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The Naturalists’ Conundrum

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Kantian Naturalist writes that almost all naturalists (including, presumably, himself) believe selection tends to favor true beliefs.

I don’t know why he would say this, because Neo-Darwinian Evolution (“NDE”) posits that selection favors characters that increase fitness as measured by relative reproductive fecundity. Per NDE, selection is indifferent the truth. It will select for a false belief if, for whatever reason, that belief increases fitness.

Now the naturalist might say that it is obvious that true belief must increase fitness more than false belief. Is it obvious? Consider the conundrum of religious belief from an NDE perspective:

1. By definition the naturalist believes religious belief is false.

2. The overwhelming majority of people throughout history have held religious belief.

3. Therefore, the naturalist must believe that the overwhelming majority of humans throughout history have held a false belief.

4. It follows that natural selection selected for a belief that the naturalist is convinced is false.

We can set to one side the question of whether a particular religious belief is actually false. The naturalist, by definition, believes they all are, and therefore he must believe that natural selection selected for a belief he thinks is false.

What is the naturalist to do? Indeed, if the naturalist concedes that natural selection at least sometimes selects for false beliefs, how can he have any confidence in his own conviction that naturalism itself is true?

Appeals to “the evidence” won’t save the naturalist here. Both sides of the religion issue appeal to evidence.

