Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

The “Skeptical” Zone, Where You Can Be Skeptical of Anything (Except Currently Fashionable Intellectual Dogmas)

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For those of you who do not know, some months ago Elizabeth Liddle started the website known as The Skeptical Zone (TSZ). The site has a sort of symbiotic relationship with UD, because many, if not most, of the posts there key off our posts here.

Not only does TSZ have a name that invokes a skeptical turn of mind, it also has a motto apparently intended to bolster that attitude: “I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible that you may be mistaken.” The motto is taken from Oliver Cromwell’s August 5, 1650 letter to the synod of the Church of Scotland urging them to break their alliance with royalist forces.

Now with a name and a motto like that, one might think the site is home to iconoclastic non-conformists bent on disrupting the status quo. But you would be wrong. I just finished pursuing the articles that have been posted at TSZ during the last six months. Among the regular posters there I found not a single article that even mildly criticized (far less expressed skepticism toward) a single dogma one would expect to be held by the denizens of the faculty lounge at a typical university.

Atheism. It’s true

Neo-Darwinian Synthesis. Fact beyond the slightest doubt

Philosophical materialism. Check

It seems that the regular posters at TSZ are skeptical of everything but the received wisdom, accepted conventions and cherished dogmas of the academic left. Perhaps they should change the name of the site ever so slightly to The “Skeptical” Zone. The irony quotes would make the name more honest.

Here’s a clue to the TSZ posters: If you want to be a real skeptic, perhaps you should challenge the beliefs of the secular elite that dominate our universities instead of marching in lockstep with them. The true skeptics of the early twenty-first century are those willing to take on the dogmas of the academic elite, people like Bill Dembski, Michael Behe, and Jonathan Wells.

The posters at The Skeptical Zone are skeptical alright.  They are skeptical of skeptics.  As for their motto, they certainly think it is possible that someone might be mistaken – anyone who disagrees with them or questions their deeply held beliefs.

Why don’t the posters at TSZ see the glaringly obvious irony of their enterprise? I was thinking about this question when I ran across a post by Matt Emerson over at FT. Emerson writes about how the dogmas of secularism act as a type of “revelation” that boxes in thinking in a way secularist thinkers probably don’t even perceive at a conscious level.  Emerson writes:

Even among those who declare no connection with God, reason operates under what amounts to a kind of revelation. These skeptics don’t conceive of revelation in the same way that I do as a Catholic, but for many, the ultimate source of an epistemological “guide” does not matter: Certain perceived facts, or certain foundational positions, hold the same thetical value for them as the Bible does for many Christians. For these men and women, as for the medievals, it might be technically possible to reason “outside” these givens, but why would they? To ask them to reason as if those givens were not true would be akin to asking a Christian to reason apart from the Incarnation. It just doesn’t make any sense.

