Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

The “Skeptical” Zone, Where You Can Be Skeptical of Anything (Except Currently Fashionable Intellectual Dogmas)

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For those of you who do not know, some months ago Elizabeth Liddle started the website known as The Skeptical Zone (TSZ). The site has a sort of symbiotic relationship with UD, because many, if not most, of the posts there key off our posts here.

Not only does TSZ have a name that invokes a skeptical turn of mind, it also has a motto apparently intended to bolster that attitude: “I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible that you may be mistaken.” The motto is taken from Oliver Cromwell’s August 5, 1650 letter to the synod of the Church of Scotland urging them to break their alliance with royalist forces.

Now with a name and a motto like that, one might think the site is home to iconoclastic non-conformists bent on disrupting the status quo. But you would be wrong. I just finished pursuing the articles that have been posted at TSZ during the last six months. Among the regular posters there I found not a single article that even mildly criticized (far less expressed skepticism toward) a single dogma one would expect to be held by the denizens of the faculty lounge at a typical university.

Atheism. It’s true

Neo-Darwinian Synthesis. Fact beyond the slightest doubt

Philosophical materialism. Check

It seems that the regular posters at TSZ are skeptical of everything but the received wisdom, accepted conventions and cherished dogmas of the academic left. Perhaps they should change the name of the site ever so slightly to The “Skeptical” Zone. The irony quotes would make the name more honest.

Here’s a clue to the TSZ posters: If you want to be a real skeptic, perhaps you should challenge the beliefs of the secular elite that dominate our universities instead of marching in lockstep with them. The true skeptics of the early twenty-first century are those willing to take on the dogmas of the academic elite, people like Bill Dembski, Michael Behe, and Jonathan Wells.

The posters at The Skeptical Zone are skeptical alright.  They are skeptical of skeptics.  As for their motto, they certainly think it is possible that someone might be mistaken – anyone who disagrees with them or questions their deeply held beliefs.

Why don’t the posters at TSZ see the glaringly obvious irony of their enterprise? I was thinking about this question when I ran across a post by Matt Emerson over at FT. Emerson writes about how the dogmas of secularism act as a type of “revelation” that boxes in thinking in a way secularist thinkers probably don’t even perceive at a conscious level.  Emerson writes:

Even among those who declare no connection with God, reason operates under what amounts to a kind of revelation. These skeptics don’t conceive of revelation in the same way that I do as a Catholic, but for many, the ultimate source of an epistemological “guide” does not matter: Certain perceived facts, or certain foundational positions, hold the same thetical value for them as the Bible does for many Christians. For these men and women, as for the medievals, it might be technically possible to reason “outside” these givens, but why would they? To ask them to reason as if those givens were not true would be akin to asking a Christian to reason apart from the Incarnation. It just doesn’t make any sense.

Comments
Lizzie @296 via Mung: I am gratified to read Lizzie's comment. I wish many others would at least acknowledge this much, as failure to do so is clearly motivated by something other than objective reason. So design detection, as a general enterprise, is legitimate and can be a scientific undertaking. I understand she is, however, concerned with the parameters placed on the design inference and believes that false positives and false negatives can result. As to false negatives, that is a red herring. ID has never been about identifying everything that is designed. Indeed, we know that things can be purposely designed to appear not designed. ID has never proposed that we should be able to draw a design inference about everything that has ever been designed; only that we can draw an inference that some things are designed. This all harks back to the basics of ID. As I mentioned in my Brief Primer on Intelligent Design from a decade ago (on my now-defunct website):
As a result, intelligent design is limited in two important aspects: it can neither identify all things that are designed, nor can it tell us with certainty that a particular thing is not designed. But that leaves one remaining possibility: is it possible to identify with certainty some things that are designed? Dembski and Behe would argue that the answer is “yes.”
