Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

The “is-ought” problem. Is it a true dichotomy or a deceptive bluff?

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It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble, it’s what you do know that just ain’t so. — Mark Twain

According to the overrated philosopher, David Hume, we should not try to draw logical conclusions about objective morality based on our knowledge of the real world. This was his smug way of claiming that humans are incapable of knowing the difference between right and wrong.

Through the years, his devoted followers have tweaked his message into a flat out declaration: We cannot derive an “ought to” (a moral code) from the “is.” (the way things are). Just to make sure that we don’t misunderstand, they characterize this formulation as “Hume’s Law.”

The only problem with this philosophy is that it is tragically, clumsily, and inexcusably—wrong. On the contrary, we can learn a great deal about the moral law from the observable facts of nature as long as we acknowledge the point that some truths are self-evident.

Unfortunately, hyper-skeptics cannot grasp this point because they first fail to understand that morality is a measure of, and is dependent on, what is good. If there is no (objective) good, then morality cannot exist. But we know that some things, such as life, are obviously good for humans – universally, absolutely, and objectively good. It is the same for goods that flow from life, such as the desire to survive and reproduce. As would be expected of objectively good things, they exist in a hierarchy, which means that we can differentiate between lower goods (wants) and higher goods (needs).

People want food that is pleasing to the palate, for example, but they need food that meets their nutritional requirements. The latter good is more important than the former, even if it is not perceived to be so. If one allows his desire for pleasure to overpower his desire for good health, he will eventually lose the capacity to be pleased and the opportunity to be healthy. It is self-evident to any rational person that the desire for long-term health is a higher good than the desire for momentary pleasure.

So it is with sex. Humans may want to experience immediate physical gratification, but if they ignore the higher needs, such as the desire for love and respect, they will harm themselves and others. Sexual responsibility is less about submitting to the technology of birth control and more about responding to the challenge of self-disciplined behavior.

Again, through nature, we learn that the good of procreation is made possible by the complementarity of the species. That is why a marriage is properly defined as the union of one man and one woman: the difference between them allows them to unite in one flesh. Two members of the same sex cannot become one flesh because it is the complementarity that makes the oneness possible. From Biology, we also discover that sex has a specific function, which means that it can be misused by those who do not respect its intended purpose.

From the all this information about the “is,” (complementarity and biology) we can derive four distinct moral conclusions: [a] Men should not have sex with men. [b] Women should not have sex with women. [c] Same sex marriage cannot and does not exist. [d] Any law that defines so-called “gay marriage” as a true marriage is an evil lie and should be resisted.

In a broader sense, the lower goods, such as fun, pleasure, and delight, are designed as an incentive for pursuing the higher goods, such as love, self-esteem, self-control, meaning, and purpose, which are the ones that matter most in any discussion of morality. Because we really need them, they are good for us and we ought to have them. As Mortimer Adler says, we ought to desire whatever is really good for us and nothing else.

From the testimony of social scientists, we learn that humans are social beings, so we may safely conclude that they ought to reproduce, build families and establish communities. In every area of life, there are legitimate moral needs that ought to be pursued and illegitimate wants that ought to be eschewed.

Moral growth, therefore, involves a definitive behavioral strategy: We should learn to like what is good for us and to dislike what is bad for us. In other words, we should form good habits so that they will crowd out the bad habits. Nature not only teaches us about the need for virtue, it also helps us to acquire it through practice. Psychologists tell us that it takes three to six weeks to form a new habit.

The take home message, then, should be clear: Beware of the hyper-skeptical doctrine that goes by the name of Hume’s “law.” The so-called “is – ought” dichotomy is a deceptive bluff. It poses no intellectual challenge to the natural moral law or the human capacity to apprehend it.

