Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

“The universe is too big, too old and too cruel”: three silly objections to cosmological fine-tuning (Part One)

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

In previous articles, I have argued that even if our universe is part of some larger multiverse, we still have excellent scientific grounds for believing that our universe – and also the multiverse in which it is embedded – is fine-tuned to permit the possibility of life. Moreover, the only adequate explanation for the extraordinary degree of fine-tuning we observe in the cosmos is that it is the product of an Intelligence. That is the cosmological fine-tuning argument, in a nutshell. My articles can be viewed here:

So you think the multiverse refutes cosmological fine-tuning? Consider Arthur Rubinstein
Beauty and the multiverse
Why a multiverse would still need to be fine-tuned, in order to make baby universes

Scientific challenges to the cosmological fine-tuning argument can be ably rebutted, as this article by Dr. Robin Collins shows. However, there are three objections to fine-tuning which I keep hearing from atheists over and over again. Here they are:

1. If the universe was designed to support life, then why does it have to be so BIG, and why is it nearly everywhere hostile to life? Why are there so many stars, and why are so few orbited by life-bearing planets?

2. If the universe was designed to support life, then why does it have to be so OLD, and why was it devoid of life throughout most of its history? For instance, why did life on Earth only appear after 70% of the cosmos’s 13.7-billion-year history had already elapsed? And Why did human beings (genus Homo) only appear after 99.98% of the cosmos’s 13.7-billion-year history had already elapsed?

3. If the universe was designed to support life, then why does Nature have to be so CRUEL? Why did so many animals have to die – and why did so many species of animals have to go extinct (99% is the commonly quoted figure), in order to generate the world as we see it today? What a waste! And what about predation, parasitism, and animals that engage in practices such as serial murder and infant cannibalism?

In today’s post, I’m not going to attempt to provide any positive reasons why we should expect an intelligently designed universe to be big and old, and why we should not be too surprised if it contains a lot of suffering. I’ll talk about those reasons in my next post. What I’m going to do in this post is try to clear the air, and explain why I regard the foregoing objections to the cosmic fine-tuning argument as weak and inconclusive.

Here are seven points I’d like atheists who object to the cosmological fine-tuning argument to consider:

1. If you don’t like the universe that we live in, then the onus is on you to show that a better universe is physically possible, given a different set of laws and/or a different fundamental theory of physics. Only when you have done this are you entitled to make the argument that our universe is so poorly designed that no Intelligent Being could possibly have made it.

At this point, I expect to hear splutterings of protest: “But that’s not our problem. It’s God’s. Isn’t your God omnipotent? Can’t He make anything He likes – including a perfect universe?” Here’s my answer: “First, the cosmological fine-tuning argument claims to establish the existence of an Intelligent Designer, who may or may not be omnipotent. Second, even an omnipotent Being can only make things that can be coherently described. So what I want you to do is provide me with a physical model of your better universe, showing how its laws and fundamental theory of physics differ from those of our universe, and why these differences make it better. Until you can do that, you’d better get back to work.”

2. Imaginability doesn’t imply physical possibility. I can imagine a winged horse, but that doesn’t make it physically possible. The question still needs to be asked: “How would it fly?” I can also imagine a nicer universe where unpleasant things never happen, but I still have to ask myself: “What kind of scientific laws and what kind of fundamental theory would need to hold in that nicer universe, in order to prevent unpleasant things from happening?”

3. As Dr. Robin Collins has argued, the laws of our universe are extremely elegant, from a mathematical perspective. (See also my post, Beauty and the multiverse.) If there is an Intelligent Designer, He presumably favors mathematical elegance. However, even if a “nicer” universe proved to be physically possible, in a cosmos characterized by some other set of scientific laws and a different fundamental theory of physics, the scientific laws and fundamental theory of such a universe might not be anywhere near as mathematically elegant as those of the universe that we live in. The Intelligent Designer might not want to make a “nice”, pain-free universe, if doing so entails making a messy, inelegant universe.

4. If a Designer wanted to design a universe that was free from animal suffering (i.e. a world in which animals were able to avoid noxious stimuli, without the conscious feeling of pain), there are two ways in which He could accomplish this: He could either use basic, macro-level laws of Nature (e.g. “It is a law of Nature that no animal that is trapped in a forest fire shall suffer pain”) or micro-level laws (i.e. by making laws of Nature precluding those physical arrangements of matter in animals’ brain and nervous systems which correspond to pain).

The first option is incompatible with materialism. If you believe in the materialist doctrine of supervenience (that any differences between two animals’ mental states necessarily reflect an underlying physical difference between them), it automatically follows that if a trapped animal’s brain and nervous system instantiates a physical arrangement of matter which corresponds to pain, then that animal will suffer pain, period. No irreducible, top-down “macro-level” law can prevent that, in a materialistic universe. So if you’re asking the Designer to make a world where unpleasant or painful things never happen by simply decreeing this, then what you’re really asking for is a world in which animals’ minds cannot be described in materialistic terms. Are you sure you want that?

The second option is unwieldly. There are a vast number of possible physical arrangements of matter in animals’ brain and nervous systems which correspond to pain, and there is no single feature that they all possess in common, at the micro level. An Intelligent Designer would need to make a huge number of extra laws, in order to preclude each and every one of these physical arrangements. That in turn would make the laws of Nature a lot less elegant, when taken as a whole. The Intelligent Designer might not want to make such an aesthetically ugly universe.

