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The origin of abiotic species: Seven epic fails

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A team of researchers led by Professor Sijbren Otto of the University of Groningen, in the Netherlands, has announced that it has observed not only self-replication, but also mutants and even new “species,” in a bunch of molecules in the lab. Does this research show how life might have arisen spontaneously, or is it nothing more than a case of intelligent design by clever chemists?

In today’s post, I’m going to argue that the claims made by Professor Otto and his team are flawed, on no less than seven counts. But before I examine their press release and their paper in Nature Chemistry, I’d like to discuss a Science LinX video that was posted on Youtube last year (March 17, 2015), titled, “Chemical evolution: creating life?”, which explains the work being carried out Otto and his group:

The text of the video reads as follows (note: all bold emphases shown in this post are mine – VJT):

This is Sijbren Otto, a chemistry researcher from Groningen. A while ago, he and his research group discovered molecules that can reproduce. Start out with a handful, and after a while, you’ve got twice as many. A bit later, there are four times as many, and so on. There are even different kinds of reproducing molecules that compete for building blocks. “That looks exactly like animals competing for food,” Otto thought. Now, he wants to trick molecules into real evolution – you know, the Charles Darwin kind of evolution that all living organisms have been going through for some four billion years. Who knows? His research might one day result in some kind of chemical life form.

It all started with a pot of pretty simple molecules able to couple on two sides. Also, they have a little tail that exactly fits the tail of the other molecules. The idea was that this would help create some structure. And so it did. The molecules hook up and form rings, counting six, seven or eight molecules each. And as the tails fit onto each other, so do the rings. A six-ring fits a six-ring, a seven-ring fits a seven-ring, and so on. Stacks of rings become towers. Towers become long threads. If you stir the pot, the threads will break apart. But each piece will start to grow again – from both ends. Soon, Otto’s pots were teeming with small threads of molecules.

However, in real evolution, species also change when they reproduce every once in a while. A mutation causes a child to be slightly different from its parents. So, Otto’s students started working with several different tails that might sometimes not fit together so well. When the molecules stack, mistakes happen. These errors may cause the thread to grow faster, or to stop growing, or to grow into complicated shapes, or to do something else yet. In fact, Otto doesn’t know, because this is what his students are finding out now. In any case, Otto’s pots are brewing. The question is: when can it be considered life? Otto thinks there is a gray area between “really alive” and “really dead.” But when it waves at us and says, “Hello,” you can be pretty sure it’s alive.

The latest press release: “The origin of abiotic species”

On January 4, 2016, a press release titled, The origins of abiotic species, was put out by the University of Groningen. The key part reads as follows:

Otto has been working on chemical evolution for several years now. ‘It started with a chance discovery’, he explains. ‘We found some small peptides that could arrange themselves into rings, which could then form stacks.’ Once a stack began to form, it would continue to grow and would then multiply by breaking into two smaller stacks. These would both grow and break again, and so on. The stacks also stimulated the formation of the rings from which they are composed. The stacks and rings are called ‘replicators‘, as they are able to make copies of themselves.

Jan Sadownik, a postdoc in the Otto group, discovered that if you offer the replicators two different types (A and B) of building blocks (‘food’) they will make copies of themselves. He observed the emergence of a set of replicator mutants that specialized in food A, but also incorporated some B. The rings mainly comprised the A building blocks, with just a few B’s.

Some days later Sadownik saw a second set of mutants emerge that specialized in food B, but also tolerated some A. This second set proved to be a descendant of the first set, which meant there was an ancestral relationship between the sets. This is very similar to how new species form from existing ones during biological evolution, except that this process of species formation does not involve full-fledged biological organisms, but occurs instead at the molecular level.

Molecular speciation

Looking at the molecular ‘speciation’ process in more detail allowed the researchers to identify specific mutants within the first set of replicators that were responsible for the generation of the second set. They had therefore established the mechanism by which replicator ‘species’ form with unprecedented molecular-level detail….

This shows how new ‘species’ can emerge through chemical evolution. Otto explains, ‘Of course, the term speciation should only be used when referring to sexually reproducing organisms, but our work shows much the same patterns.‘ The exciting part, says Otto, is that ‘we start with no replicators, but see first one type emerge and then after a while, another. That is certainly most significant!’

