Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

“The universe is too big, too old and too cruel”: three silly objections to cosmological fine-tuning (Part One)

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In previous articles, I have argued that even if our universe is part of some larger multiverse, we still have excellent scientific grounds for believing that our universe – and also the multiverse in which it is embedded – is fine-tuned to permit the possibility of life. Moreover, the only adequate explanation for the extraordinary degree of fine-tuning we observe in the cosmos is that it is the product of an Intelligence. That is the cosmological fine-tuning argument, in a nutshell. My articles can be viewed here:

So you think the multiverse refutes cosmological fine-tuning? Consider Arthur Rubinstein
Beauty and the multiverse
Why a multiverse would still need to be fine-tuned, in order to make baby universes

Scientific challenges to the cosmological fine-tuning argument can be ably rebutted, as this article by Dr. Robin Collins shows. However, there are three objections to fine-tuning which I keep hearing from atheists over and over again. Here they are:

1. If the universe was designed to support life, then why does it have to be so BIG, and why is it nearly everywhere hostile to life? Why are there so many stars, and why are so few orbited by life-bearing planets?

2. If the universe was designed to support life, then why does it have to be so OLD, and why was it devoid of life throughout most of its history? For instance, why did life on Earth only appear after 70% of the cosmos’s 13.7-billion-year history had already elapsed? And Why did human beings (genus Homo) only appear after 99.98% of the cosmos’s 13.7-billion-year history had already elapsed?

3. If the universe was designed to support life, then why does Nature have to be so CRUEL? Why did so many animals have to die – and why did so many species of animals have to go extinct (99% is the commonly quoted figure), in order to generate the world as we see it today? What a waste! And what about predation, parasitism, and animals that engage in practices such as serial murder and infant cannibalism?

In today’s post, I’m not going to attempt to provide any positive reasons why we should expect an intelligently designed universe to be big and old, and why we should not be too surprised if it contains a lot of suffering. I’ll talk about those reasons in my next post. What I’m going to do in this post is try to clear the air, and explain why I regard the foregoing objections to the cosmic fine-tuning argument as weak and inconclusive.

Here are seven points I’d like atheists who object to the cosmological fine-tuning argument to consider:

1. If you don’t like the universe that we live in, then the onus is on you to show that a better universe is physically possible, given a different set of laws and/or a different fundamental theory of physics. Only when you have done this are you entitled to make the argument that our universe is so poorly designed that no Intelligent Being could possibly have made it.

At this point, I expect to hear splutterings of protest: “But that’s not our problem. It’s God’s. Isn’t your God omnipotent? Can’t He make anything He likes – including a perfect universe?” Here’s my answer: “First, the cosmological fine-tuning argument claims to establish the existence of an Intelligent Designer, who may or may not be omnipotent. Second, even an omnipotent Being can only make things that can be coherently described. So what I want you to do is provide me with a physical model of your better universe, showing how its laws and fundamental theory of physics differ from those of our universe, and why these differences make it better. Until you can do that, you’d better get back to work.”

2. Imaginability doesn’t imply physical possibility. I can imagine a winged horse, but that doesn’t make it physically possible. The question still needs to be asked: “How would it fly?” I can also imagine a nicer universe where unpleasant things never happen, but I still have to ask myself: “What kind of scientific laws and what kind of fundamental theory would need to hold in that nicer universe, in order to prevent unpleasant things from happening?”

3. As Dr. Robin Collins has argued, the laws of our universe are extremely elegant, from a mathematical perspective. (See also my post, Beauty and the multiverse.) If there is an Intelligent Designer, He presumably favors mathematical elegance. However, even if a “nicer” universe proved to be physically possible, in a cosmos characterized by some other set of scientific laws and a different fundamental theory of physics, the scientific laws and fundamental theory of such a universe might not be anywhere near as mathematically elegant as those of the universe that we live in. The Intelligent Designer might not want to make a “nice”, pain-free universe, if doing so entails making a messy, inelegant universe.

4. If a Designer wanted to design a universe that was free from animal suffering (i.e. a world in which animals were able to avoid noxious stimuli, without the conscious feeling of pain), there are two ways in which He could accomplish this: He could either use basic, macro-level laws of Nature (e.g. “It is a law of Nature that no animal that is trapped in a forest fire shall suffer pain”) or micro-level laws (i.e. by making laws of Nature precluding those physical arrangements of matter in animals’ brain and nervous systems which correspond to pain).

The first option is incompatible with materialism. If you believe in the materialist doctrine of supervenience (that any differences between two animals’ mental states necessarily reflect an underlying physical difference between them), it automatically follows that if a trapped animal’s brain and nervous system instantiates a physical arrangement of matter which corresponds to pain, then that animal will suffer pain, period. No irreducible, top-down “macro-level” law can prevent that, in a materialistic universe. So if you’re asking the Designer to make a world where unpleasant or painful things never happen by simply decreeing this, then what you’re really asking for is a world in which animals’ minds cannot be described in materialistic terms. Are you sure you want that?

