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The Materialist “Extraordinary Claims” Double Standard

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Materialist Carl Sagan is credited with the phrase “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.”  The dictum is known as the “Sagan Standard,” but it should be known as the “Extraordinary Claims Fallacy,” as explained very well in this article.

Materialists often use the Sagan Standard as a cudgel against theistic claims.  For example, as pointed out in the article, they may assert that people do not ordinarily rise from the dead, and therefore the claim that Jesus rose from the dead must be supported by something more than ordinary evidence; it must be supported by some vaguely defined standard of evidence they call “extraordinary evidence.”

My purpose here is not to debunk the Sagan Standard.  That has been done many times.  See the article linked above and here and here.  No, my purpose here is to note the hypocritical double standard in the way materialists employ the Sagan Standard.

Let’s take the example above.  People do not ordinarily rise from the dead.  True enough, but the claim that nonliving matter spontaneously organized itself into living matter is even more extraordinary.  There is no evidence (much less “extraordinary evidence”) to support the claim that it did.  As Franklin Harold has admitted, “There are no detailed Darwinian accounts for the evolution of any fundamental biochemical or cellular system, only a variety of wishful speculations.”

Yet every materialist believes the claim as a matter of course.

Matter does not ordinarily spontaneously organize itself into a sophisticated self-replicating code, and there is good reason to believe it is impossible to do so.

Yet every materialist believes the claim as a matter of course.

Staggeringly sophisticated systems such as the blood clotting cascade are not ordinarily assembled through the accretion of random errors.

Yet every materialist believes the claim as a matter of course.

I could go on and on, but you get the picture.  For the materialist the rule of the day is “extraordinary evidence is required for thee, but not for me.”

Update:  The wishful speculation quotation was erroneously attributed to James Shapiro.