One physicist’s take on the new research

Physicist Rob Sheldon made a pithy observation regarding the University of Groningen’s latest press release and the new paper by Sandownik, Mattia, Nowak and Otto: “If this paper were about anything but ‘peptides’, it would be called ‘crystallization’.”

Indeed. Crystals have been shown to exhibit many of the properties displayed by Professor Otto’s peptide structures. I would invite skeptical readers to have a look at a 2013 article titled, It’s almost alive! Scientists create a near-living crystal by Brandon Keim (Wired, January 31, 2013). Written in a tone of breathless anticipation, the article exudes the same kind of starry-eyed optimism as the University of Groningen press release, as it reports on how particles of a mineral called hematite (pictured above, image courtesy of Wikipedia) can be coaxed into forming “living crystals”:

Three billion years after inanimate chemistry first became animate life, a newly synthesized laboratory compound is behaving in uncannily lifelike ways.

The particles aren’t truly alive — but they’re not far off, either. Exposed to light and fed by chemicals, they form crystals that move, break apart and form again.

“There is a blurry frontier between active and alive,” said biophysicist Jérémie Palacci of New York University….

Palacci and fellow NYU physicist Paul Chaikin led a group of researchers in developing the particles, which are described Jan. 31 in Science as forming “living crystals” in the right chemical conditions….

Chaikin notes that life is difficult to define, but can be said to possess metabolism, mobility, and the ability to self-replicate. His crystals have the first two, but not the last.

As for what’s happening now in Palacci and Chaikin’s lab, a particle currently under development isn’t mobile, but it has a metabolism and is self-replicating.

We’re working on it,” Chaikin said.

The abstract of Palacci and Chaikin’s paper can be found here.

Now, to be fair, I should point out that the structures created by the University of Groningen team are capable of a kind of self-replication – that is, if you’re willing to call breaking in two “replication.” But that’s about the only thing they can do, that Palacci and Chaikin couldn’t – and in any case, they state towards the end of the article that they have now created a self-replicating particle which has a metabolism. So on the whole, I think Rob Sheldon’s remarks are pretty accurate. These peptide structures are no more alive than some crystals are.

The dogs that didn’t bark

Silver Blaze,” one of the most popular Sherlock Holmes stories written by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, is a tale about the mysterious kidnapping of a prize race horse on the eve of an important race, and the apparent murder of its trainer. At one point in the story, the Scotland Yard detective, Inspector Gregory, asks Holmes: “Is there any other point to which you would wish to draw my attention?” “To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time,” answers Holmes. Inspector Gregory objects: “The dog did nothing in the night-time.” “That was the curious incident,” remarks Holmes.

This telling exchange inspired The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time, a 2003 best-selling novel by Mark Haddon.

The reason why I bring this up is that although the January 4 press release, “The origins of abiotic life,” was featured in Phys.org and Science Daily, it seems to have attracted remarkably little comment. Professor Jerry Coyne hasn’t mentioned it over at his Website, Why Evolution Is True. Nor has Professor Larry Moran said anything about it on his Sandwalk blog. Professor P.Z. Myers hasn’t said a word about it on his Pharyngula blog, either. This is quite remarkable, considering that three whole days have elapsed since the University of Groningen’s press release.

Why this deafening silence from North America’s leading evolution advocates? The only reason I can think of is that they don’t think that the new paper by Professor Otto and his team has any real relevance to the origin of life on Earth. What does that tell you about the paper?

But it would be churlish of me to dismiss a paper simply because no-one else had bothered to comment on it. So without further ado, I’d like to enumerate seven reasons why I think the paper fails to shed light on the origin of life on Earth, and of new species.

Seven reasons why the new paper fails to shed light on the origin of life and of new species

1. The peptide structures were the product of intelligent design

The Methods section of the paper (by Sandownik, Mattia, Nowak and Otto) describes how the peptide library was prepared: “Peptide building blocks 1 and 2 were synthesized by Cambridge Peptides Ltd from 3,5-bis(tritylthio)benzoic acid, which was prepared via a previously reported procedure…”. Building blocks 1 and 2 consisted of “an aromatic core functionalized with two thiol groups and a peptide chain”. The paper’s authors produced a dynamic combinatorial library from “building blocks that can react with each other through reversible covalent chemistry combine and recombine to give rise to a diverse set of products”.

