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The “Skeptical” Zone, Where You Can Be Skeptical of Anything (Except Currently Fashionable Intellectual Dogmas)

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For those of you who do not know, some months ago Elizabeth Liddle started the website known as The Skeptical Zone (TSZ). The site has a sort of symbiotic relationship with UD, because many, if not most, of the posts there key off our posts here.

Not only does TSZ have a name that invokes a skeptical turn of mind, it also has a motto apparently intended to bolster that attitude: “I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible that you may be mistaken.” The motto is taken from Oliver Cromwell’s August 5, 1650 letter to the synod of the Church of Scotland urging them to break their alliance with royalist forces.

Now with a name and a motto like that, one might think the site is home to iconoclastic non-conformists bent on disrupting the status quo. But you would be wrong. I just finished pursuing the articles that have been posted at TSZ during the last six months. Among the regular posters there I found not a single article that even mildly criticized (far less expressed skepticism toward) a single dogma one would expect to be held by the denizens of the faculty lounge at a typical university.

Atheism. It’s true

Neo-Darwinian Synthesis. Fact beyond the slightest doubt

Philosophical materialism. Check

It seems that the regular posters at TSZ are skeptical of everything but the received wisdom, accepted conventions and cherished dogmas of the academic left. Perhaps they should change the name of the site ever so slightly to The “Skeptical” Zone. The irony quotes would make the name more honest.

Here’s a clue to the TSZ posters: If you want to be a real skeptic, perhaps you should challenge the beliefs of the secular elite that dominate our universities instead of marching in lockstep with them. The true skeptics of the early twenty-first century are those willing to take on the dogmas of the academic elite, people like Bill Dembski, Michael Behe, and Jonathan Wells.

The posters at The Skeptical Zone are skeptical alright.  They are skeptical of skeptics.  As for their motto, they certainly think it is possible that someone might be mistaken – anyone who disagrees with them or questions their deeply held beliefs.

Why don’t the posters at TSZ see the glaringly obvious irony of their enterprise? I was thinking about this question when I ran across a post by Matt Emerson over at FT. Emerson writes about how the dogmas of secularism act as a type of “revelation” that boxes in thinking in a way secularist thinkers probably don’t even perceive at a conscious level.  Emerson writes:

Even among those who declare no connection with God, reason operates under what amounts to a kind of revelation. These skeptics don’t conceive of revelation in the same way that I do as a Catholic, but for many, the ultimate source of an epistemological “guide” does not matter: Certain perceived facts, or certain foundational positions, hold the same thetical value for them as the Bible does for many Christians. For these men and women, as for the medievals, it might be technically possible to reason “outside” these givens, but why would they? To ask them to reason as if those givens were not true would be akin to asking a Christian to reason apart from the Incarnation. It just doesn’t make any sense.