 

 

Comments
ET:
Bob O’H- In many places the driver’s license is the only ID. And that ID has been OK to use to board planes since ID’s have been required.
You need to keep up with the times.Mung
June 28, 2018
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Bob O'H- In many places the driver's license is the only ID. And that ID has been OK to use to board planes since ID's have been required.ET
June 28, 2018
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BO'H: my local Driver's Licence is meant as a photo ID and OECS region travel document, complete with data link that comes of mag stripe. It uses holographic features to defeat fraud and includes my signature also; holograms may be the best on balance authentication of documents as legitimate. It gives my address of residence (which is one word) and other available docs -- utility bills etc confirm. The DL was validated on Passport in terms of further data that is also regionally accessible. I suspect Immigration Officers would be able to pull up scans of my P/P application, birth certificate, police notifications, etc etc etc. So, I have reason for my comment about bureaucratic nonsense. KFkairosfocus
June 28, 2018
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BO'H: I also draw your attention to 89, in which I argue that there is a framework of self-evident principles of the natural moral law that can give a point of beginning. They help us understand is, ought and the world-roots level fusion that must obtain for such law to be more than a fatal grand delusion that utterly undermines responsible, rational, morally governed freedom. KFkairosfocus
June 28, 2018
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SB, is that what is now 54? KFkairosfocus
June 28, 2018
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BO'H: Why have you misrepresented what I said as obfuscation? I draw your attention to my 78 (which is i/l/o my 76):
MS, I suggest that — given relevant general considerations on the nature of ethics — you need to start with fundamental issues that are prior to particular moral (or rhetorical) concerns. Specifically, with generally framed warrant for oughtness; there is no point trying to warrant oughtness within a framework that implies that might and manipulation make ‘right,’ ‘rights,’ ‘truth,’ ‘reason,’ ‘warrant,’ knowledge’ etc, including knowledge on issues of oughtness including ‘good,’ ‘bad’ and ‘worse.’ Here, we start with, how is the is-ought gap bridged, given that it is central to moral government, which we cannot evade starting with duties of care to truthfulness and sound reasoning? Absent a clear resolution of such from your apparent side, there is no basis for any responsible discussion, much less one on matters of philosophical theology and linked ethics and points of concern including matters that are often raised by those more concerned to play at putting God in the dock and/or Christian-baiting than serious discussion on matters that are outside the usual remit of this blog. That, is how broken discourse now is in our civilisation, and the breaking came from your side. So, no, I will not try to build without a foundation where there is common ground for moral government in a world where we are finite, fallible, morally struggling and too often ill-willed. Your side broke it, your side now needs to fix it. Just as, your side has utterly undermined rationality and even ontology to the point that what IS, is open for debate even with mathematics. I have already put on the table a moral plumbline test, the unfortunately real-world case that it is self-evidently wrong and evil and wicked to waylay, kidnap, bind, gag, sexually assault and murder a young child on the way home from school. This case can help fix the rot, by clarifying duty and its roots. Likewise, for cause, I have little confidence in the moral judgements made in an age where many who wish to embark on topics such as you raise are implicated in enabling the ongoing worst holocaust in history, the slaughter of a million more of our living posterity in the womb at the rate of another million per WEEK; on a baseline of 800+ millions over 40+ years. For cause, I consider that the mindset behind such is debased and utterly bankrupt. So, when we are satisfied that we are on the same page, there is reason for confidence that we can have a responsible discussion; otherwise, it is a waste of effort to try to debate the difference in ontological status between God and man, the issues of nations becoming plagues on the earth when the cup of their iniquity has brimmed over, the willful hardness of heart to moral duty, the judgements of consequences of moral follly, the role of prophetic warning and of protecting wider humanity from a spreading taint, or the whys and wherefores of civil codes, much less the way our day views moral perversities and the onward willful destruction of foundational institutions such as marriage, etc.
I trust that it is now sufficiently clear that I am objecting to a rhetorical trap driven by utter undermining of the basis for responsible, reasonable discussion. Your side broke it, your side must fix it if there is to be a basis for discussion. And to point out this is just the opposite of obfuscation or evasion. KF PS: It should be clear that the brokenness applies to IS and OUGHT alike, leading to utter chaos.kairosfocus
June 28, 2018
