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The “Skeptical” Zone, Where You Can Be Skeptical of Anything (Except Currently Fashionable Intellectual Dogmas)

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For those of you who do not know, some months ago Elizabeth Liddle started the website known as The Skeptical Zone (TSZ). The site has a sort of symbiotic relationship with UD, because many, if not most, of the posts there key off our posts here.

Not only does TSZ have a name that invokes a skeptical turn of mind, it also has a motto apparently intended to bolster that attitude: “I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible that you may be mistaken.” The motto is taken from Oliver Cromwell’s August 5, 1650 letter to the synod of the Church of Scotland urging them to break their alliance with royalist forces.

Now with a name and a motto like that, one might think the site is home to iconoclastic non-conformists bent on disrupting the status quo. But you would be wrong. I just finished pursuing the articles that have been posted at TSZ during the last six months. Among the regular posters there I found not a single article that even mildly criticized (far less expressed skepticism toward) a single dogma one would expect to be held by the denizens of the faculty lounge at a typical university.

Atheism. It’s true

Neo-Darwinian Synthesis. Fact beyond the slightest doubt

Philosophical materialism. Check

It seems that the regular posters at TSZ are skeptical of everything but the received wisdom, accepted conventions and cherished dogmas of the academic left. Perhaps they should change the name of the site ever so slightly to The “Skeptical” Zone. The irony quotes would make the name more honest.

Here’s a clue to the TSZ posters: If you want to be a real skeptic, perhaps you should challenge the beliefs of the secular elite that dominate our universities instead of marching in lockstep with them. The true skeptics of the early twenty-first century are those willing to take on the dogmas of the academic elite, people like Bill Dembski, Michael Behe, and Jonathan Wells.

The posters at The Skeptical Zone are skeptical alright.  They are skeptical of skeptics.  As for their motto, they certainly think it is possible that someone might be mistaken – anyone who disagrees with them or questions their deeply held beliefs.

Why don’t the posters at TSZ see the glaringly obvious irony of their enterprise? I was thinking about this question when I ran across a post by Matt Emerson over at FT. Emerson writes about how the dogmas of secularism act as a type of “revelation” that boxes in thinking in a way secularist thinkers probably don’t even perceive at a conscious level.  Emerson writes:

Even among those who declare no connection with God, reason operates under what amounts to a kind of revelation. These skeptics don’t conceive of revelation in the same way that I do as a Catholic, but for many, the ultimate source of an epistemological “guide” does not matter: Certain perceived facts, or certain foundational positions, hold the same thetical value for them as the Bible does for many Christians. For these men and women, as for the medievals, it might be technically possible to reason “outside” these givens, but why would they? To ask them to reason as if those givens were not true would be akin to asking a Christian to reason apart from the Incarnation. It just doesn’t make any sense.

