Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

“The universe is too big, too old and too cruel”: three silly objections to cosmological fine-tuning (Part One)

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In previous articles, I have argued that even if our universe is part of some larger multiverse, we still have excellent scientific grounds for believing that our universe – and also the multiverse in which it is embedded – is fine-tuned to permit the possibility of life. Moreover, the only adequate explanation for the extraordinary degree of fine-tuning we observe in the cosmos is that it is the product of an Intelligence. That is the cosmological fine-tuning argument, in a nutshell. My articles can be viewed here:

So you think the multiverse refutes cosmological fine-tuning? Consider Arthur Rubinstein
Beauty and the multiverse
Why a multiverse would still need to be fine-tuned, in order to make baby universes

Scientific challenges to the cosmological fine-tuning argument can be ably rebutted, as this article by Dr. Robin Collins shows. However, there are three objections to fine-tuning which I keep hearing from atheists over and over again. Here they are:

1. If the universe was designed to support life, then why does it have to be so BIG, and why is it nearly everywhere hostile to life? Why are there so many stars, and why are so few orbited by life-bearing planets?

2. If the universe was designed to support life, then why does it have to be so OLD, and why was it devoid of life throughout most of its history? For instance, why did life on Earth only appear after 70% of the cosmos’s 13.7-billion-year history had already elapsed? And Why did human beings (genus Homo) only appear after 99.98% of the cosmos’s 13.7-billion-year history had already elapsed?

3. If the universe was designed to support life, then why does Nature have to be so CRUEL? Why did so many animals have to die – and why did so many species of animals have to go extinct (99% is the commonly quoted figure), in order to generate the world as we see it today? What a waste! And what about predation, parasitism, and animals that engage in practices such as serial murder and infant cannibalism?

In today’s post, I’m not going to attempt to provide any positive reasons why we should expect an intelligently designed universe to be big and old, and why we should not be too surprised if it contains a lot of suffering. I’ll talk about those reasons in my next post. What I’m going to do in this post is try to clear the air, and explain why I regard the foregoing objections to the cosmic fine-tuning argument as weak and inconclusive.

Here are seven points I’d like atheists who object to the cosmological fine-tuning argument to consider:

1. If you don’t like the universe that we live in, then the onus is on you to show that a better universe is physically possible, given a different set of laws and/or a different fundamental theory of physics. Only when you have done this are you entitled to make the argument that our universe is so poorly designed that no Intelligent Being could possibly have made it.

At this point, I expect to hear splutterings of protest: “But that’s not our problem. It’s God’s. Isn’t your God omnipotent? Can’t He make anything He likes – including a perfect universe?” Here’s my answer: “First, the cosmological fine-tuning argument claims to establish the existence of an Intelligent Designer, who may or may not be omnipotent. Second, even an omnipotent Being can only make things that can be coherently described. So what I want you to do is provide me with a physical model of your better universe, showing how its laws and fundamental theory of physics differ from those of our universe, and why these differences make it better. Until you can do that, you’d better get back to work.”

2. Imaginability doesn’t imply physical possibility. I can imagine a winged horse, but that doesn’t make it physically possible. The question still needs to be asked: “How would it fly?” I can also imagine a nicer universe where unpleasant things never happen, but I still have to ask myself: “What kind of scientific laws and what kind of fundamental theory would need to hold in that nicer universe, in order to prevent unpleasant things from happening?”

3. As Dr. Robin Collins has argued, the laws of our universe are extremely elegant, from a mathematical perspective. (See also my post, Beauty and the multiverse.) If there is an Intelligent Designer, He presumably favors mathematical elegance. However, even if a “nicer” universe proved to be physically possible, in a cosmos characterized by some other set of scientific laws and a different fundamental theory of physics, the scientific laws and fundamental theory of such a universe might not be anywhere near as mathematically elegant as those of the universe that we live in. The Intelligent Designer might not want to make a “nice”, pain-free universe, if doing so entails making a messy, inelegant universe.