Eliminating animal suffering might not be a wise thing to do, in any case. One could argue that the conscious experience of pain is, at least sometimes, biologically beneficial, since it subsequently leads to survival-promoting behavior: “Once bitten, twice shy.” (An automatic, unconscious response to noxious stimuli might achieve the same result, but perhaps not as effectively or reliably as conscious pain.) However, if the Designer is going to allow survival-promoting pain into His world, then He will have to allow the neural states corresponding to that pain. If He still wants to rule out pain that doesn’t promote survival, then He’s going to have to make funny, top-down “macro-level” laws to ensure this – for instance: “It is a law of nature that neural state X [which correspinds to pain in one’s right toe] is only allowed to exist if it benefits the animal biologically.” Note the reference to the whole animal here. You’re asking Mother Nature to check whether the pain would be biologically beneficial to the animal as a whole, before “deciding” whether to allow the animal to experience the feeling of pain or not. But that’s a “macro-level” law, and hence not the kind of law which any card-carrying materialist could consistently ask a Designer to implement.

5. Objections to fine-tuning are of no avail unless they are even more powerful than arguments for fine-tuning. I’d like to use a simple mathematical example to illustrate the point. (I’ve deliberately tried to keep this illustration as jargon-free – and Bayes-free- as possible, so that everyone can understand it.) Suppose, for argument’s sake, that the cosmic fine-tuning argument makes it 99.999999999999999999999 per cent likely (given our current knowledge of physics) that the universe had a Designer. Now suppose, on the other hand, that the vast size and extreme age of the universe, combined with the enormous wastage of animal life and the huge amount of suffering that has occurred during the Earth’s history, make it 99.999999 per cent likely (given our current scientific knowledge of what’s physically possible and what’s not) that a universe containing these features didn’t have a Designer. Given these figures, it would still be rational to accept the cosmic fine-tuning argument, and to believe that our universe had a Designer. Put simply: if someone offers me a 99.999999999999999999999 per cent airtight argument that there is an Intelligent Designer of Nature, and then someone else puts forward a 99.999999 per cent airtight argument that there isn’t an Intelligent Designer, I’m going to go with the first argument and distrust the second. Any sensible person would. Why? Because the likelihood that the first argument is wrong is orders of magnitude lower than the likelihood that the second argument is wrong. Putting it another way: the second argument is “leakier” than the first, so we shouldn’t trust it, if it appears to contradict the first.

6. For the umpteenth time, Intelligent Design theory says nothing about the moral character of the Designer. Even if an atheist could demonstrate beyond all doubt that no loving, personal Designer could have produced the kind of universe we live in, would that prove that there was no Designer? No. All it would show is that the Designer was unloving and/or impersonal – in which case, the logical thing to do (given the strength of the fine-tuning argument) would be to become a Deist. Of course, you might not like such an impersonal Deity – and naturally, it wouldn’t like you, either. But as a matter of scientific honesty, you would be bound to to acknowledge its existence, if that’s where the evidence led.

I’m genuinely curious as to why so few Intelligent Design critics have addressed the philosophy of Deism, and I can only put it down to pique. It’s as if the critics are saying, “Well, I don’t want anything to do with that kind of Deity, as it’s indifferent to suffering. Therefore, I refuse to even consider the possibility that it might exist.” When one puts it like that, it does seem a rather silly attitude to entertain, doesn’t it?

7. From time to time, I have noticed that some atheist critics of the cosmological fine-tuning argument make their case by attacking the God of the Bible. I have often wondered why they focus their attack on such a narrow target, as people of many different religions (and none) can still believe in some sort of God. I strongly suspect that the underlying logic is as follows:

(i) if the cosmological fine-tuning argument is true then there is a Transcendent Designer;

(ii) if there is a Transcendent Designer then it’s possible that this Designer is the God of the Bible;

(iii) but it is impossible that the God of the Bible could exist, because He is a “moral monster”;

(iv) hence, the cosmological fine-tuning argument is not true.

This is a pathological form of reasoning, since it is emotionally driven by a visceral dislike of the God of the Bible. Nevertheless, I believe this form of reasoning is quite common among atheists.

What’s wrong with the foregoing argument? (I shall assume for the purposes of the discussion below that step (i) is true.) At a cursory glance, the argument looks valid:

if A is true then B is true; if B is true then it is possible that C; but it is not possible that C; hence A is not true.

The argument is invalid, however, because it confuses epistemic possibility with real (ontological) possibility. If something is epistemically possible, then for all we know, it might be true. But if something is ontologically possible, then it could really happen. The two kinds of possibility are not the same, because we don’t always know enough to be sure about what could really happen.

Step (ii) of the foregoing argument relates to epistemic possibility, not ontological possibility. It does not say that there is a real possibility that the God of the Bible might exist; it simply says that for all we know, the Transcendent Designer might turn out to be the God the Bible.

Step (iii) of the argument, on the other hand, relates to ontological possibility. It amounts to the claim that since the God the Bible is morally absurd, in His dealings with human beings, no such Being could possibly exist, in reality.

Now, I’m not going to bother discussing the truth or falsity of step (iii) in the foregoing argument. All I intend to say in this post is that even if you believe it to be true, the argument above is an invalid, because the two kinds of possibility in steps (ii) and (iii) are not the same.

Indeed, if you were absolutely sure that step (iii) were true, then you would have to deny step (ii). In which case, the argument fails once again.

In short: attacking the cosmological fine-tuning argument by ridiculing the God of the Bible is a waste of time.