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ET @ 83 - No. It's not meant to be an ID. Mung @ 87 - well, yes. It could be something more complicated, but then I would expect kf to explain that it is more complicated. Instead he obfuscates, and then says that it's up to other people to do things first. It seems strange that he's unable to make a statement about good and evil because, in his view, some other people have wrong views?Bob O'H
June 27, 2018
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@58 is a post by Barry.Mung
June 27, 2018
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kairosfocus, Bob O'H, I answered Mat Spirit's question early on 58. He had no response. He is just trolling around.StephenB
June 27, 2018
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F/N: Let me again put on the table what the relativists evidently will do and say anything but address: _________________ >> normally responsive people will at least grudgingly respect the following summary of core, conscience attested morality from the pen of Paul:
Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them . . . . Rom 13:8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong [NIV, "harm"] to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. [ESV]
Where, John Locke, in grounding modern liberty and what would become democratic self-government of a free people premised on upholding the civil peace of justice, in Ch 2 Sec. 5 of his second treatise on civil Government [c. 1690] cites "the judicious [Anglican canon, Richard] Hooker" from his classic Ecclesiastical Polity of 1594 on, as he explains how the principles of neighbour-love are inscribed in our hearts, becoming evident to the eye of common good sense and reasonableness:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man's hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8 and alluding to Justinian's synthesis of Roman Law in Corpus Juris Civilis that also brings these same thoughts to bear:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [Eccl. Polity,preface, Bk I, "ch." 8, p.80, cf. here. Emphasis added.]
We may elaborate on Paul, Locke, Hooker and Aristotle, laying out several manifestly evident and historically widely acknowledged core moral principles for which the attempted denial is instantly and patently absurd for most people -- that is, they are arguably self-evident (thus, warranted and objective) moral truths; not just optional opinions. So also, it is not only possible to
(a) be in demonstrable moral error, but also (b) there is hope that such moral errors can be corrected by appealing to manifestly sound core principles of the natural moral law.
For instance: 1] The first self evident moral truth is that we are inescapably under the government of ought.
(This is manifest in even an objector's implication in the questions, challenges and arguments that s/he would advance, that we are in the wrong and there is something to be avoided about that. That is, even the objector inadvertently implies that we OUGHT to do, think, aim for and say the right. Not even the hyperskeptical objector can escape this truth. Patent absurdity on attempted denial.)
2] Second self evident truth, we discern that some things are right and others are wrong by a compass-sense we term conscience which guides our thought. (Again, objectors depend on a sense of guilt/ urgency to be right not wrong on our part to give their points persuasive force. See what would be undermined should conscience be deadened or dismissed universally? Sawing off the branch on which we all must sit.) 3] Third, were this sense of conscience and linked sense that we can make responsibly free, rational decisions to be a delusion, we would at once descend into a status of grand delusion in which there is no good ground for confidence in our self-understanding. That is, we look at an infinite regress of Plato’s cave worlds: once such a principle of grand global delusion is injected, there is no firewall so the perception of level one delusion is subject to the same issue, and this level two perception too, ad infinitum; landing in patent absurdity. 4] Fourth, we are objectively under obligation of OUGHT. That is, despite any particular person’s (or group’s or august council’s or majority’s) wishes or claims to the contrary, such obligation credibly holds to moral certainty. That is, it would be irresponsible, foolish and unwise for us to act and try to live otherwise. 5] Fifth, this cumulative framework of moral government under OUGHT is the basis for the manifest core principles of the natural moral law under which we find ourselves obligated to the right the good, the true etc. Where also, patently, we struggle to live up to what we acknowledge or imply we ought to do. 6] Sixth, this means we live in a world in which being under core, generally understood principles of natural moral law is coherent and factually adequate, thus calling for a world-understanding in which OUGHT is properly grounded at root level. (Thus worldviews that can soundly meet this test are the only truly viable ones. if a worldview does not have in it a world-root level IS that can simultaneously ground OUGHT, it fails decisively.