Comments
KN @113: You are missing the absurdity of Alan Fox's position and ascribing a potential depth of thought to him that doesn't exist in this case. Alan is essentially arguing that because something that doesn't exist doesn't exist, then we can't talk about it. Can't discuss it. Can't think about it. It is all just incoherent. So he's not going to even talk about things that don't exist. So there. That is the essence of his argument. And the fact that in the very act of making his argument he demonstrates that he knows precisely what is meant in common, ordinary, everyday language by something not existing just highlights the fact that he is blowing smoke and refusing to engage in the substantive question that was put to him. There is no deep philosophy or careful thought behind it.Eric Anderson
March 26, 2013
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Perhaps you should just join in the chorus with Elzinga and simply waive your hands in the air and pretend information doesn’t cause things to happen. It’s a much shorter path if you’re just going into denial anyway.
You said you had presented data. What data? I would have thought that you would be only too glad to point me to data that is evidence in support of your semiotic argument.Alan Fox
March 26, 2013
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Kairosfocus @112
In answer I note that to conceive of a coherent notion or concept or possible object is not equal to its existence, whether at a given time or in a possible world. For example unicorns of some form — a horned horse-like creature, with a horn in the forehead or thereabouts, are obviously possible beings: cf. Rhinos and Triceratops, etc.
Precisely. If a non-existent thing was an oxymoron, then any "thing" that could possibly exist (a three-headed tiger or an upright horse), does, in fact, exist.StephenB
March 26, 2013
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Alan, If you've forgotten, we can sure start again at the top. No problem: Is it possible to transfer information into a physcal effect without using an arrangement of matter to evoke a response within a system capable of creating the effect? Perhaps you should just join in the chorus with Elzinga and simply waive your hands in the air and pretend information doesn't cause things to happen. It's a much shorter path if you're just going into denial anyway.Upright BiPed
March 26, 2013
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Since previous causes cannot go back all the way to inifinity, a causeless cause (first cause, uncreated cause) is required.
I have to say, I've never been entirely clear on why it is that "previous causes cannot go back all the way to infinity". The objection, "but that's an infinite regress!" doesn't sway me too much. I harbor the suspicion that the infinite regress option begins with the ancient Greeks, who had it in part because they lacked a rigorous mathematical concept of infinity, which we now have. So it's not really clear just what the objection to infinite regressions amounts to. I mean, I can imagine someone saying, "but then you'd have to explain what it is that causes this particular infinite sequence of causes!" Is that how the objection is supposed to work? If so, I don't see why one couldn't just affirm the infinite sequence of causes (universes, multiverses, multi-multiverses, multi-multi-multiverses -- well, you get the idea) as a brute fact. Explanations do have to come to an end somewhere, after all.Kantian Naturalist
March 26, 2013
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Did you mess up on the link, upright Biped.It takes me to a comment of yours in a previous thread that says:
Alan allowed himself to be drawn into a one-step-at-a-time exposition of evidence he had previously managed to dismissed out of hand. So, he jumped ship. I think the silence after #117 demonstrates #75 rather nicely.
Where's the data?Alan Fox
March 26, 2013
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StephenB
Jupiter exists as a thing that we call a planet. Jupiter [the thing in question], once didn’t exist.
The point I was making is that Jupiter does not have a defined surface, being a gas giant, so where Jupiter is and is not depends on what density one picks as a cut-off point.Alan Fox
March 26, 2013
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#110 Here ya go. - - - - - - by the way... data: individual facts, statistics, or items of information -- dictionary.reference.com factual information, especially information organized for analysis or used to reason or make decisions -- American Heritage DictionaryUpright BiPed
March 26, 2013
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Alan
In terms of what was before the Big Bang, we have, apparently, no way of knowing.
We know that if the Big Bang produced matter, then matter didn't exist before the Big Bang.
Is Jupiter a thing?
Yes.
Where would you put the boundary between Jupiter and not-Jupiter?
Jupiter exists as a thing that we call a planet. Jupiter [the thing in question], once didn't exist.
And how do you explain the someone?
Only a person can create because only a person can decide to create or not create. Things or laws do not have that option because things or laws do not have volitional capacity.
Couldn’t have created itself you tell me so presumably had to be created by someone else. And how do you explain…? Well, you get the idea.
Since nothing can create or cause its own existence (it would have had to exist before it existed to do the creating) it must be created by some previous cause. Since previous causes cannot go back all the way to inifinity, a causeless cause (first cause, uncreated cause) is required. A causeless cause (first cause) must also be a self-existent being because it cannot receive its existence from a prior cause. If it could receive its existence from a prior cause, it would not be the first cause.StephenB