Comments
CentralScrutinizer:
I’m not a believer in the New Testament, so I have no reason to defend such a proposition.
I figured you for a Christian from your questions. Apologies. In any case, my answer is basically still the same. When one accepts a particular work as genuine revelation, which I do in the case of Conversations with God, then there will likely be a least a few statements that one does not fully understand. How God knew His magnificence without having experienced it is one of those for me, although we are talking about God here, who among other things is omniscient, so it isn't so far fetched that such could be the case.Bruce David
December 26, 2012
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"He disagrees with you." and apparently also with you: “Let me go on record by stating that I am not a Preterist.” (In section titled: THE FALL OF JERUSALEM) http://www.angelfire.com/nt/theology/lk21.html In fact he is pretty straight forward, in the page I listed, to say that he considers straight up preterism 'gangrene'.,,, I'm pretty sure that is not a term of endearment! :)bornagain77
December 26, 2012
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BA77, this author writes essentially the same thing I did about the parable of the fig tree. He disagrees with you.
It is often held that the fig tree is a symbol for Israel. From this it is often maintained that the parable of the fig tree is pointing to a future regathering of Israel. The problem with such a view is that, while such a symbol could have been used in ancient times, the Scriptures are notably lacking in making such a connection. Furthermore, Jesus does not limit Himself to the fig tree in this parable. He points to the fig tree and ALL the trees. The point is not to necessarily single out the fig tree or one particular sign. It is all the signs that are in view. Here is the principle. When you see the signs, you know that the fulfillment is close by.
He then goes on to write:
The words of Jesus in verse 32 have been the subject of some controversy: This generation will not pass away until all things take place. Of what is this speaking? Several interpretations have been suggested. 1.) This is pointing to the fulfillments that would take place within the next 40 years and which would culminate in the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. The problem is that it is difficult to reconcile all things of verse 32 with the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory in verse 27.
And then:
Which of these is the correct view? I do not know. They each have strengths and weaknesses. I am personally inclined to hold to the first view with the understanding that the A.D. 70 event was merely an initial fulfillment of the prophecy which would be ultimately concluded in a future day.
Mung
December 26, 2012
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There is no contradiction. How come instead of hearing "cool hand luke' I'm hearing Clinton saying 'depends on what your definition of is is'?bornagain77
December 26, 2012
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Bruce David:
Jesus made two prophesies, one concerning the destruction of the temple and one regarding the second coming. The former was fulfilled and the latter was not. You concentrate on the former and ignore the latter.
It was a single prophecy, not two prophecies. And many Christian, both now and historically, have denied that they are two distinct events. His "coming in the clouds" was a coming in judgment, the language fully in keeping with that used by the Old Testament prophets, and was fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem. So no, I am not cherry-piking. I support the unity of the entire passage. It is you who have decided some verses from the same passage are fulfilled and some are not. You are the one cherry-picking.Mung
December 26, 2012
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Bruce David @ 398:
Me: …you just take this dude’s word for it. No explanation necessary. Okie dokie. Thanks for the reply. You: Isn’t that the nature of any revelation. Do you have an explanation of how Jesus walked on water or raised the dead or fed the multitudes with a loaf of bread? Don’t you just take your own preferred source of revelation’s word for it?
I'm not a believer in the New Testament, so I have no reason to defend such a proposition.
I think you may be operating under a double standard here.
Why?CentralScrutinizer
December 26, 2012
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BA:
So basically, you are saying that when you are caught in a direct contradiction of statements you just have imagine your way out of it because logic will not help??? Thanks for clearing that up!
There is no contradiction. It appears to be one to you because you hear a different meaning for the phrase "One with God" than what I intend. I have done my best to convey my meaning, but the attempt obviously has not been successful. We'll just have to leave it that "What we have here is a failure to communicate," in Cool Hand Luke's famous phraseology.Bruce David
December 26, 2012
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"Let me go on record by stating that I am not a Preterist." (In section titled: THE FALL OF JERUSALEM) http://www.angelfire.com/nt/theology/lk21.htmlbornagain77
December 26, 2012
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BD you stated: “Adam is still the created and God the creator, so Adam’s—and our—existence is dependent on God. Thus Adam and we are not God’s equal even though He made us in His image and likeness. I believe that each of us is a part of Him, created with God-like powers, wisdom, knowledge, and love, but I am also fully aware that I owe these and indeed my very existence to Him. I know that I am utterly dependent upon Him. I would never claim to be His equal, even to myself.” OK, yet earlier you stated: “Your outrage is based on the notion of separation—that there is God, and there are humans, separate beings from Him. However, it is a central tenet of CWG that we are One.” To which I asked: So which is it? To which you replied: Both. “One with God” does not mean “equal to God”. It is a way of saying that our consciousness is an individuation of His consciousness, that we participate in His essence, that each of us is a part of Him, that the One looking through our eyes is Him. There is no way to get this with your left brain. You have to “grock” it. So basically, you are saying that when you are caught in a direct contradiction of statements you just have imagine your way out of it because logic will not help??? Thanks for clearing that up!bornagain77
December 26, 2012