The second option is unwieldly. There are a vast number of possible physical arrangements of matter in animals’ brain and nervous systems which correspond to pain, and there is no single feature that they all possess in common, at the micro level. An Intelligent Designer would need to make a huge number of extra laws, in order to preclude each and every one of these physical arrangements. That in turn would make the laws of Nature a lot less elegant, when taken as a whole. The Intelligent Designer might not want to make such an aesthetically ugly universe.

Eliminating animal suffering might not be a wise thing to do, in any case. One could argue that the conscious experience of pain is, at least sometimes, biologically beneficial, since it subsequently leads to survival-promoting behavior: “Once bitten, twice shy.” (An automatic, unconscious response to noxious stimuli might achieve the same result, but perhaps not as effectively or reliably as conscious pain.) However, if the Designer is going to allow survival-promoting pain into His world, then He will have to allow the neural states corresponding to that pain. If He still wants to rule out pain that doesn’t promote survival, then He’s going to have to make funny, top-down “macro-level” laws to ensure this – for instance: “It is a law of nature that neural state X [which correspinds to pain in one’s right toe] is only allowed to exist if it benefits the animal biologically.” Note the reference to the whole animal here. You’re asking Mother Nature to check whether the pain would be biologically beneficial to the animal as a whole, before “deciding” whether to allow the animal to experience the feeling of pain or not. But that’s a “macro-level” law, and hence not the kind of law which any card-carrying materialist could consistently ask a Designer to implement.

5. Objections to fine-tuning are of no avail unless they are even more powerful than arguments for fine-tuning. I’d like to use a simple mathematical example to illustrate the point. (I’ve deliberately tried to keep this illustration as jargon-free – and Bayes-free- as possible, so that everyone can understand it.) Suppose, for argument’s sake, that the cosmic fine-tuning argument makes it 99.999999999999999999999 per cent likely (given our current knowledge of physics) that the universe had a Designer. Now suppose, on the other hand, that the vast size and extreme age of the universe, combined with the enormous wastage of animal life and the huge amount of suffering that has occurred during the Earth’s history, make it 99.999999 per cent likely (given our current scientific knowledge of what’s physically possible and what’s not) that a universe containing these features didn’t have a Designer. Given these figures, it would still be rational to accept the cosmic fine-tuning argument, and to believe that our universe had a Designer. Put simply: if someone offers me a 99.999999999999999999999 per cent airtight argument that there is an Intelligent Designer of Nature, and then someone else puts forward a 99.999999 per cent airtight argument that there isn’t an Intelligent Designer, I’m going to go with the first argument and distrust the second. Any sensible person would. Why? Because the likelihood that the first argument is wrong is orders of magnitude lower than the likelihood that the second argument is wrong. Putting it another way: the second argument is “leakier” than the first, so we shouldn’t trust it, if it appears to contradict the first.

6. For the umpteenth time, Intelligent Design theory says nothing about the moral character of the Designer. Even if an atheist could demonstrate beyond all doubt that no loving, personal Designer could have produced the kind of universe we live in, would that prove that there was no Designer? No. All it would show is that the Designer was unloving and/or impersonal – in which case, the logical thing to do (given the strength of the fine-tuning argument) would be to become a Deist. Of course, you might not like such an impersonal Deity – and naturally, it wouldn’t like you, either. But as a matter of scientific honesty, you would be bound to to acknowledge its existence, if that’s where the evidence led.

I’m genuinely curious as to why so few Intelligent Design critics have addressed the philosophy of Deism, and I can only put it down to pique. It’s as if the critics are saying, “Well, I don’t want anything to do with that kind of Deity, as it’s indifferent to suffering. Therefore, I refuse to even consider the possibility that it might exist.” When one puts it like that, it does seem a rather silly attitude to entertain, doesn’t it?

7. From time to time, I have noticed that some atheist critics of the cosmological fine-tuning argument make their case by attacking the God of the Bible. I have often wondered why they focus their attack on such a narrow target, as people of many different religions (and none) can still believe in some sort of God. I strongly suspect that the underlying logic is as follows:

(i) if the cosmological fine-tuning argument is true then there is a Transcendent Designer;

(ii) if there is a Transcendent Designer then it’s possible that this Designer is the God of the Bible;

(iii) but it is impossible that the God of the Bible could exist, because He is a “moral monster”;

(iv) hence, the cosmological fine-tuning argument is not true.

This is a pathological form of reasoning, since it is emotionally driven by a visceral dislike of the God of the Bible. Nevertheless, I believe this form of reasoning is quite common among atheists.

What’s wrong with the foregoing argument? (I shall assume for the purposes of the discussion below that step (i) is true.) At a cursory glance, the argument looks valid:

if A is true then B is true; if B is true then it is possible that C; but it is not possible that C; hence A is not true.

The argument is invalid, however, because it confuses epistemic possibility with real (ontological) possibility. If something is epistemically possible, then for all we know, it might be true. But if something is ontologically possible, then it could really happen. The two kinds of possibility are not the same, because we don’t always know enough to be sure about what could really happen.