I would like to conclude by saying that atheists who object to the cosmological fine-tuning argument really need to do their homework. Let’s see your better alternative universe, and let’s see your scientific explanation of how it works.

Comments
Replying to Chris Doyle at 29.1.1.1.1 See my reply to William Murray at 19.2.1.1.1 to see how we mark the examiner: by finding objective standards to measure him by.dmullenix
September 2, 2011
September
09
Sep
2
02
2011
03:14 AM
3
03
14
AM
PDT
For some reason there's no reply button to 19.3.1.1.1 so I'm replying to William Murray here. You continue to amaze me! This is the first time I’ve ever felt that the ID supporters on this blog are probably as astounded as I am. “What goes up must come down” and “Objects at rest tend to stay at rest, objects in motion tend to stay in motion” are not subjective statements. They’re objective statements of how the world works and they can be checked by anyone in the world and seen to be in accordance with how objects actually behave. That’s the difference between “subjective” and “objective”. “Subjective” is in your mind. You may say something, you may think something, you may believe something with all your heart, but it’s not objectively true unless other people can confirm it. When Newton said, “Objects at rest tend to stay at rest, objects in motion tend to stay in motion”, he was not making a subjective statement, he was making an objective statement about how the world works. People didn’t believe that statement because they trusted Newton, they believed it because everybody who tested it found that things did actually work that way. “Please support your assertion that Hitler believed that it was self-evidently true that the Jews were a corrupt and immoral race.” Wow again! Uh, would “Mein Kampf” do? Or how about High School history books? “In any event, just because someone claims something is self-evidently true doesn’t make it so;” Exactly! That’s the difference between subjective and objective. “Self-evidently true statements are what we must agree to in order to develop reasoning about any subject” Actually, we found a better method several centuries ago – observe the world and change your beliefs until they match, then begin to reason based on them. “By what warrant (grounding, fundamental premise) should I accept the golden rule as my guiding moral principle?” Because things that hurt me tend to hurt anybody else and things that hurt anybody else tend to hurt me. Actually, you’re getting closer to useful moral thinking here. The Golden Rule and the Categorical Imperative are shortcuts pointing to a deeper principle: nobody wants to get hurt. You could just say, “Don’t hurt me” but that’s more of a plea than a moral principle and it’s not universal – it only applies to you. “Don’t hurt me and I won’t hurt you,” makes it universal and “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” is an elegant way of phrasing that universal moral principle. It’s also objective because it applies to everybody and it can’t be changed just by your changing your mind. You might wake up next Tuesday and decide that “I should needlessly harm infants,” is self-evidently true and how would I counter you? By saying that it’s self-evidently false to me? That’s just my feeling against your feeling. But if I point out that children are people and you wouldn’t want someone to harm you, we have an objective basis for arguing our points. Of course, the whole “do unto others as you would have them do unto you” thing fails when the first masochist comes walking down the road which is why it’s just shortcut to deeper, objective standards. That’s also why we want an objective basis for our morality instead of “It’s self-evidently true to me.” “According to your argument, it is only wrong to needlessly harm an infant if I believe it to be so” No, I’m arguing that your beliefs are subjective and we want an objective basis for morality. “I conclude from this that you are either unwilling or unable to understand virtually anything I have argued here, or are simply trying to use baseless rhetoric to incite some kind of emotional reaction. And I conclude from what you’ve written that you have a very poor foundation for your morality. Here’s morality in a nutshell: What hurts or harms sentient organisms is bad. Deliberately or carelessly doing needless bad things is evil. Work with that, everybody. See if you can get “Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately.” to come out as anything but immoral.dmullenix
September 2, 2011
September
09
Sep
2
02
2011
03:13 AM
3
03
13
AM
PDT
Wow! Just Wow! You know, there’s a word for that. It’s called “subjective” and you have about the purest case of subjectivity I’ve ever seen.
Then finding self-evidently true statements about anything "What goes up must come down", "Objects at rest tend to stay at rest, objects in motion tend to stay in motion" are also "pure cases" of subjectivity. All rational thought and scientific research is based upon find self-evidently true statements first, and then proceeding from there. Without them, we have no place to begin.
It was self-evidently true to Adolph Hitler that the Jews were a corrupt and immoral race that were destroying Germany and everything decent. From there, he was able to use logic to work out the Final Solution.
Please support your assertion that Hitler believed that it was self-evidently true that the Jews were a corrupt and immoral race. Otherwise, your claim above has no merit in this argument. Beliefs and conclusions are not the same as "self-evidently true" statements. In any event, just because someone claims something is self-evidently true doesn't make it so; just because people claim that Adam and Eve sprang whole form dirt doesn't make it so; just because you believe that Hitler believed what he did as a self-evident truth doesn't make it so. Self-evidently true statements are what we must agree to in order to develop reasoning about any subject; if you deny there are self-evidently true moral statements, then you are the equivalent of a moral solipsist, and we do not have the fundamental grounds for a meaningful debate about what is and is not moral.
Uh, no. The golden rule also meets Kant’s categorical imperative: I would like to see everybody on earth adopt it. Or, as Kant put it, “Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law.”
By what warrant (grounding, fundamental premise) should I accept the golden rule as my guiding moral principle? How does your "liking" to see everybody on earth adopt it fundamentally different from my "liking" to see everybody on earth accept the moral rule "whatever William J Murray wants, he should get"? What indemnifies the golden rule over might makes right as right moral principle,or failing any capacity to make it the "right" choice, what makes it the better choice?