Comments
Lizzie:
The real problem is that the tests for ID in biology (as proposed so far) don’t distinguish between the output of intentional agents and the output of Darwinian algorithms.
Darwinian algorithm is an oxymoron. Such a thing doesn't exist in the real world. And AVIDA proves that your position has nothing. Darwinian processes only break and deteriorate. That is what the evidence says.Joe
March 27, 2013
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other mouth:
Show me the evidence for ID and I’ll believe ID.
We have and you don't. OTOH YOU can't show anyone any evidence for your position. YOU can't even produce a testable hypothsis. YOU are scientifically illiterate.Joe
March 27, 2013
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'Most atheists in general claim that they love science but when scientific evidence goes against their worldview positions they suddenly become allergic to science.' Here is something a little special for them, wallstreeter: http://www.loamagazine.org/nr/the_main_topic/eucharistic_miracle_in_buenos.html Isn't Lizzie a dirt-worhipper? Why would anybody want to lend credibility to her blog? You guys are nuts in that regard. Let them come here. (Or not as the case may be... Lizzie).Axel
March 27, 2013
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other mouth:
Yet the IDers have no problem issuing proclamations like “it’s impossible for DNA to exist without Intelligent Design” and nobody bats an eyelid.
That is because that is what the evidence says. Antony Flew accepted Intelligent Design because of DNA. Go figure.Joe
March 27, 2013
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Allan Miller sums it up nicely:
Evolution simply stumbles around, either taking up residence on a point, or hitting nearby ones, in the space of viable configurations.
As I said, you cannot construct a testable hypothesis based on that. Thanks to Allan Miller for admitting evolutionism is not scientific.Joe
March 27, 2013
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Aaln is just another punk- why does anyone bother trying to explain anything to him? Treat him with the same contempt as he treats us. The chump is a nobody in the world of science. And he is a nobody in the real world.Joe
March 27, 2013
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Thats right Alan, pretending you own the words, and don't like it when people misuse them is a powerful defense. It's a "scientific" defense Alan! Everyone knows that. And don't worry about those silly dictionaries either. Just remember Alan, Karl Popper said its better to argue over what we call facts than it is to argue over what those facts are. All real skeptics know that. Yup - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - data: individual facts, statistics, or items of information – dictionary.reference.com factual information, especially information organized for analysis or used to reason or make decisions – American Heritage Dictionary - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - * Encyclopedia - Data Data is the plural of datum. A datum is a statement accepted at face value (a "given"). A large class of practically important statements are measurements or observations of a variable. Such statements may comprise numbers, words, or images. Data - Etymology. The word data is the plural of Latin datum, neuter past participle of dare, "to give", hence "something given". The past participle of "to give" has been used for millennia, in the sense of a statement accepted.Upright BiPed
March 27, 2013
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Kantian Naturalist, in conjunction with the incompleteness theorem which shows that any given mathematical equation is dependent on a 'highest infinity' in order to derive their truthfulness, it is interesting to point out that our two best mathematical descriptions of reality,,
“On the other hand, I disagree that Darwin’s theory is as `solid as any explanation in science.; Disagree? I regard the claim as preposterous. Quantum electrodynamics is accurate to thirteen or so decimal places; so, too, general relativity. A leaf trembling in the wrong way would suffice to shatter either theory. What can Darwinian theory offer in comparison?” (Berlinski, D., “A Scientific Scandal?: David Berlinski & Critics,” Commentary, July 8, 2003)
,, are 'higher dimensional' in their construct. i.e. 'higher dimensional' mathematics had to be developed before Einstein could elucidate General Relativity, or even before Quantum Mechanics could be elucidated;
The Mathematics Of Higher Dimensionality – Gauss and Riemann – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/6199520/ The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences - Eugene Wigner - 1960 Excerpt: We now have, in physics, two theories of great power and interest: the theory of quantum phenomena and the theory of relativity.,,, The two theories operate with different mathematical concepts: the four dimensional Riemann space and the infinite dimensional Hilbert space, http://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/MathDrama/reading/Wigner.html
And indeed Kantian Naturalist, looking at the universe through these 'higher dimensional lenses' is very strange:
The Galileo Affair and the true "Center of the Universe" Excerpt: I find it extremely interesting, and strange, that quantum mechanics tells us that instantaneous quantum wave collapse to its 'uncertain' 3D state is centered on each individual conscious observer in the universe, whereas, 4D space-time cosmology (General Relativity) tells us each 3D point in the universe is central to the expansion of the universe. These findings of modern science are pretty much exactly what we would expect to see if this universe were indeed created, and sustained, from a higher dimension by a omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal Being who knows everything that is happening everywhere in the universe at the same time. These findings certainly seem to go to the very heart of the age old question asked of many parents by their children, “How can God hear everybody’s prayers at the same time?”,,, i.e. Why should the expansion of the universe, or the quantum wave collapse of the entire universe, even care that you or I, or anyone else, should exist? Only Theism, Christian Theism in particular, offers a rational explanation as to why you or I, or anyone else, should have such undeserved significance in such a vast universe. [15] Psalm 33:13-15 The LORD looks from heaven; He sees all the sons of men. From the place of His dwelling He looks on all the inhabitants of the earth; He fashions their hearts individually; He considers all their works. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BHAcvrc913SgnPcDohwkPnN4kMJ9EDX-JJSkjc4AXmA/edit
It is interesting to note that higher dimensions are invisible to our physical 3-Dimensional(3D) sight. The reason why ‘higher dimensions’ are invisible to our 3D vision is best illustrated by ‘Flatland’:
Dr. Quantum in Flatland - 3D in a 2D world – video http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/9395/Dr_Quantum_Flatland_Explanation_3D_in_a_2D_world/
Perhaps some may think that we have no scientific evidence to support the view that higher ‘invisible’ dimensions are actually above this 3 Dimensional world, but a person would be wrong in that presumption. Higher invisible dimensions are corroborated by Special Relativity when considering the optical effects for traveling at the speed of light. Please note the optical effect, noted at the 3:22 minute mark of the following video, when the 3-Dimensional world ‘folds and collapses’ into a tunnel shape around the direction of travel as a ‘hypothetical’ observer moves towards the ‘higher dimension’ of the speed of light:
Approaching The Speed Of Light – Optical Effects – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5733303/
The preceding video was made by two Australian University physics professors. As well, as with the scientifically verified tunnel for special relativity to a higher dimension, we also have scientific confirmation of extreme ‘tunnel curvature’, within space-time, to a eternal ‘event horizon’ at black holes;
Space-Time of a Black hole http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0VOn9r4dq8
Moreover time, as we understand it temporally, would come to a complete stop at the speed of light. To grasp the whole 'time coming to a complete stop at the speed of light' concept a little more easily, imagine moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light. Would not the hands on the clock stay stationary as you moved away from the face of the clock at the speed of light? Moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light happens to be the same 'thought experiment' that gave Einstein his breakthrough insight into e=mc2.
Albert Einstein - Special Relativity - Insight Into Eternity - 'thought experiment' video http://www.metacafe.com/w/6545941/
And although there are many lines of evidence confirming the time dilation of special and general relativity, this following confirmation of time dilation is my favorite since they have actually caught time dilation on film (of note: light travels approx. 1 foot in a nanosecond (billionth of a second) whilst the camera used in the experiment takes a trillion pictures a second):
Amazing --- light filmed at 1,000,000,000,000 Frames/Second! - video (so fast that at 9:00 Minute mark of video the time dilation effect of relativity is actually caught on film) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoHeWgLvlXI
Well one might rightfully ask, "what does all this higher dimensional stuff have to do with me personally?". Well, it turns out that higher dimensionality is 'personal' to us because higher dimensionality, besides Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity, is also unexpectedly found in life as well:
“Although living things occupy a three-dimensional space, their internal physiology and anatomy operate as if they were four-dimensional. Quarter-power scaling laws are perhaps as universal and as uniquely biological as the biochemical pathways of metabolism, the structure and function of the genetic code and the process of natural selection.,,, The conclusion here is inescapable, that the driving force for these invariant scaling laws cannot have been natural selection." Jerry Fodor and Massimo Piatelli-Palmarini, What Darwin Got Wrong (London: Profile Books, 2010), p. 78-79
Verse, quotes and music:
Matthew 6:33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you. I started to move toward the light. The way I moved, the physics, was completely different than it is here on Earth. It was something I had never felt before and never felt since. It was a whole different sensation of motion. I obviously wasn't walking or skipping or crawling. I was not floating. I was flowing. I was flowing toward the light. I was accelerating and I knew I was accelerating, but then again, I didn't really feel the acceleration. I just knew I was accelerating toward the light. Again, the physics was different - the physics of motion of time, space, travel. It was completely different in that tunnel, than it is here on Earth. I came out into the light and when I came out into the light, I realized that I was in heaven. Barbara Springer - Near Death Experience "Regardless, it is impossible for me to adequately describe what I saw and felt. When I try to recount my experiences now, the description feels very pale. I feel as though I'm trying to describe a three-dimensional experience while living in a two-dimensional world. The appropriate words, descriptions and concepts don't even exist in our current language. I have subsequently read the accounts of other people's near-death experiences and their portrayals of heaven and I able to see the same limitations in their descriptions and vocabulary that I see in my own." Mary C. Neal, MD - To Heaven And Back pg. 71 - Near Death Experience Evanescence - The Other Side (Lyric Video) http://www.vevo.com/watch/evanescence/the-other-side-lyric-video/USWV41200024?source=instantsearch