http://web.archive.org/web/20090322184411/http://www.evolutiondebate.info/Brief%20Primer%20on%20Intelligent%20Design.htm As to false positives, this is a reasonable issue. I strenuously disagree with Elizabeth that purely natural processes can mimic design as outlined by ID theorists and disagree with the putative examples that she and others have put forth. However, the question of whether there are false positives is a rational area of discussion, and has been from the outset a matter of significant consideration and thought for design theorists. Indeed, this is precisely why strict parameters (such as CSI) are used to help us avoid false positives. Design theorists believe they have proposed parameters strict enough to avoid false positives. This view could be countered by providing real-live examples of false positives. If such false positives are ever found, it will mean, not that design is a failed enterprise or that everything was not designed, but rather that the parameters need to be tightened. That too could be a reasonable area of discussion, when and if live examples of false positives based on the current parameters are ever found. There are unfortunately many who are unwilling to even consider the possibility of design. For those who are willing to consider design (which I believe should include Lizzie, based on her quote above), much of the consternation about the design inference rests on a misunderstanding of the parameters. Unfortunately in the anti-ID camp the misrepresentations are legion (e.g., "if something is too 'complex' then it was designed," etc.), although I would hope Lizzie's objections are more substantive. Ironically -- given Lizzie's concern with both false positives and false negatives -- it is precisely the fact that the bar is set so high in order to avoid false positives (500-1000 bits, for example, as often discussed here), that we end up having lots of false negatives. ID purposely allows for lots of (potential) false negatives in order to gain certainty of avoiding false positives. I hope she will at least update her viewpoint to eliminate the (red herring) concern of false negatives and focus attention solely on the (legitimate, though I would argue unsubstantiated) concern with false positives.Eric Anderson
April 6, 2013
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Another interesting exchange at TSZ: Mike Elzinga: "How can we get you to demonstrate that you know anything?" Mung: "How can we get you to demonstrate that you aren’t just random noise?"Mung
April 6, 2013
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There is a God in heaven. Patrick aka MathGrrl The MathGrrl ConfessionMung
April 6, 2013
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Elizabeth claims she's not skeptical of ID:
Honestly, it’s not that I’m “skeptical” of ID – I have just yet to read a pro-ID article, even by the academics in the field, that doesn’t make rookie errors about evolutionary science. Oh, except for Todd Wood, and he relies on faith, not science, for his belief.
Mung
April 6, 2013
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Elizabeth: But can I suggest that the learning will go better if you make the working assumption that the person you are willing to learn from is not a moron?
Is that what it means to be a “skeptic”?Mung
April 6, 2013
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cubist sez:
The way real scientists detect design involves forming a hypothesis of how the putatively-designed whatzit was manufactured, and then testing that hypothesis.
LoL! So if we can't figure out how it was manufactured then it wasn't designed? If all of our hypotheses fail, it wasn't designed? That's just stupid bassackwards thinking. First we determine design and THEN we examine it and all relevant evidence to try to figure out the "how". These people are some of the dumbest on the planet. And Mung, good luck with Little Richie. All he wants to be is a thorn in your side, foot, wherever it bothers you.Joe
April 6, 2013
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TSZ posters kill me:
Rational people shouldn’t let themselves be persuaded if they’ve only heard one side of a question.
Why not? Or are you already persuaded, having heard only one side of the argument?Mung
April 6, 2013
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Elizabeth Liddle:
We can argue about the reasonableness of my priors, but it’s clear that a design inference is perfectly possible and can be perfectly valid.