March 26, 2013
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Box @ 105: by my lights, you are among the least of offenders, compared to others here. And I also enjoy our debates. KF @ 112: Fox is just using "thing" to mean "that which actually exists". Perhaps he'd be open to "beings" or whatever to that which could exist, but doesn't (e.g. unicorns). I don't know. Personally, I think you'd be on firmer ground criticizing him for his nominalistic metaphysics than by accusing him of holding a verificationist theory of meaning. There, however, I think it's important to distinguish between necessarily true facts and necessarily existing beings. A pragmatist such as myself can accept that 2+2=4 is necessarily true without risk of committing myself to any position about the reality of mathematical objects one way or the other. To get from necessarily true facts to necessarily existing objects, we need a further argument that takes us down from language to the world -- something that ties together the notions of truth and reference as tightly as possible. (Call this the problem of "semantic descent," in parallel with Quine's "semantic ascent".)Kantian Naturalist
March 26, 2013
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SB: I am beginning to wonder if we are seeing an outdated positivism influenced idea on AF's part. The one that if something was not analytically so or is not subject to empirical test, it is meaningless. Which verification principle of course was exposed as having failed its own test of meaningfulness after years of being used to try to dismiss metaphysical issues. In answer I note that to conceive of a coherent notion or concept or possible object is not equal to its existence, whether at a given time or in a possible world. For example unicorns of some form -- a horned horse-like creature, with a horn in the forehead or thereabouts, are obviously possible beings: cf. Rhinos and Triceratops, etc. And obviously, even though unicorns do not now exist in this actual world -- they will doubtless be genetically engineered within a century as a show freak if nothing else -- such creatures are coherent and meaningful without actually existing. KFkairosfocus
March 26, 2013
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It’s an assertion that you deny ever existed.
"What assertions?" means "what assertion?" It does not mean I deny assertions exist. Now you have clarified which of Neil's statements you consider false and unsupported, you should give him the chance to respond.Alan Fox
March 26, 2013
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Upright Biped I see your 108. You don't answer my query about what you are referring to when you claim to have presented data.Alan Fox
March 26, 2013
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OK that wasn't so hard, was it, mung. I don't watch talking-head videos as a rule and much prefer the written word so I can't help you out about what Nelson said. I'll wait for the paper on "ontogenetic depth" though I understand it is somewhat overdue. I'm sure Neil will pick up on the issue, though.Alan Fox
March 26, 2013
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#96 Abject denial... followed by pointing out a typo. powerful stuffUpright BiPed
March 26, 2013
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F/N: The light of grace, by which the members of the White Rose movement spoke in the teeth of willful blindness, numbness and intimidation, with words that were paid for in blood, Christian martyrs' blood:
WR, Tract II: Since the conquest of Poland three hundred thousand Jews have been murdered in this country in the most bestial way . . . The German people slumber on in their dull, stupid sleep and encourage these fascist criminals . . . Each man wants to be exonerated of a guilt of this kind, each one continues on his way with the most placid, the calmest conscience. But he cannot be exonerated; he is guilty, guilty, guilty! WR, Tract IV: Every word that comes from Hitler's mouth is a lie. When he says peace, he means war, and when he blasphemously uses the name of the Almighty, he means the power of evil, the fallen angel, Satan. His mouth is the foul-smelling maw of Hell, and his might is at bottom accursed. True, we must conduct a struggle against the National Socialist terrorist state with rational means; but whoever today still doubts the reality, the existence of demonic powers, has failed by a wide margin to understand the metaphysical background of this war.
KF PS: The echoes of our own day of putting darkness for light, bitter for sweet, evil for good, and of pretending that all is right, save those who complain oh so unjustly are all too sadly plain. [Cf. on the march-past that I alluded to above, here. Also note here and here.]kairosfocus
March 26, 2013
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Neil Rickert:
Based on what he says can’t happen, Nelson goes on to argue that macro-evolution cannot happen.
What assertion, Alan? Need a link?Mung
March 26, 2013
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Kantian Naturalist (90) Welcome back :) I'm one of those troglodytes who doesn't make those refined conceptual distinctions. To me it is all atheism. I do enjoy our debates though. Very considerate of you not to mention my name.Box
March 26, 2013
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Alan Fox:
What assertions? Quote or link. What’s the problem?
You're "the problem," Alan. What do you want next? Another quote. Links? Neil Rickert:
But that’s putting words into the mouths of those dissenting biologists.
That's another assertion. It's another assertion that Neil never defended. It's an assertion that you deny ever existed. What's your excuse now Alan?Mung
March 26, 2013
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Alan Fox:
I have to echo Allan Miller in that thread. What assertions?
And that's why you're a troll. That's why you're NOT A SKEPTIC. That's why you have no home, either here or at TSZ. Neil Rickert:
Nelson takes some evolutionary changes that Darwinists explain by natural selection. And, relying on his dissenting opinions, he wants to argue that those changes don’t happen.
That's an assertion, Alan. Not only is it an an assertion, it's an assertion that is false. Nelson does not argue that those changes do not happen. Neil Rickert, Alan Fox and Allan Miller can't produce the evidence to establish the truth of the assertion. I expect this sort of behavior from Alan Fox. I don't expect it from Neil Rickert (or at the time, anyways, I didn't). Live and learn.Mung
March 26, 2013
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Assuming the absolute absurdity of that stance and assuming that it’s so absurd that you won’t go there (yes, it’s an ASSUMPTION), are you going to next argue that Neil, upon creating the thread, had nothing to say? That he made no assertions?
Can you not answer a straight question, ever? What assertions? Quote or link. What's the problem?Alan Fox
March 26, 2013
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Allan Miller:
Do I have to watch the video?
Way to go Alan!Mung
March 26, 2013
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Alan Fox:
I have to echo Allan Miller in that thread. What assertions?
Unbelievable. Are you going to next argue that Neil didn't really create that thread? Assuming the absolute absurdity of that stance and assuming that it's so absurd that you won't go there (yes, it's an ASSUMPTION), are you going to next argue that Neil, upon creating the thread, had nothing to say? That he made no assertions?Mung
March 26, 2013
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Upright Mr. Fox's response to you reminds me of this: Talking Evolution With Evolutionists - Cornelius Hunter - December 2011 Excerpt: "Like the cultist I spoke with, evolutionists are certain even though the facts do not support such certainty.,,," "You can present the facts, you can walk through the logic, you can review the experiments, and you can tally up the findings. It doesn’t matter. It never did matter because, ultimately, evolution never was about the science." http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2011/12/talking-evolution-with-evolutionists.htmlbornagain77
March 26, 2013
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Since it could not have created itself, someone else had to do it.
And how do you explain the someone? Couldn't have created itself you tell me so presumably had to be created by someone else. And how do you explain...? Well, you get the idea.Alan Fox
March 26, 2013
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Hi Robert The only bit of your comment I take issue with is:
I do think evolutionists, to their own surprise, smell a paradigm shift in origin convictions or even mere opinions. ID (and YEC great;y) has truly knocked big holes in the ranks of evolutionary confidence.
But time will tell if you are right.Alan Fox
March 26, 2013
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It was demonstrated to you that living things are dependent on the products of recorded information, and that in order to produce those effects, the information systems within living things have readily identifiable requirements – one of which is the existence of a materially-arbitrary relationship instantiated within the system, i.e. the system cannot operate without it.
Demonstrated to me? I think not, though I can't quite parse the rest of the sentence following "that". Are we back to semiotics? If so, then you have merely asserted stuff.
Why does this data (which you cannot refute)
What data are we talking about? Data usually indicate measurements or observations of some defined parameter. I don't recall you ever producing any data.
...so obviously threaten you, and incite your mockery?
I think you mean invite.Alan Fox
March 26, 2013
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Mr. Fox you state:
In terms of what was before the Big Bang, we have, apparently, no way of knowing.
Says who?? YOU??? Quantum Evidence for a Theistic Big Bang https://docs.google.com/document/d/1agaJIWjPWHs5vtMx5SkpaMPbantoP471k0lNBUXg0Xo/edit The 'Top Down' Theistic Structure Of The Universe and Of The Human Body https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NhA4hiQnYiyCTiqG5GelcSJjy69e1DT3OHpqlx6rACs/edit What Properties Must the Cause of the Universe Have? - William Lane Craig - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SZWInkDIVI Psalm 115:2-3 Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God? Our God is in heaven; he does whatever pleases him. Steven Curtis Chapman - God is God (Original Version) - music video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qz94NQ5HRykbornagain77
March 26, 2013
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If matter didn’t always exist,..
In terms of what was before the Big Bang, we have, apparently, no way of knowing. Is Jupiter a thing? Where would you put the boundary between Jupiter and not-Jupiter?Alan Fox
March 26, 2013
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In fact Mr. Fox the materialistic and Theistic philosophy make, and have made for centuries, several natural contradictory predictions about what evidence we will find. These contradictory predictions, and the evidence we have now found, can be tested against one another to see which philosophy is more robust.