Step (ii) of the foregoing argument relates to epistemic possibility, not ontological possibility. It does not say that there is a real possibility that the God of the Bible might exist; it simply says that for all we know, the Transcendent Designer might turn out to be the God the Bible.

Step (iii) of the argument, on the other hand, relates to ontological possibility. It amounts to the claim that since the God the Bible is morally absurd, in His dealings with human beings, no such Being could possibly exist, in reality.

Now, I’m not going to bother discussing the truth or falsity of step (iii) in the foregoing argument. All I intend to say in this post is that even if you believe it to be true, the argument above is an invalid, because the two kinds of possibility in steps (ii) and (iii) are not the same.

Indeed, if you were absolutely sure that step (iii) were true, then you would have to deny step (ii). In which case, the argument fails once again.

In short: attacking the cosmological fine-tuning argument by ridiculing the God of the Bible is a waste of time.

I would like to conclude by saying that atheists who object to the cosmological fine-tuning argument really need to do their homework. Let’s see your better alternative universe, and let’s see your scientific explanation of how it works.

Comments
Oh, all right Bill. I go for the Golden Rule, which predates Jesus by at least several centuries. A question for you: When God allegedly commands Moses, “Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately.” As In Numbers 31:17, what moral perspective do you judge the Biblical God by? Pardon me if I don’t turn my back on you.dmullenix
August 31, 2011
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Regarding Breivik. Is reminding us of a right-wing Christian who murdered five dozen liberal teenagers supposed to intimidate me? You’re from Jamaica originally, aren’t you? I vacationed in Ocho Rios a couple of decades ago and I remember the guide proudly telling us that Jamaica has more churches per capita than any other country in the world. Is this true? I also noticed that I couldn’t find a newspaper at the hotel we stayed at and an employee told me that the manager didn’t allow them to be sold there. When I found one downtown, I saw why. Would you like to comment on the murder rates for ultra-Christian Jamaica, excessively Christian America and Breivik's relatively non-Christian Norway? According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate the murder rates per 100,000 for the three countries are: Jamaica 60 per 100,000 US 5.0 per 100,000 Norway 0.6 per 100,000 Do you have any explanation for why ultra-religious Jamaica’s murder rate is 12 times higher than merely super religious America’s which in turn is 8 times higher than nearly atheistic Norway’s? I doubt if it’s guns. They’re nearly totally illegal in Jamaica and the US and Norway are both awash in firearms. I doubt it it’s poverty – Norway and America are about tied here. I doubt if it’s language or legal traditions. Jamaica and America are both scions of Great Britain. What differences are there between these three countries aside from their religiosity. I’m going to stop now before you heed the command of Jesus as quoted in Luke 19:27 and get a gun and come looking for me, but before I do I want to say that nobody on this blog whines about “oil of ad hominems”, “strawmen caricatures”, “distractive red herrings”, “willful misrepresentation, hostility and target-painting “ and “incendiary rhetoric” as much as you do and nobody holds a candle to you when it comes to indulging in those practices. F/N Luke 19:27 "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me."dmullenix
August 31, 2011
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Well, that’s a completely new use of the term “ad hominem” to me. I’ve always heard it was Latin for “to the man”, meaning attacking the arguer instead of his arguments. I don’t understand how the engineering in the Golden Gate Bridge works, at least in enough detail to build one, but the existence of the Golden Gate Bridge is a Proof by Demonstration that it is possible to build a bridge across the Golden Gate. Similarly, if Heaven exists, it is a proof that God can make a perfect environment for humans. If God made a universe with no plants or animals, there would be no humans either, since we aren’t minerals. Thank you for confirming that Behe said God made the Malaria parasite. Dr. Behe could probably use some reading comprehension lessons, since Darwin said, “I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent and omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living body of caterpillars.” The operative words are “beneficent” and “omnipotent”. Darwin was hardly squeamish about wasps and caterpillars. He made his living cutting them up to see what was inside. In a similar vein, a beneficent and omnipotent Designer can’t blame the Devil for the state of the universe, since He, by the definition of “omnipotent” has the power to stop him. Finally, saying “The ancestors of humans acquired the parasite 2.5 million years ago – very close to the time when Homo first appeared.” Immediately makes me think of the ID claims for front loading. “Once again, you appeal to “Christian and Jewish orthodoxy”. Intelligent Design theory as such doesn’t assume the truth of either orthodoxy, although there happen to be many Christians and Jews who support ID.” ID is Paley poorly re-written. Of all the ID supporters I’ve ever heard of, only two don’t claim to be Christians, Jews or Muslims. One was such an egomaniac that he got booted from this blog and the other has a really bad case of William F. Buckley envy. Both claimed to be agnostic, but anybody can be an agnostic, even myself and the Pope. Every other ID advocate I’ve ever met or heard of is a believer and appears to support the theory because the theory supports their religion. ALL of the ID funders I’ve ever heard of are hard core conservative Christians. So I don’t feel out of place referring to religion when talking of ID. I’ll stand by my fine tuning math. Dr. Sheldon only “escapes” it by diving into Hugh Everett’s Many World’s theory which has nothing to do with the Multiverse theory. I’ll let Roger Penrose concentrate on looking for the mind in his microtubules. When it comes to cosmology, I’m a layman and I will go with the professional physicists. 