Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

“The universe is too big, too old and too cruel”: three silly objections to cosmological fine-tuning (Part One)

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In previous articles, I have argued that even if our universe is part of some larger multiverse, we still have excellent scientific grounds for believing that our universe – and also the multiverse in which it is embedded – is fine-tuned to permit the possibility of life. Moreover, the only adequate explanation for the extraordinary degree of fine-tuning we observe in the cosmos is that it is the product of an Intelligence. That is the cosmological fine-tuning argument, in a nutshell. My articles can be viewed here:

So you think the multiverse refutes cosmological fine-tuning? Consider Arthur Rubinstein
Beauty and the multiverse
Why a multiverse would still need to be fine-tuned, in order to make baby universes

Scientific challenges to the cosmological fine-tuning argument can be ably rebutted, as this article by Dr. Robin Collins shows. However, there are three objections to fine-tuning which I keep hearing from atheists over and over again. Here they are:

1. If the universe was designed to support life, then why does it have to be so BIG, and why is it nearly everywhere hostile to life? Why are there so many stars, and why are so few orbited by life-bearing planets?

2. If the universe was designed to support life, then why does it have to be so OLD, and why was it devoid of life throughout most of its history? For instance, why did life on Earth only appear after 70% of the cosmos’s 13.7-billion-year history had already elapsed? And Why did human beings (genus Homo) only appear after 99.98% of the cosmos’s 13.7-billion-year history had already elapsed?

3. If the universe was designed to support life, then why does Nature have to be so CRUEL? Why did so many animals have to die – and why did so many species of animals have to go extinct (99% is the commonly quoted figure), in order to generate the world as we see it today? What a waste! And what about predation, parasitism, and animals that engage in practices such as serial murder and infant cannibalism?

In today’s post, I’m not going to attempt to provide any positive reasons why we should expect an intelligently designed universe to be big and old, and why we should not be too surprised if it contains a lot of suffering. I’ll talk about those reasons in my next post. What I’m going to do in this post is try to clear the air, and explain why I regard the foregoing objections to the cosmic fine-tuning argument as weak and inconclusive.

Here are seven points I’d like atheists who object to the cosmological fine-tuning argument to consider:

1. If you don’t like the universe that we live in, then the onus is on you to show that a better universe is physically possible, given a different set of laws and/or a different fundamental theory of physics. Only when you have done this are you entitled to make the argument that our universe is so poorly designed that no Intelligent Being could possibly have made it.

At this point, I expect to hear splutterings of protest: “But that’s not our problem. It’s God’s. Isn’t your God omnipotent? Can’t He make anything He likes – including a perfect universe?” Here’s my answer: “First, the cosmological fine-tuning argument claims to establish the existence of an Intelligent Designer, who may or may not be omnipotent. Second, even an omnipotent Being can only make things that can be coherently described. So what I want you to do is provide me with a physical model of your better universe, showing how its laws and fundamental theory of physics differ from those of our universe, and why these differences make it better. Until you can do that, you’d better get back to work.”

2. Imaginability doesn’t imply physical possibility. I can imagine a winged horse, but that doesn’t make it physically possible. The question still needs to be asked: “How would it fly?” I can also imagine a nicer universe where unpleasant things never happen, but I still have to ask myself: “What kind of scientific laws and what kind of fundamental theory would need to hold in that nicer universe, in order to prevent unpleasant things from happening?”

3. As Dr. Robin Collins has argued, the laws of our universe are extremely elegant, from a mathematical perspective. (See also my post, Beauty and the multiverse.) If there is an Intelligent Designer, He presumably favors mathematical elegance. However, even if a “nicer” universe proved to be physically possible, in a cosmos characterized by some other set of scientific laws and a different fundamental theory of physics, the scientific laws and fundamental theory of such a universe might not be anywhere near as mathematically elegant as those of the universe that we live in. The Intelligent Designer might not want to make a “nice”, pain-free universe, if doing so entails making a messy, inelegant universe.

4. If a Designer wanted to design a universe that was free from animal suffering (i.e. a world in which animals were able to avoid noxious stimuli, without the conscious feeling of pain), there are two ways in which He could accomplish this: He could either use basic, macro-level laws of Nature (e.g. “It is a law of Nature that no animal that is trapped in a forest fire shall suffer pain”) or micro-level laws (i.e. by making laws of Nature precluding those physical arrangements of matter in animals’ brain and nervous systems which correspond to pain).

The first option is incompatible with materialism. If you believe in the materialist doctrine of supervenience (that any differences between two animals’ mental states necessarily reflect an underlying physical difference between them), it automatically follows that if a trapped animal’s brain and nervous system instantiates a physical arrangement of matter which corresponds to pain, then that animal will suffer pain, period. No irreducible, top-down “macro-level” law can prevent that, in a materialistic universe. So if you’re asking the Designer to make a world where unpleasant or painful things never happen by simply decreeing this, then what you’re really asking for is a world in which animals’ minds cannot be described in materialistic terms. Are you sure you want that?

The second option is unwieldly. There are a vast number of possible physical arrangements of matter in animals’ brain and nervous systems which correspond to pain, and there is no single feature that they all possess in common, at the micro level. An Intelligent Designer would need to make a huge number of extra laws, in order to preclude each and every one of these physical arrangements. That in turn would make the laws of Nature a lot less elegant, when taken as a whole. The Intelligent Designer might not want to make such an aesthetically ugly universe.

Eliminating animal suffering might not be a wise thing to do, in any case. One could argue that the conscious experience of pain is, at least sometimes, biologically beneficial, since it subsequently leads to survival-promoting behavior: “Once bitten, twice shy.” (An automatic, unconscious response to noxious stimuli might achieve the same result, but perhaps not as effectively or reliably as conscious pain.) However, if the Designer is going to allow survival-promoting pain into His world, then He will have to allow the neural states corresponding to that pain. If He still wants to rule out pain that doesn’t promote survival, then He’s going to have to make funny, top-down “macro-level” laws to ensure this – for instance: “It is a law of nature that neural state X [which correspinds to pain in one’s right toe] is only allowed to exist if it benefits the animal biologically.” Note the reference to the whole animal here. You’re asking Mother Nature to check whether the pain would be biologically beneficial to the animal as a whole, before “deciding” whether to allow the animal to experience the feeling of pain or not. But that’s a “macro-level” law, and hence not the kind of law which any card-carrying materialist could consistently ask a Designer to implement.