bornagain77
March 27, 2013
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Alan Fox:
So you didn’t assemble any data to support a hypothesis?
YOU do NOT. Your position can't even muster a yestable hypothesis.Joe
March 27, 2013
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Alan Fox:
As impressive as it might be in framing portentous questions, philosophy as a discipline has not shown much ability in coming up with any useful answers about reality.
Then why do you hitch your cart to the philosophies of materialisma nd evolutionism? They definitely have not shown any ability in coming up with anything useful wrt reality.Joe
March 27, 2013
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Alan Fox:
Precision. It’s important in science.
And your position doesn't have any precison nor any accuracy.Joe
March 27, 2013
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AF: A red herring led away to an ad hominem laced strawman again. The reality of Jupiter or earth or your bodily existence does not depend on fuzziness of borders. That is blatant. And that you seem to be willing to deny or imply denial of the reality and recognisable identity of the planet Jupiter on grounds that its atmosphere -- notice, the self referential inconsistency here [you cannot objectively observe and measure what does not exist . . . ] -- does not have a simple and hard edged border, is utterly revealing about your desperation to avoid the implications of first principles of right reason starting with just that, distinct identity. And this is a matter of common sense, glorified and extended through instrumentation such as telescopes. Inserting labels such as "apologetics" in order to polarise the discussion (at least in your mind), with all due respect, simply reveals your hostility and lack of common good sense. It is time for you to look at what you have revealed about yourself in recent days and think again. KFkairosfocus
March 27, 2013
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F/N: Observe, I have discussed necessary causal factors, not sufficient clusters. For a contingent event E to happen, there must be a sufficient cluster of causal factors, even if we do not know or cannot know what it is. Such a sufficient cluster will at minimum include all the necessary factors. My thoughts above pivot on necessary factors, not on sufficient clusters.kairosfocus
March 27, 2013
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Kantian Naturalist, you state in 119:
who had it in part because they lacked a rigorous mathematical concept of infinity, which we now have. So it’s not really clear just what the objection to infinite regressions amounts to.
Actually Kantian Naturalist the 'rigorous mathematical concept of infinity, which we now have' is what led to incompleteness theorem of Godel,,,
Georg Cantor - The Mathematics Of Infinity - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4572335 entire video: BBC-Dangerous Knowledge - Part 1 https://vimeo.com/30482156 Part 2 https://vimeo.com/30641992
The incompleteness theorem, simply put, means that the truthfulness of any given mathematical equation is not within the equation itself but is dependent on a outside source to derive its truthfulness. But since mathematical equations are transcendent of any space-time matter-energy constraints, i.e. 2+2=4 is true no matter where or when you are in the universe, then the 'highest infinity'(Cantor) which gives the equations their truthfulness must also be completely transcendent of any space-time matter-energy constraints. Yet if you appeal to 'pure randomness' (i.e. chaos), instead of God as your 'highest infinity', so as to try to explain the truthfulness of any given mathematical equation, you, as Dr. Gordon has so eloquently pointed out, wind up in epistemological failure,,
BRUCE GORDON: Hawking’s irrational arguments – October 2010 Excerpt: Rather, the transcendent reality on which our universe depends must be something that can exhibit agency – a mind that can choose among the infinite variety of mathematical descriptions and bring into existence a reality that corresponds to a consistent subset of them. This is what “breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe.” Anything else invokes random miracles as an explanatory principle and spells the end of scientific rationality.,,, ,,the evidence for string theory and its extension, M-theory, is nonexistent; and the idea that conjoining them demonstrates that we live in a multiverse of bubble universes with different laws and constants is a mathematical fantasy. What is worse, multiplying without limit the opportunities for any event to happen in the context of a multiverse - where it is alleged that anything can spontaneously jump into existence without cause - produces a situation in which no absurdity is beyond the pale. For instance, we find multiverse cosmologists debating the "Boltzmann Brain" problem: In the most "reasonable" models for a multiverse, it is immeasurably more likely that our consciousness is associated with a brain that has spontaneously fluctuated into existence in the quantum vacuum than it is that we have parents and exist in an orderly universe with a 13.7 billion-year history. This is absurd. The multiverse hypothesis is therefore falsified because it renders false what we know to be true about ourselves. Clearly, embracing the multiverse idea entails a nihilistic irrationality that destroys the very possibility of science.,, Universes do not “spontaneously create” on the basis of abstract mathematical descriptions, nor does the fantasy of a limitless multiverse trump the explanatory power of transcendent intelligent design. What Mr. Hawking’s contrary assertions show is that mathematical savants can sometimes be metaphysical simpletons. Caveat emptor. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/oct/1/hawking-irrational-arguments/ The Absurdity of Inflation, String Theory and The Multiverse - Dr. Bruce Gordon - video http://vimeo.com/34468027 Here is the last power-point slide of the preceding video: The End Of Materialism? * In the multiverse, anything can happen for no reason at all. * In other words, the materialist is forced to believe in random miracles as a explanatory principle. * In a Theistic universe, nothing happens without a reason. Miracles are therefore intelligently directed deviations from divinely maintained regularities, and are thus expressions of rational purpose. * Scientific materialism is (therefore) epistemically self defeating: it makes scientific rationality impossible.
But Kantian Naturalist, due to advances in modern science, we can get to this 'highest infinity, which both Cantor and Godel held to be God, from another direction besides philosophy and logic. We can arrive at this 'highest infinity' through empirical evidence. We now know through empirical evidence that traveling at the speed of light in this universe would be, because of time dilation, instantaneous travel for the person hypothetically travelling at the speed of light. This is because time does not pass for them at the speed of light, yet, and this is a very big ‘yet’ to take note of, this ‘timeless’ travel is still not instantaneous and transcendent to our temporal framework of time as quantum teleportation and entanglement are, i.e. Speed of light travel, to our temporal frame of reference of time, is still not completely transcendent of our temporal time framework since light appears to take time to travel from our temporal perspective. Yet, in quantum teleportation of information, the ‘time not passing’, i.e. ‘eternal’, framework is not only achieved in the speed of light framework/dimension, but is also ‘instantaneously’ achieved in our lower temporal framework. That is to say, the instantaneous teleportation/travel of quantum information is instantaneous to both the temporal and speed of light frameworks, not just the speed of light framework. Information teleportation/travel is not limited by time, nor space, in any way, shape or form, in any frame of reference, as light is seemingly limited to us in this temporal framework. Thus ‘pure transcendent information’, revealed in quantum experiments is shown to be timeless (eternal) and completely transcendent of all material frameworks. Moreover, concluding from all lines of evidence we now have (many of which I have not specifically listed here); transcendent, eternal, infinite information is indeed real and the framework in which ‘It’ resides is the primary reality (highest dimension) that can exist. As well, a photon, in its quantum wave state, is found to be mathematically defined as a ‘infinite-dimensional’ state, which ‘requires an infinite amount of information’ to describe it properly, can be encoded with information in its 'infinite dimensional' state, and this ‘infinite dimensional’ photon is found to collapse, instantaneously, and thus 'non-locally', to just a '1 or 0' state, out of a infinite number of possibilities that the photon could have collapsed to instead! Moreover, consciousness is found to precede the collapse of the wavefunction of the photon to its particle state. Now my question to materialistic atheists is this, "Exactly what ’conscious cause’ has been postulated throughout history as to be completely independent of any space-time constraints (eternal), as well as possessing infinite knowledge, so as to be the ‘sufficient cause’ to explain what we see in the quantum wave collapse of a photon??? Notes:
Quantum Computing – Stanford Encyclopedia Excerpt: a single qubit can store an infinite amount of information, yet when measured (and thus collapsing the Quantum Wave state) it yields only the classical result (0 or 1),,, http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-quantcomp/#2.1 Direct measurement of the quantum wavefunction - June 2011 Excerpt: The wavefunction is the complex distribution used to completely describe a quantum system, and is central to quantum theory. But despite its fundamental role, it is typically introduced as an abstract element of the theory with no explicit definition.,,, Here we show that the wavefunction can be measured directly by the sequential measurement of two complementary variables of the system. The crux of our method is that the first measurement is performed in a gentle way through weak measurement so as not to invalidate the second. The result is that the real and imaginary components of the wavefunction appear directly on our measurement apparatus. We give an experimental example by directly measuring the transverse spatial wavefunction of a single photon, a task not previously realized by any method. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v474/n7350/full/nature10120.html rightfully allowing God into mathematics offers a plausible reconciliation between Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity,,, https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/the-equations-of-evolution/#comment-450638