5. Atheists have the Bible and God thrown at them constantly. Many of them have the silly notion that if they point out the yawning logical and moral sinkholes in the Bible and its description of God, believers will suddenly see the light. This never works, but we keep trying. 6. Why wouldn’t you expect laws of nature in a materialistic universe? I can see where most of them would be chaotic, but ALL? Most improbable. “By the way, there about 8.7 million species of creatures living on this planet. Of these, no more than 15,000 species (mammals and birds) are sentient. That’s 0.2%. Of these, the vast majority, at any given time, are not in a state of extreme pain. If all these creatures had a Designer, I’d hardly call Him a monster.” "Sentient" is not the same as "conscious" or "self-conscious". If you can feel pain, you're sentient and if anybody thinks reptiles don't feel pain, hit one's paw with a hammer. (Pleae don't really do this experiment!) I’m going to just note that every single member of every single species eventually dies and then try to forget that you wrote that.dmullenix
August 31, 2011
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So you have come down on the side of "X is good because God says it is good". He sets the rules. Now consider this. There are some places in the Bible where it appears to condone slavery. I know this is open to interpretation - but most Christians feel a need to reinterpret this or see it in the context of the time. My question is why do they feel the need to do this? No one feels the need to reinterpret "thou shalt not kill" in the context of times. What criterion are theists using that stops them just saying - slavery is in the Bible so it is good.markf
August 31, 2011
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MF: I notice you continue the ignore policy, in the teeth of the next step, circulation of targetting photos. I have asked you to respond to the triggering issue in 19.2.2 above, kindly do so. On the matter in hand, you now point to an innate moralising drive, but still have yet to address the central issue: the objectivity of morality, on what grounds. Yes, morality is innate, we are bound by inescapable moral law. So, whence that law, what meaneth it for us, and where do we go from here? In particular, what is a worldview foundational IS that can bear the weight of OUGHT in the teeth of the sort of Nazi-like nihilsm and sadism that WJM highlights. Not to mention the sort of thuggery that is now beginning to lay siege to UD. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 31, 2011
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F/N: I have pointed out the emerging next step courtesy B4U-ACT, 26.1.1 above, in response to Paragwinn.kairosfocus
August 31, 2011
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I don’t go with “might makes right”dmullenix
August 31, 2011
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Paragwinn, Have you read the comments and onward linked at 19.1 and 19.1.1 above? Have you looked in the public lecture that calls for education and advocacy in a community based context that stresses participation and sustainable development -- did you observe the thinly veiled fictionalised composite Portview [= Portmore + Harbour View, with inputs from several other similar cases across the Caribbean] case study? Have you at least skimmed through the actual national energy policy? Did you notice the centrality of the synthesis of the Golden Rule, the Categorical Imperative and a modified version of Gro Harlem Bruntland's Sustainable Development principle? Do click on the links, and see if you find in the above and onward linked anything above and beyond a call for communitarian, democratic reformation on a call to repentance; similar to the peaceful, public advocacy based democratising and reformation movements sparked and/or led by Wilberforce in C18 - 19, against the slave trade [the deliberately prioritised low-hanging fruit], slavery and a host of other ills that ran in parallel with the Wesley-Whitefield sparked spiritual and moral Awakening. Then, contrast what I was reading overnight from Les Kinsolving, on a recent conference in Baltimore -- B4U-ACT (as in, compare ACT-UP) -- the next step in the amoralistic agenda (I guess it has been cropping up enough in the porn to begin to benumb consciences through addiction, so it can now begin to be publicly pushed):
The Baltimore Sun, Washington Post and New York Times had no coverage of this event, which was attended by a number of admitted pedophiles – or, as this conference re-labeled them, "minor-attracted persons." . . . . Among "highlights" of this conference, as reported by Barber and Reisman:
Pedophiles are "unfairly stigmatized and demonized" by society. "Anglo-Americans' standard on age of consent is new (and 'puritanical'). In Europe, it was always set at 10 or 12. Ages of consent beyond that are relatively new and very strange, especially for boys. They've always been able to have sex at any age." "An adult's desire to have sex with children is 'normative.'" Our society should "maximize individual liberty. We have a highly moralistic society that is not consistent with liberty." Dr. Fred Berlin acknowledged that it was political activism, similar to that witnessed at the conference, rather than scientific considerations that successfully led to the declassification of homosexuality as a mental disorder. "The majority of pedophiles are gentle and rational." The diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders should "focus on the needs" of the pedophile, and should have "a minimal focus on social control," rather than obsessing about "the need to protect children." Self-described "gay activist" and speaker Jacob Breslow said that children can properly be "the object of our attention." He further objectified children, suggesting that pedophiles needn't gain consent from a child to have sex with "it" any more than we need consent from a shoe to wear it. He then used graphic, slang language to favorably describe the act of climaxing . . . "on or with" a child. No one in attendance objected to this explicit depiction of child sexual assault . . . .