Comments
RVB8: I suppose my language was too subtle. Surely, people don't just raise from the dead by natural means. So, just like predicting thousands of years of history or a tiny Middle Eastern nation shaping the destiny of humanity, such an event would point towards something beyond nature as we know it.LocalMinimum
April 7, 2017
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rvb8 @ 4 Let me see if I can parse what you are saying. "People never rise from the dead" = non-life cannot turn into life "OoL science is scientifically conceivable" = non-life can indeed turn into life Do you see the problem? Not yet? In the former scenario, an intelligent being is believed to turn non-life into life because he is the engineer who created chemistry, and can turn non-life into life quickly because he's acting knowledgeably and with purpose. But you don't think this explanation makes sense or squares with the evidence at hand. In the latter scenario, purely materialistic random processes are believed to turn non-life into life very slowly because they are not acting knowledgeably and with purpose. And you believe this explanation does make sense. But when we look at the evidence, can you show me why I should reach the conclusion that purely materialistic and random processes can BETTER explain why our universe has been governed from the first instant of its life by a very precise subset of mathematical and chemical parameters, AND how the highly sophisticated base-4 digital code that turns non-life into life came about in the first place (https://ds9a.nl/amazing-dna/) AND how consciousness AND intellect arose, AND why such conscious intellects, whose brains have evolved for survival and not for truth, have the epistemological basis to trust that their materialistic conclusions are true? It is not that ID is against science; on the contrary, science is at all possible ONLY BECAUSE there are constant RULES of mathematics, physics, and chemistry, the origins of which are better explained by an intelligent designer. And that is why modern science is rooted in theism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method_and_religion It is your scientific materialism that is myopic in only seeing the physical universe given to you by theism, without reaching the proper conclusion that a caused universe governed by precise laws and sporting a sophisticated digital code that assembles complex, self-healing, conscious life forms MUST necessarily require a non-rational cause. You are a Hamlet who refuses to believe in the existence of Shakespeare because you can't see him in the pages and ink of your story, believing instead that ink and paper are all that is or was or ever will be, and then doggedly looking ONLY for purely random and materialistic explanations for the origin of paper, ink, English poetry, and printing press, trusting all along that such material byproducts of the explosion of the print shop have given you an intellect whose rational insights you can trust. Myopic indeed.Macauley86
April 7, 2017
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RVB8, you are unconsciously imposing your worldview's requisites a priori, ending in w/v level grand question-begging. I suggest, again, you need to start here on to understand worldview alternatives. Our contingent world requires a necessary being root and that we are morally governed in that world requires that that NB root be also an IS capable of grounding OUGHT. There is but one serious candidate after centuries of debates, as can be seen readily by inviting a second one that does not rapidly self-destruct: __________ . The non-pareil? The inherently good Creator God of ethical theism; a necessary and maximally great being, worthy of loyalty and the reasonable, responsible service of doing the good in accord with our evident nature [i.e. I point to a discernible law of our nature]. Back to input-output analysis and the macroeconomics of capital investment tied to modern forms of Solow's growth model. KFkairosfocus
April 7, 2017
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BA, Selective Hyperskepticism, in the form of Cliffordian Evidentialism, cf here. KF PS: RVB8 above fails the test of addressing warrant of history, and is pointed here on. PPS: Simon Greenleaf, a founding father of anglophone theory of evidence, also has a bit of counsel on selective hyperskepticism vs reasonable standards of warrant (especially that involving moral evidence):
Evidence, in legal acceptation, includes all the means by which any alleged matter of fact, the truth of which is submitted to investigation, is established or disproved . . . None but mathematical truth is susceptible of that high degree of evidence, called demonstration, which excludes all possibility of error [--> Greenleaf wrote almost 100 years before Godel], and which, therefore, may reasonably be required in support of every mathematical deduction. [--> that is, his focus is on the logic of good support for in principle uncertain conclusions, i.e. in the modern sense, inductive logic and reasoning in real world, momentous contexts with potentially serious consequences.] Matters of fact are proved by moral evidence alone; by which is meant, not only that kind of evidence which is employed on subjects connected with moral conduct, but all the evidence which is not obtained either from intuition, or from demonstration. In the ordinary affairs of life, we do not require demonstrative evidence, because it is not consistent with the nature of the subject, and to insist upon it