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Mung you state that "That’s (Partial Preterism) the stated view of the author of that web page" I don't know what he is. I know that he describes what Partial Preterism is on that page but he never says that he personally holds that position,,, What he does do on that page is to dismantle preterism which is exactly the opposite of what you said he did: "That’s my point. You directed people to a preterist site for them to learn why preterism is wrong, lol. oops!" ,,,So mung you don't admit you were wrong when I pointed it out to you, then say that he is a partial preterist on the page which he doesn't (he merely describes it on that page) and you find all this productive how?,, other than annoying me?bornagain77
December 26, 2012
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Mung:
What part of Jerusalem will be surrounded by armies and the temple will be destroyed do you think did not come to pass? Or do you just cherry-pick parts of the passage?
Excuse me...I do believe it is you who are cherry picking. Jesus made two prophesies, one concerning the destruction of the temple and one regarding the second coming. The former was fulfilled and the latter was not. You concentrate on the former and ignore the latter. Sounds like cherry picking to me.Bruce David
December 26, 2012
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Rationalization? Really? Let's see Jesus said that the second temple would be destroyed,,, Matthew 24:2 "Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down." and, in congruence with multiple scriptures in the Old testament, that the diaspora would happen,,,
Luke 21:24 … “They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled on by Gentiles (non-Jews) until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled”
And Israel is indeed back in the hands of the Jews, fulfilling prophecy to the exact year(s) (both 1948 and 1967),,, Restoration Of Israel and Jerusalem In Prophecy (Doing The Math) – Chuck Missler – video http://www.metacafe.com/w/8598581 thus signifying that 'the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled',, Moreover the fig tree is referred to as representing Israel in Old Testament prophecy, and Jesus clearly said (when taken in context to the entire passage) that the generation which saw 'the fig tree budding' would be the generation that would not pass away until all things be fulfilled,,, and yet you hold that all this is 'rationalization' and distortion??? A normal person, when faced with such a stunning tract record of successfully fulfilled prophecy (especially the in-gathering of Israel), would have instead asked 'how long is a generation in the Bible' instead of doubling down on a losing hand as you have done!,,, But for those (normal people) who may be interested, the second half of this following video (around the 15 minute mark after the commercial) addresses the question of just how long a generation is in the Bible: Fall Feasts and the Budding of the Fig Tree with Doug Hamp – video https://vimeo.com/50687234bornagain77
December 26, 2012
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Bruce David:
To me it really requires very little in the way of interpretation. Jesus clearly stated what would happen and when. It didn’t happen when he said it would, and it hasn’t happened yet, 2000 years later.
But even given your admitted ignorance when it comes to interpreting scripture, you don't have any problem making this claim. Hilarious. What part of Jerusalem will be surrounded by armies and the temple will be destroyed do you think did not come to pass? Or do you just cherry-pick parts of the passage? BA77, here it is again for you:
Partial Preterism maintains a future return of Christ, but views His “coming in the clouds” as described in Matthew 24:29-31 as having been fulfilled in A.D. 70 with the fall of Jerusalem.
That's the stated view of the author of that web page, and it's directly contradictory to your own stance. Jesus already returned "in the clouds."Mung
December 26, 2012
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So what you are really saying is that the context in which the passage in question was spoken means absolutely nothing to you if it compromises your preferred belief. Thanks for clearing that up.
No, I am saying I don't buy your rationalization in which you distort the obvious meaning of his words in order to avoid what you don't want to face---that his prophesy failed to materialize.Bruce David
December 26, 2012
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So what you are really saying is that the context in which the passage in question was spoken means absolutely nothing to you if it compromises your preferred belief. Thanks for clearing that up.bornagain77
December 26, 2012
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BA:
Now BD that is just simply completely unfair for you to hold that the prophecy would “mean something else entirely” when it was clearly shown to you that you had incorrectly interpreted the scripture in the first place when the entire context is taken into account.
You may believe it was "clearly shown". I do not. To me it really requires very little in the way of interpretation. Jesus clearly stated what would happen and when. It didn't happen when he said it would, and it hasn't happened yet, 2000 years later.Bruce David
December 26, 2012
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as to: "when in order to view a prophesy as fulfilled it is necessary to “interpret” what Jesus actually stated would occur to mean something else entirely." Now BD that is just simply completely unfair for you to hold that the prophecy would "mean something else entirely" when it was clearly shown to you that you had incorrectly interpreted the scripture in the first place when the entire context is taken into account.bornagain77
December 26, 2012
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As to this particular: "Do you have an explanation of how Jesus walked on water,," Actually I found this tidbit which, though it may not explain exactly "how", but it none-the-less intriguing for the clue it gives:: The (1 in 10^120) finely tuned expansion of the universe is talked about here: Fine Tuning Of Dark Energy and Mass of the Universe - Hugh Ross - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4007682 Here are the verses in the Bible, which were written over 2000 years before the discovery of the finely tuned expansion of the universe by 'Dark Energy', that speak of God 'Stretching out the Heavens'; Job 9:8; Isaiah 40:22; Isaiah 40:24; Isaiah 48:13; Zechariah 12:1; Psalm 104:2; Isaiah 42:5; Isaiah 45:12; Isaiah 51:13; Jeremiah 51:15; Jeremiah 10:12. The following verse is one of my favorites out of the group of verses: Job 9:8 He alone stretches out the heavens and treads on the waves of the sea. semi-related note as to structure of reality: I find it extremely interesting, and strange, that quantum mechanics tells us that instantaneous quantum wave collapse to its 'uncertain' 3-D state is centered on each individual observer in the universe, whereas, 4-D space-time cosmology (General Relativity) tells us each 3-D point