*) 7] Seventh, in light of the above, even the weakest and most voiceless of us thus has a natural right to life, liberty, the pursuit of fulfillment of one’s sense of what s/he ought to be (“happiness”). This includes the young child, the unborn and more. (We see here the concept that rights are binding moral expectations of others to provide respect in regards to us because of our inherent status as human beings, members of the community of valuable neighbours. Where also who is my neighbour was forever answered by the parable of the Good Samaritan. Likewise, there can be no right to demand of or compel my neighbour that s/he upholds me and enables me in the wrong — including under false colour of law through lawfare. To justly claim a right, one must first be in the right.) 8] Eighth, like unto the seventh, such may only be circumscribed or limited for good cause. Such as, reciprocal obligation to cherish and not harm neighbour of equal, equally valuable nature in community and in the wider world of the common brotherhood of humanity. 9] Ninth, this is the context in which it becomes self evidently wrong, wicked and evil to kidnap, sexually torture and murder a young child or the like as concrete cases in point that show that might and/or manipulation do not make ‘right,’ ‘truth,’ ‘worth,’ ‘justice,’ ‘fairness,’ ‘law’ etc. That is, anything that expresses or implies the nihilist’s credo is morally absurd. 10] Tenth, this entails that in civil society with government, justice is a principal task of legitimate government. In short, nihilistic will to power untempered by the primacy of justice is its own refutation in any type of state. Where, justice is the due balance of rights, freedoms and responsibilities. Thus also, 11] Eleventh, that government is and ought to be subject to audit, reformation and if necessary replacement should it fail sufficiently badly and incorrigibly.
(NB: This is a requisite of accountability for justice, and the suggestion or implication of some views across time, that government can reasonably be unaccountable to the governed, is its own refutation, reflecting -- again -- nihilistic will to power; which is automatically absurd. This truth involves the issue that finite, fallible, morally struggling men acting as civil authorities in the face of changing times and situations as well as in the face of the tendency of power to corrupt, need to be open to remonstrance and reformation -- or if they become resistant to reasonable appeal, there must be effective means of replacement. Hence, the principle that the general election is an insitutionalised regular solemn assembly of the people for audit and reform or if needs be replacement of government gone bad. But this is by no means an endorsement of the notion that a manipulated mob bent on a march of folly has a right to do as it pleases.)
12] Twelfth, the attempt to deny or dismiss such a general framework of moral governance invariably lands in shipwreck of incoherence and absurdity. As, has been seen in outline. But that does not mean that the attempt is not going to be made, so there is a mutual obligation of frank and fair correction and restraint of evil. _________________ * F/N: After centuries of debates and assessment of alternatives per comparative difficulties, there is in fact just one serious candidate to be such a grounding IS: the inherently good creator God, a necessary and maximally great being worthy of ultimate loyalty and the reasonable responsible service of doing the good in accord with our manifestly evident nature. (And instantly, such generic ethical theism answers also to the accusation oh this is “religion”; that term being used as a dirty word — no, this is philosophy. If you doubt this, simply put forth a different candidate that meets the required criteria and passes the comparative difficulties test: _________ . Likewise, an inherently good, maximally great being will not be arbitrary or deceitful etc, that is why such is fully worthy of ultimate loyalty and the reasonable, responsible service of doing the good in accord with our manifestly evident nature. As a serious candidate necessary being, such would be eternal and embedded in the frame for a world to exist at all. Thus such a candidate is either impossible as a square circle is impossible due to mutual ruin of core characteristics, or else it is actual. For simple instance no world is possible without two-ness in it, a necessary basis for distinct identity inter alia.>> _________________ It is clear that there is no cogent relativist response to the objectivity or the grounding of moral governance. Indeed, it looks a lot like animosity motivates attempts to undermine what they do not like, while trying to manipulate then through lawfare to usurp the sword of justice and impose will to power. Long, grim history paid for in blood and tears serves as a warning, if we will heed it, KFkairosfocus
June 27, 2018
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BO'H: MS asked a question with a huge quantity of back-loading -- something not amenable to simplistic yes/no answers, which is what I pointed out and explained above. Frankly, I am not even confident that he has a sufficiently in-common understanding of good and evil, rationality or even reality to have a sober discussion on basis of morality, much less to go on to deal with theological matters that run beyond UD's usual remit. The breakdown, historically, came from what seems to be his side of the fence; that's why I am saying, you broke it, you fix it -- and I went so far as to give a key, plumbline, self-evident truth that allows an approach to fixing. Also, pointing to the fatal flaw in the computational substrate approach. KF PS: Local driver's licences are travel documents, used for travel. My note is, that that incident alluded to in brief is a yardstick on a very intense week just past.kairosfocus