5. Objections to fine-tuning are of no avail unless they are even more powerful than arguments for fine-tuning. I’d like to use a simple mathematical example to illustrate the point. (I’ve deliberately tried to keep this illustration as jargon-free – and Bayes-free- as possible, so that everyone can understand it.) Suppose, for argument’s sake, that the cosmic fine-tuning argument makes it 99.999999999999999999999 per cent likely (given our current knowledge of physics) that the universe had a Designer. Now suppose, on the other hand, that the vast size and extreme age of the universe, combined with the enormous wastage of animal life and the huge amount of suffering that has occurred during the Earth’s history, make it 99.999999 per cent likely (given our current scientific knowledge of what’s physically possible and what’s not) that a universe containing these features didn’t have a Designer. Given these figures, it would still be rational to accept the cosmic fine-tuning argument, and to believe that our universe had a Designer. Put simply: if someone offers me a 99.999999999999999999999 per cent airtight argument that there is an Intelligent Designer of Nature, and then someone else puts forward a 99.999999 per cent airtight argument that there isn’t an Intelligent Designer, I’m going to go with the first argument and distrust the second. Any sensible person would. Why? Because the likelihood that the first argument is wrong is orders of magnitude lower than the likelihood that the second argument is wrong. Putting it another way: the second argument is “leakier” than the first, so we shouldn’t trust it, if it appears to contradict the first.

6. For the umpteenth time, Intelligent Design theory says nothing about the moral character of the Designer. Even if an atheist could demonstrate beyond all doubt that no loving, personal Designer could have produced the kind of universe we live in, would that prove that there was no Designer? No. All it would show is that the Designer was unloving and/or impersonal – in which case, the logical thing to do (given the strength of the fine-tuning argument) would be to become a Deist. Of course, you might not like such an impersonal Deity – and naturally, it wouldn’t like you, either. But as a matter of scientific honesty, you would be bound to to acknowledge its existence, if that’s where the evidence led.

I’m genuinely curious as to why so few Intelligent Design critics have addressed the philosophy of Deism, and I can only put it down to pique. It’s as if the critics are saying, “Well, I don’t want anything to do with that kind of Deity, as it’s indifferent to suffering. Therefore, I refuse to even consider the possibility that it might exist.” When one puts it like that, it does seem a rather silly attitude to entertain, doesn’t it?

7. From time to time, I have noticed that some atheist critics of the cosmological fine-tuning argument make their case by attacking the God of the Bible. I have often wondered why they focus their attack on such a narrow target, as people of many different religions (and none) can still believe in some sort of God. I strongly suspect that the underlying logic is as follows:

(i) if the cosmological fine-tuning argument is true then there is a Transcendent Designer;

(ii) if there is a Transcendent Designer then it’s possible that this Designer is the God of the Bible;

(iii) but it is impossible that the God of the Bible could exist, because He is a “moral monster”;

(iv) hence, the cosmological fine-tuning argument is not true.

This is a pathological form of reasoning, since it is emotionally driven by a visceral dislike of the God of the Bible. Nevertheless, I believe this form of reasoning is quite common among atheists.

What’s wrong with the foregoing argument? (I shall assume for the purposes of the discussion below that step (i) is true.) At a cursory glance, the argument looks valid:

if A is true then B is true; if B is true then it is possible that C; but it is not possible that C; hence A is not true.

The argument is invalid, however, because it confuses epistemic possibility with real (ontological) possibility. If something is epistemically possible, then for all we know, it might be true. But if something is ontologically possible, then it could really happen. The two kinds of possibility are not the same, because we don’t always know enough to be sure about what could really happen.

Step (ii) of the foregoing argument relates to epistemic possibility, not ontological possibility. It does not say that there is a real possibility that the God of the Bible might exist; it simply says that for all we know, the Transcendent Designer might turn out to be the God the Bible.

Step (iii) of the argument, on the other hand, relates to ontological possibility. It amounts to the claim that since the God the Bible is morally absurd, in His dealings with human beings, no such Being could possibly exist, in reality.

Now, I’m not going to bother discussing the truth or falsity of step (iii) in the foregoing argument. All I intend to say in this post is that even if you believe it to be true, the argument above is an invalid, because the two kinds of possibility in steps (ii) and (iii) are not the same.

Indeed, if you were absolutely sure that step (iii) were true, then you would have to deny step (ii). In which case, the argument fails once again.

In short: attacking the cosmological fine-tuning argument by ridiculing the God of the Bible is a waste of time.

I would like to conclude by saying that atheists who object to the cosmological fine-tuning argument really need to do their homework. Let’s see your better alternative universe, and let’s see your scientific explanation of how it works.

