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The spliceosome: a molecular machine that defies any non-design explanation.

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OK, let’s start with a very simple fact: eukaryotic genes have introns.

IOWs, they are not continuous. They are made of exons and introns: exon – intron – exon – intron – exon and so on. Exons code for the protein. Introns don’t.

So, when the content of the gene is copied to the mRNA, introns must be cut away, and only exons are retained, in order to be translated, so that the mature mRNA can be transferred to the cytoplasm and translated by the ribosome.

This process of removing introns is called splicing.

Now, a few clarifications:

a) Introns exist in prokaryotes too, but they are rather rare. For our purposes, we will only discuss introns in eukaryotes.

b) Introns exist in many different types of genes. For our purposes, we will discuss only those in protein coding genes.

c) The origin and possible function of introns is, still, a mystery.

d) Introns are usually longer than exons. In humans, for example, they amount to approximately 35% of the whole geneome, vs about 1.5% of coding exons.

e) However, the amount and length of introns can vary a lot in different organims. An extreme example is yeast (s. cerevisiae), whose genome contains a very small amount of introns (about 250 out of about 6250 genes).

When the gene if transcribed, both exons and introns are transcribed. A 5′ UTR (Untranslated region) and 3′ UTR, is also part of the pre-mRNA.

 

Fig. 1

Pre-mRNA is the first form of RNA created through transcription in protein synthesis. The pre-mRNA lacks structures that the messenger RNA (mRNA) requires. First all introns have to be removed from the transcribed RNA through a process known as splicing. Before the RNA is ready for export, a Poly(A)tail is added to the 3’ end of the RNA and a 5’ cap is added to the 5’ end. – By Nastypatty (Own work) [CC BY-SA 4.0 (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0)], via Wikimedia Commons

So the question is: how are introns removed from pre-mRNA? IOWs, how is splicing achieved?

And there is more. As everybody probably knows, splicing is not always done in the same way. Different isoforms of the same protein can be obtained by alternative splicing, and they can have functional differences. I will not go into details about that, but here is the Wikipedia page about alternative splicing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_splicing

So, how is splicing done, and how is alternative splicing regulated?

We know much about the first question, very little about the second.

There are three ways to perform splicing:

  1. Spliceosomal splicing
  2. Self-splicing
  3. tRNA splicing

The last two modalities are rare, and can be found both in prokaryotes and eukaryotes. I will not discuss them here.

So, the subject of this OP is spliceosomal splicing, which is restricted to eukaryotes.

Moreover, I will discuss only the major spliceosome, which is responsible for the vast majority of splicing in eukaryotes. It must be said, however, that also a minor spliceosome exists, and that it acts in a minority of cases.

So, the spliceosome.

The first important point is:

It is an amazing molecular machine. Even more, it is an amazing molecular cycle, involving many different stages each of which is an amazing molecular machine.

Let’s see. Here is a figure which summarizes the main stages of the spliceosome cycle:

 

Fig. 2

 

Spliceosomal splicing cycle – By JBrain [CC BY-SA 2.0 de (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/de/deed.en)], via Wikimedia Commons

To make it simple, the spliceosome units are built upon 5 specific RNAs, called small nuclear RNAs (snRNA). These are, in humans:

U1 (164 bases), U2 (187 bases), U4 (145 bases), U5 (116 bases), U6 (107 bases)

They are transcribed from multiple gene copies. While their sequences are not particularly conserved (U6 being the most conserved of all), their secondary structure seems to be very conserved.

snRNAs are very important in the spliceosome, because they seem to be responsible for the catalytic activities.

Each of the 5 snRNAs forms a complex with proteins, and the complex takes the name of snRNP. The whole spliceosome includes at least 145 different proteins, maybe more, some of which are still not well known.

I will mention here some of the most important:

 

U1 snRNP:

U1 snRNP 70 kDa  (P08621, 437 AAs)

U1 snRNP A (P09012, 282 AAs)

U1 snRNP C  (P09234, 159 AAs)

Sm proteins: 7 small proteins (76 – 240 AAs) which form the “Sm core” ring in spliceosome subunits U1, U2, U4, U5, a ring which hosts the specific snRNA molecule.

 

U2 snRNP:

U2 snRNP A’ (P09661, 255 AAs)

U2 snRNP  B” (P08579, 225 AAs)

SF3a120 (Q15459, 793 AAs)

SF3a66 (Q15428, 464 AAs)

SF3a60 (Q12874, 501 AAs)

SF3b155 (O75533, 1304 AAs)

SF3b145 (Q13435,  895 AAs)

SF3b130 (Q15393, 1217 AAs)

SF3b49 (Q15427, 424 AAs)

SF3b14a/p14 (Q9Y3B4, 125 AAs)

SF3b10 (Q9BWJ5, 86 AAs)

Sm proteins

 

U4/U6 snRNP:

Prp3 (O43395, 683 AAs)

Prp31 (Q8WWY3, 499 AAs)

Prp4 (O43172, 522 AAs)

Cyph ( O43447, 177 AAs)

15.5 K (P55769, 128 AAs)

Sm proteins (for the U4 snRNA)

Lsm proteins: a number of proteins similar to Sm proteins (usually Lsm 2-8), which form a specific ring for the U6 snRNA.