As science? So you're willing to go beyond Todd Wood's version of faith-based ID?Mung
April 6, 2013
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TSZ poster admits design is valid and scientific:
Real scientists can and do detect design.
here my responseMung
April 6, 2013
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Elizabeth, as usual, is hard to pin down. Now she claims to be a design believer. As long as natural selection is capable of mimicking design.Mung
April 6, 2013
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Joe: I have begun a markup of the JoeF article you linked, here. KFkairosfocus
April 6, 2013
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Earth to petrushka, I have destroyed Felsenstein's "arguments", just by showing that he doesn't know what he is talking about. Just go to my blog and search on Joe Felsemstein and start reading. I would love to get him (Joe F) on the stand in a court of lawJoe
April 6, 2013
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Joe@287: I have added a f/n to my recent ID Founds no 17 post on the positive case for the design inference on FSCO/I, here. I trust this provides relevant points for a more balanced response to JoeF. KFkairosfocus
April 6, 2013
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Eric, That is why I cannot stomach their diatribe any more. If being full of it = scientific evidence, then they would have tons of scientific evidence. Unfortunately...Joe
April 6, 2013
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Joe, Yeah, I understand the viewpoint: Getting a basic self-replicating prebiotic polymer should be pretty straight forward under early Earth conditions, and then Darwin's magical process can take over and generate any quantity of functional specified information to build all of biology around us. It's all so simple, see. This kind of lazy thinking is painful to watch. It doesn't even pass the laugh test . . . Perhaps the saddest part is that some of these folks like to imagine themselves as "skeptics." Sure. If being skeptical means setting aside all powers of reason and accepting fantastical and unproven stories on blind faith alone.Eric Anderson
April 5, 2013
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Eric- In Lizzie's mind all Jack has to do is get some self-replicating molecule capable of variations that can be advantageous/ cause differential reproduction. A cell simply emerges after some number of easily reached steps. You just don't understand emergence, well because nobody does. :cool: I mean look at what Jack did- created two nucleotides via an indirect path- the nucleotides, esp. the sugar, EMERGED from the stew! Why do you dismiss that out-of-hand (I know we don't but you know who sez we do)? You have the sun inputting energy. Just add water and watch emergence emerge...Joe
April 5, 2013
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Kairosfocus- Yes, it is in response to Dembski taking Joe to task. Felsenstein is totally clueless wrt CSI and what ID says and argues against. And it shows. Unfortunately he has many people convinced- well he is singing to the choir. His "arguments" would be destroyed if he ever posted them on a pro-ID forum.Joe
April 5, 2013
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"Ah, yes. The promissory note of evolutionary theory. Which essentially amounts to: Just wait until we find some evidence — then you’ll see!"
This is also known as the origin of evidence problem, or OOE. Just wait until Szostak engineers a self-replicator by intelligent design, then we'll see the power of unguided processes. :P By the way, wasn't Szostak "halfway there" a while back? He must be further along now, perhaps two-thirds or three-quarters.Chance Ratcliff
April 5, 2013
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"Just wait until Szostak solves the self-replication problem!" Ah, yes. The promissory note of evolutionary theory. Which essentially amounts to: Just wait until we find some evidence -- then you'll see! Szostak is no doubt a brilliant and capable researcher, but he is nowhere near solving the 'self-replication problem.' Certainly not at the level of a simple single-celled organism. And not even at the level of a biologically-realistic self-replicating molecular structure. Building a self-sustaining, self-replicating, single-celled organism is a tremendous undertaking. Those who actually think through what is required can catch a glimpse of the enormity of the undertaking. In contrast, there are many cheerleaders for materialism who simply gloss over all the difficulties and exercise blind faith in the powers of matter and energy to organize themselves into a self-replicating organism. My maxim, which is highly applicable to so many aspects of the evolution debate, holds particularly true with respect to OOL: The perception of evolution’s explanatory power is inversely proportional to the specificity of the discussion.Eric Anderson