4. If a Designer wanted to design a universe that was free from animal suffering (i.e. a world in which animals were able to avoid noxious stimuli, without the conscious feeling of pain), there are two ways in which He could accomplish this: He could either use basic, macro-level laws of Nature (e.g. “It is a law of Nature that no animal that is trapped in a forest fire shall suffer pain”) or micro-level laws (i.e. by making laws of Nature precluding those physical arrangements of matter in animals’ brain and nervous systems which correspond to pain).

The first option is incompatible with materialism. If you believe in the materialist doctrine of supervenience (that any differences between two animals’ mental states necessarily reflect an underlying physical difference between them), it automatically follows that if a trapped animal’s brain and nervous system instantiates a physical arrangement of matter which corresponds to pain, then that animal will suffer pain, period. No irreducible, top-down “macro-level” law can prevent that, in a materialistic universe. So if you’re asking the Designer to make a world where unpleasant or painful things never happen by simply decreeing this, then what you’re really asking for is a world in which animals’ minds cannot be described in materialistic terms. Are you sure you want that?

The second option is unwieldly. There are a vast number of possible physical arrangements of matter in animals’ brain and nervous systems which correspond to pain, and there is no single feature that they all possess in common, at the micro level. An Intelligent Designer would need to make a huge number of extra laws, in order to preclude each and every one of these physical arrangements. That in turn would make the laws of Nature a lot less elegant, when taken as a whole. The Intelligent Designer might not want to make such an aesthetically ugly universe.

Eliminating animal suffering might not be a wise thing to do, in any case. One could argue that the conscious experience of pain is, at least sometimes, biologically beneficial, since it subsequently leads to survival-promoting behavior: “Once bitten, twice shy.” (An automatic, unconscious response to noxious stimuli might achieve the same result, but perhaps not as effectively or reliably as conscious pain.) However, if the Designer is going to allow survival-promoting pain into His world, then He will have to allow the neural states corresponding to that pain. If He still wants to rule out pain that doesn’t promote survival, then He’s going to have to make funny, top-down “macro-level” laws to ensure this – for instance: “It is a law of nature that neural state X [which correspinds to pain in one’s right toe] is only allowed to exist if it benefits the animal biologically.” Note the reference to the whole animal here. You’re asking Mother Nature to check whether the pain would be biologically beneficial to the animal as a whole, before “deciding” whether to allow the animal to experience the feeling of pain or not. But that’s a “macro-level” law, and hence not the kind of law which any card-carrying materialist could consistently ask a Designer to implement.

5. Objections to fine-tuning are of no avail unless they are even more powerful than arguments for fine-tuning. I’d like to use a simple mathematical example to illustrate the point. (I’ve deliberately tried to keep this illustration as jargon-free – and Bayes-free- as possible, so that everyone can understand it.) Suppose, for argument’s sake, that the cosmic fine-tuning argument makes it 99.999999999999999999999 per cent likely (given our current knowledge of physics) that the universe had a Designer. Now suppose, on the other hand, that the vast size and extreme age of the universe, combined with the enormous wastage of animal life and the huge amount of suffering that has occurred during the Earth’s history, make it 99.999999 per cent likely (given our current scientific knowledge of what’s physically possible and what’s not) that a universe containing these features didn’t have a Designer. Given these figures, it would still be rational to accept the cosmic fine-tuning argument, and to believe that our universe had a Designer. Put simply: if someone offers me a 99.999999999999999999999 per cent airtight argument that there is an Intelligent Designer of Nature, and then someone else puts forward a 99.999999 per cent airtight argument that there isn’t an Intelligent Designer, I’m going to go with the first argument and distrust the second. Any sensible person would. Why? Because the likelihood that the first argument is wrong is orders of magnitude lower than the likelihood that the second argument is wrong. Putting it another way: the second argument is “leakier” than the first, so we shouldn’t trust it, if it appears to contradict the first.

6. For the umpteenth time, Intelligent Design theory says nothing about the moral character of the Designer. Even if an atheist could demonstrate beyond all doubt that no loving, personal Designer could have produced the kind of universe we live in, would that prove that there was no Designer? No. All it would show is that the Designer was unloving and/or impersonal – in which case, the logical thing to do (given the strength of the fine-tuning argument) would be to become a Deist. Of course, you might not like such an impersonal Deity – and naturally, it wouldn’t like you, either. But as a matter of scientific honesty, you would be bound to to acknowledge its existence, if that’s where the evidence led.