 

U5 snRNP:

Prp8 (Q6P2Q9, 2335 AAs)

BRR2 (O75643, 2136 AAs)

Snu114 (Q15029, 972 AAs)

Prp6 (O94906, 941 AAs)

Prp28 (Q9BUQ8, 820 AAs)

52 K (O95400, 341 AAs)

40 K (Q96DI7, 357 AAs)

Sm proteins

 

Additional proteins in the U4/U6/U5 complex:

hSnu66 (O43290, 800 AAs)

hSad1 (Q53GS9, 565 AAs)

27 K (Q8WVK2, 155 AAs)

 

OK, these are only the main components, and the best understood. We are still far from the sum total of 145/150 proteins which are involved in the spliceosome cycle.

But how does it work?

Always in brief. Here is a typical exon-intron structure:

Fig. 3

 

Parts of an intron – By miguelferig (Own work) [Public domain], via Wikimedia Commons

 

GU, A and AG are nucleotides almost universally conserved in all introns, approximately at the positions shown in the figure, and which have a fundamental role in splicing. However, the real stuff is much more complex than this (see the splicing code section). GU (n. 4 in the figure) is near to the 5′ end of the intron, AG (n. 1) near to the 3′ end. The A (n. 3 in the figure) is called “the branch point”. The py-py-py (n. 2 in the figure) is the “polypyrimidine tract”.

a) The U1 subunit binds to the GU sequence at the 5′ splice site in the intron

b) The U2 subunit binds to the “branch point”.

c) The U4/U6/U5 binds to the complex.

d) Numeorus further modifications take place, causing the formation of a “lariat” (including the intron), which is then cleaved, while the two exons are ligated.

I will spare you the many complexities in all the various steps, which are well summarized (in a very simplified way) in this Wikipedia page:

RNA splicing

See in particular the “Formation and activity” section.

Or, if you like more detail, here:

Spliceosome Structure and Function

And here is a very good video on the whole splicing process in yeast:

 

 

Now, if somebody still has doubts about the complexity of this molecular machine/process, let’s consider some important aspects.

  • 1. The spliceosome is a molecular machine which appears in eukaryotes.

I quote from this paper (in the abstract):

Origin and evolution of spliceosomal introns

There is no indication that any prokaryote has ever possessed a spliceosome or introns in protein-coding genes, other than relatively rare mobile self-splicing introns.

The following Table shows how some of the main proteins involved in the spliceosome activity show practically no trace of homology in prokaryotes. I have included also included in the table two examples  which show low homologies due to some domain which is already expressed in prokaryotes: Prp4, whose 209 bits of homology are due to a specific domain, WD40, and Prp28, which exhibits 313 bits linked to the DEXDc domain. The point is: many of the spliceosome proteins are complete novelties in eukaryotes, but not all of them.

 

 Protein Bacteria Archea
U1 snRNP 70 kDa  (P08621, 437 AAs) 67
U2 SF3b130 (Q15393, 1217 AAs) 43.5
U4/U6 hPrp3 (O43395, 683 AAs)
U4/U6/U5 hSnu66 (O43290, 800 AAs)
U5 Prp8 (Q6P2Q9, 2335 AAs)
U5 Prp6 (O94906, 941 AAs) 100
U4/U6 hPrp4 (O43172, 522 AAs) 209 150
U/5 Prp28 (Q9BUQ8, 820 AAs) 313 286

 

I will analyze in more detail one of the most important proteins in the spliceosome, Prp8, in the last part of this OP

(Just a technical note: if you blast Prp8, you will find 3 hits which are obviously  an error due to unverified sequences, probably cases of contamination).

  • 2. The spliceosome is a molecular machine which is universally present in eukaryotes.

All eukaryotes have introns, even if in very different degrees, and the spliceosome, even if in some organisms parts of the spliceosome complex can be lost. For a more detailed discussion, look at the Rogozin paper quoted above (Origin and evolution of spliceosomal introns), in particular the section:

Intron density, size and distribution in protein coding genes across the eukaryote domain

I quote this important conclusion:

As pointed out above, despite the existence of numerous, diverse intron-poor genomes, eukaryotes do not lose the “last” intron or the spliceosome although degradation of the spliceosome including loss of many components does occur, e.g. in yeast. The only firmly established exception is the tiny genome of a nucleomorph (an extremely degraded intracellular symbiont of algae) that has lost both all the introns and the spliceosome [7]; preliminary genomic data indicate that all introns might have been lost also in a microsporidium, a highly degraded intracellular parasite distantly related to Fungi [54].