April 5, 2013
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Joe: Is that because of his reply to JoeF's attempt to discredit Meyer's new book before it is released? Because there is a coherent meaning to a narrow, separately definable zone T in a space of possibilities W, where W is so large that solar system or observed cosmos scale resources cannot reasonably sample anything beyond an effective zero, so that it is maximally unlikely to hit on members of T? Because he has pointed out the implications of searching for ever higher order searches in ever growing spaces of possibilities, or that intelligent injection of active info turns an intractable search into a tractable one -- the warmer/colder effect? Maybe, they will find this on conservation of info a helpful 101? KFkairosfocus
April 5, 2013
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Wm. Dembski has the septic zone all in a tither. I can't stomach their continued cowardly equivocations and promissory notes "Just wait until Szostak solves the self-replicating problem!" And Felsenstein still hasn't demonstrated a basic understanding of CSI. TSZ is just a pathetic little echo chamber.Joe
April 5, 2013
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Mung & WJM (and EL -- on right of fair comment):
M: Elizabeth admits her ignorance, but claims ignorance is the best place to begin for a true “skeptic.” W: Dr.Liddles statement that ID had failed to prove the existence of god
EL is simply wrong, as Josiah Royce showed over 100 years ago. We cannot and do not start from ignorance. We start from incorrigible self-awareness of ourselves as conscious, thinking, knowing, choosing, acting creatures in a world full of other things that often surprise us. One of those surprises is the fact of error. Which is a human consensus, enforced in our experience by those red X's in our first Math class. Then, we can see that Royce's "Error exists" has a few lurking surprises. Including that it is undeniably and necessarily true on pain of absurdity. Thence that truth exists as what accurately refers to reality, and knowledge exists even as the strong form: warranted and necessarily true belief. Thus, worldviews that dismiss such are undercut, and those that presume knowledge to be suspect or project suspicion unduly on what they are disinclined to accept, are hardly better off. In the much less exalted case of design theory, I point would-be skeptics to duties of care to evident facts, truth and fairness. Where, it would seem to me that one has a reasonable duty to make oneself acquainted with easily accessible basics before commenting adversely. I need not go on to abusive commentary or hosting same, that condemns itself. On recently reviewing what has been going on at TSZ, I am distinctly less than impressed with the hosting of gross abuse. For which the blog owner will have unavoidable material responsibility. Next, on reviewing old threads that have come up, I cannot find that EL is warranted in several of her dismissive claims. I suggest to her and her ilk, that they may wish to start here with the recent clip and comment on Meyer, and work back from there. If one cannot bring oneself to acknowledge basic, patent and well grounded facts concerning design theory and the design inference, such "ignorance" is plainly willful. We can stare on the notion of proof. That is simply not a subject for science, being an exercise in inductive reasoning. As has been explicitly on the table since Newton's Opticks, Query 31 [c. 1704], such aims for provisional empirical reliability, not certainty beyond correction. However, we may have quite high confidence in certain results of science, such as when we take powerful medicines. Next, EL knows or should know that proving or warranting the existence of God is not a topic of the scientific investigations of design theory. What is, is the empirical investigation guided study of the question as to whether intelligent designers -- which certainly exist -- may leave traces of their action that are sufficiently characteristic as to serve as signs pointing to design as most credible causal explanation. That empirical, inductive exercise is independent of debates concerning the root nature of intelligence or mind etc. What seems to be the root problem here (apart from irresponsible or outright mischievous rhetoric emanating from anti-design advocates such as the NCSE etc) is that many are uncomfortable with design inferences on warranted signs that address contexts of origins. But, for 200+ years, scientists have been researching origins on traces and characteristic signs. So, it is a little late to be having qualms about abduction in science, and it is never justifiable to play at selective hyperskepticism. Next, EL knows or should know, having been repeatedly informed and shown evidence: 1 --> FSCO/I is a well warranted, empirically reliable sign of design as credible cause. 