I’m genuinely curious as to why so few Intelligent Design critics have addressed the philosophy of Deism, and I can only put it down to pique. It’s as if the critics are saying, “Well, I don’t want anything to do with that kind of Deity, as it’s indifferent to suffering. Therefore, I refuse to even consider the possibility that it might exist.” When one puts it like that, it does seem a rather silly attitude to entertain, doesn’t it?

7. From time to time, I have noticed that some atheist critics of the cosmological fine-tuning argument make their case by attacking the God of the Bible. I have often wondered why they focus their attack on such a narrow target, as people of many different religions (and none) can still believe in some sort of God. I strongly suspect that the underlying logic is as follows:

(i) if the cosmological fine-tuning argument is true then there is a Transcendent Designer;

(ii) if there is a Transcendent Designer then it’s possible that this Designer is the God of the Bible;

(iii) but it is impossible that the God of the Bible could exist, because He is a “moral monster”;

(iv) hence, the cosmological fine-tuning argument is not true.

This is a pathological form of reasoning, since it is emotionally driven by a visceral dislike of the God of the Bible. Nevertheless, I believe this form of reasoning is quite common among atheists.

What’s wrong with the foregoing argument? (I shall assume for the purposes of the discussion below that step (i) is true.) At a cursory glance, the argument looks valid:

if A is true then B is true; if B is true then it is possible that C; but it is not possible that C; hence A is not true.

The argument is invalid, however, because it confuses epistemic possibility with real (ontological) possibility. If something is epistemically possible, then for all we know, it might be true. But if something is ontologically possible, then it could really happen. The two kinds of possibility are not the same, because we don’t always know enough to be sure about what could really happen.

Step (ii) of the foregoing argument relates to epistemic possibility, not ontological possibility. It does not say that there is a real possibility that the God of the Bible might exist; it simply says that for all we know, the Transcendent Designer might turn out to be the God the Bible.

Step (iii) of the argument, on the other hand, relates to ontological possibility. It amounts to the claim that since the God the Bible is morally absurd, in His dealings with human beings, no such Being could possibly exist, in reality.

Now, I’m not going to bother discussing the truth or falsity of step (iii) in the foregoing argument. All I intend to say in this post is that even if you believe it to be true, the argument above is an invalid, because the two kinds of possibility in steps (ii) and (iii) are not the same.

Indeed, if you were absolutely sure that step (iii) were true, then you would have to deny step (ii). In which case, the argument fails once again.

In short: attacking the cosmological fine-tuning argument by ridiculing the God of the Bible is a waste of time.

I would like to conclude by saying that atheists who object to the cosmological fine-tuning argument really need to do their homework. Let’s see your better alternative universe, and let’s see your scientific explanation of how it works.