The paper also states:

“Each building block is equipped with two thiol groups which, when oxidized to disulfides, form macrocyclic species of different ring sizes. The peptide sequence is designed to have alternating hydrophilic and hydrophobic residues to promote self-assembly into parallel β-sheets.”

(The following very brief explanation is intended for the benefit of readers who don’t have a strong background in chemistry. 3,5-Bis(tritylthio)benzoic acid looks like this and has the chemical formula C45H34O2S2. The term “aromatic” may be used to refer informally to any chemicals derived from the hexagonal, ring-shaped hydrocarbon, benzene, although it can also broadly refer to any flat, cyclic molecule that’s highly stable: for instance, the double-ringed bases in RNA and DNA are also described as aromatic. A thiol group is simply an -SH group, where S represents a sulfur atom and H represents a hydrogen atom. A disulfide refers to a functional group with the general structure R–S–S–R: the two sulfur atoms in the middle are bonded to one another, and the two R’s are groups of atoms containing carbon and/or hydrogen. A peptide is a sequence of amino acid molecules which are bonded together in a short chain. Finally, a molecule which is attracted to water is called hydrophilic, while one which is not attracted to water is called hydrophobic.)

An anonymous biochemist whom I contacted has forwarded his comments to me. The following is a brief summary of his remarks:

This is a very well-designed and skillfully performed piece of chemical engineering (based on some very nicely done research), in which peptide building blocks (as distinct from pure natural peptides) were made by a chemist, not via a natural process. Hopwever, its significance in relation to the origin of biological replication is highly questionable.

Additionally:

The description of the study shows how strong the design component was in these experiments. The carefully ordered formation of covalent bonds was guided by the designed structure of the building blocks, and the alternating hydrophobicity and hydrophilicity was designed to promote the formation of higher order structures.

I have to ask: since when does evidence of Intelligent Design count as evidence for unguided evolution?

2. The reactions would never occur under realistic conditions – and if they did, they’d rapidly come to a halt

The biochemist whom I contacted didn’t think that the conditions in the experiment were very realistic, either. He also pointed out that the reactions described in the paper would soon grind to a halt, under natural conditions. The following two paragraphs are intended to convey the gist of his comments.

This experiment is far removed from OOL [origin of life] conditions, where the reactions and structures would occur at random, and where a very large number of “undesirable” reactions would inevitably occur, drastically reducing the chances of obtaining the “correct” reactions under the assumed OOL conditions.

Under natural OOL conditions, a large number of unwanted reactions could (and probably would) occur, in a solution containing a multitude of different chemical components. Instead of obtaining a functioning system with life-like properties, the end result would be chaotic and unpredictable. Additionally, under natural conditions, the chemical reactions could lead to a dead end, and they would probably not be very useful for generating a replication system from nucleic acids. If this kind of self-organization were common in nature, then we could end up with a very large number of competing systems, which would rapidly deplete the chemical raw materials being used to build nucleic acids. In practice, however, hydrolysis and decomposition, as well as the formation of large amounts of “unwanted” chemical products, would seem to be the dominant trends.

Despite these criticisms, the biochemist whom I contacted wished to compliment the authors of the paper, on the quality of their scientific work. He added that it would indeed be possible for intelligent chemists to build systems that were capable of undergoing intelligently guided molecular evolution, as Otto et al. have done, and he expressed his opinion that they had actually generated a very interesting “evolutionary molecular system.”

3. The structures observed could not possibly have been precursors to the first living organisms on Earth

Another reason why the new paper by Sandownik, Mattia, Nowak and Otto fails to shed light on the origin of life on Earth is that the structures which they created are totally unrelated to those found in living things today. Want proof? I would invite readers to have a look at the article, Diversification of self-replicating molecules in Nature Chemistry, and scroll down and click on Figure 1: Library synthesis and the mechanism of self-replication. Have a look at the ring-structures created by the team of researchers. You’ll notice the six-rings and seven-rings described in the Youtube video at the top of this post. That’s what Professor Otto’s team created.

And now have a look at the diagram below, which depicts three possible representations of the three-dimensional structure of the protein triose phosphate isomerase. Hideously complicated, isn’t it? That’s what life is like. I don’t see any nice little rings of six, seven or eight molecules each. Do you?