would be unreasonable and absurd. [--> the issue of warrant to moral certainty, beyond reasonable doubt; and the contrasted absurdity of selective hyperskepticism.] The most that can be affirmed of such things, is, that there is no reasonable doubt concerning them. [--> moral certainty standard, and this is for the proverbial man in the Clapham bus stop, not some clever determined advocate or skeptic motivated not to see or assent to what is warranted.] The true question, therefore, in trials of fact, is not whether it is possible that the testimony may be false, but, whether there is sufficient probability of its truth; that is, whether the facts are shown by competent and satisfactory evidence. Things established by competent and satisfactory evidence are said to be proved. [--> pistis enters; we might as well learn the underlying classical Greek word that addresses the three levers of persuasion, pathos- ethos- logos and its extension to address worldview level warranted faith-commitment and confident trust on good grounding, through the impact of the Judaeo-Christian tradition in C1 as was energised by the 500 key witnesses.] By competent evidence, is meant that which the very-nature of the thing to be proved requires, as the fit and appropriate proof in the particular case, such as the production of a writing, where its contents are the subject of inquiry. By satisfactory evidence, which is sometimes called sufficient evidence, is intended that amount of proof, which ordinarily satisfies an unprejudiced mind [--> in British usage, the man in the Clapham bus stop], beyond reasonable doubt. The circumstances which will amount to this degree of proof can never be previously defined; the only legal [--> and responsible] test of which they are susceptible, is their sufficiency to satisfy the mind and conscience of a common man; and so to convince him, that he would venture to act upon that conviction, in matters of the highest concern and importance to his own interest. [= definition of moral certainty as a balanced unprejudiced judgement beyond reasonable, responsible doubt. Obviously, i/l/o wider concerns, while scientific facts as actually observed may meet this standard, scientific explanatory frameworks such as hypotheses, models, laws and theories cannot as they are necessarily provisional and in many cases have had to be materially modified, substantially re-interpreted to the point of implied modification, or outright replaced; so a modicum of prudent caution is warranted in such contexts -- explanatory frameworks are empirically reliable so far on various tests, not utterly certain. ] [A Treatise on Evidence, Vol I, 11th edn. (Boston: Little, Brown, 1888) ch 1., sections 1 and 2. Shorter paragraphs added. (NB: Greenleaf was a founder of the modern Harvard Law School and is regarded as a founding father of the modern Anglophone school of thought on evidence, in large part on the strength of this classic work.)]
kairosfocus
April 7, 2017
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RVB: ‘Project Steve’, as of late Dec 2016 1,400 scientists, only Biologists or related fields, only Steve, or female and foreign derivatives. Imagine if they allowed all scientists from every field, with any name? Yes the dissent from Darwinism contained the joining of over a thousand PhD's from all sciences including mathematicians and engineers - which is germane because those NOT in the life sciences are less likely to lose their jobs for signing it. Guess what - I'm going to say it again for the young ones reading - the dissent from Darwinism project was terminated because a number of researchers in the life sciences were themselves terminated for signing it. TERMINATED by radical true believers with the same religion as yourself. One of those terminated was Doug Axe after publishing calculations of the truly astronomical odds against just a single protein arising by chance that folds into a correct shape for utilization and "selective advantage". TERMINATED he was, as in shown the door, in the UK where the 19th century cult hero has garnered especially high status. You should read Dr. Axe's book and get that story for yourself.groovamos
April 6, 2017
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groovamos, 'Funny how many Phd scientists study the ID literature..' 'Project Steve', as of late Dec 2016 1,400 scientists, only Biologists or related fields, only Steve, or female and foreign derivatives. Imagine if they allowed all scientists from every field, with any name? Dembski's, and the DI's, 'A Scientific Dissent from Darwinism', languishes. Actually don't read the Wiki section on those scientists that were mislead by the DI statement, and have since recanted, it would be depressing. Also, ID literature? You mean books usually stocked in the religious or cultural studies sections of libraries and book stores? LocalM, in answer to your first question. Nothing I suppose, as long as our nano-engineering tech were sufficiently advanced. We would have to break down the organic chemicals to their constituent elements and then reassemble them minus the naturally occuring aging errors. Why bother? Nature has done it already, we are the product. Local; 'rising from the dead....just because...'? Your explanation, 'just because', is even more absurd than, the dead, 'do not ordinarily', rise from the dead. Actually 'just because', is the explanation my 4 year old niece gives, for absolutely everything she can't explain.rvb8
April 6, 2017