2 --> Such was first noted as a feature of life forms in the 70's, by OOL investigators. 3 --> So, there is reason on empirical investigation to argue that life and body plans for complex life etc show strong signs of design. 4 --> Where, it has also been explicitly, repeatedly noted that design as process is not to be confused with identifying any particular designer as acting agent. 5 --> Indeed, it has been pointed out any number of times, that it is reasonable that an adequate cause would be a molecular nanotech lab that fulfills the promise evident in Venter et al. 6 --> It has also been noted again and again, with reasons such as fine tuning for life, starring water and aqueous medium C-chemistry etc etc, that the observed cosmos shows signs that point to design as credible cause. 7 --> It is this side of design theory that points to a skilled and powerful designer beyond our cosmos. An inference underwritten by the likes of Sir Fred Hoyle, notoriously a lifelong agnostic. 8 --> Obviously, again, this does not essay to be a proof of God, but it is a sign that should give us pause on imposing a priori materialism on science and its methods. 9 --> And, it should lead us to not treat theistic thinkers with contempt, censorship and expulsion. As my mom was so fond of saying, a word to the wise is enough . . . KFkairosfocus
April 5, 2013
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Elizabeth admits her ignorance, but claims ignorance is the best place to begin for a true "skeptic."Mung
April 4, 2013
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Regarding Szostak's OOL research (kf @275): For anyone interested in Szostak's work and Liddle's uncritical enthusiasm of the naturalistic storyline, the following thread is worth re-reading in some detail. (I'm thinking primarily of my exchange with Elizabeth, as I actually spent some time on her insistence looking into Szostak's work.) https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/paper-%E2%80%9Cthe-origin-and-relationship-between-the-three-domains-of-life-is-lodged-in-a-phylogenetic-impasse%E2%80%9D/ Also worth checking briefly are: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/software-engineers-off-the-cuff-requirments-list-for-simple-cell/ and https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/how-can-we-use-engineering-to-elucidate-biology/Eric Anderson
April 3, 2013
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re: Dr.Liddles statement that ID had failed to prove the existence of god: If: 1. Henry says that he can prove that some mice are white, posted that claim in plain view and stated for the record that his argument is not about all mammals, but just mice and makes his case; and 2. then Janet, after hearing the case, states that Henry failed to prove that all mammals are white; what are the options available to explain Janet's non-sequitur? As I see it: (1) Janet is lying (2) Janet is monumentally stupid (3) Janet is suffering severe confirmation bias to the point of being unable to understand/hold simple and obvious information that contradicts their desired view.William J Murray
April 3, 2013
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F/N: While I think we should be very careful with heavily freighted words such as "lie" I believe we each need to pause and think (about ourselves first -- hint to those tempted to project accusations and imagine that everyone ELSE is a hypocrite [to struggle with moral inconsistency, sadly, is a mark of being a morally struggling human] . . . ) regarding our duties of care to accuracy, truth, fairness and prudence. Accordingly, I think it useful to post here a definition of "lie" that -- unsurprisingly -- is no longer on the front page of a Wiki article on the subject:
To lie is to state something with disregard to the truth with the intention that people will accept the statement as truth . . . . even a true statement can be used to deceive. In this situation, it is the intent of being overall untruthful rather than the truthfulness of any individual statement that is considered the lie . . . . One can state part of the truth out of context, knowing that without complete information, it gives a false impression. Likewise, one can actually state accurate facts, yet deceive with them . . . . One lies by omission when omitting an important fact, deliberately leaving another person with a misconception. Lying by omission includes failures to correct pre-existing misconceptions. Also known as a continuing misrepresentation . . . . A misleading statement is one where there is no outright lie, but still retains the purpose of getting someone to believe in an untruth . . .