Comments
Sorry, logged in under "Meleagar" above. Still haven't figured out how to get rid of that log-in.William J Murray
September 4, 2011
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Did I say you employed those tactics, markf? My implication, in case you missed it, was that if one views an "appeal to emotion" the equivalent of "rational debate" (which you did in the quote) as per Hume, as you many atheists/materialists do, it necessarily indemnifies the things I listed as completely justifiable and as rational an argument as anything else - explaining, IMO, why so many Hume-anists freely utilize such Alinsky-esque tactics. Polite and temperate wording may make a debate civil, but they do not make a debate rational. Without agreed premises, no rational debate can ensue.Meleagar
September 4, 2011
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Looks like a full-blown case of reduction to absurdity to me. It is plain that evo mat has in it no is capable of sustaining ought beyond individual or collective subjective impulses. As was pointed out from the beginning. Cue: might makes right.kairosfocus
September 4, 2011
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Passive-aggressive, pretend the other voice has nothing to say [or can't say anything worth reading or responding . . . , obfuscate, etc.kairosfocus
September 4, 2011
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"Hume-anists," interesting . . .kairosfocus
September 4, 2011
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A few thoughts about slavery. First, it was not a tyrannical owner-property type of arrangement. An Israelite could be executed for killing a slave the same as anyone else. It was also an alternative to poverty or starvation. By law slaves were set free at regular intervals. In the first century slavery was already in place when Christianity spread. Contrary to its popular depiction today, Christianity was not a social movement intended to overthrow unjust laws. Christian slaves were counseled to be obedient to the arrangement. The purpose was to reflect well on Christianity, and instigating rebellion would not have served it well. Likewise, Christian slave owners were counseled to treat their slaves well and remember that both were equal in God's eyes, which also shows that God did not make a distinction between the two. There is nothing in the Bible telling Christians to own slaves. It was a practice which was commonplace and which God saw fit to permit. What matters is that in neither case was the heinous slavery practiced which treated men like owned animals. That still doesn't make it sit well. The idea is repugnant to us. It boils down to the same question. Are we willing to entertain the possibility that a greater mind made decisions based on knowledge, understanding, and wisdom that we do not possess? Or is our own understanding the yardstick by which everything is measured? The former should be familiar to us as we were all once children, and parents should understand it twice as well. (How many times do we tell our disappointed kids that one day they will understand?) But ultimately it's just a choice. Again, contrary to some popular thinking, the Bible doesn't tell Christians to force either their morality or their beliefs on anyone.ScottAndrews
September 4, 2011
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William - would you care to point a case where I have employed attack and destroy tactics, appeals to ridicule, intimidation, denial, ad hominem, etc?markf
September 4, 2011
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If you feel it is morally acceptable to torture an infant for fun, then by definition derived from your world-view, it is moral.
We are going round in circles. There might be such a person who thinks this is moral and it would be moral for them - that doesn't make it moral for you or me. And we would think they were wrong and try very hard to stop them. Luckily there are very few such people. But we covered this before. The word “moral” means whatever you feel it means, or whatever it “seems” to mean to you at the time, without regard for any foundational principle. And what does the word "moral" mean to you? Think about this carefully before you answer. Because if we mean different things by "moral" then our disagreement is purely semantic - what is the meaning of the word.
markf
September 4, 2011
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Ultimately, in a debate concerning subjective matters, all parties can agree to disagree.
Not always. It depends on the subject matter. You might think it is subjective which is the best composer - but if you are on a panel that has to choose the best composer for a musical event you cannot "agree to disagree" because your opinion effects everyone else. That is true of morality. If I think homosexuality is wrong and someone else thinks it is OK we will not be satisfied with agreeing to disagree.markf
September 4, 2011
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MarkF said:
In fact my main point is that you can have a rational debate about what you ought or ought not to without having agreed such as set of facts. Just study real debates about moral issues. People very rarely appeal to some ultimate set of rules (and when they do they typically differ over what the rules are). They appeal to emotion.
Note how in the end markf characterized the "rational debates" he is speaking of as, ultimately, nothing but appeals to emotion. And here we see why atheists/materialists so often employ Alinksy attack and destroy tactics, appeals to ridicule, intimidation, denial, ad hominem, etc.; such arguments, to them, are nothing more than emotional manipulations, the attempt to get others to support their view by any and all means. For such post-modern Hume-anists, logic is nothing more than one more club with which to beat others into ideological submission.William J Murray
September 4, 2011