WHY is it always wrong to needlessly harm an infant? Would you want someone to needlessly harm you? Would you want everybody to adopt this principle?
According to your argument, it is only wrong to needlessly harm an infant if I believe it to be so, so it is not "always wrong" to needlessly harm an infant. Under my premise, that it is always wrong to needlessly harm an infant is a self-evidently true statement, which would mean that it always detracts from the good, to needlessly harm an infant, "the good" being the Aristotlean "Final Cause" or purpose of our existence. BTW, I don't believe the golden rule or the categorical imperative are anything more than secondary, populist moral principles that are at best generally functionable as traditional/ritualistic truisms/catechisms for people with poorly developed free will, a lackluster connection to the good, and only fair reasoning skills. Followed via the semantics and without grasping that they are generalized, imperfect approximations of a much deeper and perfect "good", the golden rule and the categorical imperative can easily lead to moral ruin by justifying just about any behavior. IOW, unless "the golden rule" and "the categorical imperative" are based on an objective good, there is (1) no reason for me to adopt them in the first place, and (2) no reason they cannot be rationalized into indemnifying virtually any behavior one wishes.
Your God, on the other hand, has the same foundation for His morality as you do: “Seems right to Me!” You should try reading the Bible sometime. It will help cure you of your Christianity.
I conclude from this that you are either unwilling or unable to understand virtually anything I have argued here, or are simply trying to use baseless rhetoric to incite some kind of emotional reaction.William J Murray
September 1, 2011
September
09
Sep
1
01
2011
04:59 AM
4
04
59
AM
PDT
“What informs my moral perspective/evaluation of such propositions is the same process that informs my evaluation of all things I consider to represent objective phenomena. I find self-evidently true moral statements, such as “it is always wrong to harm infants for personal pleasure”, use logic from there to find necessarily true moral statements (infants are entities that must be protected from harm), contingently true moral statements (yelling at an infant because I’m tired and frustrated is wrong), and generally true principles (the weak need to be protected by the strong).” Wow! Just Wow! You know, there’s a word for that. It’s called “subjective” and you have about the purest case of subjectivity I’ve ever seen. It was self-evidently true to Adolph Hitler that the Jews were a corrupt and immoral race that were destroying Germany and everything decent. From there, he was able to use logic to work out the Final Solution. Again, I say, “Wow!” I am definitely not turning my back on you! “Unless your choice of moral principle was arrived in some manner other than subjective selection based on personal predilection, then it was made in the same manner and authorized by the same foundation that your perceived christian god makes its choices of principle, even if that god’s moral principle is “whatever I say, goes”. Uh, no. The golden rule also meets Kant’s categorical imperative: I would like to see everybody on earth adopt it. Or, as Kant put it, “Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law.” Here’s a question you can ponder: WHY is it always wrong to needlessly harm an infant? Would you want someone to needlessly harm you? Would you want everybody to adopt this principle? Your God, on the other hand, has the same foundation for His morality as you do: “Seems right to Me!” You should try reading the Bible sometime. It will help cure you of your Christianity.dmullenix
September 1, 2011
September
09
Sep
1
01
2011
02:49 AM
2
02
49
AM
PDT
Now, is it possible that there is important information regarding conscious life on this planet that is being withheld from you that might make mitigate your judgement?
I agree.  Of course for any moral decision there may be additional information that may sway my (subjective) feeling.
And the point is, if Yahweh is real, you just not have a leg to stand on “morally”, even using your own morally as the criterion.
I don’t get this.  Even if Yahweh is real I may feel that its decisions are morally wrong.
So in the end, all this talk about your outrage about the slain babies is useless since you don’t know the extent of your ignorance about those involved.
Neither do you – neither does anyone. So by this argument no one can make any moral judgements about anything!markf
August 31, 2011
August
08
Aug
31
31
2011
11:30 PM
11
11
30
PM
PDT
No, that’s not at all “like” what I said. “Knowledge” is assumed to be objective information about something that actually exists. Under the relativist paradigm, that’s not what we’re talking about when we talk about morality; we’re talking about an entirely relative concept.
I obviously chose a bad example.  I was talking about the value of knowledge for its own sake which is subjective.  But if the word knowledge is confusing let’s take some other examples of subjective (non-moral) issues: * The importance of arts as opposed to sports (you can imagine this in a funding context).  * Whether Mozart was a greater composer than Elton John * Whether American football is a more interesting sport than Soccer I hope you agree that for all of these you do not have to assume the answer is objective to argue, examine logically, and debate the issue (For example, in the last case someone might point to the number of scoring events, the time in play, the variety of tactics etc.) So why should it be necessary to assume morality is objective? So I can have a rational moral basis for arresting and imprisoning Jeffrey Dahmer just as I can have rational artistic basis for preferring Mozart to Elton John.  And neither need be based on ultimate objective criteria – although of course they will be based on deeply held human preferences.markf
August 31, 2011
August
08
Aug
31
31
2011
10:46 PM
10
10
46
PM
PDT
"Have you read the comments and onward...Have you looked in the public lecture...Have you at least skimmed through..." I will endeavor to attend to those when time allows. "contrast what I was reading overnight from Les Kinsolving, on a recent conference in Baltimore — B4U-ACT (as in, compare ACT-UP)" What is the relevance in referring to ACT-UP in this context? In a quick follow-up I performed, it appears that there is more to the purpose of this conference than what Kinsolving et al have made it out to be. "I notice your silence in the face of tactics that amount to: we know who you are, where you are, who you care fr, and here's the targetting photo" Must I always register in public my objections to whatever is causing drama for you? Perhaps I wish to address such issues by other means.paragwinn