As I reflect on some of the points of concern I have had to raise over the past few days [cf above], these words make for sobering reading. For instance, the persistent misrepresentation of what design theory is, and what it entails or implies -- in the teeth of easily accessible more accurate summaries, is simply and inexcusably wrong. The false accusations, tainted insinuations by invidious comparisons, the strawman distortions, and so on and so forth simply are not good enough. I must therefore plead with Dr Liddle et al, to pause, think and do better. Dr Liddle, do you REALLY want to be the host of a blog that harbours willful misrepresentations, slanders, tainting by improper invidious associations and the like? Even if you actually believe these accusations are true, this does not lift the responsibility. For, the information to correct such distortions is easily accessible and the duty of care to truth and fairness demands that such be accessed and taken into account. If this sort of situation continues, what is going on no longer is merely misunderstandings and the fog of sharp disagreement. We are dealing here with that which goes to character. Please do better. Please. KFkairosfocus
April 3, 2013
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Lizzie sez:
I don’t lie, ...
Well saying that darwinian processes can produce CSI is a lie. Saying that a simple replicator capable of darwinian evolution can produce anything beyond that simple replicator, is a lie. Or maybe you are just so freaking ignorant that you don't know that you are lying when you spew the things you spew. I mean you really could believe what you say is true, although it is always very telling that you never provide any evidence to support your claims. So maybe you aren't lying. But you sure do tell some unsupported stories.Joe
April 3, 2013
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F/N: I have put up a for record on this here. KFkairosfocus
April 3, 2013
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Joe: I took some time to see what Petrushka may be hinting at (the very coyness being suggestive that there is a lot less there than meets the eye). Here is a clip from a Scientific American (Sept 2009) article courtesy Dr Cornerlius Hunter, back at the time:
There could be pools of cold water, perhaps partly covered by ice but kept liquid by hot rocks. The temperature differences would cause convection currents, so that every now and then protocells in the water would be exposed to a burst of heat as they passed near the hot rocks, but they would almost instantly cool down again as the heated water mixed with the bulk of the cold water. The sudden heating would cause a double helix to separate into single strands. Once back in the cool region, new double strands--copies of the original one--could form as the single strands acted as templates. As soon as the environment nudged protocells to start reproducing, evolution kicked in. In particular, at some point some of the RNA sequences mutated, becoming ribozymes that sped up the copying of RNA--thus adding a competitive advantage. Eventually ribozymes began to copy RNA without external help. It is relatively easy to imagine how RNA-based protocells may have then evolved. Metabolism could have arisen gradually, as new ribozymes enabled cells to synthesize nutrients internally from simpler and more abundant starting materials. Next, the organism might have added protein making to their bag of chemical tricks. With their astonishing versatility, proteins would have then taken over RNA's role in assisting genetic copying and metabolism. Later, the organisms would have "learned" to make DNA, gaining the advantage of possessing a more robust carrier of genetic information. At that point, the RNA world became the DNA world, and life as we know it began. [Connectives and logical, non-sequitur leaps highlighted]
Dr Szostak is a Nobel Prize holder. We can expect that he would know what is known, and what is not. And, the above makes it clear that what is going on here is a tissue of empirically ungrounded suppositions -- may, could, etc -- joined to leaps of imagination with little or no empirical warrant, and often with no proper logical connexion. Moreover, the pivotal issue of the formation of FSCO/I (especially the information in key macromolecules) is simply ducked. Then, at the end, the rabbit is pulled out of the hat, hey presto, as though it were all ever so inevitable. The sole discernible piece of actual empirically warranted context is the PCR chain reaction, where typically, heat in bursts is used to feed the cycle of DNA replication by breaking apart DNA double-coils for the next stage of replication. But of course, how one gets the un- interfered- with reagents in sufficiently pure and single-handed form is ducked, much less the role of the polymerase in the PCR reaction cycle. Which, let us note is NAMED after the enzyme: POLYMERASE chain reaction. As in, chickens and eggs again. In short, yet another poorly grounded just-so story designed to strengthen the faith of the Darwin Faithful. No wonder, Hunter's acid reply was: "What a pathetic and embarrassing example of evolution's influence on science. While great material for a story book, it is astonishing that a scientist would pen such a passage. Religion drives science, and it matters." Ironically, at the same time, when the very same same Darwin Faithful put on their favourite Anti-ID hats, they are ever so skeptical [selectively hyperskeptical] in the teeth of billions of un-exceptioned cases in point on the existence and routinely observed cause of