Comments
I had to weigh in for a moment.
And we appreciate that! Missing Telic Thoughts already?Alan Fox
March 26, 2013
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I am TEC and have posted my share on TSZ. its a reasonable and fair forum.
Whats "TEC", Robert? What drives me is the conviction that there is a fundamental right to free expression and any limits on those rights are worthy of the deepest scepticism. But the counterbalance is that if you make a factual claim in a public forum (false advertiusing claims would be a good example; I would like that to extend to false religious claims too ;) ) you should be able to support it and be challenged on it. Hence the criticism of selective moderation as a tool to massage comment content.Alan Fox
March 26, 2013
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Barry is right. I've always found TSZ's subtitle, that overwrought 'I BESEECH from the BOWELS of CHRIST' gimmick, entirely hypocritical. Or at least, deceptive. They beseech you - please, please! - consider that you may be wrong. You. As in, not them. THEY are quite certain they are right, thank you very much, and won't be changing their views anytime soon. But please, PLEASE change YOUR views. Contra Neil - who is, at the very least, rather unique in his perspective - I don't think the fact that they're willing to let people who disagree with them comment there really does much to show Barry is wrong. They view it either as an opportunity to collectively go on the attack or, if they don't manage to sufficiently harm the view they're attacking, obfuscate. At least if it's a theistic, non-materialist position. I don't talk about them much - I don't think they're worth the bother or attention, considering how many of them are swampers. But seeing this, I had to weigh in for a moment.nullasalus
March 25, 2013
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Neil, Here at UD, I had a six-month long conversation with Elizabeth Liddle regarding the semiotic state of protein synthesis. She claimed to be able to write a simulation demonstrating the rise of information from stochastic processes, and when she was forced to recant that claim, she then kicked off The Skeptical Zone with her initial thread based on the conversation we had been having. It could not possibly have gone un-noticed. To date, there are no less than six threads on TSZ regarding the evidence of genetic semiosis. Based on a specific premise (that it is impossible to transfer recorded information into an effect without using the matter/energy in the universe as a medium), I argued for four material conditions that flow from that premise. The conclusion of the argument was that a semiotic state observationally exist, and therefore the rise of information in the genome will require a mechanism capable of establishing that semiotic state. Beyond the time spent here with Dr Liddle, I also spent two and a half additional months at TSZ arguing the same evidence. During that entire time I did not notice a single point of diversity of opinion. You were active on both blogs at different points during that time period. Since you are here asking for traffic to The Skeptical Zone based on its diversity of opinion, would you mind clarifying your position? Can you demonstrate a flaw in either the material evidence presented, or the rationale?Upright BiPed
March 25, 2013
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Dick:
Atheists use the term “skeptic” in the same Orwellian fashion that they use the term “free-thinker.” In both cases it really means the opposite of what an unsuspecting bystander might think. The Princess Bride-Inigo Montoya to Vizzini:
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
:)
Joe
March 25, 2013
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I am TEC and have posted my share on TSZ. its a reasonable and fair forum. The thing for all forums is the need for more traffic. I never understand why these subjects which can generate heat, even amongst regular people, don't have more traffic. I guess people who put their minds to these things really are the chosen few. People lose confidence upon confrontation. I've been banned for NO good reason on evolutionist forums and some Christian ones over the years. They all need to lighten up and not imagine they are holding back historical forces. People need to be smarter and kinder when telling other serious thinkers they are WRONG! Somebody's wrong and going to be broken hearted as investigation of origins will in time reveal the errors. creationists being right means we need to be more gentle with the weaker folks. I truly feel sorry for evolutionists serious researchers/thinkers as they are coming into a embarrassing fll in our time. Especially once ID well degree-ed people added to the YEC old resistance. Indeed forums like these , thanks to the internet,must be speeding up the end of the story.Robert Byers
March 25, 2013
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Atheists use the term "skeptic" in the same Orwellian fashion that they use the term "free-thinker." In both cases it really means the opposite of what an unsuspecting bystander might think.Dick
March 25, 2013
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One thread you won't see over on TSZ, positive evidence for unguided evolution. That includes providing a testable hypothesis for unguided evolution. And I am sure that UD has had threads with positive evidence for ID AND with ID methodology. All the TSZ can say is "Uh-uh".Joe
March 25, 2013
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Neil @ 23. They are good questions aren't they. I will start a thread here.Barry Arrington
March 25, 2013
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Holy Darwin batman- it's robin:
Of course, skepticism would never apply to evolutionary theory right now anyway. The very reasons that evolution is even considered a theory automatically remove it from being an object of skepticism.
Right- dogma. Pure and simple. Can someone please provide a link or a valid reference to this alleged evolutionary theory? You know, peer-reviewed journal's name, volume, date, pages, author(s)- that sort of stuff required of scientific theories.Joe
March 25, 2013