"B4U-ACT is the driving force behind this movement. It's goal is to reconceptualize our thinking about what they politely call 'minority-attracted persons.' If they had it their way, sex between adults and minors would no longer be taboo, and pedophilia would no longer be listed as a mental illness by the American Psychiatric Association." That there has been no coverage of B4U-ACT in the Baltimore Sun, the Washington Post and the New York Times attests not only to their immorality, but also to their growing loss of subscribers.
Do you see where our civilisation is headed if it is left in the hands of such? It is time to wake up, understand the driving force behind the rising amorality and agendas to literally de-moralise our civilisation through reducing morality to a matter of views and feelings that can then be manipulated by clever advocates [demonising and targetting those who dare object -- I notice your silence in the face of tactics that amount to: we know who you are, where you are, who you care fr, and here's the targetting photo . . . ], publicly expose the moral and intellectual bankruptcy of the underlying evolutionary materialism, and also take heed to the urgency of reformation. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 31, 2011
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Hi Mark, And it appears as though you can't have a 25.1.1.1.3 either! If God exists, and the Book of Scripture (in the widest sense of that term) has Divine authorship then the Moral Law was given to us by God. Given these premises, asking whether or not the Moral Law is really moral is the same as asking whether or not the Football Association Rules and Regulations really are football. The Law belongs to the Law-giver.Chris Doyle
August 31, 2011
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Chris (Apparently it is not possible to have a 25.1.1.1.1.1! So this is my reply to your 25.1.1.1.1)
You can’t, Mark. The Moral Law is only moral and binding if there really is a God out there who we will answer to on Judgment Day.
Even if there is an ultimate law enforcement agency out there - that doesn't make the law right. You can objectively determine if an action conforms to the "moral law". But you cannot objectively determine if the "moral law" is moral.markf
August 31, 2011
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You can't, Mark. The Moral Law is only moral and binding if there really is a God out there who we will answer to on Judgment Day. Atheists - by definition - will never accept this so have no rational basis to be bound by the Moral Law (even though many will still irrationally follow it anyway thanks to the enduring and positive influence of religion).Chris Doyle
August 31, 2011
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But my question is - how do you prove that the Moral Law is moral to an atheist?markf
August 30, 2011
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William I wrote a reply last night which seems to have disappeared.  So I will try again – but may give up if I keep losing replies.
And so, as long as someone feels strongly that torturing infants for personal pleasure is moral, and putting cigarettes out on the flesh of girl scouts they have chained up in the basement is moral, and systematically exterminating Jews is moral, then it is moral because morality is, as you say, in the end, subjective. Right?
No this does not follow.  That’s like saying if someone strongly believes there is no value in pursuing knowledge for its own sake then there is not value in pursuing knowledge for its own sake and we should stop funding astronomy.  Remember what subjective means.  If there is someone who really believes these things are moral then it is moral for that person – but not for you or me or the vast majority of people.  There are people who have moral feelings that are completely out of kilter with most others.  We typically call them psychopaths and regard them as mad.  But we don’t have an objective way of proving them wrong. Do you?
In that case, markf, why bother with morality at all? Why not just dispense with it and do whatever you feel like doing, as long as you can get away with it?
Because I care about others. It is built into me, as it is built into you. Morality isn’t something you choose to have or not.  It is basic human drive like the need to eat.  It is like saying lets dispense with hunger.  And just as with hunger there are a few people whose hunger is completely abnormal.  Only having abnormal moral passions doesn’t just affect them – by its nature it effects others.markf
August 30, 2011
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In what form would "decisive, grimly determined resolute, corrective action" take? Any specifics?paragwinn
August 30, 2011
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Markf: You say:
There is no clinching objective standard to turn to. It is my firm belief that in the end morality is also subjective.
And so, as long as someone feels strongly that torturing infants for personal pleasure is moral, and putting cigarettes out on the flesh of girl scouts they have chained up in the basement is moral, and systematically exterminating Jews is moral, then it is moral because morality is, as you say, in the end, subjective. Right? In that case, markf, why bother with morality at all? Why not just dispense with it and do whatever you feel like doing, as long as you can get away with it?William J Murray
August 30, 2011
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F/N: Let us hear Plato again, in The Laws, Bk X, 2350 years ago. Perhaps, this time, we will learn from history before we have to repeat its worst chapters yet again: ____________ >>[[The avant garde philosophers, teachers and artists c. 400 BC] say that the greatest and fairest things are the work of nature and of chance, the lesser of art [[ i.e. techne], which, receiving from nature the greater and primeval creations, moulds and fashions all those lesser works which are generally termed artificial . . . The elements are severally moved by chance and some inherent force according to certain affinities among them-of hot with cold, or of dry with moist, or of soft with hard, and according to all the other accidental admixtures of opposites which have been formed by necessity. After this fashion and in this manner the whole heaven has been created, and all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only . . . . [[T]hese people would say that the Gods exist not by nature, but by art, and by the laws of states, which are different in different places, according to the agreement of those who make them; and that the honourable is one thing by nature and another thing by law, and that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.