So, whe can conclude that both introns and the spliceosome are a universal feature of eukaryotes, the few exceptions being simply cases of loss of information.

  • 3. The spliceosome is a molecular machine whose information is extremely conserved throughout eukaryotes, up to humans.

I have already mentioned that the 5 RNAs which form the core of the spliceosome are not extremely conserved at sequence level, even if they are extremely conserved at structure level.

However, many of the proteins that compose the spliceosome show an amazing sequence conservation throughout eukaryotes. Now, even if we cannot be certain of when eukaryoyes really emerged, and of their early evolutionary history (both issues being at present highly controversial), we can reasonably assume that protein sequences which are highly conserved in all eukaryotes have been conserved for something like 2 billion years (more or less). As anybody who has followed my previous OPs about information conservation in vertebrates certainly knows, that is an evolutionary time frame which certainly allows us to equal conservation to extremely high functional constraint.

But how conserved are spliceosome proteins? We can analyze a few of them with my usual methodology: looking at human conserved information. The results shows that many proteins involved in the spliceosome are amazingly conserved in all eukaryotes. While there are a few cases which have a rather different evolutionary history, this is by far the most common behaviour for spliceosomal proteins.

Here is a sample of some important sequences that show high homology with the human form in all major groups of single celled eukaryotes. The 5 groups of single celled organisms chosen here, indeed, cover rather well the whole range of single celled eukaryotes.

 

Fig. 4

 

These four important proteins, as shown, have an amazing amount of information shared with the human form, ranging from more than 1000 to more than 4000 bits. In bits per AA, the range goes from 0.88 to 1.80 bits per aminoacid (baa).  As can be seen, the highest homology is found in fungi, as expected, because fungi are the most likely ancestors of metazoa. The lowest homologies are observed in Naegleria (Excavata) or in Alveolata.

Of course, these proteins remain highly similar to the human form in the following evolutionary history in Metazoa.

So, we can safely state that most spliceosomal proteins, while emerging almost entirely in eukaryotes and showing only trivial homologies with prokaryotes, were probably already universally present in the Last Universal Eukaryotic Ancestor (LECA), and in a form already very similar at sequence level to what we observe in metazoa and in humans.

  • 4. The spliceosome is a wonderful example of irreducibly complexity.

OK, we have already said that splicing can be achieved in at least three different ways. For example, bacterial introns, although rare, are of the self-splicing type. So, we know that the generic function of splicing introns can be implemented in different ways.

But eukaryotic introns are of the spliceosomal type, and they are spliced only by the spliceosome.

We have also said that a minor spliceosome also exists. It shares some featues with the major spliceosome, but it is a different structure and acts on different, and much rarer, introns.

So, for the vast majority of eukaryotic introns, the major spliceosome, and only the major spliceosome, can effectively accomplish the splicing.

Now, I don’t mean here that the major spliceosome must always be absolutely complete, with all its 150 proteins, to be able to work. That’s not what I mean when I say that it is irreducibly complex.

Maybe in some organisms the spliceosome can be partially defective, and still work. It is difficult to say, because we still don’t understand the role of all the components of the spliceosome.

But however, as far as we can understand, most of the principal features must be present, because, as we have seen, the splicing is the result of a complex cycle, involving the RNAs and the subunits, and all stages are essential to the final result.

So, the spliceosome is certainly highly irreducibly complex, even if we may not be able to clearly identify the essential nucleus of molecules which is absolutely necessary to the minimal function.

Moreover, the spliceosome would be useless if spliceosomal introns did not exist, with their properties and code (see later), and spliceosomal introns could not exist if the spliceosome were not there to splice them, because otherwise transcription would be completely ineffective. So, in that sense, spliceosomal introns and the spliceosome are a good example of chicken egg paradox, or we could also say that they form an irreducibly complex system at a higher level. And remember, the whole system seems to have been already present, very much similar to its current form in humans, in LECA, as we have seen.

But, of course, our darwinist friends will simply say that they have co-evolved!  🙂

Moreover, we can and should ask ourselves: why is the spliceosome so complex? The answer is not easy, because we still understand very little, but it is certainly related to the complexity of the splicing code, and to the fundamental issue of alternative splicing.

The Splicing code.

To splice introns by localizing 5 (or a few more) conserved nucleotides and then cutting at the ends of a lariat and rejoining the two exons is certainly a complex task, but apparently not so complex  that one of the biggest and most impressing known molecular machines is needed for that. But the simple truth is that recognizing and appropriately splicing all introns is a much more complex task than that.

That is due to the simple fact that conserved nucleotides at the ends are not a sufficient signal to identify the segment that has to be spliced, and that a lot of other components (not always well understood) are necessary to that, and that the splicing is not made always in the same way, and that alternative splicing is a very powerful tool for transcription regulation.

The subject is very complex, and I will not deal with it in depth. However, Those interested could look at this recent review:

The splicing code.

Unfortunately, the paper is paywalled, but the abstract is very informative.