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Actually Sagan and others got the saying from one of the co-founders of CSICOP, Marcello Truzzi-- who was later shown the door for believing that naturalism was itself an extraordinary/grand claim, and also for pointing out that they were inconsistent with their standards of evidence. Truzzi wrote an amazing review of Michael Shermer's Why People Believe Weird Things that I think should be required reading for philosophy of science. Truzzi was largely agnostic about all extraordinary claims but believed they should be given a fair hearing. His former colleague and debunker-at-large Paul Kurtz later referred to him as "the skeptic's skeptic" and this was true in more ways than one.tertiumquid
April 6, 2017
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Sagan was a strong supporter of SETI and in the 1980’s during and after his Cosmos series was actively campaigning for U.S. taxpayer funding of SETI research to the tune of millions, if not over time, billions of dollars. But what scientific evidence do we have that extraterrestrial intelligent beings (ETI’s) exist anywhere in the universe? Sure it possible that ETI’s exist but it is also possible that Bigfoot exists. At least with Bigfoot we have some evidence that such a cryptozoological species exists: big footprints, hundreds of eyewitness sightings even some movie footage. I remain skeptical but still isn’t some evidence better than absolutely no evidence as we have for ETI’s? (Unless you want to consider the Roswell, Area 51 alien abduction stuff etc. Sagan of course was highly skeptical of such claims, as am I.) My point is that Sagan was more than willing to drop the so-called “Sagan Standard” when it came to his own pet projects. If he didn’t take it that seriously, why should we?john_a_designer
April 6, 2017
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RVB8: 1) The immediate dead are at least as close to a living configuration as any of your choice of bags of chemicals, is really the point. To say their state has a different direction of evolution than your most favored bag of chemicals is to appeal to a nature you can only postulate. 3) I would ask you define "scientifically conceivable". I would assume you mean it can be achieved by naturalistic mechanisms. If we assume there is nothing supernatural about life (your view, correct?), what is to prevent us from raising the dead once we have sufficient bio-scanning and editing technology? Does it "go against nature" because we never observe it happening? We have yet to observe any sort of OOL event. Does it go against nature simply because we don't understand how it could happen? Likewise for OOL events. Meanwhile, what reason do we have to believe that chemicals will evolve to ever higher peaks of non-equilibrium on their own? Even a toy like Conway's Game of Life suggests that complex states evolve into simpler ones; at best you can establish a perpetually self-preserving oscillation (which makes it more favorable than chemistry in a small way, at least, as entropy is not practically guaranteed). I do not understand your issue with the use of the phrase “do not ORDINARILY rise from the dead.” I would assume the statement is not in any way logically contrary to your expectations? Furthermore, if rising from the dead were a thing one could expect to happen every now and then, just because...then how could we know that Jesus' resurrection was divine? Clearly, there is no conflict in expectation here?LocalMinimum
April 6, 2017
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RVB: Materialists do not, ‘believe’ OOL as a matter of course. Belief and faith are your spheres. Of course you do because no scientific school of thought I know "believes" life always existed. I postulate that you "believe" as all materialist do, that the first life form spontaneously poofed itself into existence with a fully and perfectly functioning replication apparatus at the ready, just like you think nature poofed itself into existence. Because you know what is allowed in nature and what is not allowed, you tell yourself and everybody. So therefore you do "believe" in a kind of magic, because magic goes 'poof' just like you like it. OOL science is scientifically conceivable, the dead rising is not, that goes against nature. Oh you an expert in "scientifically conceivable" whatever the hell the phrase means if anything. Oh and BTW there are plenty of reports of people reviving from the dead, in coffins and in morgues. ID is not considered in any way, ‘science’ That's really funny. Somehow what is 'science' is a story a 19th century non-scientist came up with in order to justify his philosophical materialism, securing his place as a cult figurehead for materialists. And the story? Atoms have a built-in drive to arrange themselves into life, intelligence, artworks, music, buildings, cities, and other achievements including the words to describe them. Oh and while we're at it, the story is unfalsifiable, a big problem for calling it 'science'. No true believer such as yourself will admit to a conceivable falsification scenario for the Darwinist faith. This is the definition of faith. They do however, ‘accept’ the evidence; which is only growing by the way. Funny how many PhD scientists study the ID literature and are converting away from the 19th century religion. Seems there must be some evidence in there somewhere. Here is the latest, read about the latest blow for your religion: https://www.evolutionnews.org/2017/02/german_paleonto_1/groovamos
April 6, 2017