- [[Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT.] These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might [[ Evolutionary materialism leads to the promotion of amorality], and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [[Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality "naturally" leads to continual contentions and power struggles; cf. dramatisation here], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is, to live in real dominion over others [[such amoral factions, if they gain power, "naturally" tend towards ruthless tyranny; here, too, Plato hints at the career of Alcibiades], and not in legal subjection to them . . . >> _____________ The real "dominionism," folks. The evolutionary materialists, from 400 BC on, have always begun with chaos in the heavens that is imagined to somehow give rise to the things that are ordered, and this leads them to radical relativism and might makes "right" amorality. Thence come factions and from factions come chaos in the community, and tyranny. But always, it is ever so hard to believe that things are that bad in our time and place, until the horrors are let lose with full force. (How I remember the shock of that morning in May 1980 when we learned of a dance shot up with M-16 automatic rifles that had come out of nowhere, funded doubtless by the illicit drugs trade, and well do I remember studying thermodynamics some nights later, only to hear away in the distance bang, bang then pop-pop-pop-pop . . . , like ten pops per second in two bursts. A brave policeman cut down. All within the same cluster of weeks in which I lost my "aunt" to murder on a radical front organisation's slander. Believe me, when things go bad like that, when the demons are let loose, events can go bad so fast you will be like one caught up in a whirlwind. That terrible weekend of May 10, 1940 must have been much like that for Europe.) But, we had better believe the magnitude of the danger in front of us, the depth of the moral bankruptcy and anarchy that have been revealed before our watching eyes and take decisive, grimly determined resolute, corrective action. Now. Before it is horribly, bloodily too late. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 30, 2011
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Sorry, but your response hasn't helped me sort out an answer. From reading these articles I must conclude that ID does not claim there must be an irreducible final cause, only that there may be such a terminus. So should I understand that ID theory leaves open the possibility of the alternative, materialism? Are there other possibilities? If not, then why use the word "may"? On a related note, I think it would be more accurate to say that materialism rejects the orthodox Christian view of God as an "irreducible final causal explanation," but not First Cause per se:
Materialism, which professes to find in matter its own cause and explanation, may go farther, and positively exclude the existence of any spiritual cause. - The Catholic Encyclopedia
Furthermore, materialism itself does not reject a concept of god in general, though materialists often do:
It does not necessarily follow, because the natural cognoscibility of a personal First Cause is denied, that His existence is called in question: nor, when matter is called upon to explain itself, that God is critically denied... In the eighteenth century, and especially in France, the doctrines of materialism were spread broadcast by the Encyclopedists. La Mettrie, Holbach, Fererbach, and Fleurens are usually classed among the foremost materialistic atheists of the period. Voltaire, on the contrary, while undoubtedly helping on the cause of practical atheism, distinctly held its theoretic contrary. He, as well as Rousseau, was a deist. Comte, it will be remembered, refused to be called an atheist. In the last century Thomas Huxley, Charles Darwin, and Herbert Spencer, with others of the evolutionistic school of philosophy, were, quite erroneously, charged with positive atheism.
rhampton7
August 30, 2011
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Onlookers:
[MF,25.1: It is my firm belief that in the end morality is . . . subjective. We have firmly held opinions on what is right and what is wrong and can bring reasons to bear and make rational arguments – but underlying it will be commonly held but subjective attitudes.
This is unfortunately, little more than a nicely phrased way of saying that evolutionary materialism is amoral and radically subjectivist. On such amoral worldview premises, morality can ONLY be subjective (anything dealing with us as subjects is ALSO subject-ive . . . ), without any real objective warrant. So, as Plato warned so long ago, for such IT IS MIGHT MAKES "RIGHT," MIGHT OF FORCE OR MIGHT OF MANIPULATION. And yet, it is plain -- just take nihilists for a capital case -- that a lot of times our feelings on moral matters are wrong, so we need to recongise that we are under the governance of principles that transcend our impulses, desires and perceptions. In my case, some one out there is targetting me, is falsely accusing me of child abuse, is saying menacingly "we know you, we know where you are, we know those you care for," and is now backing this up by posting pictures -- talk about targetting! And, with further false accusations. Someone who was coddled at MF's site, and not restrained before he went utterly out of control. At the same time, we see outright declarations that the God of the Bible is a moral monster, and those who follow him are ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked would-be tyrannical Christo-fascist theocrats and child abusers. Plainly, some one out there -- Dawkins and ilk -- thinks he can smear people and build up morally driven rage against them by appealing to precisely the moral absolutes that he denies when they would cut in ways that he does not want. The hypocrisy would be amusingly revealing, if it were not so dangerous. For that sort of incendiary language is feeding the fever swamps that allow the unhinged to tank up on rage and a sense of permission to act out their hostility on the scapegoated. The end of such a pattern is predictable on all too much history: violence and blood as ruthless nihilist factions vie for power, and worse, if they gain it. There is a name for a world like that, where each does as he pleases so long as he thinks he is powerful enough to get away with it, regardless of the blatant inconsistency. Hell. Just ask the ghosts of 100 million victims of evolutionary materialist tyrannies over the past 100 years. In short, we have again reached reductio ad absurdum and bankruptcy for evolutionary materialism, this time on the moral side. Let us take grim warning, if we care for our civilisation; or even just our families and communities. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 30, 2011