1. Materialism predicted an eternal universe, Theism predicted a created universe. - Big Bang points to a creation event. - 2. Materialism predicted time had an infinite past, Theism predicted time had a creation. - Time was created in the Big Bang. - 3. Materialism predicted space has always existed, Theism predicted space had a creation (Psalm 89:12) - Space was created in the Big Bang. - 4. Materialism predicted that material has always existed, Theism predicted 'material' was created. - 'Material' was created in the Big Bang. 5. Materialism predicted at the base of physical reality would be a solid indestructible material particle which rigidly obeyed the rules of time and space, Theism predicted the basis of this reality was created by a infinitely powerful and transcendent Being who is not limited by time and space - Quantum mechanics reveals a wave/particle duality for the basis of our reality which blatantly defies our concepts of time and space. - 6. Materialism predicted that consciousness is a 'emergent property' of material reality and thus has no particular special position within material reality. Theism predicted consciousness preceded material reality and therefore consciousness should have a 'special' position within material reality. Quantum Mechanics reveals that consciousness has a special, even central, position within material reality. - 7. Materialism predicted the rate at which time passed was constant everywhere in the universe, Theism predicted God is eternal and is outside of time - Special Relativity has shown that time, as we understand it, is relative and comes to a complete stop at the speed of light. (Psalm 90:4 - 2 Timothy 1:9) - 8. Materialism predicted the universe did not have life in mind and life was ultimately an accident of time and chance. Theism predicted this universe was purposely created by God with man in mind - Every transcendent universal constant scientists can measure is exquisitely fine-tuned for carbon-based life to exist in this universe. - 9. Materialism predicted complex life in this universe should be fairly common. Theism predicted the earth is extremely unique in this universe - Statistical analysis of the hundreds of required parameters which enable complex life to be possible on earth gives strong indication the earth is extremely unique in this universe. - 10. Materialism predicted much of the DNA code was junk. Theism predicted we are fearfully and wonderfully made - ENCODE research into the DNA has revealed a "biological jungle deeper, denser, and more difficult to penetrate than anyone imagined.". - 11. Materialism predicted a extremely beneficial and flexible mutation rate for DNA which was ultimately responsible for all the diversity and complexity of life we see on earth. Theism predicted only God created life on earth - The mutation rate to DNA is overwhelmingly detrimental. Detrimental to such a point that it is seriously questioned whether there are any truly beneficial mutations whatsoever. (M. Behe; JC Sanford) - 12. Materialism predicted a very simple first life form which accidentally came from "a warm little pond". Theism predicted God created life - The simplest life ever found on Earth is far more complex than any machine man has made through concerted effort. (Michael Denton PhD) - 13. Materialism predicted it took a very long time for life to develop on earth. Theism predicted life to appear abruptly on earth after water appeared on earth (Genesis 1:10-11) - We find evidence for complex photo-synthetic life in the oldest sedimentary rocks ever found on earth - 14. Materialism predicted the gradual unfolding of life to be self-evident in the fossil record. Theism predicted complex and diverse life to appear abruptly in the seas in God's fifth day of creation. - The Cambrian Explosion shows a sudden appearance of many different and completely unique fossils within a very short "geologic resolution time" in the Cambrian seas. - 15. Materialism predicted there should be numerous transitional fossils found in the fossil record, Theism predicted sudden appearance and rapid diversity within different kinds found in the fossil record - Fossils are consistently characterized by sudden appearance of a group/kind in the fossil record, then rapid diversity within the group/kind, and then long term stability and even deterioration of variety within the overall group/kind, and within the specific species of the kind, over long periods of time. Of the few dozen or so fossils claimed as transitional, not one is uncontested as a true example of transition between major animal forms out of millions of collected fossils. - 16. Materialism predicted animal speciation should happen on a somewhat constant basis on earth. Theism predicted man was the last species created on earth - Man himself is the last generally accepted major fossil form to have suddenly appeared in the fossil record. -
As you can see when we remove the artificial imposition of the materialistic philosophy from the scientific method (methodological naturalism), and look carefully at the predictions of both the materialistic philosophy and the Theistic philosophy, side by side, we find that the scientific method is very good at pointing us in the direction of Theism as the true explanation. - In fact, if one really gets down into the details, it is even very good at pointing us to Christianity:
General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Entropy & the Shroud Of Turin - video http://vimeo.com/34084462
bornagain77
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