June 27, 2018
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Bob O'H:
kf @ 78 – is that a yes or a no?
Ought it be one or the other?
MatSpirit asked a simple question, but you don’t seem willing or able to give a simple answer.
So?Mung
June 27, 2018
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ET:
You shouldn’t be able to use your driver’s license as a valid ID to board an airplane?
You need to keep up with the times.Mung
June 27, 2018
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If you are warned that the punishment for X,Y or Z is death, then it is your fault what happens to you if you commit X,Y or Z.ET
June 27, 2018
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MatSpirit:
Is killing homosexuals, brides who aren’t virgin and children who are disrespectful of their parents as bad as killing one child in every Egyptian family?
That all depends. In the case of the Egyptian children it was their own Pharaoh who called out their death sentence.ET
June 27, 2018
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Bob O'H:
FWIW, I’ve no idea about your drivers licence, but frankly my UK licence shouldn’t be a valid travel document.
Really? You shouldn't be able to use your driver's license as a valid ID to board an airplane?ET
June 27, 2018
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kf - I've no idea what you mean about my side breaking it. MatSpirit asked a simple question, but you don't seem willing or able to give a simple answer. FWIW, I've no idea about your drivers licence, but frankly my UK licence shouldn't be a valid travel document.Bob O'H
June 27, 2018
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B'OH, I have just now come back from dealing with bureaucrats etc, which underscored just how important it is to have common ground and mutuality as a context for seemingly simple answers and warrant. Your side broke it, so now your side must fix it, so we can proceed. Do you care to do so? KF PS: I just had people denying that a suitable driver's licence is a valid travel document and/or ID.kairosfocus
June 27, 2018
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kf @ 78 - is that a yes or a no?Bob O'H
June 26, 2018
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F/N: it seems the 20-minute adjustment period clock is broken and needs to be fixed. KFkairosfocus
June 26, 2018
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MS, I suggest that -- given relevant general considerations on the nature of ethics -- you need to start with fundamental issues that are prior to particular moral (or rhetorical) concerns. Specifically, with generally framed warrant for oughtness; there is no point trying to warrant oughtness within a framework that implies that might and manipulation make 'right,' 'rights,' 'truth,' 'reason,' 'warrant,' knowledge' etc, including knowledge on issues of oughtness including 'good,' 'bad' and 'worse.' Here, we start with, how is the is-ought gap bridged, given that it is central to moral government, which we cannot evade starting with duties of care to truthfulness and sound reasoning? Absent a clear resolution of such from your apparent side, there is no basis for any responsible discussion, much less one on matters of philosophical theology and linked ethics and points of concern including matters that are often raised by those more concerned to play at putting God in the dock and/or Christian-baiting than serious discussion on matters that are outside the usual remit of this blog. That, is how broken discourse now is in our civilisation, and the breaking came from your side. So, no, I will not try to build without a foundation where there is common ground for moral government in a world where we are finite, fallible, morally struggling and too often ill-willed. Your side broke it, your side now needs to fix it. Just as, your side has utterly undermined rationality and even ontology to the point that what IS, is open for debate even with mathematics. I have already put on the table a moral plumbline test, the unfortunately real-world case that it is self-evidently wrong and evil and wicked to waylay, kidnap, bind, gag, sexually assault and murder a young child on the way home from school. This case can help fix the rot, by clarifying duty and its roots. Likewise, for cause, I have little confidence in the moral judgements made in an age where many who wish to embark on topics such as you raise are implicated in enabling the ongoing worst holocaust in history, the slaughter of a million more of our living posterity in the womb at the rate of another million per WEEK; on a baseline of 800+ millions over 40+ years. For cause, I consider that the mindset behind such is debased and utterly bankrupt. So, when we are satisfied that we are on the same page, there is reason for confidence that we can have a responsible discussion; otherwise, it is a waste of effort to try to debate the difference in ontological status between God and man, the issues of nations becoming plagues on the earth when the cup of their iniquity has brimmed over, the willful hardness of heart to moral duty, the judgements of consequences of moral follly, the role of prophetic warning and of protecting wider humanity from a spreading taint, or the whys and wherefores of civil codes, much less the way our day views moral perversities and the onward willful destruction of foundational institutions such as marriage, etc. KF PS: Those who wish to discuss theological and biblical ethics issues are advised that for instance Dr William Lane Craig maintains an answering service. So do others. A read of Rom 1 - 3 may also help some.kairosfocus