August 31, 2011
August
08
Aug
31
31
2011
09:15 PM
9
09
15
PM
PDT
Great point, Mike, about our ignorance of what passed before (including before human existence). Remember you mentioned the fact that we chose to participate in this game/test we call 'life' on a thread called something like "God and Evil"? I would still love to hear more about that... here or elsewhere.Chris Doyle
August 31, 2011
August
08
Aug
31
31
2011
03:19 PM
3
03
19
PM
PDT
"That’s quite a hypothetical!" No kidding. "Why do you ask?" Because I was curious about how your mind works. "On the whole I don’t think that if incarnation was real that I feel that people should be punished for sins performed under a previous incarnation." Yes, but would you feel as outraged about it? At any rate, I disagree. Now, is it possible that there is important information regarding conscious life on this planet that is being withheld from you that might make mitigate your judgement? I would say yes. And the point is, if Yahweh is real, you just not have a leg to stand on "morally", even using your own morally as the criterion. So in the end, all this talk about your outrage about the slain babies is useless since you don't know the extent of your ignorance about those involved.mike1962
August 31, 2011
August
08
Aug
31
31
2011
02:42 PM
2
02
42
PM
PDT
Religious truth is simple, Mark, and it can be found in the scriptures of most religions: particularly the Abrahamic Faiths of Judaism, Christianity and Islam; all of which are much closer than most people appreciate. Read the Torah, the New Testament and the Qu'ran. Then take your pick. Or not if you remain an atheist until the day you die. The point is, there is only one exam and we're all sitting it together. Religion merely provides the guidance to help us get through the exam. But we're free to choose the path we take (and, like I said before, many atheists follow the God-given Moral Law without even realising it).Chris Doyle
August 31, 2011
August
08
Aug
31
31
2011
08:46 AM
8
08
46
AM
PDT
Well I have to hand it you - you are consistent. So we now have rival examiners - the Jewish one, the Muslim one, the Christian one and a fair number of others. Each of them with their own, slightly different, definition of "good". How does one choose which exam to take?markf
August 31, 2011
August
08
Aug
31
31
2011
08:26 AM
8
08
26
AM
PDT
The ones fed to me by my subconscious and by my reason. Like most people on this forum, I’ve been programmed to a large degree by the better aspects of Christ’s teachings regarding tolerance, forgiveness and care of others. It just feels right.
I would say all of these are true of me - even though I don't believe Christ was divine. The question is: how is this different from being subjective?
Now, since I have you on the line, let me ask you to consider a wild scenario regarding all those babies Yahweh had the Israelites kill: what if you came to know with metaphysical certainty that the consciousness inhabited by each one of those poor little babies was actually something akin to a Hitler or Stalin in a former incarnation on a different planet? How would that color your view about their being killed in such a manner by the Israelites during their incarnation on this planet?
That's quite a hypothetical! I don't believe in incarnation so I really have to use my imagination very hard. It so far away from any real moral decision that my (subjective) opinion is extremely uncertain. On the whole I don't think that if incarnation was real that I feel that people should be punished for sins performed under a previous incarnation. Why do you ask?markf
August 31, 2011
August
08
Aug
31
31
2011
08:22 AM
8
08
22
AM
PDT
Mike, don't play along with MF's atmosphere poisoning rhetorical distraction.kairosfocus
August 31, 2011
August
08
Aug
31
31
2011
06:04 AM
6
06
04
AM
PDT
PS: On grounding morality and applying it to life and culture, as well as public policy, cf here on (with a sidelight on the moral monster talking points here on) and here on above.kairosfocus
August 31, 2011
August
08
Aug
31
31
2011
06:02 AM
6
06
02
AM
PDT
"What criteria do you use when assessing the moral judgements of a God and thus deciding which one to worship?"
The ones fed to me by my subconscious and by my reason. Like most people on this forum, I've been programmed to a large degree by the better aspects of Christ's teachings regarding tolerance, forgiveness and care of others. It just feels right. Now, since I have you on the line, let me ask you to consider a wild scenario regarding all those babies Yahweh had the Israelites kill: what if you came to know with metaphysical certainty that the consciousness inhabited by each one of those poor little babies was actually something akin to a Hitler or Stalin in a former incarnation on a different planet? How would that color your view about their being killed in such a manner by the Israelites during their incarnation on this planet?mike1962
August 31, 2011
August
08
Aug
31
31
2011
05:51 AM
5
05
51
AM
PDT
Onlookers: And so, the red herring drags away to the strawman soaked with ad hominems and awaiting the firebrand talking point. the better to distract us and cloud, poison and polarise the atmosphere. Let's get this discussion back on track: the fundamental issue here is that MF like other materialists, has no worldview foundational IS that can ground OUGHT, and so ends up advocating the sort of amorality that is now reaching the pitch I have exposed here this morning. Yes, there is now an agenda to decriminalise pederasty. After all,
"Pedophiles are “unfairly stigmatized and demonized” by society" . . . . “An adult’s desire to have sex with children is ‘normative.’” Our society should “maximize individual liberty. We have a highly moralistic society that is not consistent with liberty” . . . . “The majority of pedophiles are gentle and rational.” The diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders should “focus on the needs” of the pedophile, and should have “a minimal focus on social control,” rather than obsessing about “the need to protect children.”