FSCO/I, the associated needle in haystack or infinite monkeys analysis of solar system and observed cosmos-scale capability to sample such a space. The sharp contrast is utterly revealing, and underscores Dr Hunter's point that evolutionary materialism is an ideology driven by a priori assertions in the teeth of serious challenges, and operating as a functional equivalent to a religious faith, complete with dogmas. So much for the vaunted "skepticism." Indeed, it is worth highlighting why skepticism -- as opposed to critical awareness -- is no intellectual virtue, never mind how it likes to congratulate itself on its position of alleged "free thought" and its dismissal of "dogmas" -- imagined to be the sole property of theistic religions. A bit of dictionary work will help, as too often Lewontin a priori Evolutionary Materialism Darwin Faithful tend to fail the basic vocab test (as can be seen in the TSZ discussion in attempted rteply to Mr Arrington's post):
skep·ti·cism also scep·ti·cism (skpt-szm) n. 1. A doubting or questioning attitude or state of mind; dubiety. See Synonyms at uncertainty. 2. Philosophy a. The ancient school of Pyrrho of Elis that stressed the uncertainty of our beliefs in order to oppose dogmatism. b. The doctrine that absolute knowledge is impossible, either in a particular domain or in general. c. A methodology based on an assumption of doubt with the aim of acquiring approximate or relative certainty. 3. Doubt or disbelief of religious tenets. [AmHD] dog·ma (dôgm, dg-) n. pl. dog·mas or dog·ma·ta (-m-t) 1. A doctrine or a corpus of doctrines relating to matters such as morality and faith, set forth in an authoritative manner by a church. 2. An authoritative principle, belief, or statement of ideas or opinion, especially one considered to be absolutely true. See Synonyms at doctrine. 3. A principle or belief or a group of them: "The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present" (Abraham Lincoln). [AmHD] The Freethinker The Freethinker may be: The Freethinker (journal), the oldest surviving secularist publication in the world, first published in 1881 . . . [TFD, disambiguation] free ?thought? n. thought unrestrained by deference to authority, tradition, or established belief, esp. in matters of religion. [1705–15][Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary]
It should be obvious that to be aware that we may err is important as a first step in serious thought, one that is crossed in one's first math class, when one gets X's. But, a more mature thinker is one who is able to follow the chain of analysis put forth by Josiah Royce, Elton Trueblood et al: that "error exists" -- let us call the proposition, E -- is so is notorious by experience. Where also E is undeniably true on pain of self referential absurdity and confusion of meaning as a consequence. For, E and NOT_E are mutually exclusive and exhaustive. At least one of them MUST be, an error. (The usual attempted escape from this is telling, attempted denial of the first principles of right reason starting with identity that can separate the world into {A | NOT_A}; which is a signal failure.) So what? All you have shown is that skeptics are right to be concerned about the reality of error and so the proper place to begin free thinking from is doubt! Not at all, look closer. E has been shown to be not only notoriously true by experience, but it is by logic rooted in undeniable first principles, undeniably true. That is, E accurately corresponds to what is, and is warranted to do so to certainty, indeed not only objective but absolute. It is undeniably true. That is, it is a case of knowledge, first acquired empirically, then confirmed to be undeniable. So, truth exists, experience can at least sometimes correctly guide us to truth, and by logic rooted in common sense first principles, we can see that we can warrant truth as so, thus arriving at certain knowledge, here, absolute certainty. Where also, the experience based knowledge and testimony of our world has long since properly led us to moral certainty that E is so. In short, the stance of doubt as the first beginnings to knowledge has been undermined, and the attitude of dismissiveness to bodies of thought that are presented by authorities is also undermined. Further, sometimes, experts and authorities are in fact just that and are summarising and presenting the truth that happens to be well warranted, starting with parents and elementary teachers. And, arguably, pastors or Sunday school teachers too, could at least possibly be telling us the truth. [Kindly cf. especially the table of comparison on the minimal facts, and how these were arrived at. Notice, in context, the battle for truth that now rages in our civilisation.) So, it is at least to be considered that, per the remarks of Simon Greenleaf, a founder of the Harvard School of Law and of the modern Anglophone theory of evidence:
. . . The error of the skeptic consists in pretending or supposing that there is a difference in the nature of things to be proved; and in demanding demonstrative evidence concerning things which are not susceptible of any other than moral evidence alone, and of which the utmost that can be said is, that there is no reasonable doubt about their truth . . . . [27] . . . . In proceeding to weigh the evidence of any proposition of fact, the previous question to be determined is, when may it be said to be proved? The answer to this question is furnished by another rule of municipal law, which may be thus stated:
A proposition of fact is proved, when its truth is established by competent and satisfactory evidence.
