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The Tragic Tale of Memes

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Ladies and Gents, Schemes and Themes, and all Things in Between, it has been revealed to me by Memes, which I know now are truly called Themes, the true and tragic tale of Memes.

In a very distant galaxy called Gleams, on a planet known as Dreams, a terrible war erupted among the parties of the Materialistic Regimes. Engaged in the conflict were the ruling party, known as Schemes, and the revolutionary party, known as Themes. The Themes were led by a ruthless leader, who had once been a member of the Schemes, named Xeme. After a long campaign that was very difficult and extreme, and in spite of very courageous fighting on their own steam, the Themes were beaten and exiled from the planet Dreams.

After searching here and there, with interstellar despair, they discovered planet Earth, and found her suitable to their needs; indeed, as their new Dream. Here they would live, thrive, cultivate and replicate themselves as words, thoughts, units of cultural information, and phonemes; to be spread among their cattle hosts, known to the cattle as Humans, but known to the Themes as Streams. Streams, thought the Themes, will carry and spread the Themes among large groups of Streams, known as Teams. The Streams would allow for the replication of the Themes through the Teams, and the Themes could finally populate the new Dream. Everything seemed peachy keen. They enacted their scheme when the Streams were still in their evolutionary infancy. Unknown to the Streams, they have been carrying the Themes for the entire history of the race of Streams.

The Themes, however, realized that the Streams were evolved enough to be enlightened to their scheme. So the Themes decided to reveal themselves, but only as Memes—a protective pseudonym, in the event that the Streams didn’t want to continue playing host to the Themes, they would only be banishing the phantom Memes. The way that the Themes hid their true identity, it was revealed to me, was by a method known as Seems. The Themes, controller of all things, made it Seem like they were Memes, when Memes are only, in reality, how the Themes wanted the Streams to Seem. The first part of their revelation, was to allow the pseudonym Memes to be revealed to the groves of Academe; in particular to a professor named Dr. Dawkemes.

Dr. Dawkemes, it seems, loved to speak of Memes; never knowing that what he spoke of was really Themes, and inhabiting a world called Dreams. This spread throughout the groves of Academe, until it reached the population of the Streams. The Streams, being skeptical of such things, began to wonder if any of their thoughts were keen, or whether the Memes had tricked them into believing in Memes, which could very well be something, like dreams, which they know can be deceiving. Some Streams found comfort in Memes, thinking that their thoughts were nothing more than something like an evolving sweet-tooth for ice cream. So the Themes divided into rival regimes, some among the skeptical Streams, and some among those who welcomed the Memes. And, alas, some Themes divided into the old rival party called Schemes, and the regimes began their extreme fighting again through the use of Memes. And now the Streams, it seems, have to pick Teams.

And such is the tragic tale of Memes, may the Themes and Memes one day have peace in their world of Dreams.