The complexity of the splicing code can give us some insight about the true reasons for the complexity of the spliceosome, and definitely supposrts the idea that the whole system, introns, splicing code and spliceosome, is irreducibly complex.

The Prp8 protein.

I will add a few words about this proteins, which is probably the most amazing component of the spliceosome, and well represents its essential features.

This protein has many amazing charactertistics:

a) It is, as far as I can say, the longest protein in the whole spliceosomal system, and a very long protein indeed: 2335 AAs.

b) It is completely absent in prokaryotes.

c) It is extremely conserved in eukaryotes, probably the most conserved protein in the whole spliceosomal complex (see Fig. 4). In Naegleria, we have 3345 bits of homology with the human protein, corresponding to 1.4 baa, while in fungi we have the amazing result of 4211 bits of human-conserved information, corresponding to 1.8 baa. IOWs, in fungi we already find almost 90% of the functional information present in human Prp8 (remember, the highest possible bitscore is about 1.2 baas), corresponding to 1995 identities (86%) and 2155 positives (92%): a result which is incredibly rare, considering that such information has been conserved for about 2 billion years.

Just to emphasize the importance of this fact, here is the blast between the human protein and the best hit in fungi (Basidiobolus meristosporus):

 

 

d) It is a protein which is extremely important for the function of the spliceosome. Here is a very good paper about this protein and its functional relevance:

Prp8 protein: At the heart of the spliceosome

I quote from the conclusions:

Prp8p is central to the expression of all nuclear intron-containing mRNAs. In higher eukaryotes, it is responsible for processing thousands of transcripts in alternative splicing pathways, and in both U2 and U12 spliceosomes. It is important for the pathology of human disease, as all eukaryotic pathogens and parasites require Prp8p to functionally express their genes, in some cases via the trans-spliceosome. Retinitis Pigmentosa, a human genetic disorder that causes progressive blindness, positions Prp8p as a target for therapeutic medicine.

Moreover, another way to assess the functional constraints of a protein is to check its tolerance to polymorphisms in humans. That can be done consulting a very recent and useful database, the ExAC browser, which reports data from about 60000 human genomes.

ExAC gives two important metrics to assess how much a protein is tolerant to polymorphisms and variants. I quote here from the site FAQ:

What are the constraint metrics?

For synonymous and missense, we created a signed Z score for the deviation of observed counts from the expected number. Positive Z scores indicate increased constraint (intolerance to variation) and therefore that the gene had fewer variants than expected. Negative Z scores are given to genes that had a more variants than expected.

For LoF, we assume that there are three classes of genes with respect to tolerance to LoF variation: null (where LoF variation is completely tolerated), recessive (where heterozygous LoFs are tolerated), and haploinsufficient (where heterozygous LoFs are not tolerated). We used the observed and expected variants counts to determine the probability that a given gene is extremely intolerant of loss-of-function variation (falls into the third category). The closer pLI is to one, the more LoF intolerant the gene appears to be. We consider pLI >= 0.9 as an extremely LoF intolerant set of genes.

Now, for Prp8 we get the following results:

Constraint
from ExAC
Expected
no. variants
Observed
no. variants
Constraint
Metric
Synonymous 366.6 460 z = -3.02
Missense 920.2 266 z = 10.55
LoF 92.6 8 pLI = 1.00

That means the following:

a) The number of observed missense variants is so low vs expected (266 vs 920.2) that the z value is 10.55 (IOWs, 10.55 standard deviations, more than 10 sigma). Believe me, this is a really exceptional result, most proteins are much more tolerant to missense variants.

b) The probability of loss of function is 1. That means that even heterozygous LoF is absolutely not tolerated.

This is an extremely functional molecule, if ever there was one!

A brief conclusion.

To sum up the meaning of this rather long discussion, I would simply say:

  1. The introns – spliceosome system is a molecular machine of amazing complexity. I have touched only its main aspects in this OP, but believe me, there are layers of complexity there that would require a whole treatise and that I have not even started to mention here.
  2. Whoever can really believe that all this can be explained by some RV + NS model is, IMO, really admirable for his faith in a wrong paradigm.
Comments
https://www.google.com/amp/www.newsweek.com/life-solar-system-likely-exists-and-more-common-we-think-780229%3famp=1#ampshare=http://www.newsweek.com/life-solar-system-likely-exists-and-more-common-we-think-780229. More life for free? But they do mention the discovery on meteors of homochiralic amino acids which itself seems unlikelyes58
January 14, 2018
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gpuccio @342:
My personal impression is that, in the end, the strong premise which is the title itself of the OP has been convincingly argued for: The spliceosome is a molecular machine that defies any non-design explanation.
Actually, I think it has been strengthened. At least until professor Hunt presents his strong counterargument. Then things might change. Let's wait and see... :)Dionisio
January 12, 2018
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gpuccio, Someone said that chess used to be a Royal Game before the computers took over it. Now the mystery behind it is practically gone.Dionisio
January 12, 2018
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@343: There were other famous Italian chess players before the world championships started, but they were not from your neighborhood. I think they were from Napoli (or is it Naple?). Something I still don't know is how well they cook in the restaurants by the littoral in Palermo. The only way to find that out is going there personally. I might start planning a trip there after professor Hunt posts his next comment here. :)Dionisio
January 12, 2018
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gpuccio @342, Agree. What matters at the end of a serious discussion is how much additional light has been shed on the big picture. That's why a prerequisite for serious discussions is that all discussants are interested in finding the truth about the discussed topic. I don't think that condition is always met. In this particular thread I think several interesting related issues have been presented in your excellent OP and in the many follow up comments you and other folks have posted. Thus some of us -specially I- have learned very interesting things. Biology is turning more fantastic every day. I don't know how far it can get at this pace, but it's definitely fascinating, at least to me. I appreciate the effort you make and the time you take to research so thoroughly the topics you explain so well here.Dionisio
January 12, 2018
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Dionisio: "BTW, was Paolo Boi (c. 1575) the greatest chess player from Sicily ?" You definitely know more about Sicily than I do! :)gpuccio
January 12, 2018
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Dionisio: I don't know why Arthur Hunt has not provided his announced argument. However, as you say, we still can wait. I like intellectual confrontation, and in a sense it can be compared to a fight, or to a chess game. But there is one important difference. In intellectual confrontation, it's not really important who wins or loses. In a sense, nobody wins or loses. What is really important is the discussion itself, the ideas that surface, the sincere approach to truth. That is true, IMO, for any serious discussion, and in a particular way for scientific discussions. So, when good ideas are expressed, and truth remains the true aim of the discussion, maybe even of the fight, I do believe that everyone wins. I hope that in this discussion a few good ideas have emerged. :) In the meantime, I would say that many interesting aspects of the spliceosome, and of some related structures, have been touched in some detail. That's good. My personal impression is that, in the end, the strong premise which is the title itself of the OP has been convincingly argued for: The spliceosome is a molecular machine that defies any non-design explanation. But, of course, that's just my opinion. And, as you said, we still can wait... :)gpuccio
January 12, 2018
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Was this the last time we heard from the professor? 164 December 26, 2017 at 8:10 pm That's a few days short of 3 weeks ago. Not that long yet. We still can wait... But maybe in the meantime, we could start refreshing our memory on some terminology of what used to be considered the Royal Game before computers took over it.
How to Checkmate in Chess
The purpose of the game is to checkmate the opponent's king. This happens when the king is put into check and cannot get out of check. There are only three ways a king can get out of check: move out of the way (though he cannot castle!), block the check with another piece, or capture the piece threatening the king. If a king cannot escape checkmate then the game is over. Customarily the king is not captured or removed from the board, the game is simply declared over.
How to Draw a Chess Game
Occasionally chess games do not end with a winner, but with a draw. There are 5 reasons why a chess game may end in a draw: The position reaches a stalemate where it is one player's turn to move, but his king is NOT in check and yet he does not have another legal move The players may simply agree to a draw and stop playing There are not enough pieces on the board to force a checkmate (example: a king and a bishop vs.a king) A player declares a draw if the same exact position is repeated three times (though not necessarily three times in a row) Fifty consecutive moves have been played where neither player has moved a pawn or captured a piece
Text quoted from https://www.chess.com/learn-how-to-play-chess I think we're seeing an obvious checkmate in this case, but that's just my uneducated opinion. What do y'all think it is? BTW, was Paolo Boi (c. 1575) the greatest chess player from Sicily ? :)Dionisio
January 12, 2018
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Any news from professor Arthur Hunt yet? :)Dionisio