I have focused on proteins here, because they’re the next step up from polypeptides. A protein consists of one or more long chains of amino acid units (or residues, in chemical jargon). A protein contains at least one long polypeptide. Short polypeptides, containing less than 20-30 amino acid units (or residues), aren’t usually considered by biochemists to be proteins. Instead, they’re just called peptides, or oligopeptides.

Now my point is that if the peptide structures created by Professor Otto and his team don’t look anything like proteins (much less anyother biological molecule found in living things), then we can safely assume that their relevance to the origin of life on Earth is: nil, nada, nothing, zip, zilch. Zero.

4. There are good reasons to believe that life didn’t begin with a self-replicating molecule

In any case, there are solid scientific reasons for rejecting the idea that life on Earth began with a self-replicating molecule – in which case, the claim by Professor Otto and his team to have created such a molecule is neither here nor there.

The late Professor Robert Shapiro (1935-2011) explained what’s wrong with the replicator-first theory in an interview with Vlad Tarko of Softpedia (Life Did Not Appear with A Self-Replicating Molecule, May 17, 2006):

A scientist proposes an alternative theory to the “replicator” theories of the origin of life – the idea that a self-replicating molecule, such as RNA, has spontaneously appeared and then spread and diversified.

Robert Shapiro from New York University calls such a possibility a “stupendously improbable accident”, although chemists managed to create “prebiotic” syntheses in the lab – syntheses of various building blocks of life such as amino acids. Shapiro says that the use of modern apparatuses and purified reagents is very unlikely to mimic the actual conditions on early Earth.

He says that one of the problems of replicator theories is that a high diversity of molecules of all sorts seems to hamper and endanger the replicator. The mere complexity of the assumed original replicator makes it to be unstable. He argues that what probably happened was the exact opposite – chemical variety was probably beneficial and increased the probability of life. The issue is how this chemical diversity eventually turned into self-replicating chemicals – i.e. life…

The appearance of a molecule that can self-replicate was not the first step, because this requires the combination of diverse chemicals in a long sequence of reactions in a specific order.

Of course, Professor Robert Shapiro’s “metabolism first” theory of the origin of life on Earth faces its own problems, as Leslie Orgel pointed out in an article titled, The Implausibility of Metabolic Cycles on the Prebiotic Earth (PLoS Biology 6(1): e18. doi:10.1371/journal.pbio.0060018 – see here for a non-technical overview by microbiologist Rich Deem). But the point I wish to make is that the “replicator-first” theory espoused by Professor Otto and his team is a very fragile one. It cannot work without just the right sequence of reactions occurring in just the right order, in just the right environment (to ensure that no decomposition occurred, along the way) – in other words, a miracle.

5. The new structures are not alive, in any meaningful sense of the term

Former “Science” editor-in-chief Daniel Koshland Jr. attempted to define “life” in a widely-cited article titled, “Seven pillars of life” (Science 22 March 2002: Vol. 295 no. 5563 pp. 2215-2216, DOI: 10.1126/science.1068489). Koshland listed what he saw as the seven defining features of life:

(1) a program, i.e. “an organized plan that describes both the ingredients themselves and the kinetics of the interactions among ingredients as the living system persists through time” (Koshland, 2002, p. 2215);

(2) improvisation, or a way of changing its master program (achieved on Earth through mutation);

(3) compartmentalization (a surface membrane or skin, and for large organisms, a subdivision into cells, in order to preserve the ingredients required for chemical reactions at their required concentrations);

(4) energy (which on Earth comes from the Sun or the Earth’s internal heat), to keep living systems metabolizing;

(5) regeneration (this includes reproduction), to compensate for the wear and tear on a living system;

(6) behavioral adaptability to environmental hazards; and

(7) seclusion, or some way of preventing one set of chemical reactions from interfering with another, in a cell.

When we look at the peptide structures created by Professor Otto and his team, what do we find? Which conditions are satisfied?

First, the structures lack a master program. Second, lacking a master program, they also lack the ability to modify their master program. Third, the structures possess no internal compartments whatsoever. While they have access to a source of energy (heat), they don’t metabolize, so Koshland’s fourth condition isn’t satisfied, either. (That’s why Professor Otto’s reference to “food” in the press release is misleading.) However, the fifth and sixth conditions are met, in some fashion: the structures can replicate, and they adapt to changes in the availability of different kinds of building blocks. Finally, the structures possess no mechanism for preventing one set of chemical reactions from interfering with another.