in the universe is central to the expansion of the universe. These findings of modern science are pretty much exactly what we would expect to see if this universe were indeed created, and sustained, from a higher dimension by a omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal Being who knows everything that is happening everywhere in the universe at the same time. These findings certainly seem to go to the very heart of the age old question asked of many parents by their children, “How can God hear everybody’s prayers at the same time?”,,, i.e. Why should the expansion of the universe, or the quantum wave collapse of the entire universe, even care that you or I, or anyone else, should exist? Only Theism offers a rational explanation as to why you or I, or anyone else, should have such undeserved significance in such a vast universe: Psalm 33:13-15 The LORD looks from heaven; He sees all the sons of men. From the place of His dwelling He looks on all the inhabitants of the earth; He fashions their hearts individually; He considers all their works. The following site is very interesting; The Scale of The Universe - Part 2 - interactive graph (recently updated in 2012 with cool features) http://htwins.net/scale2/scale2.swf?bordercolor=white The preceding interactive graph points out that the smallest scale visible to the human eye (as well as a human egg) is at 10^-4 meters, which 'just so happens' to be directly in the exponential center of all possible sizes of our physical reality (not just ‘nearly’ in the exponential center!). i.e. 10^-4 is, exponentially, right in the middle of 10^-35 meters, which is the smallest possible unit of length, which is Planck length, and 10^27 meters, which is the largest possible unit of 'observable' length since space-time was created in the Big Bang, which is the diameter of the universe. This is very interesting for, as far as I can tell, the limits to human vision (as well as the size of the human egg) could have, theoretically, been at very different positions than directly in the exponential middle;bornagain77
December 26, 2012
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CentralScrutinizer:
…you just take this dude’s word for it. No explanation necessary. Okie dokie. Thanks for the reply.
Isn't that the nature of any revelation. Do you have an explanation of how Jesus walked on water or raised the dead or fed the multitudes with a loaf of bread? Don't you just take your own preferred source of revelation's word for it? I think you may be operating under a double standard here.Bruce David
December 26, 2012
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Mung:
Is wooden literalism your preferred method for interpreting scripture? Let me suggest that you do a study of biblical imagery and types:
I am not a Christian. I have very little interest in interpreting scripture; that's your bailiwick. But don't expect me to accept the Bible as true revelation based on fulfilled prophesy when in order to view a prophesy as fulfilled it is necessary to "interpret" what Jesus actually stated would occur to mean something else entirely.Bruce David
December 26, 2012
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Bruce David,
Conceptual knowledge and experiential knowledge are not the same.
Obviously. However, what I actually asked you is how "God" has this theoretical knowledge of his "magnificence" without an "experiential" knowledge of it. All you can say is...
really, the answer is simply that I take His word for it, as revealed in Conversations with God, Book I.
...you just take this dude's word for it. No explanation necessary. Okie dokie. Thanks for the reply.CentralScrutinizer
December 26, 2012
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Mung you state: "You directed people to a preterist site for them to learn why preterism is wrong, lol." Excuse me??? Here is the site: WHY I AM NOT A PRETERIST Excerpt: the teaching of Preterism comes uncomfortably close to the spiritual gangrene that is described by Paul in 2 Timothy 2:18 when he speaks of those who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and thus they upset the faith of some,, http://www.angelfire.com/nt/theology/preterist.html If you really think that site is teaching preterism, there is not much I can do save to shake my head in disbelief that you would say as such.bornagain77
December 26, 2012
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BD, big NO! Once again, when the ENTIRE context, and timing (when and where), in which He spoke the parable to the disciples is looked at then the meaning becomes clear that he was referring to the future generation who saw the 'budding of the fig tree' after Jerusalem's (and Israel's) soon coming destruction. Your taking the scripture out of context is clearly biased and unfair. Indeed, there are many other verses in the Bible that would make no sense whatsoever unless this is exactly what he meant. For instance there are many verses in the old testament such as the following,,
Ezekiel 36:24 (Ezekiel; 590 B.C.) "For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land." Leviticus 26:33 “And you, I will scatter among the nations, at the point of My drawn sword, leaving your country desolate and your cities in ruins”. Deuteronomy 28:64 (“And G-d shall scatter you among all the peoples from one end of the earth to the other…”), the prophesy continues—“Among those nations you shall find no repose, not a foot of ground to stand upon, for there the L-rd will give you an anguished heart and wasted eyes and a dismayed spirit.” (Deuteronomy 28:65).
Yet, the Jews had never been scattered among the nations previous to the second destruction of Jerusalem. Sure they had been taken captive by the Babylonians, and such as that, but never were they literally dispersed (diaspora) among all the nations. Moreover, Jesus himself said that the Jews would be dispersed throughout the world until 'the times of the gentiles (non-Jews) were fulfilled',,
Luke 21:24 ... “They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled on by Gentiles (non-Jews) until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled"
That verse (and passage) simply would make no sense whatsoever under your (mis)interpretation of the scripture! Moreover, besides the obvious fact that the Bible as a whole makes no sense without a diaspora of the Jewish people, it is literally a miracle that the Jews would remain together as a ethnic people though they were scattered throughout the world for as long as they were. Mark Twain (a skeptic with no axe to grind) marveled at this:
“The Egyptian, Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away. The Greek and Roman followed, made a vast noise and they are gone. Other peoples have sprung up, and held their torch high for a time, but it burned out and they sit in twilight now or have vanished. The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert and aggressive mind. All things are mortal, but the Jew. All other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality?” http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/7-wonders-of-jewish-history/