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MarkF said:
There are distinctive motives and emotions which we categorised as moral.
Since your position appears to be that it is rational to consider something moral or immoral for no reason other than you feel that way (since you don't know how others feel despite your use of the collective personal pronoun "we"), there really is no way to argue against "what one feels", any more than I can argue against your favorite color or food, or what you consider to be the greatest composer or the most interesting sport. Moral solipsism provides no basis for rational argument. If you feel it is morally acceptable to torture an infant for fun, then by definition derived from your world-view, it is moral. The word "moral" means whatever you feel it means, or whatever it "seems" to mean to you at the time, without regard for any foundational principle.
Why should I consider the natural moral order or whatever “rational” foundation you believe in to be about morality?
It would allow a rational debate about morality, which is not possible under Hume-inspired anti-rationalism that describes morality (and all things) as whatever one feels it is, or whatever it seems to you to be at the time.William J Murray
September 4, 2011
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Debates that feature appeals to emotion only offer heat, not light. Ultimately, in a debate concerning subjective matters, all parties can agree to disagree. So, to an atheist 'Thou Shalt Not Steal' is something they can literally take or leave and no-one will have any truthful grounds to disagree. Though of course, as we learned from the riots, Thou Shalt Steal if you believe you can get away with it. Nothing irrational about that line of reasoning if atheism is true.Chris Doyle
September 4, 2011
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Chris I agree with some parts of what you say. Many believers have an unconditional, objectively true and absolutely authoritative set of moral rules to guide them through this life. Of course: * The differ among themselves as to what those rules are. For example, look at the very different rules on homosexuality. * Some don't have any such rules. * Those that have rules do not typically question the rationale for whichever set of rules they happen to follow. Atheists are less inclined to have formal set of rules, although some do e.g. committed communists. Atheists are more inclined to have a bottom-up reality based on what they feel to be right and wrong so that their rules are descriptive rather than prescriptive. I have never pretended there is a rational basis for morality in the sense on an ultimate set of facts from which we can all deduce what everyone ought to do. In fact my main point is that you can have a rational debate about what you ought or ought not to without having agreed such as set of facts. Just study real debates about moral issues. People very rarely appeal to some ultimate set of rules (and when they do they typically differ over what the rules are). They appeal to emotion.markf
September 4, 2011
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Why should I consider any of those things examples of morality or immorality in the first place? Because I “feel” they are moral or immoral?
Yes. There are distinctive motives and emotions which we categorised as moral. Why should I consider the natural moral order or whatever "rational" foundation you believe in to be about morality? Just because you use the word "moral" in its description?
For those who follow Hume, “reason” is nothing more than saying and believing whatever one feels like.
Uhm - how much time have you spent reading Hume?markf
September 4, 2011
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markf said:
You seem to think that in order to have a rational debate about anything it is necessary to agree objective criteria first. This seems to me patently false. It is similar with morality. There are all sorts of things that generally induce negative and positive moral attitudes (disapproval or approval) in people e.g. the suffering of children, failure to meet obligations, loyalty, self-sacrifice. None of these has to be a necessary or sufficient condition but they are all rational considerations.
More question-begging. Why should I consider any of those things examples of morality or immorality in the first place? Because I "feel" they are moral or immoral? Is that your basis of a rational debate? Feelings? I guess so, since you would send me to Hume for my "rational" moral education: "Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office than to serve and obey them." - Hume. For those who follow Hume, "reason" is nothing more than saying and believing whatever one feels like.William J Murray
September 4, 2011
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If I have a debate with you about which sport is more interesting we don’t need to agree objective criteria for “interesting” beforehand. I believe this sums up differences you and I have had in the past about this too, Mark. Can you honestly not tell the difference between finding something "interesting", or even forming a strong opinion about something like sport or art and the duties and obligations of morality? Or the difference between rules that cannot be bent or broken and rules that change depending on your personal circumstances and emotional state? The unbridgeable gap that lies between atheists like yourself and believers like myself is this: Believers have an unconditional, objectively true and absolutely authoritative set of moral rules to guide them through this life. Atheists, on the other hand, are not bound by any moral rules (even if they choose to live a lie by following them nonetheless) and have every reason to make up the moral rules as they go along: and even break them whenever it suits. The most that these discussions can achieve is for everyone, particularly atheists, to agree to that frankly indisputable fact. Then, if you can live with that, then live with it. And promote it if you have the courage of your convictions! We're all free to choose how we lead our lives but don't pretend atheism offers a rational basis for morality when it obviously doesn't. Atheists only know about morality in the first place because it is a powerful, enduring, universally true religious concept.Chris Doyle