June 26, 2018
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KF, Barry seems to be A.W.O.L, Perhaps you can answer the question. Is killing homosexuals, brides who aren't virgin and children who are disrespectful of their parents as bad as killing one child in every Egyptian family?MatSpirit
June 26, 2018
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Folks, see why it is so important to first see that there are abstract, necessarily existing mathematical entities and/or facts, starting with the natural numbers? That is, abstract BE-ing is a facet of reality. In some cases at least, self evident and not just necessary. This sets a context to address the logic and study of BE-ing, ontology. In this case, we then see that objective realities and responsible, reasonable warrant for acknowledging same allow us to transcend the perceptions (sometimes -- but not always, essentially arbitrary opinions) of subjects; which marks the way in which objective truth moves beyond subjectivity. Subjects may know objectively, through rational, responsible warrant. Where, of course, evolutionary materialistic objectors face the dilemma that mathematical realities are at the heart of the core sciences. Once such are acknowledged, much else melts away in the pattern of objections. In this context, oughts can be warranted as true, i.e. correctly describing duties of morally governed, responsibly rational creatures; sometimes even to self-evident certainty. Such duties are abstract and are no more reducible to arrangements of components of computational substrates than are numbers. In this context, the IS-OUGHT gap is about ultimate warrant of duty in a unified coherent world, which can only be done at world root level. The error of attempting to reduce reality to physical aspects then comes out in how even mathematics falls apart as an aspect of reasoning. For example, one mere configuration of computational components is PHYSICALLY, causally bound to another, not by the abstract ground-consequent force of logical warrant -- and that is before we touch on inductive grounding. So, yes, we traipse into truly foundational concerns here. KFkairosfocus
June 26, 2018
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Mat Spirit
You reply to a message where I explain what bad and evil are by claiming I said that “badness” doesn’t exist.
You said that bad is synonymous with pain and good is synonymous with pleasure. Thus, you reject any objective code that defines either good or bad. Pain and pleasure are subjective. That means that you don't think evil or bad exists in an absolute sense. Indeed, by your definition, it is good for God to destroy children if it gives him pleasure (which of course, it doesn't) and it is bad for them if it gives them pain. If it happens quick and they feel no pain, then it is no longer bad for them. Under that scenario, there are no acts that are unconditionally bad. The same act can be good for one person and bad for another. Thus rape is good for the rapist and bad for the person who is raped. Totally irrational.StephenB
June 23, 2018
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The mind of a fundamentalist is a wonderful thing. You reply to a message where I explain what bad and evil are by claiming I said that "badness" doesn't exist. Meanwhile, a cat seems to have Barry Arrington's tongue. Barry, we're still waiting to hear if you think killing hundreds of thousands of innocent Egyptian children is as bad as killing "homosexuals, women who aren’t virgins on their wedding night and children who disrespect their parents". I've already stated that i think it is. What do you think?MatSpirit
June 23, 2018
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Mat Spirit
Your “explanation” turns out to be a cheap debater’ s trick and a few breathtakingly inane claims with no attempt to support those claims or tie them together into some kind of argument.
If God creates something from nothing, then he owns it. God is the Creator and you are a humble creature. You are not responsible for your own existence, so any time you have on this earth is a gift that you didn't earn. It isn't yours to keep. It is God's to give or take away. If you disagree, then go ahead and provide a counter argument if you can.
So, yes, I’ve been ignoring you.
Of course. You ignore all refutations until you are shamed into responding.
I think that was a rotten thing to do, thoroughly evil, and I don’t see any extenuating circumstances.
SB: You just contradicted yourself again, even more so than with Barry. First, you say that evil doesn’t exist. Then you accuse God of evil behavior.”
No, I don’t say that, you and Barry SAY that I say that and then you both attack the words I didn’t say. Another cheap debating trick.