January 11, 2018
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Discussion between AH and GP Index of posted comments: AH @25 …….……. GP @28 AH @50 AH @51 …….……. GP @54 AH @56 * …….……. GP @60 …….……. GP @69 …….……. GP @75 …….……. GP @86 …….……. GP @98 …….……. GP @106 …….……. GP @118 ** …….……. GP @119 ** …….……. GP @127 …….……. GP @129 AH @130 …….……. GP @136 …….……. GP @138 …….……. GP @146 …….……. GP @162 AH @164 …….……. GP @167 …….……. GP @176 …….……. GP @182 …….……. GP @198 …….……. GP @200 …….……. GP @201 …….……. GP @210 …….……. GP @211 …….……. GP @212 …….……. GP @231 …….……. GP @242 …….……. GP @253 ** …….……. GP @254 ** …….……. GP @263 …….……. GP @268 …….……. GP @294 …….……. GP @295 …….……. GP @296 …….……. GP @297 …….……. GP @313 ** …….……. GP @317 ** …….……. GP @319 ** …….……. GP @330 ** AH is the distinguished professor Arthur Hunt GP is the author of the excellent OP that started this discussion thread (*) first publicly admitted mistake @56 (**) related to the main discussion, but not addressed to professor A. Hunt directly (to be continued…)Dionisio
January 10, 2018
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Dionisio: Very interesting paper. With 500-1000 E3 ligases which provide the necessary specificity, the ubiquitin system could well be one of the most complex regulatory systems in biology! :)gpuccio
January 10, 2018
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gpuccio @330: "It’s particularly fascinating that such a mechanism (the Sde2 involvement in the spliceosome for the specific splicing of certain pre-mRNAs) is connected to the ubiquitin-specific proteases system, a regulation network which involves practically all cellular systems." a recent ubiquitin-related paper is referenced here: https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/rethinking-biology-what-role-does-physical-structure-play-in-the-development-of-cells/#comment-647913Dionisio
January 9, 2018
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gpuccio @330: "So we apparently have a scenario of a rather conserved spliceosome which acts a an universal machine, whose behaviour in different cases and in different species is finely regulated by lots of accessory factors, probably very specific for the different scenarios and the different species, and therefore much less conserved and highly differentiated." OK, this is a very delicate issue you've raised here. Let me explain: My former boss, the director of software development for y employer, came up with a killer idea that catapulted the product they developed to the top of the line in its niche industry. His idea, which was wisely based on his knowledge and experience in the given engineering design field, but also -very importantly- based on his numerous consultations with other engineers in the field. What was his idea? Well, basically what you just described in the mouthful statement quoted above. That's basically it. That was the game changer at that time. But now you tell me that his brilliant idea was thought of long before him? Next time I talk to him I'll mention this... I'll let you know his reaction. After looking at the amazing biological systems, computer-based systems out there look like Lego Duplo for toddlers. :)Dionisio
January 9, 2018
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Dionisio: "are you saying that those concepts in Computer Science were defined long before the universities were created?" So it seems! :)gpuccio
January 9, 2018
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gpuccio @330: RE: DATCG @323 reminds of modularity, systems drivers for specific devices, OOP/OOD object classes, etc. are you saying that those concepts in Computer Science were defined long before the universities were created? :)Dionisio
January 9, 2018
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Discussion between AH and GP Index of posted comments: AH @25 …….……. GP @28 AH @50 AH @51 …….……. GP @54 AH @56 * …….……. GP @60 …….……. GP @69 …….……. GP @75 …….……. GP @86 …….……. GP @98 …….……. GP @106 …….……. GP @118 …….……. GP @127 …….……. GP @129 AH @130 …….……. GP @136 …….……. GP @138 …….……. GP @146 …….……. GP @162 AH @164 …….……. GP @167 …….……. GP @176 …….……. GP @182 …….……. GP @198 …….……. GP @200 …….……. GP @201 …….……. GP @210 …….……. GP @211 …….……. GP @212 …….……. GP @231 …….……. GP @242 …….……. GP @253 ** …….……. GP @254 ** …….……. GP @263 …….……. GP @268 …….……. GP @294 …….……. GP @295 …….……. GP @296 …….……. GP @297 …….……. GP @313 ** …….……. GP @317 ** …….……. GP @319 ** …….……. GP @330 ** AH is the distinguished professor Arthur Hunt GP is the author of the excellent OP that started this discussion thread (*) first publicly admitted mistake @56 (**) related to the main discussion, but not addressed to professor A. Hunt directly (to be continued…)Dionisio
January 9, 2018
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@330: "The whole issue of spliceosomal introns in eukaryotes is a deep mystery. I think we still miss some important aspects of the whole matter."Dionisio
January 9, 2018
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DATCG @326: "What if instead of assumptions of blind process and degeneracy, we ask why this might be intentionally dispersed in relation to information as a definitional, rules based allocation of resources? For specific placement and retrieval purposes?" intriguing concept... hmm... the plot thickens... :)Dionisio
January 9, 2018
