 persons was surveyed and 2,207 respondents were interviewed for identification of NDE cases. Twenty-six persons were reported to have died and revived; 16 (62%) of these having had NDEs. Thus the prevalence rate of NDEs is found to be less than 1 in a thousand for the general population of India. Whereas the rate in America is commonly given to be 5% (1 in twenty) for the general population. http://medind.nic.in/imvw/imvw17843.htmlbornagain77_{February 12, 2013
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Aspire to Solomon2, I think there is some evidence to support the idea that behavior can have an effect on DNA through epigenetics though I'm not aware of any studies involving the effects of sexual activity on epigenetics.Mung_{February 12, 2013
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Somewhat unrelated question, but was curious what yalls thoughts were on this matter. One of my freinds who wants to be a doctor suggested that sexual diseases were created directly through sexual activity with multiple partners. His explanation was that sex created a bond between two people, uniting and changing their DNA. When this bond is broken with additional DNA from additional partners, or in the case of homosexuality, with DNA from someone of the same gender, it causes a disruption that opens people up to bacterial infections. Does this sound like a theory that may have some basis??Aspire to Solomon2_{February 11, 2013
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Thank you all for your thoughts, and I hope I didn't imply that I only wanted Mung and Bornagain77's thoughts on the matter, I would appreciate any contributions in this discussion! Mung, I appreciate your opinions on this subject but I must respectfully disagree with your assertions. Bornagain77 I have several questions and comments: Thank you for your contributions, and I found your NDE posts wonderful, and inspiring. My only concern with NDE is wether or not they are religiously consistent? It would undermine the credibility of the accounts if, for example, some people have Christian NDEs, others pagan ones, others islamic ones, others jewish, bhuddist, islamic, hindu, new age, etc. Aside from that though, it seems reasonable enough, and it is a nice way to soften the blow of GE! :) Nonetheless, your going to have to drag me kicking and screaming to get me to accept GE :D Below I will list some of my objections, and some general commentary. 1. The reason why I brought up Bruce Lipton, Sheldrake, and Mae Wan Ho is because they don't strike me as adamantly anti darwinian folks who would also not accept GE, and I was curious if you were aware of their views (or implications of their views) as it relates to GE. 2. As I suggested earlier, is it possible that what we are seeing is a correlation/causation error? Meaning that GE is not actually a ongoing, inevitable part of the created order so much as something that occurs in many places for many different reasons? Is it possible, for example, that our daily commitment to good (by allowing the holy spirit to intervene in our lives, asking for forgiveness, etc.) or evil (maybe even demonic interference) perhaps some direct impact on the natural order that we overlooking? And one of those impacts is GE? I am suggesting that, for example, people of faith may be able to mitigate, or to some extent, reverse this sort of destruction. 3. General philsopical/thoelogical implications and challenges: I see several problems with accepting GE on this matter. A. I have always believed that God is love, love translates into creation, creation into life, and goodness is all things that recognize and reinforce this chain. God is not arbitrary, he does not expect us to do things for the mere sake of doing them, but because they ARE Good, because they stem from Him, and as His created beings, we are, also by extension, inherently good as well (though capable of doing bad). He wants us to obey him, not because there is anything magical about obedience, but because he IS Good, and in order to aspire to goodness, obedience, like faith, logically follows and is simply necessecary. It would be foolish to do otherwise! To do otherwise is to undermine the very concept of a loving relationship, since he is, by definition, love. He is not a dictator (Which is not loving), He is a giver of goodness (because goodness flows from Him), who longs for his children (who, by extension are good) who were created in His goodness, to embrace Him and the good gifts he has given. I am having difficulty articulating my thoughts on this, but I hope this conception makes some sense. That said, GE seems to suggest there is no inherent connection between virtue and the source of said virtue, Himself. If virtuous thought and action has no inherent effect on human continuity through it's creation sustaining connection to the source of all virtue, God, than what makes said things virtuous? The ten commandments for example, make much sense if you consider that they are all commands that reinforce and sustain life. But GE suggest that these commandments do not reinforce and sustain life by suggesting that extinction is inevitable anyways. In what sense, then, are the commandments meaningful? Why not make a commandment asking people to hold basket weaving sessions every Wendsday? GE suggest that there is little difference between the two. GE undermines the self evident nature of virtue . And no, GE is not the same thing as death, disease, etc. Those things are clearly evils imposed on humanity, but separate from it. But GE suggests that destruction in innate to humanity itself. But how can destruction be innate to created beings? Do my objections make sense? Now I can imagine you saying “well our purpose here is to glorify God.” To that I could reply “Yes, I agree wholeheartedly. But how can creatures who posses not a trace of glory do such a thing?” “Through Jesus Christ.” “Then it isn't us glorifying him. It's Jesus. Of what consequence is to God that we exist in this relationship? What then, gives us value in the eyes of God? On what basis can anything we do be considered valuable in the eyes of God? On what basis is God