Sometimes, only the shock of seeing what is actually afoot, will open our eyes. Now of course what MF would like for us to be debating is whether snipped out bits of ANE war rhetoric that were not meant literally -- the same "wipe-out" texts typically speak of how the defeated population is to be treated -- and generally ameliorative regulations of slavery etc reveal the God of the Bible to be a "moral monster" whose followers today are Christo-fascist would be theocratic tyrants. This is well-poisoning rhetoric. But in fact at the same time he will not address the core amorality and self-referential absurdity worldview challenges of his own agenda, or its terrible history as the ghosts of 100 million victims over the past 100 years would remind us, much less the sort of sober response to exegetical and ethical difficulties that are a web click away. I only footnote the ante upping publication of slanderised targetting photos by the unhinged on his side of the fence, as that has already been linked. So, ponder: has MF or any other evo mat advocate been able to provide a grounding basis for morality within that worldview? If not, let us consider the implications as long since exposed by Will Hawthorne:
Assume (per impossibile) that atheistic naturalism [[= evolutionary materialism] is true. Assume, furthermore, that one can't infer an 'ought' from an 'is' [[the 'is' being in this context physicalist: matter-energy, space- time, chance and mechanical forces]. (Richard Dawkins and many other atheists should grant both of these assumptions.) Given our second assumption, there is no description of anything in the natural world from which we can infer an 'ought'. And given our first assumption, there is nothing that exists over and above the natural world; the natural world is all that there is. It follows logically that, for any action you care to pick, there's no description of anything in the natural world from which we can infer that one ought to refrain from performing that action. Add a further uncontroversial assumption: an action is permissible if and only if it's not the case that one ought to refrain from performing that action . . . [[We see] therefore, for any action you care to pick, it's permissible to perform that action. If you'd like, you can take this as the meat behind the slogan 'if atheism is true, all things are permitted'. For example if atheism is true, every action Hitler performed was permissible. Many atheists don't like this consequence of their worldview. But they cannot escape it and insist that they are being logical at the same time. Now, we all know that at least some actions are really not permissible (for example, racist actions). Since the conclusion of the argument denies this, there must be a problem somewhere in the argument. Could the argument be invalid? No. The argument has not violated a single rule of logic and all inferences were made explicit. Thus we are forced to deny the truth of one of the assumptions we started out with. That means we either deny atheistic naturalism or (the more intuitively appealing) principle that one can't infer 'ought' from [[a material] 'is'.
Then, reflect on the next step in the amoralist agenda as advocated by B4U-ACT in an ACADEMIC conference. Is that where our civilisation should be going next? GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 31, 2011
August
08
Aug
31
31
2011
05:47 AM
5
05
47
AM
PDT
Both Jews and Muslims must accept that slavery is permissable. But the question is, how do you end up with slaves in the first place? In modern times, both Jews and Muslims will find it virtually impossible to acquire slaves in a morally permissible manner. Strictly speaking (ie. according to St Paul) it doesn't apply to Christians.Chris Doyle
August 31, 2011
August
08
Aug
31
31
2011
05:41 AM
5
05
41
AM
PDT
Let's us stick the more moderate claim that slavery is permissable. The quote seems pretty clear on that. The examined should not examine the examiner. So a good Christian must accept that slavery is morally permissable and must accept it at all times (because morality is timeless). Happy with that conclusion?markf
August 31, 2011
August
08
Aug
31
31
2011
05:29 AM
5
05
29
AM
PDT
So you are saying if don't like the moral judgements of a God don't worship him. What criteria do you use when assessing the moral judgements of a God and thus deciding which one to worship?markf
August 31, 2011
August
08
Aug
31
31
2011
05:25 AM
5
05
25
AM
PDT
dmullenix said:
I don’t go with “might makes right”
While "might makes right" may not be the specific moral principle you pick, it is the more fundamental principle of 'might makes right" that allows you to pick whatever moral principle you wish or feel comfortable with in the first place. You implicitly indemnify your right to pick "the golden rule" (or any other such principle) via might. IOW, you pick "the golden rule" (or whatever principle) because you **can** and because it **feels** comfortable to you, not because you are attempting to discern true principles describing an objectively existent good. If I subjectively choose a different moral principle, say "everyone should serve my wishes", then I can do so because I have the might (will, personal proclivity, desire) to do so, and I don't have to justify it according to any principle other than my own will (might). You might be able to hide your ultimate might-makes-right moral justification from yourself, but you cannot hide it from the light of reason.William J Murray
August 31, 2011
August
08
Aug
31
31
2011
05:18 AM
5
05
18
AM
PDT
markf said:
But my question is – how do you prove that the Moral Law is moral to an atheist?
Since atheists are moral solipsists, you can't prove anything about morality to them. "Proving" something about a commodity requires the a priori acceptance that there is an objective basis by which evidence and argument can be evaluated, argued and accepted as sufficient proof one way or another.William J Murray
August 31, 2011
August
08
Aug
31
31
2011
05:06 AM
5
05
06
AM
PDT
Markf: So do you think it was moral to kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately.
Yahweh (or whoever wrote that book) thought it was "moral" (whatever that means.) If you don't like Yahweh, don't worship him. Is someone trying to twist your arm?mike1962
August 31, 2011
August
08
Aug
31
31
2011
05:06 AM
5
05
06
AM
PDT
F/N: It seems that worldview level issues in the context of the new atheist "moral monsters" talking points, are dominant at UD these days. So, I note for record. Notice, above, how studiously MF avoids the citation from the very same work that Jesus of Nazareth identified as at the core of the system of moral teachings in the OT (not to mention acknowledging the actual balance of responsible teachings -- e.g. cf here -- on the sort of issues that are involved with questions on regulation of the once universal institution of slavery, ANE warfare rhetoric, etc, or recognising the highly relevant history of how slavery came to be opposed and abolished, e.g. let's call the names Wilberforce and Buxton):