Overall Score: 2 out of 7. That’s a pretty long way from what I’d call “life.”

Of course, if you’re intellectually lazy, and you want to define the term “life” to mean anything that can replicate, then don’t let me stop you. But by the same token, many other things would also qualify as alive. As Dr. Steve Wolfram points out in his book, A New Kind of Science (Wolfram Research, 2002, p. 824, it has been known since the 1950s that abstract computational systems possess this capacity as well. Computer viruses would also qualify as alive, on the definition proposed, and there are mechanical devices (such as the “RepRap” machine shown below) that can make copies of themselves, too. How many readers would want to call these devices “alive”?

6. The term “mutant” is an inappropriate way of describing the variants that arose

In their press release, Professor Otto and his team use the term “mutant” to refer to a replicating molecule which is slightly different from the original version, because it tends to specialize in different building blocks, when assembling itself. However, as we have seen from Daniel Koshland’s article, “The Seven Pillars of Life“, which I cited above, the word “mutation” properly refers to an organism’s ability to change its master program. Since the structures described in the University of Groningen press release don’t possess anything analogous to a master program, or a genetic code, it follows that they can’t properly be said to mutate.

7. The processes observed in the lab shed no light on speciation, whatsoever

Finally, the processes described in the press release by Professor Otto and his team have absolutely nothing to do with speciation in living things. How can I be so sure of that? There are two things that give the game away.

The first is a very damaging admission in the last paragraph of the press release:

The next step is to introduce death. This can be done by feeding the system a constant flow of building blocks, while draining the contents of the reaction vessel. Replicators can only survive in this system when their growth rate exceeds the removal rate. ‘We could then seed such a system with one set of replicator mutants, and then change the environment, for example by adding another solvent. This would change the fitness of the various replicator mutants and shift the population of mutants towards those that are best at replicating in the new environment.’ The result would be a form of natural selection that Darwin would recognize. ‘We’re not the only ones to be really excited about these experiments – the evolutionary biologist I’ve consulted is too.’

Stop right there. The structures created by Professor Otto and his team don’t die. Consequently, they don’t undergo natural selection. The term, “survival of the fittest,” simply doesn’t apply to them, because they don’t even possess the property of “fitness.”

Without natural selection, speciation which results from a population becoming reproductively isolated from a founder population as it enters and colonizes a new niche, would never get off the ground. Such a model assumes that the new population becomes “fitter,” in relation to its new environment, over the course of time – which means that natural selection has to occur. But as we’ve seen, Professor Otto and his team haven’t achieved natural selection yet. Their excitement is, to say the very least, premature.

The other give-away is that the press release makes no mention whatsoever of a genetic code. And without a genetic code, there can be no genes – and hence, no genetic drift. That rules out other mechanisms of speciation, which rely on the occurrence of genetic drift in a population, in order to achieve reproductive isolation.

No natural selection, no genetic drift: no speciation. Of course, there are also species which are created through hybridization, but that presupposes the existence of genes and sexual reproduction – neither of which are found in the peptide structures created by Professor Otto and his team.

I conclude that the January 4 press release by the University of Groningen on the research conducted by Professor Otto and his team has very little relevance for the origin of life on Earth via an unguided process, much less the origin of living species.

What do readers think?