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rvb8, wake up to yourself, for crying out loud. How do you explain, how can you BEGIN to explain how, with the slogan : 'Take up your cross and follow me', a bunch of largely slaves and poor folk developed a religion that created a culture which eventually propelled European countries to the forefront (by a distance) of scientific, technological and social progress ? Europe, the non-pareil hegemon of the continents.Axel
April 6, 2017
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But we all know, though, don't we, that 'the rule of the day' for the materialists, is that for them, there are no rules. 'Well, whoda thunk ? Isn't evolution full of surprises... ?!?! I guess that gives us another insight into it's marvels. Evolution must be that 'beauty, ever ancient, ever new', Augustine of Hippo talked about.....'Axel
April 6, 2017
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Barry, "People do not ordinarily rise from the dead." (?) 'Ordinarily'? I disagree. Now if you say 'never', then you are approaching the real round number of times this 'beyond ordinary, or extraordinary, or beyond natural, or supernatural event has occured, (Biblical evidence not withstanding);'0'! Kairos will now arrive with a slew of unsupportable, 'eyewitness' testimony. As if police ever trust those witnessess without the corroboration of the physical evidence. Then you say; "True enough, but the claim that non-living matter spontaineously organized itself into living matter is even more extraordinar." Huh? 1.) Time moves forward not backward, for the dead to rise a former state of existance must be achieved, i.e. travelling backward in time. In organic chemistry no former state is required, it does not outrage the movement of time. 2.) Organic molecules do form with only naturally occuring elements, and naturally occuring forces. The dead rising has never occered naturally, (unless on HBO.) 3.) OOL science is scientifically conceivable, the dead rising is not, that goes against nature. 4.) Materialists do not, 'believe' OOL as a matter of course. Belief and faith are your spheres. They do however, 'accept' the evidence; which is only growing by the way. I'm sorry, I can not get over the way phrases such as, "do not ORDINARILY rise from the dead." are tossed adout at this site. You must understand how completely at cross purposes with science such a statement is? And if not, then you must concede why ID is not considered in any way, 'science'. I am no 'shill' for TSZ. I merely point out that opponents of evolution there are not only given unmolested access, they also have 'posting' rights. (I'm not requesting posting rights BTW, your own efforts are sufficient.)rvb8
April 6, 2017
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From a History point of view, a challenge to the orthodox explanation of what happened and why it happened generally requires a big gob of new data, typically followed by a bar fight that lasts for a generation or so. In 1999, Robert Stinnet released the book "Day of Deceit" in which he provided new evidence, found in the US National Archives and untouched for more than 50 years, that Franklin Roosevelt not only knew that the Japanese Navy had left Japan and was headed to Pearl Harbor, but that Roosevelt and his fellow conspirators (apparently including CNO Admiral King and Army Chief of Staff Marshall) had spent an entire year (November 1940 through November 1941) intentionally provoking such a Japanese attack. Stinnet's research was of course condemned because it COULDN'T be true. For if it were true, than Roosevelt and King and Marshall and their associates were guilty of a Treason so foul as to make Benedict Arnold a mere school boy. The evidence includes copies of messages (telegrams) from Naval Intelligence with distribution to the White House. No counter evidence has been provided over the intervening 20 years. What we have instead are blanket denials that any of the messages could possibly mean what they clearly say. So, Historians will have to wait for at least 1 more generation of Mainstream Historians to DIE before the Evidence for the Extraordinary Claims can even be discussed, very much like Evolution.mahuna
April 6, 2017
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Nuh... It all depends on who is in power or who is running the show in the so-called science business currently controlled by the bullies from the materialists faith... Though to be fair, when the science was run by the religious first, it was pretty much the same thing... though no objector the the materialists' faith in burned alive or subjected to torture... I often wonder what I would do to the people who object, deny and plainly refuse simple, and obvious truths about the design... I have many, many friends who do that... I wouldn't hurt them to make them see the truth... What would the Designer of the Universe do? If I had done what I know about what He did, I would most likely be overwhelmed with calm confidence... If anyone of you play individual sport like tennis or rocket-ball, you may know what I'm talking about... I hope you missed me...J-Mac
April 6, 2017
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'Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence' is an extraordinary claim for which extraordinary evidence has not been provided. It is self-contradictory and therefore false. Claims require evidence that they are true on the balance of probabilities. That is all.Aeneas Pietas
April 6, 2017
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