Music and Verse:
Phillips, Craig & Dean - Great I Am - music http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSoz6L1vqm8 1 Kings 8:27 ,,,Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you; how much less this house that I have built!
bornagain77
March 27, 2013
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KN: I don't think the issue on first cause is one of deduction in logic that sees a first cause as entailed simply by the working of a causal chain. The issue pivots instead on several broader matters: 1 --> The role of necessary causal factors, which for non-confusion I usually discuss as on/off switch enabling factors, such as heat, oxidiser, fuel and chain reaction for a fire. This entails that if absent/off, the entity cannot begin or continue to exist. That is how we start fires and it is how firemen fight them. 2 --> We then see the significance of contingency vs necessity of being. Something that evidently has no dependence on on/off factors is such that its existence is either impossible or inevitable. Such as the truth in 2 + 3 = 5 is inevitable. A necessary being has no cause and its sufficient reason for existence lies in its necessity. It is eternal, without beginning and cannot end. (Think about a situation where 2 + 3 = 5 is false.) 3 --> In that context, we see that an endless chain of cause-effect bonds, implies an infinite succession. Not, delivered all at once as a set, not in-principle, but sequentially. Which is enormously problematic. 4 --> To see just one reason, consider the task of counting up in succession step by finite set -- we are talking a chain of discrete, finite duration beings here, not infinitesimals that we can play limit games with -- to exhaust the natural numbers, 0, 1,2,3, . . . Cannot be traversed in succession as there is no possibility of going infinity minus one, infinity. 5 --> Reverse the sign, and assign a causal succession down to 0, the present: . . . -3, -2, -1, 0. You cannot traverse the succession from "minus infinity" in discrete finite steps of being and causing. In simple terms, you or I do not have an infinite succession of ancestors. The same holds for supposed prior stages of the observed cosmos or some underlying multiverse that had to carry out discrete finite processes. 6 --> Our cosmos does not have an infinite succession of ancestral material cosmi, and the principle of increasing entropy would carry through such a succession, that is energy would have long since dispersed by processes related to diffusion from high quality concentrations, creating such a degradation by dispersal that heat death would have long since obtained. (BTW, this is what also sets an upper limit for the lifespan of our observed comsos, ~ 10^25 s, about 50 mn times the duration on the conventional timeline from the big bang at 13.7 BYA.) 7 --> So, any notion of an infinite succession of causally related, finite duration beings fails the scientific test. Where, the second law of thermodynamics is a consequence of microparticle interactions, the existence of a space of possible configurations and momentum distributions, leading to an overwhelming trend to move to clusters of states in which something like energy is increasingly dispersed with time. Ultimately, the stars run down and the white dwarfs cool off. No energy sources to run solar systems and host cell based life. 8 --> Therefore, no worldview that implies an infinite succession of causes is credible, coming out the starting gate. And of course the evidence we have strongly implies that our observed cosmos -- the ONLY such observation -- had A DEFINITE BEGINNING AT A FINITELY REMOTE TIME. The cosmos is contingent. 9 --> All of this points to contingency dependent on necessity of being. That is, there credibly is a causal root of the observed contingent world, that is a necessary being. 10 --> Where, that the cosmos is fine tuned for cell based life, strongly suggests that that root causal being is intelligent, skillful and powerful enough to build a cosmos, and to set it up to host cell based life. _________ KFkairosfocus
March 27, 2013
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KN: Don't trust any unusual character with WP, unless you have tested it first. The preview window often does not tell the truth. Why, I know not. KFkairosfocus
March 27, 2013
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Yeah right Alan, I’m hiding the facts on semiosis. You should be able to sell that one.
Data have morphed to facts now. So you didn't assemble any data to support a hypothesis?Alan Fox
March 27, 2013
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How does that affect or relate to the question of Jupiter’s existence or non-existence?
Precision. It's important in science. Apparently less so in apologetics. Where Jupiter begins and ends is rather pertinent to its existence, I would have thought.Alan Fox
March 27, 2013
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Alan is essentially arguing that because something that doesn’t exist doesn’t exist, then we can’t talk about it. Can’t discuss it. Can’t think about it. It is all just incoherent. So he’s not going to even talk about things that don’t exist. So there.
No. What I was trying to say is that a non-existent thing is an oxymoron. I define a thing as something real. It follows that there is no such thing as a non-existent thing. Of course, it may be that other people are using "thing" in a different sense. Which is why I have mentioned reification a few times. I'm the last person to say you can't talk about something (or even nothing! ;) ).Alan Fox