Comments
EugeneS: the text and the processor must arise at the same time! In the case of a posited self-replicating RNA molecule, the text and the processor are the same thing.Zachriel
January 25, 2016
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Zachriel can't even see the issue: the text and the processor must arise at the same time! An irreducibly complex structure at its worst is at stake here. But it is apparently beyond Zachriel. It is indeed word games. The moment he says "meaning", there must be an appropriate definition for it in the context of pragmatic utility in the system. He does not understand (or makes believe he doesn't) that nature does not care if anything maintains its own state. Pragmatic utility is about quality. Nature is indifferent to quality (accuracy, tenacity, buoyancy, minimax type of criteria such as chemical stability AND reactivity where chemicals react only 'as needed'). That is why naturally produced regularities are not dynamically stable. Consequently, fine control is necessary in order to maximize utility. Algorithmic control is an absolute killer of RNA-world and other rubbish of the same sort.EugeneS
January 25, 2016
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Mung: What if I do not read English? Again, one doesn't have to read English, just notice patterns. Even an isolated snippet of English text will usually have lower entropy than a random sequence. Taking the first line of Gadsby again, there are 29 symbols, so would normally require 4.86 bits per symbol to encode. However, due to the uneven distribution of symbols in the text (lots of A's, O's and T's), the Shannon entropy is only 4.20 bits per symbol. http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/myl/ldc/llog/ShannonEntropy.gif A much longer transmission of English text will generally have even lower entropy.Zachriel
January 23, 2016
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RNA World posits that self-replication arose through natural means. . .
We know what it posits. You don't need to keep endlessly repeating the speculative theory as though it were an answer. Evidence, please.Eric Anderson
January 22, 2016
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Zachriel: you should be able to guess most of the remaining letters I see were back to playing games. Not interested in playing your games Zachriel. This is ground already covered. What if I do not read English? And around and around we go. Do you have any clue what you’re talking about?Mung
January 22, 2016
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Zachriel:
RNA World posits that self-replication arose through natural means,
1- Define "natural means" 2- Provide the evidence for such a thing Prediction- Zachriel will not do soVirgil Cain
January 22, 2016
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Mung: Counting E’s and A’s in a telegram isn’t going to give you the probability distribution of the source. Take the first line of Gadsby. If we randomly delete every tenth character or so,
If Youth, thr-u-hout all h-story, had -ad a champion to stan- u- f-r it; to show a doub-in- worl- th-t a child ca- th-nk;-and- possibl-, do it practically;-you wo-ldn't constantly run ac-oss fol-s today who claim that "a child don't-know anyt-ing."
you should be able to guess most of the remaining letters. As noted above, Shannon showed that the entropy of English is about 1 bit per character. There is substantial redundancy in English, which can be a good thing, as even if the error rate is high, the message can still be transmitted intact.Zachriel
January 22, 2016
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Zachriel: You don’t have to know the English language to notice that most telegrams have lots of E’s and A’s. Counting E's and A's in a telegram isn't going to give you the probability distribution of the source. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadsby_%28novel%29Mung
January 22, 2016
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EugeneS: And for that, you need guess what? Control, which is inherently telic. RNA World posits that self-replication arose through natural means, though whether it is RNA-first or not is still an open question.Zachriel
January 22, 2016
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"In RNA World, the sequences include the capability of self-replication, so they are not without meaning or value in terms of their continuance through time." And for that, you need guess what? Control, which is inherently telic. Especially in cases of algorithmic control. The more you delve into detail, the more you become convinced that this can really only be intelligently guided, probably as complex as in today's chemical factories. There is a big gap here, ever growing in time, that needs bridging. Being a naturalist, it takes a leap of faith to get over it.EugeneS
January 22, 2016
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Mung: The bits and bytes which pass through the Internet are called bits and bytes. Cisco: "A router acts as a dispatcher, choosing the best path for information to travel so it's received quickly." Wikipedia: "A hard disk drive (HDD), hard disk, hard drive or fixed disk[b] is a data storage device used for storing and retrieving digital information" WordReference: information: "(in information theory) an indication of the number of possible choices of messages, expressible as the value of some monotonic function of the number of choices, usually the logarithm to the base 2." Not sure the usefulness of arguing semantics. Information is clearly used in more than one sense. If you want to use a different sense, just say so, but don't falsely claim other senses don't exist. Mung: How does Shannon Entropy tell us what the probability distribution is? By looking at the data-stream. You don't have to know the English language to notice that most telegrams have lots of E's and A's.Zachriel
January 21, 2016