Comments
William
I was really hoping Dmullinex or some other non-theist would answer the question I posed above at #11: IF we assume Christianity is true, then God is the source of “what is moral”; THEN what god does is necessarily moral, even if contingent acts seemingly contradict general moral rules, “God’s will” is the only source by which morality can be judged. IF we assume that Christianity is not true, then what system of principled morality do you refer to in your judgement that the god of the Bible is a “moral monster”? You failed to provide your basis for your judgement – please do so.
This debate has been covered literally thousands of times here and a multitude of other places on the internet. I am surprised you want to raise it again! But if you really want a non-theist view. 1) Most of the actions/attitudes that are attributed to the Christian God seem OK to me - but some seem morally wrong. 2) This my subjective feeling about the rightness of those actions. 3) Subjective is not the same as "trivial" or "unjustified" or "lacking a rational basis". For example, if you find a film funny and I find it boring - that is presumably subjective. However, we will both have justifications for our view and if are committed to go to see the same film then our view is not trivial. I have lost count of the number of times I have tried to explain this in different ways. I never seem to succeed - but maybe one day :-)markf
August 30, 2011
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I wish that I had been brought up in a more philosophically instructive environment. I hadn't even heard of the concept of "first principles" until I started reading ID materials. That's when I realized my world-view and positions were not grounded in any sustainable or meaningful foundation. I was lucky in that my anti-theistic passion had been softened by my love for a theist woman, which compelled me to find a way to be more than just "tolerant" of theism. Other anti-theists are not so lucky, and can't see past their righteous indignation that they've indeed thrown the baby out with the bathwater. While the ritual of "this is what the Bible says" may provide a traditional framework for good moral habits, that just doesn't cut it for many, like me, who have a need to ask "Why?"or "Who says?", and have that question meaningfully answered. "Because X says so" is not a sufficient answer. I was never introduced to Aristotle, Plato, Aquinas or Lewis - I had to find them on my own much later, but that was well after I had already run my train off the rails and into the self-destructive pit of atheistic materialism because of my own righteous outrage at "Because X says so." In a free society, "Because X says so" is not good enough, because one can legally and socially dissent and say "Who says?" Drawing the rebel back towards that which they have rebelled against is a much harder emotional task than providing them the rational grounds for X in the first place. IMO, children need to be instructed in the basic principles of reason and in a more informed and nuanced concept of theistic principles because, IMO, a hellfire and damnation introduction to theism is at least partially to blame for the modern exodus into the wilderness of materialism.William J Murray
August 30, 2011
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PS: And, on good reason, on a soundly conscience-informed worldview that is willing to accept our fellow creatures as being our equals, and that we collectively have a stewardship over our world, we may often identify the OBJECTIVELY right path. That is, moral knowledge is possible, and ethically informed decision making grounded on sound moral insights is also possible. Here is my own briefing note on that [with attached tools], as an advocate of a properly understood premise of sustainable development, and here is where I stood up in public as an SD practitioner, to defend it [slide show here as a PDF]; as an invited public lecture in my homeland, subsequently published as a peer-reviewed theology and ethics paper in the leading regional Evangelical Journal of theology. In short, through the generic ethical, creational view of the cosmos and of ourselves in it, with the concept of being equally valuable morally governed creatures, with a stewardship, we can in fact construct a pretty reasonable and publicly defensible ethics for life in community and public policy. And if you want to view this as a political agenda, kindly observe what it advocates, i.e. consultative, participative consensus-driven informed public democracy in a generally communitarian frame of thought. (Cf here an actual national energy policy specifically informed by that frame and developed through that approach.) The pivot of that position is a correctly understood, well-informed application of the Golden Rule/ Categorical Imperative -- despite Kant's dismissals, on a calmer look, they are logically equivalent in force -- that guides personal and community level moral thought, and informs public policy through its application to a reasonable form of the sustainability principle that respects liberty and the civil peace of justice. So, we are not at all locked up to one form or another of might makes right. Let us start the corrective from there.kairosfocus
August 30, 2011
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WJM: You have raised some very serious points. The issue is, are there real grounds for morality, or is it just a matter of might in one form or another, in one set of hands or another, makes right? That's the heart of why the long since passed sell-by date Euthyphro dilemma, so-called, has been resurrected in current debates. Put in simple, direct terms, there is a global consensus that some things are really right, and other things are really wrong. That is we are plainly under moral law, so must find a worldview that is grounded on an IS that can soundly ground OUGHT. As I have pointed out over and over again, across time, there is only one serious candidate for that: we live in a world where we are morally governed creatures created equally in his image by an INHERENTLY good Lord, God; who is the necessary being ultimately behind our contingent cosmos. Generic ethical theism, in short. The onward debate over whether the God we find in the Bible's pages, in Israel's history and that of wider Western Civilisation, is a good candidate to be that God, is a second order question. There is good reason to infer that a responsible person can answer, yes [cf my comments just above, and onward discussions]. But that is a matter of a specific tradition, not of a bare, skeletal worldview core as such. What is much more material to the live issues that we are confronting, is the way that objectors tot he design inference to design as the likely cause of C-chemistry cell based life and its forms are reasoning, and how they are behaving in response to the cosmological design inference, which is much more directly related to the sort of generic theism just highlighted. Namely, through willful misrepresentation, demonisation and unhinged hostility that is now seeing itself as justified in painting targets on people's backs. This must stop. NOW. And, abusing the general consensus on morality to try to push God in the dock through willful scripture-twisting [the correctives are there for all to find, if they have even a modicum of good will] thence those who seek to adhere to him, is wrong. To demonise and then take opportunity of so dehumanising the other, to play at outing individuals, their families and locations, then now posting up mug shorts, the better to guide the unhinges who might want to do violence, is inexcusable. Such Saul Alinsky tactics must be exposed and corrected forthwith. Clipping Rules for Radicals:
1. "Power is not only what you have, but what the enemy thinks you have." . . . . 3. "Whenever possible, go outside the expertise of the enemy. Look for ways to increase insecurity, anxiety and uncertainty. (This happens all the time. Watch how many organizations under attack are blind-sided by seemingly irrelevant arguments that they are then forced to address.) 4. "Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules. You can kill them with this, for they can no more obey their own rules than the Christian church can live up to Christianity." 5. "Ridicule is man's most potent weapon. It is almost impossible to counteract ridicule. Also it infuriates the opposition, which then reacts to your advantage." . . . . 13. Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it. [NB: Notice the evil counsel to find a way to attack the man, not the issue. The easiest way to do that, is to use the trifecta stratagem: distract, distort, demonise.] In conflict tactics there are certain rules that [should be regarded] as universalities. One is that the opposition must be singled out as the target and 'frozen.'... "...any target can always say, 'Why do you center on me when there are others to blame as well?' When your 'freeze the target,' you disregard these [rational but distracting] arguments.... Then, as you zero in and freeze your target and carry out your attack, all the 'others' come out of the woodwork very soon. They become visible by their support of the target...' "One acts decisively only in the conviction that all the angels are on one side and all the devils on the other." [And DK et al, I have answered your red herring attempt to distract the issue on whether or no Alinsky was a neo-marxist here, as clipped from the answer I gave in your blog comments that you seem to have ignored.]
Have we learned anything from Breivik and all the way back to Columbine? GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 30, 2011
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I was really hoping Dmullinex or some other non-theist would answer the question I posed above at #11:
IF we assume Christianity is true, then God is the source of “what is moral”; THEN what god does is necessarily moral, even if contingent acts seemingly contradict general moral rules, “God’s will” is the only source by which morality can be judged. IF we assume that Christianity is not true, then what system of principled morality do you refer to in your judgement that the god of the Bible is a “moral monster”? You failed to provide your basis for your judgement – please do so.
... because I think this goes to the root of the "god is a moral monster" issue. I, too, rejected the "moral monster" god that had been presented to me as a child growing up; I think that it is appropriate to do so. However, that emotional outrage must be eventually tempered by a rational justification. If one is going to judge that perceived entity based on moral grounds, then what are your moral grounds for doing so, and how are those grounds any more rational, or better, than the "moral monster" you are condemning? This is where atheists fail in their moral perspective; they can offer no better a moral grounds for their conviction that god is a moral monster than that which authorizes the behavior of that perceived god in the first place. IOW, it's a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Atheistic materialists cannot rationally condemn what they percieive as the Biblical god as "immoral" on grounds based on the Bible being true, because if the Bible is true, then god is the author of "what is moral" and so no behavior of god can be found immoral, even if certain contingent acts of god seem to violate general rules of morality provided to humans by god. So, the only way to logically assert their perceived Biblical god as a "moral monster" is to judge it from some other moral perspective. But, what "other" moral perspective are atheists/materialists judging the Biblical god by? What are their grounds/principles that justify such a judgement? As we have more thoroughly pursued in other threads, without an objective grounding for what is "good" in relation to a final cause (purpose) of humans, morality cannot be anything more than subjective justifications for subjective goals based on subjectively-chosen principles, which always boils down to one form of "might makes right" or another - the might of consensus, of physical power, or of emotional/intellectual manipulation. Yet, this kind of morality can only validate the Biblical god's actions as moral, regardless of how the atheist/materialist interprets them, because god would have arbitrarily selected the moral principles it wants to install and has used a form of might to install them. If god seems hypocritical in its application of morality, so what? Hypocrisy is only immoral when and if god says it is, because god - the mightiest of us all - gets to subjectively justify whatever morality it wants based upon the only kind of morality that exists for the atheists/materialists - subjective morality. Thus, the atheist/materialist has no grounds upon which to rest a case that the god of the bible is a moral monster (regardless of whether or not their interpretation of that god is well-informed or a simple childhood-based caricature), because it cannot be justified using the Bible's morality (since god is the source of morality), and it cannot be justified using the subjective morality grounds of the atheist/materialist. If they cannot rationally make the case (and they cannot) that the god of the Bible is a "moral monster", from whence (other than ill-considered emotional outrage) comes their confidence that such a god is a "moral monster", if not the hidden, unspoken grounds that everyone should find such an entity immoral? I think this is the basis for the atheist/materialist outrage, and justification for dirty tricks used against believers, for the name-calling and no-holds-barred attacks; while they give lip-service to "subjective morality", they consider the Biblical god (at least, their conception of it) so objectively evil that they are willing to go to virtually any lengths to stop those who follow it. It is relatively easy to see their situation for the self-refuting, groundless position that it is; if morality is fundamentally relative, then Biblical morality is just another morality among many, and there exists no objective "good" by which the god of the Bible can be judged a "moral monster". The only way one can justify a condemnation of a "moral monster" god based on any grounds that do not simultaneously justify that god or condemn one's own position, is if an objective good actually exists, and morality is a description of an objective good; and the only way an objective good (final cause, purpose of humans, ground for "ought") can exist is if god actually exists - just not the conception of god they are rightfully condemning as immoral. Thus, the only way to rationally, with grounds, condemn a concept of god as a "moral monster" is to posit that a better god exists; because such a god cannot be successfully condemned on ultimately subjective-morality grounds. "Because I say so", when invoked by the atheist/materialist as grounds for moral condemnation, is no different from when a "moral monster" god asserts the converse.William J Murray
August 30, 2011
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Dr Torley: Thank you. For the sake of the civil peace of justice, we need to take a firm stand against the pattern of willful misrepresentation, hostility and target-painting that is now emerging. I have literally seen how that sort of hostility, demonising, targetting and trumpeted talking points can rapidly lead the unhinged -- like Breivik -- to act out the hate. Thirty one years ago, I lost an "aunt" to such propaganda tactics, and I can never forget hearing the representatives of the radical Front group who spread the slander that led to murder, on radio blandly denying any responsibility for the results of their cultivation of a fever swamp of hate. Of course, predictably, we do not like to learn from history like that. That is why it tends to repeat itself over and over again, predictably. So, the time to stop this madness is NOW, before it gets utterly out of hand. Criticism that focuses on issues and makes fair comment is one thing, target-painting is another, and those who indulge in it should feel the full force of the disapproval of all well-thinking people, including ESPECIALLY those who agree with them on the issues. That's vital, as in the sort of twisted minds we are now talking about, those on the other side have been demonised and discredited long since. I hope my remarks below will begin to help clear the air of the poison that is in it from burning, ad hominem soaked demonised strawmen. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 30, 2011