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Responding to Phinehas (#20): You ask some good questions. They demonstrate that the way you look at evolution is very different from the way that I look at it. I'm interested in discussing those issues, but not here. I don't like taking a thread way off-topic for that, and a discussion will probably take a number of posts. My suggestion would be for me to start a thread at TSZ, quoting you. You can join up there, and we can discuss it there. And you can also see how other folk respond. An alternative would be for somebody to start a thread here, based primarily on your comment. In that case I'll discuss it here and I suspect folk at TSZ might join a parallel discussion there if they are interested. Over.Neil Rickert
March 25, 2013
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One cannot avoid metaphysics Neil. Your words are meaningless without a metaphysical context.
We are bound to disagree about that. I do not see anything metaphysical about meaning.Neil Rickert
March 25, 2013
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Neil Rickert:
I am not a materialist, because materialism is a metaphysical position, and I don’t do metaphysics. As best I can tell, metaphysics is impossible. The only method available for doing metaphysics appears to be making stuff up, and one should distrust what is made up.
One cannot avoid metaphysics Neil. Your words are meaningless without a metaphysical context.Box
March 25, 2013
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@Neil I also appreciate the professional tone. I am a skeptic regarding what evolution can actually accomplish. In keeping with your demonstrated patience, I'd be grateful if you would give serious consideration to something that keeps tripping me up. I’ve often thought of natural selection as the heuristic to random mutations’ exhaustive search. A path-finding algorithm can be aided in finding a path from point A to point B by using distance to B as a heuristic to narrow the search space. Without a heuristic, you are left to blind chance. It is said that evolution has no purpose or goal, so there is no point B. It is also claimed that evolution isn’t simply the result of blind chance, so a heuristic would seem to be required. Somehow, natural selection is supposed to address both of these concerns. Nature selects for fitness, we are told, so somehow we have a heuristic even without a point B. But what is fitness? How does it work as a heuristic? How is it defined? Evidently, it is all about reproductive success. But how does one measure reproductive success? This is where things get fuzzy for me. Surely evolution is a story about the rise of more and more complex organisms. Isn’t this how the tree of life is laid out? Surely it is the complexity of highly developed organisms that evolution seeks to explain. Surely Mt. Improbable has man near its peak and bacteria near its base. But by what metric is man more successful at reproducing than bacteria? If I am a sponge somewhere between the two extremes, how is a step toward bacteria any less of a point B for me than a step toward man? Why should the fitness heuristic prefer a step upward in complexity toward man in any way whatsoever over a step downward in complexity toward bacteria? It seems that, under the more obvious metrics for calculating reproductive success, bacteria are hard to beat. Even more, a rise in complexity, if anything, would appear to lead to less reproductive success and not more. So how can natural selection be any sort of heuristic for helping us climb Mt Improbable’s complexity when every simpler organism at the base of the mountain is at least as fit in passing on its genes as the more complex organisms near it’s peak? And without this heuristic, how are we not back to a blind, exhaustive search?Phinehas
March 25, 2013
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Newton- IDist Pasteur- IDist Einstein- IDist
It seems to me, Joe, that you are conflating “ID” with “Jesus” now.
Strange, it doesn't seem that way to me. Did Einstein say relativity was based on Jesus? Did Newton say any of his claims were based on Jesus? How about Pasteur? And again, ole ignorant one, ID is OK with God being the designer. It is OK with people believing God is the designer. ID does not require that the designer be God. How many times do you have to be told the basics only to have to screw them all up the next time you have diarrhea posts?Joe
March 25, 2013
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The fact that you might have expressed dissent on other forums or that you personally disagree with, say, Jerry Coyne on some issues does not bear on my conclusion, which was about the content of the posts at TSZ.
People start topics on what they are interested in discussing. I can only repeat my invitation for you to join, and start a topic on what you are interested in discussing.Neil Rickert
March 25, 2013
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Neil, Thank you for your response @12. I can base my conclusions only on what I read. If there is a post on the TSZ in the last six months that expresses even the slightest misgiving (far less outright skepticism) toward ANY idea currently fashionable in the academy, I missed it. Kindly point it out to me. The fact that you might have expressed dissent on other forums or that you personally disagree with, say, Jerry Coyne on some issues does not bear on my conclusion, which was about the content of the posts at TSZ. I was not talking about your personal views (except to the extent they were expresssed in posts at TSZ in the last six months) The fact that you are able to point to only a single comment (not a post, but a comment in some combox, which, I note, you did not link to) in all of the history of TSZ only supports my conclusion.Barry Arrington
March 25, 2013
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Neil @12: We may disagree on a lot of things, but I appreciate your measured and professional approach @12.Eric Anderson
March 25, 2013
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And yet almost every scientist in the world, knowing this, still refuses to believe in anything like Intelligent Design.
And yet they still cannpot provide any evidence for anything else! What does that tell you? Newton- IDist Pasteur- IDist Einstein- IDistJoe
March 25, 2013
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NR:
The neo-Darwinian synthesis is a scientific theory.
Just your say-so doesn't make it so, Neil. Can you link to it? No.Joe
March 25, 2013
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Perhaps you could support your claims by simply A) Linking to real paper that shows how ATP is evidence for ID. B) Linking to a real paper that shows how the genetic code is evidence for ID.
Both fit the criteria I posted, duh. That is abput as simple as it gets. Unfortunately OM is much more simple than that.Joe