March 27, 2013
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Oh no! The HTML codes for the quantifiers looked perfect in the preview, but they're all messed up in the actual post! I'd wanted to say: "for all x, there exists a y" does not entail "there exists a y for all x".Kantian Naturalist
March 26, 2013
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Eric @ 122: it's possible that I'm being excessively charitable. To be honest, I've been off the internet for a while and I haven't back-tracked the entire discussion. But I'll let him respond for himself if he so chooses. StephenB @ 126:
Let’s discuss the world of motion and movers. (1) Every cause in a chain of cause and effect was set in motion by a prior cause. (2) A first cause set the chain of cause and effect in motion.
I'm not really happy about analyzing causation within Thomistic language, but OK -- we'll try it this way and see how it goes. I think that (1) is acceptable, and that (2) is not. But, much more importantly, I don't think there's a deductively valid argument that takes (1) as a premise and (2) as a conclusion. To see why, consider this re-phrasing of the assertions:
(1') For every effect in a chain of cause and effect, there exists some cause for that effect. (2') There exists some cause for the entire chain of causes and effects.
I think that (1') and (2') are charitable interpretations of (1) and (2), but I also think that, as thus parsed, it is obvious why there cannot be a deductively valid argument that infers (2') from (1'). Put formally:
&#8704x&#8707y does not entail &#8707y&#8704x
because constructing the proof requires a step in which x entails &#8704x, and that's a fallacy. I've seen the argument all over the place in Aristotle, and I suppose it's in Aquinas too, but that doesn't make it any less of a fallacy.Kantian Naturalist
March 26, 2013
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EA; unfortunately, this has come up frequently in regards to AF in recent days. And, on a related note cf. above on the exchange over the expelled/slaughter of the dissidents phenomenon. KFkairosfocus
March 26, 2013
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F/N: Stephen, we can for argument define the boundary of Jupiter to be the point where the density of gases falls below a reasonable threshold, something like the average density of particles in the interplanetary medium at that distance from Sol. But, the point that fuzziness of borders does not remove reality of the object so defined, is significant. And BTW, Earth's atmosphere has a fuzzy border too, does that mean that Earth is not real, or that only the rocky core of a planet can be defined to be a part thereof? Similarly, a star is a ball of gases with no crisp border. Does that mean they are not real? This sort of stipulation does not seem reasonable. KFkairosfocus
March 26, 2013
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KN: Pardon, but do you consider the truth asserted in 2 + 3 = 5 to be a real "thing" (usually, termed, a proposition); of whatever nature such a reality is? If not, why not? KFkairosfocus
March 26, 2013
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Alan
The point I was making is that Jupiter does not have a defined surface, being a gas giant, so where Jupiter is and is not depends on what density one picks as a cut-off point.
What does Jupiter’s potentially fuzzy boundaries have to do with our discussion? How does that affect or relate to the question of Jupiter’s existence or non-existence?StephenB
March 26, 2013
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Re KN@118: I agree with you. I can't see why an infinite regress is any more or less objectionable than a being that has always existed. Both require an acknowledgement of infinity don't they?5for
March 26, 2013
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Kantian Naturalist: "If so, I don’t see why one couldn’t just affirm the infinite sequence of causes (universes, multiverses, multi-multiverses, multi-multi-multiverses — well, you get the idea) as a brute fact. Explanations do have to come to an end somewhere, after all." Let's discuss the world of motion and movers. Agree or disagree: Every cause in a chain of cause and effect was set in motion by a prior cause. Agree or disagree: A first cause set the chain of cause and effect in motion.StephenB
March 26, 2013
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Yeah right Alan, I'm hiding the facts on semiosis. You should be able to sell that one. ;)Upright BiPed
March 26, 2013
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Alan Fox @121: It is obvious that you are not sincerely engaging in discussion. Do you even know what semiotics is? If so, you would not ask a ridiculous question about data. The data is in any biology textbook. It is in the description of information storage, retrieval and translation processes that occur in the cell. That is the data. You may not understand it, but that is your failing, not UB's.Eric Anderson
March 26, 2013
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If the universe at one point in time did not exist and at a another point in time did exist, it follows that there was was a transitional point in time - when it did not exist and exist at the same time? More general, how does the LNC deal with change? When something changes ("moves"), it goes from potency to act with respect to an attribute. How about that transitional moment in time: the coming into existence of the attribute?Box
March 26, 2013
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