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It is no surprise then to see that when Locke, in his 2nd essay on Civil Government, Ch 2, where he laid the foundations of modern democratic praxis, did so by citing the then famous Anglican Canon Richard Hooker, in his classic Ecclesiastical Polity, thusly:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man's hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [[Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [[Eccl. Polity,preface, Bk I, "ch." 8, p.80, cf. here.]
The same Spirit breathes in Blackstone's 1765 Commentaries on the Laws of England, the now often neglected foundation stone of modern anglophone legal education. Citing:
Man, considered as a creature, must necessarily be subject to the laws of his creator, for he is entirely a dependent being . . . consequently, as man depends absolutely upon his maker for every thing, it is necessary that he should in all points conform to his maker's will. This will of his maker is called the law of nature. For as God, when he created matter, and endued it with a principle of mobility, established certain rules for the perpetual direction of that motion; so, when he created man, and endued him with freewill to conduct himself in all parts of life, he laid down certain immutable laws of human nature, whereby that freewill is in some degree regulated and restrained, and gave him also the faculty of reason to discover the purport of those laws . . . These are the eternal, immutable laws of good and evil, to which the creator himself in all his dispensations conforms; and which he has enabled human reason to discover, so far as they are necessary for the conduct of human actions. Such among others are these principles: that we should live honestly [NB: cf. Exod. 20:15 - 16], should hurt nobody [NB: cf. Rom 13:8 - 10], and should render to every one his due [NB: cf. Rom 13:6 - 7 & Exod. 20:15]; to which three general precepts Justinian[1: a Juris praecepta sunt hace, honeste vivere. alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere. Inst, 1. 1. 3] has reduced the whole doctrine of law [and, Corpus Juris, Justinian's Christianised precis and pruning of perhaps 1,000 years of Roman jurisprudence, in turn is the foundation of law for much of Europe].
So, we had better be careful indeed about carelessly trifling with the foundations of the civil peace of justice through promoting inherently amoral worldviews and caricaturing that which lies in the tap-root of modern liberty and democracy. In case you think I am exaggerating the matter, let me finally cite Will Hawthorne's expose:
Assume (per impossibile) that atheistic naturalism [[= evolutionary materialism] is true. Assume, furthermore, that one can't infer an 'ought' from an 'is' [[the 'is' being in this context physicalist: matter-energy, space- time, chance and mechanical forces]. (Richard Dawkins and many other atheists should grant both of these assumptions.) Given our second assumption, there is no description of anything in the natural world from which we can infer an 'ought'. And given our first assumption, there is nothing that exists over and above the natural world; the natural world is all that there is. It follows logically that, for any action you care to pick, there's no description of anything in the natural world from which we can infer that one ought to refrain from performing that action. Add a further uncontroversial assumption: an action is permissible if and only if it's not the case that one ought to refrain from performing that action . . . [[We see] therefore, for any action you care to pick, it's permissible to perform that action. If you'd like, you can take this as the meat behind the slogan 'if atheism is true, all things are permitted'. For example if atheism is true, every action Hitler performed was permissible. Many atheists don't like this consequence of their worldview. But they cannot escape it and insist that they are being logical at the same time. Now, we all know that at least some actions are really not permissible (for example, racist actions). Since the conclusion of the argument denies this, there must be a problem somewhere in the argument. Could the argument be invalid? No. The argument has not violated a single rule of logic and all inferences were made explicit. Thus we are forced to deny the truth of one of the assumptions we started out with. That means we either deny atheistic naturalism or (the more intuitively appealing) principle that one can't infer 'ought' from [[a material] 'is'.
These are the challenges that promoters of atheistical, angry, evolutionary materialism that holds science hostage as an a priori, would distract us from by focussing ill-deserved outrage elsewhere through unjust, strawmannish caricatures. So, it is high time that we held such accountable for their wanton arguments and willfully mischievous, hostility-stirring slanderous misbehaviour and blatant painting of targets on those they object to. (For instance, the particular case particularly in point has not only falsely accused me of being a child abuser, but wishes to project he "right ignorant/ stupid/ insane/ wicked, wing Christo-fascist theocratic would-be tyrant" slanderous caricature, in the teeth of pretty direct evidence that I am a convinced democrat and civil libertarian who -- having lived through its consequences -- is deeply suspicious of any species of political messianism. [And BTW, FYI, as National SOCIALIST reveals, despite much propaganda and misinformation to the contrary, Fascism is statist and leftist in character; it is rightwards from outright Communism, indeed, but that does not put it on the right-wing of the full political spectrum.) GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 30, 2011
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Bantay Thanks for the alert. TARGETTING BEHAVIOUR, JOINED TO THE SORT OF PROJECTION OF WANTING TO "TAKE OVER" THE WORLD (GUESS WHO ARE THEREBY INADVERTENTLY CONFESSING TO ALREADY CONTROLLING THE WORLD BY ASSOCIATION WITH THE HIGH PRIESTHOOD OF MATERIALIST/"RATIONAL[IST]" SCIENTISTS . . .), IN THE HANDS OF THE EXCESSIVELY ANGRY AND NIHILISTIC, IS QUITE DANGEROUS. We are only just beginning to learn some of the dangers of a webbed world. Breivik should be a lesson, and a clear warning of what can be going on on the fringes. So let us resolve not to foment hate or dehumanise and demonise the "other." That is why the trifecta fallacy I have repeatedly warned against --
(1) distractive red herrings, led away to (2) strawmen caricatures soaked in (3) ad hominems and ignited through incendiary rhetoric that then clouds, poisons and polarsies the atmosphere [especially in fever swamps like you linked above, where the unhinged go to tank up on rage and talking points] --
. . . is such a dangerous sign. It is not only design thinkers who need to address this, those who lead the anti-ID movement, if they are at all responsible, must police their own movement and clean up their act. Before further abuse, or violence or bloodshed comes of it. It is not for nothing that the apostle James warns:
James 3:3 When we put bits into the mouths of horses to make them obey us, we can turn the whole animal. 4 Or take ships as an example. Although they are so large and are driven by strong winds, they are steered by a very small rudder wherever the pilot wants to go. 5 Likewise the tongue is a small part of the body, but it makes great boasts. Consider what a great forest is set on fire by a small spark. 6 The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.