September 4, 2011
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Oh dear - I don't think we are ever going to bridge this gap. You seem to think that in order to have a rational debate about anything it is necessary to agree objective criteria first. This seems to me patently false. If I have a debate with you about which sport is more interesting we don't need to agree objective criteria for "interesting" beforehand. We just look at the kind of things that people on the whole find interesting - variety, subtley, tension. None of these is a necessary or sufficient condition - a debate clincher - but they are all rational considerations. It is similar with morality. There are all sorts of things that generally induce negative and positive moral attitudes (disapproval or approval) in people e.g. the suffering of children, failure to meet obligations, loyalty, self-sacrifice. None of these has to be a necessary or sufficient condition but they are all rational considerations. I get the impression you have not had much formal education in moral philosophy. May I recommend reading Hume. "An Enquiry Concerning the Principles of Morals" is short and very readable.markf
September 4, 2011
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markf said:
* Whether Mozart was a greater composer than Elton John * Whether American football is a more interesting sport than Soccer I hope you agree that for all of these you do not have to assume the answer is objective to argue, examine logically, and debate the issue (For example, in the last case someone might point to the number of scoring events, the time in play, the variety of tactics etc.) So why should it be necessary to assume morality is objective? So I can have a rational moral basis for arresting and imprisoning Jeffrey Dahmer just as I can have rational artistic basis for preferring Mozart to Elton John. And neither need be based on ultimate objective criteria – although of course they will be based on deeply held human preferences.
I will once again point out where you have begged the question and have refuted your own argument. Notice how you have subjectively selected specific objective criteria in the subject matter and then state (correctly) that you can have rational debates about music and sports only after one has selected an objective grounding for their debate. The problem, however, is that because there is no objective standard as to what "great" and "interesting" mean or refer to, there is no reason for me to accept any of your "objective criteria" targets in the first place as arbiters of any discussion that aims to conclude which is greater or more interesting. It is precisely because "great" and "interesting" are themselves concepts that refer to completely subjective perspectives (I might think that what distinguishes a great composer is how much money they make, or I might think it depends on how many people sing or hum their tunes, etc.) that choosing upon any specific objective criteria to support one's claim of "great" or "interesting" is a completely arbitrary and subjective choice. You are begging the question about how to choose what objective moral criteria matter in the first place. Since you have apparently agreed that an objective basis is required for all logical arguments, no rational debate can be held about how to choose what is moral in the first place before one can even get to any "objective" facts and statistics. Objective facts and statistics about what? You haven't said how we discern what is moral in the first place. Compare great composers? How do you identify someone who even qualifies as a candidate in the first place? You say "mozart", but by my standard (how many people hum their tunes?) mozart isn't even up for consideration. Where does your rational debate about locking up Jeffrey Dahmer begin? What objective criteria? His killing others? Why should I care about that? You haven't established that harming others or killing and eating them is immoral in the first place, so the objective facts about how many he killed and harmed, or how many societies have had similar rules, or how may people agree such actions are immoral are entirely irrelevant. If "greatness", how "interesting" something is, and morality are all subjective perspectives, you cannot get to an objective-criteria basis for any argument until you first explain why anyone should pick that particular basis. You leap over your begged questions and lack of foundation and land where you think people will just agree with you without ever questioning how you got there in the first place, or by what warrant you begin your arguments. Your arguments begin in the middle - they have no basis or foundation, and it seems you are oblivious to that fact. Yes, you can have rational debates with people that agree with you in the first place about what "greatness" or "morality" mean, but then the fundamental, de facto basis for your morality is nothing but consensus (since no one has established why the just-agreed-upon standard should be agreed upon), and using consensus as a basis for your morality is only going to blow up in your face as soon as you are faced with a consensus moral rule that you disagree with.William J Murray
September 4, 2011
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I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. Sure, if the billboard exists, then the probability of its existence is 1. That does not tell you anything about how the billboard got there, nor about whether what it says is true.Neil Rickert
September 3, 2011