Lev 19: 9 “‘When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. 10 Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the LORD your God. 11 “‘Do not steal. “‘Do not lie. “‘Do not deceive one another. 12 “‘Do not swear falsely by my name and so profane the name of your God. I am the LORD. 13 “‘Do not defraud your neighbor or rob him. “‘Do not hold back the wages of a hired man overnight. 14 “‘Do not curse the deaf or put a stumbling block in front of the blind, but fear your God. I am the LORD. 15 “‘Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly. 16 “‘Do not go about spreading slander among your people. “‘Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor’s life. I am the LORD. 17 “‘Do not hate your brother in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in his guilt. 18 “‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.
In addition, let us notice MF's appeal to moral outrage, in the cause of an inherently amoral view that has no foundational IS that can justify OUGHT. It is quite plain as can be seen from an investigation here on (cf also the work in progress here on) that we see just above a red herring led away to a strawman laced with ad hominems and ignited to distract, cloud and polarise. For the real issue that is central is that MF implies that ought is real. And if ought is real the only worldview foundations that can be credible are those that have in them an IS that can ground OUGHT. The only serious candidate for that is the inherently good God, our Creator and Lord, i.e generic ethical theism. The Judaeo-Christian tradition seeks to serve that God evident from the world and from what is in our hearts. And, it is seriously arguable that it is a reasonable and responsible tradition in that pursuit. I think a comparison here with my post this morning, will reveal a lot about what is really going on over this moral monsters talking point being pushed ever so hard by new atheist advocates. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 31, 2011
August
08
Aug
31
31
2011
05:03 AM
5
05
03
AM
PDT
MarkF said:
No this does not follow. That’s like saying if someone strongly believes there is no value in pursuing knowledge for its own sake then there is not value in pursuing knowledge for its own sake and we should stop funding astronomy.
No, that's not at all "like" what I said. "Knowledge" is assumed to be objective information about something that actually exists. Under the relativist paradigm, that's not what we're talking about when we talk about morality; we're talking about an entirely relative concept.
Remember what subjective means. If there is someone who really believes these things are moral then it is moral for that person – but not for you or me or the vast majority of people.
Then my examples do follow; if one really believes those things are moral, then they are moral for them. What difference does it make if it is considered moral or not for others? That is irrelevant to the point that for the person that believes it to be so, torturing infants for fun **is** moral. I didn't say anything about anyone else, who obviously can generate their own particular morals from their own strongly-held beliefs.
There are people who have moral feelings that are completely out of kilter with most others. We typically call them psychopaths and regard them as mad. But we don’t have an objective way of proving them wrong. Do you?
Do you have an objective way of proving to me that everything I experience is not a delusion? Unless we are advocating solipsism, we must assume that some things we experience are objectively existent. Can we prove they are objectively existent, thus giving us a means to objectively prove statements about them true or false? No; again, such objective existence - about anything - must first be assumed. It is a necessary first principle without which rational debate about anything is impossible. So, we can either assume morals describe an objective good, or we can assume they do not, and that is the point. Please note: the main point isn't about what particular moral claims can be proven or disproven, but rather that without an assumption of objective basis for morality in the first place, nothing about morality whatsoever can be "proven" in any meaningful sense, because all we are doing is asserting various aspects of personal, subjective taste. Knowledge about morality can only be developed (argued, examined logically, debated) if morality is based on an objective commodity. Is an argument about what tastes better, apple pie or cherry, an advancement of "knowledge" about how to discern which tastes better? I think not - at least not in any reasonable sense. So, do I have a means of proving moral assertions true or false? Of course, but that necessarily means assuming that "good" is an objective commodity. Once we make that assumption - like we must with anything else to develop rational arguments and knowledge about - then we can establish self-evident moral truths, necessary moral truths, general principles, and move on to evaluating contingent moral claims and solving moral dilemmas. The important point is: under your relativistic morality, "what is moral" is whatever I believe it to be, so my calling another entity a "moral monster" is the equivalent of saying "cherry pie tastes awful". It is an utterly trivial statement of personal taste. I would have no more rational moral basis for arresting and imprisoning Jeffrey Dahmer than I would have for arresting and imprisoning someone for eating and enjoying cherry pie.William J Murray
August 31, 2011
August
08
Aug
31
31
2011
04:54 AM
4
04
54
AM
PDT
Mark, can you explain exactly how that quote from Leviticus encourages slavery as a morally good act? At best, it merely says that slavery is permissible. There's a huge difference between "permissible" and "morally good" wouldn't you agree? Yes, morality is timeless. And the point is, the examined does not question the examiner. The examiner is not being tested, and even if he was, he couldn't be tested by the examined. Surely you wouldn't encourage a child to question the examiner while they're sitting their test? They are in no position to do so and its not what they're in the exam to do in the first place.Chris Doyle
August 31, 2011
August
08
Aug
31
31
2011
04:37 AM
4
04
37
AM
PDT
In other words, you can’t produce a quote from the Bible that encourages Christians to acquire slaves because this is morally good. People shouldn’t make claims that they can’t substantiate.
Did you read the reference I gave you? Here is the first quote.
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
Continuing ...
Or ask nonsensical questions like the one you quoted from Dmullenix. It’s like saying, how does the person sitting the exam mark the examiner?