When you are refuted, you claim you didn't say what was attributed to you, but then you conveniently forget to cite what you DID say. The reason you do that is because when we examine the exact words you used, it becomes obvious that the accusation was right all along and you are just stalling or buying time.
Evil is deliberately or carelessly doing something that is both bad and unnecessary.
There you go again. As a materialist, you deny that anything is "bad," which is just another word for evil. So you are saying that badness doesn't exist but, nevertheless, God did something bad. Don't you even know your own philosophy? For you, the universe just is, there is no good and bad. Of course, if you want to say that evil and badness do exist, then you are saying the God exists, because good or bad, right or wrong can only exist if God exists.StephenB
June 23, 2018
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"StephenB @ 70: "Mat Spirit: You claim that God is intelligent. That means He is capable of all the above. Do you think God was good or evil when He murdered those Egyptian children? I already answered that question @58. You promptly ignored it." Msg 58 is from Barry.  You probably meant Msg 51, where you referred me to Msg 29. Msg 29 is addressed to Allen Keith, where you start by saying Allen is wrong because  the Bible doesn't use the exact phrase, "objectively good" to describe murdering homosexuals.  That's trying to win an argument with word games.    Then you say it's God's "moral privilege" to kill anybody he likes for any reason.  Perhaps you meant Satan? Your "explanation" turns out to be a cheap debater' s trick and a few breathtakingly inane claims with no attempt to support those claims or tie them together into some kind of argument. So, yes,  I've been ignoring you. StephenB: "MatSpirit: " I think that was a rotten thing to do, thoroughly evil, and I don’t see any extenuating circumstances. You just contradicted yourself again, even more so than with Barry. First, you say that evil doesn’t exist. Then you accuse God of evil behavior." No, I don't say that, you and Barry SAY that I say that and then you both attack the words I didn't say.  Another cheap debating trick. Evil is deliberately or carelessly doing something that is both bad and unnecessary. Rado: I see that I twice referred to you as "Radio".  I'm sorry, that was spell check and I was too sleepy to catch it. Marfin: Pain and anything that adversely effects the well being of a sentient creature is bad.  Pleasure and anything that increases the well being of a sentient creature is good.  That's all referenced to the creature feeling the pain or experiencing the loss of well being of course.  A rabbit being killed and eaten by a coyote is very, very bad for the rabbit, but for the coyote it means her pups will  eat tonight and that's  good for them. You won't always want to do things just because they're good.  The long term consequences may be bad such as diabetes from eating too much sugar.  Sometimes you'll do something that's bad, such as getting a painful shot, because not doing it will lead to much worse consequences such as death. It would take a small book to explore all the ramifications of this theory of good and bad and nobody on this blog would read it. As for not wanting to do something that's good for others if it causes you pain, try asking yourself, What would Jesus do? According to the Bible, He was reluctant to die on the cross.MatSpirit
June 22, 2018
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PS (#68) However, I agree with Mackie that atheistic naturalism does not provide a sufficient basis for interpersonal moral obligations which includes universal human rights. On the other hand, it’s very dangerous, as Mackie claims, to argue that we invent right or wrong. Whose standard of right or wrong? Based on what? Someone’s subjective opinion? How do we decide whose opinion is better unless we have a higher moral standard? But where does that standard come from?john_a_designer
June 22, 2018
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Mat Spirit
You claim that God is intelligent. That means He is capable of all the above. Do you think God was good or evil when He murdered those Egyptian children?
I already answered that question @58. You promptly ignored it.
I think that was a rotten thing to do, thoroughly evil, and I don’t see any extenuating circumstances.
You just contradicted yourself again, even more so than with Barry. First, you say that evil doesn't exist. Then you accuse God of evil behavior.StephenB
June 22, 2018
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In Msg 58, Barry asks, " Is your boy Dawkins correct when he says that on the materialist view, there is “no evil, no good”? " Dawkins is saying that the unthinking universe is neither good or evil.  Only an intelligent being has the mental power required to have a moral code.  At a minimum, you have to know what a moral code is, have the ability to anticipate the results of your actions and be able to compare those anticipated results to your moral code to see if your actions are moral. You claim that God is intelligent.  That means He is capable of all the above.   Do you think God was good or evil when He murdered those Egyptian children?   I think that was a rotten thing to do, thoroughly evil, and I don't see any extenuating circumstances.  So again, what's your opinion?MatSpirit
June 22, 2018
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