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"Someone can say “I find your framework leads to morally unacceptable consequences” and there is no way to prove that person wrong." This is only the case if atheism is true. On the other hand, if there really is a God then anyone who rejects the 100% objectively true Moral Law (ie. Thou Shalt Not Kill, Thou Shalt Not Steal) would be 100% objectively wrong in the same way as denying that 2+2=4 is indisputable false.Chris Doyle
August 30, 2011
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William I am sorry. I got the impression you had not taken my comment seriously. Perhaps it was my fault for not explaining it very well. Let me try again. That means a rather longer comment for which I apologise. I propose that because an issue is subjective it does not entail that people's opinions are: a)trivial b)unjustified c)have no rational basis We often form opinions which are very important for us and others. And those opinions can be based on reasons and reasoning while still remaining subjective. I offered films as a lightweight example but there are many others. A more solid example is whether it is worth spending billions on knowledge for its own sake as in much of astronomy (assuming it is unlikely to bring utilitarian benefits). We can offer all sorts of reasons for our opinion that knowledge is worth it for its own sake and this can be based on detailed and correct reasoning (either way). But in the end our opinion will be based on our subjective feelings about the value of knowledge. There is no clinching objective standard to turn to. It is my firm belief that in the end morality is also subjective. We have firmly held opinions on what is right and what is wrong and can bring reasons to bear and make rational arguments - but underlying it will be commonly held but subjective attitudes. Many people feel the need for objective justifications ranging from religion to the golden rule. However, any of those objective justifications can also be assessed subjectively. Someone can say "I find your framework leads to morally unacceptable consequences" and there is no way to prove that person wrong.markf
August 30, 2011
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Markf: It seems to me that I have been quite respectful. On what grounds do you assert the contrary?William J Murray
August 30, 2011
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William - are you prepared to continue this discussion on the basis of mutual respect? If so, I will give it my best shot. Otherwise let's not waste each others time. Markmarkf
August 30, 2011
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Apparently, to the materialist, "it seems to me" = "rational basis", and "non-trivial" = "subjective taste in movies". Biological automatons say the darnedest things!William J Murray
August 30, 2011
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Onlookers (And MF): Let us examine MF's non-theistic morality from 19.2 above: ____________ >> But if you really want a non-theist view. 1) Most of the actions/attitudes that are attributed to the Christian God seem OK to me – but some seem morally wrong. a --> Is such "seeming" a matter of one's taste and 0references as programmed by whatever forces of chance and necessity have formed one in a world in which there is no IS that can ground OUGHT. or is that seems an acknowledgement that morality is objective. b --> Have you taken time to examine careful and responsible analyses of the data -- and what is your response as one trained in philosophy in light of the evidence and arguments [e.g. cf here etc], or are you simply echoing superficial views and talking points of objectors who have not seriously done their homework? 2) This my subjective feeling about the rightness of those actions. c --> This is subjective, so are your views well-grounded, on what basis? 3) Subjective is not the same as “trivial” or “unjustified” or “lacking a rational basis”. d --> So, you now have a duty of providing responsible warrant, or at least linking to a serious presentation. Can you do this? For example, if you find a film funny and I find it boring – that is presumably subjective. However, we will both have justifications for our view and if are committed to go to see the same film then our view is not trivial. e --> You have picked an utterly trivial and morally irrelevant comparison, on the level of liking or disliking prunes; not something that goes to the question whether there is a credible worldview foundational IS that can bear the weight of OUGHT, whether or no I agree or feel like it. f --> For instance, is it right or wrong to take a newborn infant and place it in the white-hot arms of an image of Molech, in order to gain the favour of that ANE "god"? Why or why not? g --> And, if you confront an aggressive and powerful, militarily threatening culture that says yes to that sort of thing, what do you do? (Even, as, what do you do about what Libya or Syria or Iran were doing in the face of peaceful protests against tyrannical practice of ruling elites?) h --> On what grounds, beyond mere we agree to, or, we have bigger guns? i --> Or taking a film, in the 1970's Deep Throat was supposedly the first porno flick to be shown generally in theatres. The objections were not on like/dislike but right/wrong. Latterly backed up by Linda Loveleace the "porn star" saying that in watching that film you were watching her being raped, with guns and fists either right there or close to hand. Was it right to show this film in theatres, and if the testimony before the US Congress is accurate [it seems so], then was what was done right or wrong enough that legal action should be