By competent evidence, is meant such as the nature of the thing to be proved requires; and by satisfactory evidence, is meant that amount of proof, which ordinarily satisfies an unprejudiced mind, beyond any reasonable doubt. . . . . If, therefore, the subject is a problem in mathematics, its truth is to be shown by the certainty of demonstrative evidence. But if it is a question of fact in human affairs, nothing more than moral evidence can be required, for this is the best evidence which, from the nature of the case, is attainable. [Testimony of the Evangelists, Sections 26, 27, emphases added.]
In that light (and given that absolute skepticism about the possibility of knowledge is an implicit and self-refuting knowledge claim . . . ), too often the vaunted skepticism of today is in fact SELECTIVE HYPERSKEPTICISM; which is self-refuting by applying a double standard of warrant. That is, what one is inclined to believe -- cf. Szostak above and the apparently welcoming response to it in Darwinist Faithful circles -- is given a free pass, but what one is disinclined to believe given one's underlying secularist dogmas is derided as credulous and greeted with Sagan's echo of Cliffordian eviderntialism:
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary [ADEQUATE] evidence."
The strike and correct shows the problem. Given, also, that dogmas are not the preserve of adherents of theistic religious systems, it ought to be evident that ANY worldview has core first plausibles that adherents hew to. The issue is, then, not "free" vs "chained [dogmatic]" thought, but whether one's first plausibles have been given due critical reflection per the canons of comparative difficulties assessment relative to factual adequacy, coherence and explanatory elegance and power: simple, not simplistic, cogently explanatory. Do I need to highlight here that "free thinker" ironically has too often been the self-congratulatory appellation of dogmatic and closed minded adherents of radical secularist worldviews and ideologies? That, such are too often unaware that they are as chained by their own unquestioned a prioris as any naive religious believer they would mock and deride? In short, it is time that the denizens and sponsors of TSZ pause and ask themselves whether they have seriously thought about whether they could be mistaken. And then, maybe they could join us here to reflect on issues concerning worldview foundations and grounding, bearing in mind the concerns regarding the worldview of evolutionary materialism (whether dressed in the philosopher's cloak or the scientist's lab coat makes but little difference) here on in context. It is particularly worth the pause to observe the remarks of noted evolutionary theorist J B S Haldane:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” ["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209.]
KFkairosfocus
April 3, 2013
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In re: Timaeus @ 208, That seems basically right to me, and I appreciate the need for qualification. One of the things that bothers me about how these debates are framed -- especially on blogs -- is that the need for affirmation of communal identity overpowers intellectual considerations. (I've come to think that, at some primal level, we humans really enjoy being angry at each other.) I don't think it's any coincidence that the terms of the debate have been set by people who have little, if any, philosophical acumen. (Paul Churchland, for whom I have a great deal of respect and with whom I somewhat agree, once wrote that "Dawkins is an epistemological naif" -- couldn't have said it better myself!)Kantian Naturalist
April 2, 2013
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