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Mung @95: Any measuring tool needs parameters to operate. And an investigator typically needs to know something about the object in question and the parameters that can be applied to perform a proper measurement. (Don't ask me to pull out my Imperial scale in pounds to measure the distance from Los Angeles to New York in kilometers -- wrong tool, wrong unit of measure.) You keep harping on the fact that we have to plug some parameters into your Shannon tool in order for the tool to kick out a coherent measurement. Yes, of course. We have to know something about what we are measuring in order to measure it correctly. All of that most certainly does not mean that we aren't measuring a property of the string. Just as when we measure anything we are measuring some property of the thing measured. Surely you aren't suggesting that (i) we are pulling the measurement out of thin air, or (ii) we are fully imposing the measurement from without. Unquestionably it is a property of the object in question that we are measuring. Otherwise, there is nothing to measure and no need to do the measurement. This is so self evident, that I highly doubt we have a substantive dispute on the issue. Maybe just using different terminology?Eric Anderson
January 20, 2016
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Zachriel:
Shannon Entropy measures the uncertainty in a random variable, that is, the expected quantity of data to be communicated in a data-stream. That data is usually called information in the modern sense of the word.
Do you have any clue what you're talking about?Mung
January 20, 2016
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Zachriel: The bits and bytes which pass through the Internet are called information. The bits and bytes which pass through the Internet are called bits and bytes. Routers don't know what they are routing and nut crackers don't know what they are squeezing. Routers no more tell us what information is than do nut crackers tell us what nuts are. But do carry on Zachriel. I'm sure someone finds your claims convincing. Zachriel: Understanding the meaning of the symbols isn’t required to determine the Shannon Entropy, just letter and letter-combination frequency. IOW, your puzzle was misguided. At least you admit it. What is needed is knowledge of [information about] the probability distribution. How does Shannon Entropy tell us what the probability distribution is? It doesn't. That's why I disagree with Eric about this statement:
It measures a particular characteristic of a string.
It [Shannon Entropy / Shannon Information / Shannon Measure] doesn't measure anything absent a known or assumed probability distribution. We can't look at a string of symbols and from that string of symbols, by means of Shannon's formulae, discover the probability distribution. Feel free to show me why I am wrong.Mung
January 20, 2016
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We can make the distinction, but the meaningfulness of a sentence is often subjective.
That may be but all words are defined, ie they have meaning.Virgil Cain
January 20, 2016
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A router routes information.
Only if provided the proper information. :) According to Meyer in SitC ID's use of the word is: b : the attribute inherent in and communicated by one of two or more alternative sequences or arrangements of something (as nucleotides in DNA or binary digits in a computer program) that produce specific effects So we can determine the Shannon Entropy/ information carrying capacity, and observe any special effects, as in the transcription of DNA into mRNA, the processing of that mRNA and then the translation into functioning protein.Virgil Cain
January 20, 2016
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Mung: What if I did not read English? Understanding the meaning of the symbols isn't required to determine the Shannon Entropy, just letter and letter-combination frequency.Zachriel
January 20, 2016
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Mung: And a nut cracker cracks nuts The bits and bytes which pass through the Internet are called information. There may be other uses for the word, but that is certainly one of them.Zachriel
January 20, 2016
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If you can guess the next letter, then transmitting the letter gives you no additional knowledge. What if I guessed wrong? What if I did not read English?Mung
January 20, 2016
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A computer stores information. A router routes information. And a nut cracker cracks nuts, and we still call it a nut cracker when it's not actually cracking any nuts. We could also us it to squeeze grapes.Mung
January 20, 2016
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Zachriel: Is data on the Internet information? Eric Anderson: Do you believe it is possible to have information that does not inform, that contains no meaning? It depends on the sense of the word information. A computer stores information. A router routes information. We say that even if we have no idea of the content of the data-stream. It may be Shakespeare. It may be doggerel. It may be gibberish. However, one can also use the word information to refer to data about something. Eric Anderson: And by “data” it sounds like you mean “information. We're looking for a term with a neutral sense to represent the stream of communication. As to whether anyone cares about the data, or finds it meaningful, that is largely subjective. Eric Anderson: you are saying that Shannon Entropy is a measure of the quantity of information that could be communicated in a given string. Yes. And that depends on the structure of the data being transmitted. For instance, knowing that a data-stream is a text in the English language, Shannon showed that the entropy is only about one bit per letter. You can discover this yourself by playing the Shannon Game. Given a bit of text, try to guess the next lette_. If you can guess the next letter, then transmitting the letter gives you no additional knowledge.Zachriel
January 20, 2016
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Do you believe it is possible to have information that does not inform, that contains no meaning? -----
. . . that is, the expected quantity of data to be communicated in a data-stream.