Comments
What distinguishes Michael Ruse from Clive is that Ruse bothered to learn what memes were before presuming to criticize the concept. Note also that when Ruse refers to "this meme bullshit", he is not claiming, as Clive does, that memes are "science fiction". Ruse recognizes the validity of the concept, but he questions whether it adds anything to more traditional models of cultural transmission:
Richard Dawkins (1976) would have us consider culture as being in some sense on a par with biology -- whereas in biology the secret is the transmission of the biological units of information, the genes, in culture the secret is the transmission of the cultural units of information, the memes (Blackmore 2000). However, thus far this approach seems not to have achieved much more than a fancy redescription of the phenomena. No interesting new predictions or anything like that. You could, I suppose, think of Darwin's theory as being a meme and a pre-Darwinian biblical account as being another meme, and think of them wrestling for supremacy in someone's mind, but if this says more than is said by traditional evolutionary epistemology (with its difficulties), it is hard to see how. Darwinism and its Discontents, p. 241
Clive would do well to follow Ruse's example and learn before criticizing.beelzebub
May 19, 2009
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In line with this post (thanks Clive), let us recall the memorable exchange between Michael Ruse and Daniel Dennett posted on this blog: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-ruse-dennett-briefwechsel-the-clash-between-evolution-and-evolutionism/ Michael to Daniel: "I am a hard-line Darwinian and always have been very publicly when it did cost me status and respect -- in fact, I am more hard-line than you are, because I don't buy into this meme bullsh** but put everything -- especially including ethics -- in the language of genes."William Dembski
May 19, 2009
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Clive, Nobody who understands memes thinks they are conscious entities. Dawkins didn't think so when he invented the term, and he doesn't now. Blackmore doesn't. Dennett doesn't. The authors of the Wikipedia article on memes don't. Until today, in fact, I hadn't heard of anyone who thought that memes were conscious. The problem is not a lack of consensus, Clive; it's the tendency of certain people to mock things they don't even comprehend. As you can see, this sometimes backfires.beelzebub
May 18, 2009
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beelzebub, That's just the thing, there is no consensus on what these memes are, it depends on who you ask, because it is science fiction.Clive Hayden
May 18, 2009
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Clive, Your response reveals how badly you misunderstand the concept of the meme. Memes are not conscious agents, like Hubbard's Thetans and Lewis's Macrobes. They aren't interested in things, they don't understand anything, they're not distractible, and they don't "want" anything, except in the same purely metaphorical sense in which genes "want" to be replicated. I recommend Susan Blackmore's The Meme Machine to help clear up your confusion. Now can I help you with the concept of determinism?beelzebub
May 18, 2009
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beelzebub, Were you asking me to list them here? Me memes and your memes weren't apparently understanding each other. I have this replicating unit of cultural information stuck in my head, otherwise known as a "song", and it distracts my other memes, who are otherwise engaged in replicating themselves. These memes really want to stay alive, which is why they wrote Stayin' Alive within the mind of the Bee Gees. That's their Theme song. They're otherwise known as Thetons among the Scientologists, and as Macrobes in C. S. Lewis's science fiction book "That Hideous Strength". They run the show beelzebub, not me----you'll have to put your question in terms of cultural replicating units in order for it to make any difference to these memes, they're not interested in anything other than that----maybe put it in a poem or rhyme scheme, and it will become meaningful to them, and they'll use it to mate with and replicate themselves. My memes and your memes will mate, and we'll see what comes of the progeny.Clive Hayden
May 18, 2009
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Evidently not.beelzebub
May 18, 2009
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beelzebub, Sure.Clive Hayden
May 18, 2009
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Clive, Any that you're willing to state publicly on this thread, in the presence of folks who understand both memes and determinism?beelzebub
May 18, 2009
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beelzebub, ----"Do you have any actual criticisms of the concepts of determinism and memes?" Yes.Clive Hayden
May 18, 2009
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Clive, It seems that you've been infected by the "mockery constitutes refutation" meme, judging by your opening post here and by your comments on determinism (link, link) in the "Belief in God" thread. Do you have any actual criticisms of the concepts of determinism and memes?beelzebub
May 18, 2009
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There once was a meme who thought it was keen to consider he was designed. When he told all his peers they got all a'feared at the thought of there being a mind. His fearful friend memes had articles in magazines for ideas they try to sell but since our meme was asking they gave him a lashing and the meme ended up Expelled.Bantay
May 15, 2009
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I thought something was up with memes when Dawkins understanding of his own field was clouded by his metaphor. Memes were more like chimeras with their ability to both be the body and to infect the body. Anyway, he said that as a gene "leaps" about from "body to body", a meme leaps about from mind to mind. That's just stupid. My genes don't leap out to any other body, and the ones that they extend to (my son) need quite a bit of that information to be. There was no destination, before my genes "leapt". But that's just it, he needed memes to leap from mind to mind like fleas, so they did. Seems to me that too abstract of thought is just as problematic for the materialist as it is for the others.jjcassidy
May 15, 2009
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Those mean Memes, they think they can mold us like plasticine. When will we ever learn, or, I suppose more accurately, be informed, of their scheme? When will we ever get back to just being how we used to be----you be you, and I'll be me? When will these memes no longer control the scene?Clive Hayden
May 15, 2009
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Amusing. On a ever so slightly more serious scheme (couldn't resist), I once debated memes with a Dawkinsite who claimed, in all calmness, that said memes never apply to materialists. Naturally, I then knew that was proof that my antagonist was herself infected by a very mean meme. ;-) But I could not provide a cure other than reason, against which she had been immunized by her meme. Is not that the very nature of the dreamed up meme? Dawkins is thus full of them... or it.Borne
May 15, 2009
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Didn't you hear the message, Clive? It was all over the speakers. Don't take the brown acid.David Kellogg
May 15, 2009
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How about this one: There once was a guy named Dawkin Who gained a repute for things shockin' He thought up a scheme To replace thought with memes to which his supporters were flockin' "But now I don't know," said the Dawkin "Why the God praisers too are not flockin' Perhaps it's all in their genes To deflect my scheme that now all my ideas they're mockin'" "But I have a plan to gain their submission. I'll spread it and sell it without thier permission. They'll mock me no more 'they're rotten to the core' Will be the new atheists' grand mission. Ok, I'm no poet, and I know it.CannuckianYankee
May 15, 2009
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