March 25, 2013
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Among the regular posters there I found not a single article that even mildly criticized (far less expressed skepticism toward) a single dogma one would expect to be held by the vast majority of the denizens of the faculty lounge at a typical university.
You, too, can sign up there. And if you do, you will probably be given authorship rights. You will be able to start such an discussion yourself.
Atheism. It’s true
"Atheism" is not even a proposition. It makes no sense to say that it is true or to say that it is false. Personally, I disagree with a lot of things that some atheists say, and I have expressed that disagreement in comments on Jerry Coyne's blog.
Neo-Darwinian Synthesis. Fact beyond the slightest doubt
The neo-Darwinian synthesis is a scientific theory. My personal view is that scientific theories should be seen as guides to research, rather than as propositions. They should be seen as neither true nor false, but as useful. Some time ago, I started a thread at evcforum.net, where I dissented from neo-Darwinism (but not from evolution). At TSZ, I made a comment that I had some support for the ideas of James Shapiro, and his intelligence of the cell. Elizabeth Liddle, the owner of TSZ, responded that she had a similar view. The views of people at TSZ are not nearly as monolithic as you presume them to be.
Philosophical materialism. Check
There's a post on my own blog, on Why I am not a materialist. So come on over, and start the kind of skeptical topic that you would like to see. Perhaps you will be surprised at the diversity of opinion.Neil Rickert
March 25, 2013
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Perhaps you remember a little bit of history where “ID” has been the default position for most of human history?
Was it? If it was it is because materialism was tried and failed. And it still fails- well it can't even be tested to fail, that is how bad it is.Joe
March 25, 2013
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If the best that ID has is the fact that papers on pubmed that mention evolution don’t have a disclaimer on them that explains that, yes, they are in fact talking about “unguided blind watchmaker evolution” then those papers do not support evolution then ID is even more broken then I’d guessed. No, YOU are broken. The fact remains taht unguided evolution can't even muster a testable hypothesis. ID is supported in peer-review. ATP synthase is evidence for ID and written about in peer-review. The genetic code is evidence for ID and written about in peer-review. Howevber there isn't anything in peer-review which tells us 1- how to determine if evolution is unguided nor 2- any testable hypothsis for unguided evolution. And OM's cowardly refusal to post said hypothsis is very telling.
Joe
March 25, 2013
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The problem for you Joe is that if you asked the authors of those 318,926 papers if they were talking about some “Intelligent Design” version of evolution they say no, of course not. If they were, they’d have mentioned it.
They didn't mention unguided evolution. So they must not have been talking about it. Evolutionism is not a productive anything. It can't even muster a testable hypothsis. IOW you are a cowardly equivocator.Joe
March 25, 2013
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So Behe, Meyer, Wells, Johnson and millions of others have nothing to say?
No, they’ve said their piece. And can continue to speak if the like. As is their right. It’s just that what they are saying is not really convincing anybody.
Yet there are more people that accept ID than accept evolutionism. Many more.
So what I’m saying is that ID is done.
It's just getting started. Evolutionism is done, and has been. ID is supported by the evidence and our knowledge of cause and effect relationships.
Presumably this is “evidence” used in the same way that “design” is a “mechanism”?
Could be but then again you don't know anything about evidence. You don't know anything about science and you don't know anything about ID. So perhaps you should start by getting an education- something beyond first grade.Joe
March 25, 2013
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As of June 2012 there are 318,926 scientific papers in PubMed that mention ‘evolution’.
And not one for unguided nor blind watchmaker evolution. Your continued cowardly equivocation is duly noted.Joe
March 25, 2013
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More cluelessness:
Never wonder why ID seems to be built on what Darwinism can’t do Barry?
It isn't. Eliminating necessity and chance are mandated by science.
Never wonder why people like Joe are among the most vocal proponents of ID?
So Behe, Meyer, Wells, Johnson and millions of others have nothing to say? Never wonder why unguided evolution is unsupported and unsupportable?Joe
March 25, 2013
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Hypocrites and liars:
Despite the fact I’ve got Joe, only today, to basically say that ID is totally unsupported...
ID is supported by the evidence and our knowledge of cause and effect relationships. OM is confused as evolutionism is totally unsupported. It must make them feel big to lie about theior position and their opponent's position.Joe
March 25, 2013
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The ID movement is a big tent and all are welcome. Even agnostics and atheists are not in principle excluded provided they can adopt this open attitude of mind. In practice, however, agnostics and atheists have their minds made up. Agnostics know that nothing is knowable about a transcendent reality. And atheists know that no transcendent reality exists, so again nothing is knowable about it. Accordingly, agnostics and atheists tend not to join the ID movement. Johnson is a radical skeptic, insisting, in the best Socratic tradition, that everything be put on the table for examination. By contrast, most skeptics opposed to him are selective skeptics, applying their skepticism to the things they dislike (notably religion) and refusing to apply their skepticism to the things they do like (notably Darwinism). On two occasions I’ve urged Michael Shermer, publisher of Skeptic Magazine, to put me on its editorial board as the resident skeptic of Darwinism. Though Shermer and I know each other and are quite friendly, he never got back to me about joining his editorial board.
~ William Dembskibevets
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