taken, why or why not? j --> In short, your position as stated comes across as radical relativism rooted in an inherently amoral worldview of evolutionary materialism, that implies that "justification" of moral views has no objectivity that can lead to an intersubjective consensus that is warranted on facts, logic and reasonable, and agreeable starting point assumptions; rather than might makes right. Do you have an answer, not to whether individual acts may be seen by some people as wrong, but whether they are objectively wrong, and on what grounds? I have lost count of the number of times I have tried to explain this in different ways. I never seem to succeed – but maybe one day k --> if the above is a summary of how you have tried to explain, maybe that is why it has been seen as not good enough, in the teeth of what is really on the table. >> ____________ Onlookers, contrast again what I remarked on and linked at 19.1 and 19.1.1 above, earlier this morning. Reflect on Plato's warning here (and on his onward inference from the self to the foundation of the cosmos), then ponder on how central moral issues are to how we govern ourselves, ground law and regulate communities, then ask you what is the responsible thing to do as a civilisation on the subject of grounding morality. Take time onwards to ponder Provine's remark here in the 1998 Darwin Day celebrations in U Tenn:
Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent . . . . The first 4 implications are so obvious to modern naturalistic evolutionists that I will spend little time defending them. Human free will, however, is another matter. Even evolutionists have trouble swallowing that implication. I will argue that humans are locally determined systems that make choices. They have, however, no free will . . .
Observe the critique of this speech here:
Provine’s . . . [[address] centered on his fifth statement regarding human free will. Prior to delving into the “meat” of his message, however, he noted: “The first 4 implications are so obvious to modern naturalistic evolutionists that I will spend little time defending them” (Provine, 1998). It is clear then, from Provine’s comments, that he believes naturalistic evolution has no way to produce an “ultimate foundation for ethics.” And it is equally as clear that this sentiment was so apparent to “modern naturalistic evolutionists” that Mr. Provine did not feel it even needed to be defended . . . . [[However, i]f it is true that naturalistic evolution cannot provide an ultimate foundation for determining the difference between actions that are right and ones that are wrong, then the door is wide open for subjective speculation about all human behavior. [[Rape and Evolution, Apologetics Press, 2005.]
Reflect on the significance of freedom to choose for moral government of ourselves and our communities, as well as rationality in thought. Ask MF for me -- he will not answer me directly -- how he grounds morality and the credibility of the mind, in light of the issue of freedom of will and thought. Do you see why a great many people are deeply concerned about what is being done and said at worldviews level in the name of science and science education? GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 30, 2011
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Neil, you have reasoned away all rationality. If you find a billboard in the middle of a desert saying Accept ID. Dembski is right you can say the probability of its existence is 1. If, on the other hand, you insist that the billboard can exist solely due to a series of random events without design being necessary, well, you've become a stereotype of an American academic.tribune7
August 30, 2011
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F/N: cf here above for some links and a brief note on principles.kairosfocus
August 30, 2011
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Onlookers, MF's points will be addressed point by point, DV later, but in the meanwhile cf here on above -- as usual ignored by him -- for a framework of thought that anticipates them. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 30, 2011
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oops, sent by mistake, incomplete, cf belowkairosfocus
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Mr MarkF: I know that on one excuse or another you studiously ignore what I have to say. But, as a first note, before dealing later on with specifics, YOU SHOULD KNOW THAT THIS THREAD'S DISCUSSION IS IN THE DIRECT CONTEXT OF FURTHER TARGET PAINTING BEHAVIOUR BY SOMEONE WHO WAS BASED AT YOUR BLOG AS A REGULAR COMMENTER, AND WHO WENT ON TO FOUND THE HATE BLOG THAT HAS AGAIN COME UP FOR CONCERN HERE AT UD. I think that puts a particular burden on those on you4r side of the ID debate, to police those who are on the unhinged extremism side. For they are unwilling to listen to correction from those on our side. Kindly cf the discussion overnight from Bantay's warning here at 13 above. (Photographs have actually been posted.) Could you let us know what steps you are talking to make it clear that in the aftermath of Breivik, there is a zero tolerance policy for hostile outing tactics, implicit or explicit threats especially to innocent third parties [as in families etc] target-painting behaviour and related incivility? GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 30, 2011
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Mr MarkF: I know that on one excuse or another you studiously ignore what I have to say. But, as a first note, before dealing later on with specifics, YOU SHOULD KNOW THAT THIS THREAD'S DISCUSSION IS IN THE DIRECT CONTEXT OF FURTHER TARGET PAINTING BEHAVIOUR BY . I think that puts a particular burden on those on you4r side of the ID debate, to police those who are on the unhinged extremism side. For they are unwilling to listen to correction from those on our side. Kindly cf the discussion overnight from Bantay's warning here at 13 above. (Photographs have actually been posted.) Could you let us know what steps you are talking to make it clear that in the aftermath of Breivik, there is a zero tolerance policy for hostile outing tactics, implicit or explicit threats especially to innocent third parties [as in families etc] target-painting behaviour and related incivility? GEM of TKIkairosfocus
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