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mike1962 at 32.1.2.2.1 "Now, is it possible that there is important information regarding conscious life on this planet that is being withheld from you that might make mitigate your judgement? I would say yes. And the point is, if Yahweh is real, you just not have a leg to stand on “morally”, even using your own morally as the criterion. So in the end, all this talk about your outrage about the slain babies is useless since you don’t know the extent of your ignorance about those involved." Yeah, Mark! You can point at those slaughtered babies laying in their pools of blood and say murdering babies is immoral and quote the Golden Rule and all that other atheistic clap-trap all day long, but let's see you prove to us that somewhere, somehow, there's not some kind of important information or fact or moral principal that no theist can quote or knows about or can even guess at that doesn't prove that killing babies is moral after all. Can you? Thought not! Yahweh rules!dmullenix
September 3, 2011
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Who writes the elementary moral test? Who grades it? Are the principles or rules you teach to a three-year-old the entirety of your morality, or are they a simplified version that teaches the child to err on the side of caution since they don't understand the full impact of their actions? We are the three-year-olds. We're not allowed to stab someone with sharp object because that's very bad. But is a small child entitled to judge a doctor for drawing a patient's blood or performing surgery? Admitting that we know relatively little is the first step. Or we can use ourselves as the standard by which to measure everyone else. I suspect that rejecting the former and choosing the latter is what turns many off from God.ScottAndrews
September 3, 2011
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Chris Doyle: "Mark, can you explain exactly how that quote from Leviticus encourages slavery as a morally good act?" Because it portrays God Almighty, supposedly the author of all morality and the very creator of good and evil as saying you can own slaves. If the Author of All Morality says you can do something, it's a reasonable conclusion that the action is moral.dmullenix
September 3, 2011
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If God, as he is portrayed in the Bible and in the operation of the Universe. was capable of passing even the most elementary moral tests (i.e. don't kill children), Christians and other religious people would proudly trumpet that fact. As it is, they're reduced to quoting Matthew 4:7 to us: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’ If He could PASS the test, you wouldn't be saying that!dmullenix
September 3, 2011
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11:35 AM
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The universe, with the exception of the denizens of the earth and probably a few other thinly scattered inhabited planets within it, is incapable of thought and morality. It cannot provide the moral principles that we need to live and work together as social animals. Religion has utterly failed in this respect. Find a list of murder rates by country and compare the figures to a list of religious enthusiasm by country and see how they track. The more religious the country, the more you want to stay the heck away from it. It's not atheists hijacking airliners and flying them into buildings and strapping explosives to their bodies and setting them off in crowded cafes. The people doing that are doing it for their Gods - the same Gods who allegedly command genocide and killing those who refuse to worship them. We're on our own when it comes to devising systems of morality, but it turns out not to be that hard a thing to do.dmullenix
September 3, 2011
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11:24 AM
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I didn't say Paul said slavery was impermissible. I said that Old Testament law and St Paul don't mix.Chris Doyle
September 2, 2011
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Here’s morality in a nutshell: What hurts or harms sentient organisms is bad. Deliberately or carelessly doing needless bad things is evil. You're irrationally borrowing your moral concepts from religion, Dmullenix. As an atheist, your starting point is: The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference. Now, kindly explain where morality fits into that unavoidable component of the atheistic worldview.Chris Doyle
September 2, 2011
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Dmullenix: see my reply to Mark at 31 to see why it is absurd for the examined to even try to mark the examiner. You're not qualified: no human is.Chris Doyle
September 2, 2011
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“What criteria do you use when assessing the moral judgements of a God and thus deciding which one to worship?” “The ones fed to me by my subconscious and by my reason.” That’s totally subjective. We’re looking for OBjective grounds for morality, grounds that don’t depend on how someone feels. See my reply to William Murray.dmullenix
September 2, 2011
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You lecture us about red herrings and strawmen soaked in ad hominems and here you are talking about pederasty in a thread about cosmological fine tuning!dmullenix
September 2, 2011
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Paul says it doesn’t apply to Christians? Read Philemon. It’s a letter from Paul to Philemon, a Christian. Paul was sending Philemon’s runaway slave, Onesimus back to him. It’s an elegant and well phrased letter. He urges Philemon to treat him well and maybe return him to Paul. But nowhere in that letter is there any hint that Christians can’t own slaves. If Paul believed that, he certainly would have reminded Philemon of it.dmullenix
September 2, 2011
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