Here is a short video that looks at the wonder of the survival of the Jewish people:
The Miracle of the Restoration of the Nation of Israel - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydwxy9yqhzM
music:
Christy Nockels - Waiting Here For You http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3OEGnH5x8g
bornagain77
December 26, 2012
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All the prophecies concerning the arrival of the Redeemer and early Jewish history have been fulfilled, but many prophecies about future events are in the process of being fulfilled. They are not unrelated. The Book of Revelation, for example, is framed from a big picture perspective. In it, John describes future events from three perspectives [a] the immediate struggle between Jews and the Roman Empire, [b] the perennial struggle that the people of God must continually undergo at the expense of the world, and [c] the last apocalyptic struggle where total victory is achieved, after which there will be no more battles. The broad message is that evil will always persecute good, but good will eventually win the day. In Mark, Matthew, and other places, Jesus often takes this same big-picture perspective when he responds to his disciples’ short sighted or multiple questions. Specifically, he often says something like, “If you think that was something, just wait until….’ [“Yes, I am performing miracles, but you will do even greater things in my name”] [Yes, I knew (supernaturally) that Philip was under the fig tree, but you will see greater thing that that”] That is what is happening in Mark 13: 24-30 where one of the disciples makes an observation (it is not a question), [“If you think that the fall of faithless Jerusalem is going to something, just wait until the final fall of faithless mankind.] It’s not just about [a] the immediate future nor is it just about [c] the end times. Point [a] has been fulfilled; point [c] is in the process of being fulfilled.StephenB
December 26, 2012
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BA77:
Mung, when the full context of the parable is laid out, the meaning is clear that he was speaking of the generation who saw the ‘budding of the fig tree’ would be the generation who would not pass til all things are fulfilled.
It's a parable. It's a parable relative to the things he had just told his disciples. And so the "budding" would be seen by them, the same way the signs would be seen by them, and the same way all those things, which includes the destruction of Jerusalem, would take place within their lifetime. Which it did. The prophecy is fulfilled. BA77:
Mung I don’t know what you are thinking my views are for I am not a partial preterist as far as I know.
That's my point. You directed people to a preterist site for them to learn why preterism is wrong, lol. oops! BA77:
Sir Isaac Newton...
So? He also believed in the early date for the Apocalypse of John, which you no doubt disagree with. Bruce David:
Oh really, Where is your evidence that “the sun [was] darkened, and the moon [did] not give its light...
Is wooden literalism your preferred method for interpreting scripture? Let me suggest that you do a study of biblical imagery and types: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0830814515 http://www.scribd.com/doc/21739030/Dictionary-of-Biblical-ImageryMung
December 26, 2012
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BA re 380: This is just a long version of what you said in 367. It is equally unconvincing. It turns on your statement, "An event will be signaled as imminent by the budding of the fig tree (v. 32-33)" In Jesus' own words, that event is simply the arrival of summer. It is a metaphor, nothing more. Your interpretation requires that the words mean something that isn't in the text, and to me it is an obvious attempt to save the Bible from a charge that is clearly true: Jesus is recorded as having made a failed prophesy. Re 382:
So which is it?
Both. "One with God" does not mean "equal to God". It is a way of saying that our consciousness is an individuation of His consciousness, that we participate in His essence, that each of us is a part of Him, that the One looking through our eyes is Him. There is no way to get this with your left brain. You have to "grock" it.Bruce David
December 26, 2012
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Mung:
The correct answer is that those things did come to pass within that generation. Jesus was not a false prophet. The thing he said would come tp pass did come to pass, as and when he said they would. So now what is your argument?
Oh really, Where is your evidence that "the sun [was] darkened, and the moon [did] not give its light, 25 and the stars [fell] from heaven, and the powers in the heavens [were] shaken. 26 And then they [saw] the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then he [sent] out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven"?Bruce David
December 26, 2012
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Sir Isaac Newton, who is considered one of the greatest, if not the greatest, scientist who has ever lived, was a avid student of Bible prophecy, and held that Israel would return to their homeland centuries before it was remotely feasible for them to do so:: Israeli library uploads (Sir Isaac) Newton's theological texts - February 15, 2012 Excerpt: He's considered to be one of the greatest scientists of all time.,, However, the curator of Israel's national library's humanities collection said Newton was also a devout Christian who dealt far more in theology than he did in physics,, "He (Sir Isaac Newton) took a great interest in the Jews, and we found no negative expressions toward Jews in his writing," said Levy-Rubin. "He (years before it was remotely feasible) said the Jews would ultimately return to their land." http://www.physorg.com/news/2012-02-israeli-library-uploads-newton-theological.html Sir Isaac Newton's Prediction For The Return Of Christ (A.D. 2060) - Sid Roth video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041154bornagain77
December 26, 2012
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Mung I don't know what you are thinking my views are for I am not a partial preterist as far as I know.bornagain77
December 26, 2012
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Mung, when the full context of the parable is laid out, the meaning is clear that he was speaking of the generation who saw the 'budding of the fig tree' would be the generation who would not pass til all things are fulfilled. Indeed, The situation in, and around, Israel is just as it was prophesied to be before the quote unquote final battle.bornagain77
December 26, 2012
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