pleased with anything about us at all? How can God love that which has no worth? How can or why would a glorified being even make such creatures?” What makes our choices here meaningful if they contain no virtue in of themselves? If we are not worthy of praise through our pursuit of virtue (which entails pursuit of a relationship with God), then how can we be held responsible for evil? The message seems to suggest that If we go to Heaven, it's because Jesus is great (as opposed to our acceptance of Jesus's greatness). But on the other hand we always told that if we go to hell, it's our fault. these premises contradict each other. They can't both be true. Either our choices have a negative or positive bearing on our future, or we have no choice at all, which in turn calls into question what difference anything we do makes, or why God would even care. In short, my logic seems this. GE destroys any basis for virtue. If virtue is baseless, then so are our choices. If our choices are baseless, they contain no value. If they contain no value, then it seems, that we contain no value, since we not only have none in ourselves, but also posses no means of achieving it. If we have no value, then it stands to reason that we aren't created beings, because only created beings can posses value. And if we aren't created beings, than their can't be a creator. Without a creator, their can't be salvation, because there is nothing to be saved from. I hope this objection makes sense. I personally believe that there is a God. But I am arguing that GE draws this into question. Would love to hear your responses!Aspire to Solomon2_{February 11, 2013
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1. That's about it, save for the last part (ethical dilemma there). 2. Designer babies? HMMM ethical dilemma again, and yet still no relief from GE 3. No, it is only futile for those whose eyes are fixed on this present world. In Theism every little thing we do in this life matters as to eternal consequences (lessons) as is illustrated in the life reviews of Near Death Experiences: Near Death Experience – The Tunnel, The Light, The Life Review – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4200200/ 4. Our bodies (brains) create no information, it is our minds which create information. 5. There is nothing that can be done about it even taking into account the most draconian methods of population control. And who would want to live in a society like that anyway? 6. The majority of changes to a genome are 'directed mutations' (J.Shapiro), yet the fact of the matter is that material processes are utterly incapable of generating even trivial levels of functional information to escape the relentless grip of entropic processes. But, as a Christian you should not be as worried as you seem to be,,, for the Good News is that Christ really did conquer the grave! 1 Corinthians 15:55 "Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?" Natalie Grant - Alive (Resurrection music video) http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=KPYWPGNX notes: Condensed notes on The Authenticity of the Shroud of Turin https://docs.google.com/document/d/15IGs-5nupAmTdE5V-_uPjz25ViXbQKi9-TyhnLpaC9U/edit In The Presence Of Almighty God - The NDE of Mickey Robinson - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045544 Near-Death Experiences: Putting a Darwinist's Evidentiary Standards to the Test - Dr. Michael Egnor - October 15, 2012 Excerpt: Indeed, about 20 percent of NDE's are corroborated, which means that there are independent ways of checking about the veracity of the experience. The patients knew of things that they could not have known except by extraordinary perception -- such as describing details of surgery that they watched while their heart was stopped, etc. Additionally, many NDE's have a vividness and a sense of intense reality that one does not generally encounter in dreams or hallucinations.,,, The most "parsimonious" explanation -- the simplest scientific explanation -- is that the (Near Death) experience was real. Tens of millions of people have had such experiences. That is tens of millions of more times than we have observed the origin of species (or origin of life), which is never.,,, The materialist reaction, in short, is unscientific and close-minded. NDE's show fellows like Coyne at their sneering unscientific irrational worst. Somebody finds a crushed fragment of a fossil and it's earth-shaking evidence. Tens of million of people have life-changing spiritual experiences and it's all a big yawn. Note: Dr. Egnor is professor and vice-chairman of neurosurgery at the State University of New York at Stony Brook. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/10/near_death_expe_1065301.html "A recent analysis of several hundred cases showed that 48% of near-death experiencers reported seeing their physical bodies from a different visual perspective. Many of them also reported witnessing events going on in the vicinity of their body, such as the attempts of medical personnel to resuscitate them (Kelly et al., 2007)." Kelly, E. W., Greyson, B., & Kelly, E. F. (2007). Unusual experiences near death and related phenomena. In E. F. Kelly, E. W. Kelly, A. Crabtree, A. Gauld, M. Grosso, & B. Greyson, Irreducible mind (pp. 367-421). Lanham, MD: Rowman & Littlefield.bornagain77_{February 10, 2013
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5. If GE is true, this is of grave importance. Why on earth is this not like “A Big Deal”???
Because there is nothing special about us. We are just another species among countless others, and we, like them, are all destined to extinction. We could adopt eugenics. Attempt to slow, halt, or reverse "the tide" based upon perceived imperfections. After all, man has always been such an excellent judge of perfection.Mung_{February 10, 2013
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In general, I've always thought of death as simply being a disease that has not yet found a cure, not something that was intrinsic to life itself; that would strike me as a logical contradictionAspire to Solomon_{February 10, 2013
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