So do you think it was moral to kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. I guess you must do, because for you it is God who defines what is moral and these were God's instructions. And presumably you think morality is timeless - so do you still believe this to be a moral thing to do? If not, what criteria are you using to question the examiner?markf
August 31, 2011
August
08
Aug
31
31
2011
04:29 AM
4
04
29
AM
PDT
Dmullinex: I'm assuming that by "Bill" you mean me, since I don't see anyone else that you could be referring to.
Oh, all right Bill. I go for the Golden Rule, which predates Jesus by at least several centuries.
Unless your choice of moral principle was arrived in some manner other than subjective selection based on personal predilection, then it was made in the same manner and authorized by the same foundation that your perceived christian god makes its choices of principle, even if that god's moral principle is "whatever I say, goes".
A question for you: When God allegedly commands Moses, “Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately.” As In Numbers 31:17, what moral perspective do you judge the Biblical God by?
Since I've never read the Bible, and my arguments about god and morality do not stem from the Bible, I'll assume the above is a faithful account. What informs my moral perspective/evaluation of such propositions is the same process that informs my evaluation of all things I consider to represent objective phenomena. I find self-evidently true moral statements, such as "it is always wrong to harm infants for personal pleasure", use logic from there to find necessarily true moral statements (infants are entities that must be protected from harm), contingently true moral statements (yelling at an infant because I'm tired and frustrated is wrong), and generally true principles (the weak need to be protected by the strong). Since it is self-evidently true that purposefully harming children for no good reason is immoral, and there doesn't appear to be a good reason for harming the children in the passage, I would consider that an immoral command, and if Moses carried it out, an immoral action (with the caveat that I'm not familiar with the context or any apologetic reasoning that might put the passage in a different light.) Now, let's compare our two moral systems. In your moral system, moral principles and views are subjective. You can select whatever principle appeals to you and it is valid for no reason other than that you have selected it; that method validates the moral principles and choices of what you perceive as the Christian god. If god subjectively picks "whatever I say or want is moral" as opposed to your subjectively-chosen "golden rule"; then since there is no objective, fundamentally existent morality, you are both fully authorized to make morality whatever you wish. IOW, the basis of your moral system is relativism (not the golden rule, since you didn't claim it was the objective standard, nor explained it as such, its just the one that works for you), and relativism validates both your choice and god's choice of moral system, leaving you no grounds by which to complain that the Biblical god's choice is wrong. How can something chosen purely by subjective taste be considered wrong? It would be like asking someone to pick their favorite color, and when they say "red", you say "wrong". On the other hand, my moral system is based on the assumption that morality describes an objective commodity - an objective good. God doesn't pick what is good; god is assumed not to "have" goodness, but to "be" goodness, and thus cannot be anything else, and cannot capriciously or arbitrarily decide what "good" is or means. Unlike your moral system which cannot judge the moral systems or choices of others as "wrong", but rather only as something you wouldn't personally choose, my moral system allows me to make a moral judgement about the choices and systems of others, including any so-called god or social system or law or view held by the consensus, because they can be compared to a standard held to be objective. What that means is that I have the axiomatic grounds by which to render meaningful moral judgements; you do not. Unless you are offering a meaningfully grounded objective standard for any finding that some proposed entity is a "moral monster", then all you are doing is using rhetoric, attempting to sway Christians from their belief via an irrational condemnation of their god's actions from their own moral perspective, not from your own subjective moral basis, when that rhetoric doesn't hold up under basic logic. IOW, you have no meaningful moral "house", and you're trying to get others out of their houses by yelling "fire" when there is none. But, if you can get them to irrationally react to your claim and abandon their house, you win. Or, at least you make yourself feel better, for whatever reason. Subjectively choosing "the golden rule" as a personal-taste ruler by which to judge how you perceive the Christian god demonstrates that you have no meaningful basis for such a judgement, and offer no substantive any reason to adopt or even pay attention to your exclamations of personal moral taste.William J Murray
August 31, 2011
August
08
Aug
31
31
2011
04:06 AM
4
04
06
AM
PDT
In other words, you can't produce a quote from the Bible that encourages Christians to acquire slaves because this is morally good. People shouldn't make claims that they can't substantiate. Or ask nonsensical questions like the one you quoted from Dmullenix. It's like saying, how does the person sitting the exam mark the examiner?Chris Doyle
August 31, 2011
August
08
Aug
31
31
2011
03:20 AM
3
03
20
AM
PDT
Sorry - forgot you are not a Christian. What are you? It is simple to Google "Bible on Slavery". The first item I get is: http://www.evilbible.com/Slavery.htm which contains many quotes. But remember my point. I am sure the relevance and message of these quotes can be debated. My point is why would it occur to a Christian to even debate them. What criterion are they using that makes them doubt the quotes should be taken at face value? Dmullenix has made the same point better in 19.3 above:
A question for you: When God allegedly commands Moses, “Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately.” As In Numbers 31:17, what moral perspective do you judge the Biblical God by?
markf
August 31, 2011
August
08
Aug
31
31
2011
03:10 AM
3
03
10
AM
PDT
As you know, I'm not a Christian. Nonetheless, could you please quote the chapter and verse of the Bible that informs us that slavery is morally good.Chris Doyle
August 31, 2011
August
08
Aug
31
31
2011
02:59 AM
2
02
59
AM
PDT
1 2 3 4 5 6

Leave a Reply