I presume you mean "data that could be communicated in a data-stream," not necessarily is communicated? And by "data" it sounds like you mean "information. Fine for present purposes. So to reword slightly, you are saying that Shannon Entropy is a measure of the quantity of information that could be communicated in a given string. Am I understanding you correctly?Eric Anderson
January 20, 2016
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Eric Anderson: If you cannot, or will not, acknowledge a meaningful difference between a coherent sentence in, say, the English language and a string of random gibberish, then there is no point in having a discussion with you. We can make the distinction, but the meaningfulness of a sentence is often subjective. Eric Anderson: It isn’t helpful to come back with some vague assertion about information on the internet being subjective. Is data on the Internet information? Eric Anderson: Give it whatever label we want. What does it mean in substance, what is it referring to? Shannon Entropy measures the uncertainty in a random variable, that is, the expected quantity of data to be communicated in a data-stream. That data is usually called information in the modern sense of the word.Zachriel
January 20, 2016
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Zachriel is just a bloviating equivocator, and that is being nice.Virgil Cain
January 20, 2016
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Zachriel, do you even understand the point at issue, or are you just arguing for argument's sake? If you cannot, or will not, acknowledge a meaningful difference between a coherent sentence in, say, the English language and a string of random gibberish, then there is no point in having a discussion with you. You don't need to battle just because you think you must battle against everything an ID proponent says, lest (heaven forbid) you should find yourself actually agreeing on some point. I'm not battling you on your suggestion that we refer to "Shannon Entropy". I'm taking that suggestion and running with it. Fine. Give it whatever label we want. What does it mean in substance, what is it referring to? It isn't helpful to come back with some vague assertion about information on the internet being subjective.Eric Anderson
January 20, 2016
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Eric Anderson: But regardless of terminology we should be careful not to fall into the trap of thinking that because we have produced real, meaningful information as a result of our investigation that such real, meaningful information was somehow contained in the thing measured or that the information was itself the thing being measured. Shannon's Theory of Communication is the basis of modern communications, including the Internet. Whether you consider most of what is posted on the Internet to be "real, meaningful information" is subjective.Zachriel
January 20, 2016
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So we have three components. As we always do when investigating anything: 1. Some property of the thing being measured. 2. Some tool to do the measuring. 3. Some output of the tool. #3 is clearly information. Produced, as always, by an intelligent being through intellectual effort -- in this case our work of investigation and the tool we have created. When we say that "Shannon Information" means something, or informs us about something, we are talking about this information that we have produced in our investigation of the thing being measured. It informs, it describes, it has meaning, it can be encoded in an agreed-upon language and system of weights and measures (such as when we say "100 bits"), it can be translated into different languages, etc. It is "information" in every sense of the word. #2 is not information in and of itself (although the tool may of course contain or utilize information in its operation). #1 is the confusing case for many people. If we produce information as part of our investigation (#3), does that mean we are measuring information? No. It does not. It means simply that we are measuring some property of the thing being measured. If I measure the length of a box, it does not mean I am measuring information. I am measuring a physical property of the box and producing information as the output of my intellectual endeavor. It is no different with a string of characters or anything else we are measuring. ----- All that said, I again repeat: I recognize that history and inertia will probably never allow us to clean up the terminology confusion associated with this issue. But regardless of terminology we should be careful not to fall into the trap of thinking that because we have produced real, meaningful information as a result of our investigation that such real, meaningful information was somehow contained in the thing measured or that the information was itself the thing being measured.Eric Anderson
January 19, 2016
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Shannon Entropy works for any probability distribution.Mung
January 18, 2016
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Zachriel: When you measure a stick with a ruler, is it referring to the thing measured or the result of the measurement? Eric Anderson: Don’t confuse the discussion. We haven’t even talked about the ruler yet. By answering the question, we can better understand what you are trying to ask. If you say the stick is 10" long, you are making a claim about the measured property of the stick. Similarly for Shannon Entropy: it is a claim about a measured property of a communication.Zachriel
January 18, 2016
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Just answer the question: You said the proper term is "Shannon Entropy." The proper term for what -- the thing measured or the resulting information from the measurement? This is not a trick question. I am not trying to catch you in some mistake. What do you think your "Shannon Entropy" is referring to? The thing measured or the information resulting from the measurement? ---- P.S. Don't confuse the discussion. We haven't even talked about the ruler yet. I'm confident you aren't suggesting "Shannon Entropy" might be the term to describe the tool of measurement . . .Eric Anderson
January 17, 2016
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