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DATCG: The "Direct Access Method" idea is very interesting. I have thought many times that this complex issue of introns, fragmentation of information, and so on strongly reminds information access problems in hardware and software. In comment 254 I wrote: "That reminds me a little of hard disk fragmentation, in a sense! You can write a file fragmenting it in many parts. But you certainly need some record of where the parts are, and of what they are." The whole issue of spliceosomal introns in eukaryotes is a deep mystery. I think we still miss some important aspects of the whole matter. Interestingly, as you very correctly suggest, while the spliceosome itself is a rather universal and flexible machine/system, a lot of extra components add to its function, making it specific for particular introns or group of introns, maybe providing also further support to regulation through alternative splicing. The Sde2 system, described in the paper you linked, is a very good example of that. It's particularly fascinating that such a mechanism (the Sde2 involvement in the spliceosome for the specific splicing of certain pre-mRNAs) is connected to the ubiquitin-specific proteases system, a regulation network which involves practically all cellular systems. Another interesting aspect is that the proteins involved (Sde2, UBP5, UBP15), while universally present in eukaryotes, change a lot in the course of natural history. In that sense, they are very different from Prp8 and other spliceosomal proteins. UBP15, for example, a 981 AAs long protein in humans, has very low homology scores in saccharomices species, the best hit being just 391 bits. This low conservation in regulatory proteins is, IMO, almost always a sign of functional differentiation, rather than low functional specificity (like in the case of HBB). So we apparently have a scenario of a rather conserved spliceosome which acts a an universal machine, whose behaviour in different cases and in different species is finely regulated by lots of accessory factors, probably very specific for the different scenarios and the different species, and therefore much less conserved and highly differentiated.gpuccio
January 9, 2018
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DATCG @326: Maybe, certainly it makes since from a bottom-up sense?Dionisio
January 9, 2018
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DATCG @324: I'm looking forward to reading professor Hunt's future comments on the pile of comments gpuccio has addressed to him. The distinguished professor is probably very busy with his many academic activities, but let's hope he'll find some time to come back and present his counterarguments to the detailed explanations gpuccio wrote in this thread.Dionisio
January 9, 2018
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DATCG @323: That's interesting what you've found. I look forward to reading gpuccio's comments on your posts.Dionisio
January 9, 2018
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before I forget, was going to post the other day on "Fragmented" and narrative of fragmented genes, etc., as degradation of original DNA. Maybe, certainly it makes since from a bottom-up, series of random mutations and unguided happenstance... from your previous post on "spoiled kid hypothesis..." and "evolutionary ratchet"
b) The complexity arises simply to compensate for random errors in the genome, in particular the degradation of the original DNA (fragmentation, transformation, loss of function). The authors call this the “spoiled kid hypothesis”, where the spoiled kid is the degenerate DNA of the gene, and the mutations in the nuclear genome which compensate for that degeneracy are called an “evolutionary ratchet”. IOWs, in this theory the complexity that arises to compensate for the degeneracy has one purpose only: to compensate for the degeneracy.
What if instead of assumptions of blind process and degeneracy, we ask why this might be intentionally dispersed in relation to information as a definitional, rules based allocation of resources? For specific placement and retrieval purposes? Another words, what might we be missing in terms of specific processing needs and organizational structure, as well as coordination? Design often times has trade offs, but with specific intent of cost/benefit analysis. What may look chaotic, degenerate, may be a different use for exceptions. Just thinking outside the box.DATCG
January 9, 2018
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DATG: Thank you for your inputs. I will look at them with great interest! :) You are always welcome to the discussion. :)gpuccio
January 9, 2018
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Look forward to reading Hunt's opinions on all of your postings Gpuccio. And where he migh have agreements or disagreements.DATCG
January 9, 2018
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Enjoying reading this series! Introns, the Spliceosome, all the other guidance mechanmisms in place for splicing are fascinating in regards to information processing, decision trees or branching. Was going to post previously in relation to Direct Access Methods - known as Random Access Method in past. What is Rule of Random Access Method? It is Not Random. It's directed. Highly regulated addressable assets for storage and retrieval. Great stuff at 295-... on down :) I suspect Introns are excellent case for Design principles. Found a bit more on paper you highlighted at #296... http://emboj.embopress.org/content/37/1/89 It's at Research Gate as well. Found this PDF by these authors here: Sde2 is an intron-specific pre-mRNA splicing regulator activated by ubiquitin-like processing> From the abstract:
These findings suggest that ubiquitin-like processing of Sde2 into a short-lived activated form may function as a checkpoint to ensure proper splicing of certain pre-mRNAs in fission yeast.
Activated for guided, specific splicing. Mutations could cause inefficiency or failure? "Sde2-C is an intron-specific pre-mRNA splicing factor"
LysSde2-C is a unique pre-mRNA splicing regulator LysSde2-C appears to function differently from other pre-mRNA splicing regulators of the spliceosome. LysSde2-C promotes efficient excision of selected introns from selected transcripts in S. pombe, but it is not required for general pre-mRNA splicing. LysSde2-C thereby becomes a critical control factor for the expression of selected proteins, a majority of which function at the chromatin. Therefore, growth defects or drug sensitivities of (Delta)sde2 strain could not be attributed to splicing defects of individual genes. The lack of any obvious common feature in Sde2 target pre-mRNAs leads us to postulate that some RNA secondary structures could make their splicing Sde2 dependent. Importantly, Sde2-specific proteases play a key regulatory role in pre-mRNA splicing by processing the inactive Sde2 precursor to generate the active spliceosomal LysSde2-C, as Sde2UBL is inhibitory for its incorporation into the spliceosome.
Fascinating regulatory functions. Wish I had more time to join in and catch up.DATCG
January 9, 2018
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gpuccio, My question @318 was dumb, but you graciously still managed to answer it @319 with a very clarifying (as usual) explanation and with sufficient technical details (also as usual) that even I can understand it. Thanks.Dionisio
January 9, 2018
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es58: This is, I suppose, one example of the "metabolism first" approach. These guys are hopeless, but at least they have understood that metabolism is a severe necessity for any form of life, which is certainly true. So they try the impossible to pursue that way. The tone of the "non scientific" article, however, is really funny: "Scientists think about 3.8 billion years ago, a cocktail of organic compounds managed to come together in some way to create the first life. We know it was primitive and dumb, but still — it was life!" This is, instead, the more serious abstract of the paper itself, for those who could be interested:
Linked cycles of oxidative decarboxylation of glyoxylate as protometabolic analogs of the citric acid cycle Abstract The development of metabolic approaches towards understanding the origins of life, which have focused mainly on the citric acid (TCA) cycle, have languished—primarily due to a lack of experimentally demonstrable and sustainable cycle(s) of reactions. We show here the existence of a protometabolic analog of the TCA involving two linked cycles, which convert glyoxylate into CO2 and produce aspartic acid in the presence of ammonia. The reactions proceed from either pyruvate, oxaloacetate or malonate in the presence of glyoxylate as the carbon source and hydrogen peroxide as the oxidant under neutral aqueous conditions and at mild temperatures. The reaction pathway demonstrates turnover under controlled conditions. These results indicate that simpler versions of metabolic cycles could have emerged under potential prebiotic conditions, laying the foundation for the appearance of more sophisticated metabolic pathways once control by (polymeric) catalysts became available.
gpuccio
January 8, 2018
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https://www.inverse.com/article/40032-evolution-of-life-on-earth-complex-metabolic-chemistry Hi origin of life solved againes58
January 8, 2018
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Dionisio: "What common molecule did the proteins HBB and Prp8 come from?" No common molecule, as far as I can see. They belong to different protein superfamilies, and they have nothing in common. If we blast one against the other (the human forms), the bitscore is 16.9, with an E value of 2.0. I would like to clarify one thing. When I say that we have strong evidence of molecular common descent, I mean that the protein homologues derive physically through common descent. IOWs, Human Prp8 derives with physical continuity for the Prp8 of the common ancestor of fish and tetrapods, to remain with my previous example. That is the only way we can explain the value of the Ks between the two proteins: neutral variation has acted on the protein, in each of the two lineages, after the split, in a way that is grossly proportional to time. Remember the values of Ka, Ks and Ka/Ks between human Prp8 and Fish Prp8 (390 million years split): Prp8 (Danio rerio vs human): Ka = 0.0139506 Ks = 1.482462 Ka/Ks = 0.009410427 Now, if we compute the same values between human Prp8 and mouse Prp8 (less than 100 million years split) we have: Prp8 (Mouse vs human): Ka = 0.000870346 Ks = 0.4489751 Ka/Ks = 0.001938517 Here, again, the Ka/Ks ratio is extremely low, because the Ka is greatly lower than the Ks. Hower, both Ka and Ks are much lower than the values we found in Danio rerio. Ka: 0.000870346 vs 0.0139506 Ks: 0.4489751 vs 1.482462 And if we look in particular to the two Ks values, which are influenced only by neutral variation, the ratio (fish-human / mouse/human) is: 3.30188 This corresponds rather well (considering the many approximations in evolutionary times and intrinsic variance of biological systems) to the ratio between the two approximate split times: 390 / 80 = 4.875 The important point is that such gross proportionality is retained throughout all groups of organisms and all time spans. For example, if we compute the Ks for human and chimp Prp8, the result is: Ks (chimp - humans): 0.01565742 Again, the ratio: fish-human Ks / chimp-human Ks 1.482462/0.01565742 = 65 is comparable to the ratio between the approximate split times: 390 / 6 = 94.68112 There is always this correspondence, extremely significant even is not precise, between evolutionary times and Ks values, in each pairwise confrontation. I am aware of no possible explanation for that pattern, other than neutral variation acting on homologues that are physically transmitted throughout evolutionary times. That's what I call molecular common descent. But when a new protein superfamily appears, there is no reason to believe that it derives from some other sequence ancestor. It could, if the engineering starts from some existing protein sequence, but if the engineering is so relevant that no sequence or structure similarity remains detectable (as it is the case for different superfamilies), we can have no proof of that derivation. Of course, a new sequence could also be engineered from non coding sequences, and therefore have no derivation from other protein sequences at all. For Prp8, we have seen that there are no sequence homologies in prokaryotes, but many believe that there are vague structure similarities with reverse transcriptases, and that therefore the molecule could distantly derive from some such sequence. As I have said, that is possible (but certainly not certain), but it is not interesting at all from the point of view of functional complexity, because the working sequence of Prp8 has nothing in common with reverse transcriptases except for vague structure similarities, and Prp8 is definitely not a reverse transcriptase. The huge functional sequence that is conserved almost entirely from the first eukaryotes to humans has practically nothing in common with the sequence of reverse transcriptases, and is a true sequence novelty that appears in eukaryotes.gpuccio
January 8, 2018
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