In this context, the moral monster talking point Dr Torley highlighted in the original post is particularly irresponsible. When the advocates who use it are themselves rooted in a worldview, evo mat, that has in it no IS that can ground OUGHT, thus no defence against Nietzschean nihilism, then there is a dilemma. If they know this, but insist on emotively loaded language designed to stir up emotions or moral outrage and hostility, then they are being cynically manipulative in order to poison the atmosphere to their advantage. If they are instead unaware of the IS-OUGHT gap and are genuine in their outrage, they reveal a telling ignorance, as they SHOULD know better. And, if morality is real then that immediately points to the need for a worldview that has a foundational IS that can ground OUGHT. At worldviews and comparative difficulties level, as can be seen from here on, the only serious candidate for such an IS that can ground OUGHT is that the world is the creation of an inherently good God. Obviously the God at the centre of the Judaeo-Christian tradition that is foundational to our civilisation, is that kind of God. Yes, one can pick especially OT texts of judgement out of context . . .
[e.g. if the literal meaning of the rhetoric involved in the key OT snippets is racialist genocide (and now manifest in an alleged inherently racist sand apartheid-like "Zionist entity" per that now regretted UN vote and the series of Durban conferences -- yes, this is what is really going on . . . ), why does the text immediately envision living with survivors across generations? And, why is it that the greatest King of Israel, David, is portrayed as having Moabite ancestry, as being guarded by Philistines, as having 600 Philistines adhere to him, as having Ittai from Gath [Goliath's hometown!] as one of his three top generals, and of course as less righteous than Uriah the Hittite who was married to the granddaughter of his chief counsellor?],
. . . and can cite misbehaviours of the Israelites as though that were endorsed behaviour [why did they go into exile under judgement TWICE, and why is it that for ten plagues of the Egyptians, we see ten tests of nascent Israel in the wilderness?], but to then turn around and suppress the context of justice, principles of neighbourliness, praising of the righteous of all nations, etc etc, is willful stirring of hostility by erecting a demonised strawman. Let us pause to highlight the central teaching of ethics in community in the OT, right there in that so-despised "bronze age" law that so patently (and NOT coincidentally) cuts across politically correct, destructive proclivities in our day -- e.g. the habit of slander that this comment is having to address:
Lev. 19:11 “‘Do not steal. “‘Do not lie. “‘Do not deceive one another. 12 “‘Do not swear falsely by my name and so profane the name of your God. I am the LORD. 13 “‘Do not defraud your neighbor or rob him. “‘Do not hold back the wages of a hired man overnight. 14 “‘Do not curse the deaf or put a stumbling block in front of the blind, but fear your God. I am the LORD. 15 “‘Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly. 16 “‘Do not go about spreading slander among your people. “‘Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor’s life. I am the LORD. 17 “‘Do not hate your brother in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in his guilt. 18 “‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. [notice, the immediate context of the Golden Rule] I am the LORD.
You will search in vain to find its close parallel in the law systems of the ANE, and that you find this principle in the historical foundation of our own legal systems is precisely because this Israelite precedent is its root. Notice, particularly, the focus on avoiding a pattern of hostility, slander and deception in the community. [ . . . ]kairosfocus
August 30, 2011
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Didn't mean to stir things up, but just figured if someone is targeting some of us in some desperate (and misguided) smear campaign that you would want to know. Fortunately, the camera doesn't like me.Bantay
August 29, 2011
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Kairosfocus, Thank you for alerting readers to recent examples of what hatred can do to an individual. We in the ID community need to unite against any form of violence or intimidation. I'm sure many readers (of all ideological stripes) will stand with us on this one. My thoughts and prayers are with you and your family. Take care, and thanks for the updates.vjtorley
August 29, 2011
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rhampton7 Good question. As the case for Intelligent Design is built on complex specified patterns that we find in Nature, then we must assume that this case could never be made unless Nature conformed to underlying regularities in the first place. I couldn't point to the bacterial flagellum as evidence for design, for instance, unless it were reliably visible under the microscope, under the right conditions. The laws of Nature (e.g. energy conservation) may be relatively low in CSI, but they must reliably hold, in order for us to make the case for Intelligent Design. In other words, ID theory implicitly assumes that things behave according to built-in tendencies or dispositions. That, as Professor Edward Feser would readily agree, is final causality. So in answer to your question, ID theory assumes final causality in at least a minimal sense. Let me add that it's a fairly non-controversial sense; all we are acknowledging is that things have tendencies or dispositions. I think most scientists would grant as much. Professor Feser goes a little further and argues that these natural tendencies are future-directed, in both the organic and inorganic realms. ID theory does not require this assumption, although I'd have to say that in the biological realm the empirical evidence for future-directed tendencies is overwhelming (think of genetic programs). In the inorganic realm, it's a different matter: the laws of Nature are time-symmetric. But that is the subject of a future post.vjtorley
August 29, 2011
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In this article and another, the word "may" is used, and I'd like some clarification (emphasis mine).
On the other hand, ID implies that some events may potentially have irreducible final causal explanation [from "Broader Implications of ID"] ...materialism implies that there is no such thing as an irreducible final cause while ID says there may really be final causes
If you meant to say that ID theory does not rule out an irreducible final cause, then it's reasonable to conclude that ID theory also does not rule the antithesis - materialism.rhampton7
August 29, 2011
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F/N: In addition to all this, it seems DM believes in the reality of evil. So, the reality of OUGHT. Thus, DM is in the position of defending a worldview that has no IS that can ground OUGHT, by making objections to what DM thinks ought not to be. DM needs to address the question of whether DM's evident materialism or evident outrage at perceived evils,is more soundly based; and in the former case DM would be guilty of cynical emotional manipulation. NB: This mainly philosophical discussion on the import of evil as a reality may help; this on evil from a specifically Christian perspective, will also help those who are not simply stirring up rage to warp judgement. (It also points to fora that are better suited to that sort of discussion.) And, given the recent example of Breivik, and the matters that have come up in this thread from here on, I think DM and others of like ilk who resort to moral monster and theocracy accusation rhetoric or the like, should pause and think very carefully indeed on what the more unhinged on their side of the fence may be tempted to through such intemperate and irresponsible rhetoric. I think the time has plainly come for all reasonable minded participants in the ID debates, to stoutly stand up and say no to the sort of dangerous line of rhetoric and behaviour that have begun to emerge over the past several months. Before, something goes horribly wrong. Remember, the students at Columbine gave off warning signals in good time, if people had woken up and been inclined taken them seriously as a call to urgent action. It is therefore time to think very seriously, objectors to design theory, as to what the sort of rhetoric that has too often been by your side used points to, in the hands of the Harrises, Klebolds and Breiviks of this world. Let's clip the just linked, and do some serious thinking:
Early warning signs began to surface in 1996, when Eric Harris first created a private website on America Online. The site was originally set up to host Doom levels that he and Dylan Klebold had created, mainly for friends. Harris began a blog on the site, which included jokes and small journal entries concerning his thoughts on parents, school, and friends. By the end of the year, the site contained instructions on how to cause mischief, as well as instructions on how to make explosives, and logs of the trouble he and Klebold were causing. Beginning in early 1997, the blog postings began to show the first signs of Harris's ever-growing anger against society.[4] Harris's site had few visitors, and caused no concern until late 1997, when Dylan Klebold gave the address to Brooks Brown, Harris's former friend. Brown's mother had filed numerous complaints with the Jefferson County Sheriff's office about Eric Harris, believing him to be dangerous . . .
Of course, no-one took the signs seriously enough to act in good time. I am taking this opportunity, in one of the leading ID blogs, to say that there is an ugly, potentially dangerous side to the objection to ID movement, and it is high time that responsible people on that side who have more direct access to the sort of individuals in view, took time to police them. Before something horrible happens. And if you are tempted to dismiss this, jut think about names like Harris, Klebold and Brevik, among others. What I am seeing above is target-painting behaviour, and it is beyond any reasonable or responsible behaviour on this topic. It needs to stop now, before the unhinged take it as "licensing" them to do the sort of things that have already happened with other things. I think enough has been said. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 29, 2011
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To put in perspective, let's say one word:
BREIVIK
kairosfocus
August 29, 2011
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This is the same who was warned that he has been painting targets on the backs of my family [as in we know you, we know where you are, we think we know your family], and was formally and publicly asked to cease and desist. This is clear cyber harassment and will be treated as such.kairosfocus
August 29, 2011
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dmullenix Thank you for your post. I'd like to make a few points in response. 1. You write:
May I remind everybody that it’s pretty standard Christian theology that God has already built a much better universe – a perfect universe in fact. It’s called “Heaven”. Consider that a “Proof by Demonstration” that a better universe can be built.
Uh, no. I'd consider that an ad hominem argument. It only works on people who believe in Heaven. Intelligent Design theory says nothing about the existence of Heaven. It is quite compatible, for instance, with the existence of a God who just made this universe. And since you can't describe how Heaven works, on a physical level, I'd hardly call that "proof by demonstration". By the way, you do realize, don't you, that according to at least one very prominent Christian theologian (Aquinas), there will be no plants or animals after the end of the world: http://dhspriory.org/thomas/QDdePotentia.htm#5:9 If God had made a universe like that from the get-go and put us there, there would certainly have been no suffering - but there would have been no animals either. 2. You also write:
Since it is ID Dogma that ONLY an intelligence can create information, and particularly the information found in the DNA of living organisms, then the Intelligent Designer logically must have also designed the DNA in malaria parasites (Behe admits this)...
I happen to have Behe's book, The Edge of Evolution (The Free Press, New York, 2007), in front of me. Here is what he says on pages 237-239:
Here's something to ponder long and hard. Malaria was intentionally designed. The molecular machinery with which the parasite invades red blood cells is an exquisitely designed purposeful arrangement of parts. C-Eve's children died in her arms partly because an intelligent agent deliberately made malaria, or at least something very similar to it. What sort of designer is that? What sort of "fine-tuning" leads to untold human misery? To countless mothers mourning countless children? Did a hateful, malign being make intelligent life in order to torture it? Or one who relishes cries of pain? Maybe. Maybe not. A torrent of pain indisputably swirls through the world - not only the world of humans but the world of sentient animal life as well. Yet just as undeniably, much that is good graces nature. Many children die, yet many others thrive. Some people languish, but others savor full lives. Does one outweigh the other? If so, which outweighs which? Or are pleasure and pain, good and evil, incommensurable? Are viruses and parasites part of some brilliant, as-yet-unappreciated economy of nature, or do they reflect the bungling of an incompetent, fallible designer? Whether on balance one thinks life was a worthwhile project or not – whether the designer of life was a dope, a demon, or a deity – that’s a topic on which opinions over the millennia have differed considerably. Each argument has some merit. Of the many possible opinions, only one is really indefensible, the one held by Darwin. In a letter to Asa Gray, he wrote: "I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent and omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living body of caterpillars. Wasp larvae feeding on caterpillars is certainly a disquieting image, to say nothing of malaria feeding on children. So did Darwin conclude that the designer was not beneficent? Maybe not omnipotent? No. He decided – based on squeamishness – that no designer existed. Because it is horrific, it was not designed - a better example of the fallacy of non sequitur would be hard to find. Revulsion is not a scientific argument. (Bold emphases mine – VJT.)
I believe Professor Behe is quite clear here that the DNA in malaria parasites was intelligently designed. But by whom? Behe leaves his options open here: it may have been "a dope, a demon, or a deity". You are assuming that all of the complex specified information (CSI) found in living organisms is the work of a single intelligence. That's not my assumption, and it's not Behe's, either. For my own part, when talking about structures containing large amounts of CSI, I believe it is legitimate to ascribe the pervasive features of the cosmos (e.g. fine-tuned constants) and of life as a whole (e.g. DNA, commonly shared cellular machinery and molecules) to a single designer. But if we are talking about this or that piece of biological machinery in this or that organism - that's a different kettle of fish. The designer of these things could well have been a malevolent agent, and not the Designer of the cosmos. On the subject of malaria: according to a recent press release (see http://www.nsf.gov/news/news_summ.jsp?cntn_id=117259 ) by the National Science Foundation, modern malaria parasites began to spread to various mammals, birds and reptiles about 16 million years ago. Malaria parasites may jump to new, unrelated hosts at any time, decoupling their evolution from that of their hosts. The ancestors of humans acquired the parasite 2.5 million years ago - very close to the time when Homo first appeared. However, according to Dr. Robert Ricklefs, one of the biologists who conducted the recent research into the origin of the malaria parasite, "Malaria parasites undoubtedly were relatively benign for most of that history, becoming a major disease only after the origins of agriculture and dense human populations." As for Darwin's famous example of Ichneumonidae feeding within the living body of caterpillars: modern neurologists are unanimous that insects are incapable of conscious suffering. They are not sentient. See The Neurobehavioral Nature of Fishes and the Question of Awareness and Pain . So Darwin used a really silly example to argue against a beneficent Deity. 3. You also write:
And what’s all this predation? According to Christian and Jewish orthodoxy, the lions used to lay down with the lambs until two people ate one fruit and thus learned the difference between right and wrong. Was it really necessary for an omnipotent being to condemn half the animals on earth to become prey for the other half because of this? What did mice ever do to deserve cats?
Once again, you appeal to "Christian and Jewish orthodoxy". Intelligent Design theory as such doesn't assume the truth of either orthodoxy, although there happen to be many Christians and Jews who support ID. Where's your scientific demonstration that a world containing animals but not predation would be possible? Under what laws would it operate? I should add that St. Thomas Aquinas did not believe that there was no predation before the Fall. See here: http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1096.htm#article1 (scroll down to the reply to objection 2) Quite a few Christian theologians sided with Aquinas, too, even back in the Middle Ages. Here's something else to think about: death from predation is at least quick. Most other ways of dying (e.g. death from disease, starvation or cold) are long and drawn-out. Maybe a God who designed predators isn't so bad after all. 4. Concerning fine-tuning arguments, you write:
An extremely large or infinite number of universes, each with randomly generated laws, completely answers the fine-tuning argument. If you say the odds of any particular universe are 99999999999999999 to 1 against, all it takes is a few gazillion times more universes to make it a dead certainty. This works for any odds.
No, it doesn't. Please see these articles by me: Why a multiverse would still need to be fine-tuned, in order to make baby universes Beauty and the multiverse and this one by Dr. Rob Sheldon: Infinitely wrong 5. You also write that "atheists tend not to believe the Bible". Of course - but I've encountered some atheists who argue so ferociously and so incessantly against the God of the Bible that I can only assume that deep-down, they are afraid that He might be real after all - which is why they feel the need to belittle Him constantly. I'm not saying that most atheists are like this, but they are by no means rare. 6. Finally, you write that "the universe ... [is] about what we’d expect if materialism is true – but if it was DESIGNED, then there is a DESIGNER and that designer truly is a moral monster." If materialism were true, I'd expect a much crazier universe than this one. I wouldn't expect laws of Nature, for one thing. And if you object that I wouldn't be here if there weren't laws of Nature, here's my response: (i) I certainly wouldn't expect to find myself (or any other sapient being) in a materialistic universe; (ii) even if there had been natural regularities holding up until now, enabling me to come into existence, I wouldn't expect them to continue holding, as the number of ways they could break down vastly exceeds the number of ways they could continue to hold. So I'd be expecting the sky to fall any second. By the way, there about 8.7 million species of creatures living on this planet. Of these, no more than 15,000 species (mammals and birds) are sentient. That's 0.2%. Of these, the vast majority, at any given time, are not in a state of extreme pain. If all these creatures had a Designer, I'd hardly call Him a monster.vjtorley
August 29, 2011
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We ought to send that guy a thank you note for being such a shining example of neo-Darwinian dogmatism,,,, post after post of nothing but hatred towards anything, or anyone, remotely reflecting on God's handiwork;,,, ================= Mandisa - Waiting For Tomorrow - music video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5VlRwoaf8kbornagain77
August 29, 2011
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That site is easily explained as the result of mindless interactions of matter.William J Murray
August 29, 2011
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Bantay, Consider the source! The whole tard is deeply and emotionally troubled.Joseph
August 29, 2011
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It looks like somebody we know is hunting for photos of Kairosfocus, I and others. Here is the quote from the blog entry "Does anyone have a picture of kairosfocus? AKA gordon e. mullings of Montserrat. I'd really like to find pictures of him. Also, clive hayden, uprightbiped, joseph (joe g), vjtorley, jack cole, ilion without his fingers glued to his forehead, cannuckianyankee, lamarck, meleagar, stephenb, or bantay. I may think of others later. Any links to photos of them would be appreciated." http://theidiotsofintelligentdesign.blogspot.com/2011/08/does-anyone-have-picture-of-kairosfocus.htmlBantay
August 29, 2011
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One wonders, if materialist physics programs both the expectation of what one would expect from a materialist universe, and how one interprets the universe (in accordance with such expectations), how such a system would be different from solipsism? It would be like being in a dream where physics is the dreamer; what would seem "out of place" or "against expectations" when you are programmed by the dreamer to not feel surprise or any sense of conflict with expectations, no matter what occurs? You only feel surprise if the dreamer dreams you that way, not because something contradicts your expectations - because "you" are not an independent agency within the dream. Everything seems normal in the dream; usually, it's only when one wakes up that one realizes anything was amiss. Unfortunately, under materialism there is no "waking up".William J Murray
August 29, 2011
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dmullenix You say here "May I remind everybody that it’s pretty standard Christian theology that God has already built a much better universe – a perfect universe in fact. " That's not true. Heaven is not a "universe" in the sense of a natural universe that we live in. Heaven is a place in the spiritual realm, a non-physical, immaterial yet very real place with different conditions that is perfect for righteous beings, sufficient for their needs for eternity forward. You say here "The Bible does make God out to be a moral monster " Obviously you have not read Paul Copan's book "Is God A Moral Monster?". You need to. "dooming humanity because of the sins of the first two humans" Absolutely false. God made a way for humanity to be saved, forgiven of their sin and rebellion against God, made righteous from God's perspective and have a secure future in heaven for all eternity. This can hardly be characterized as doom. But if the atheist world view is true....well that would be a real downer wouldn't it?; The ultimate fail, not having any ultimate, enduring hope. That's doom. Here you say " killing everybody on earth save eight because of the Hitlerian claim that they were all evil" I don't know where you're getting the Hitlerian thing...but it's not going on. Have you heard of Godwins Law? In any case, eight people were not saved because everyone else was evil, but for humanity to live. Murder was so rampant during that time that it was boasted about (Gen 4:23-24) from the time of Cain to the time of Noah (Gen 6:5,11). It was a matter of human survival that those who were evil be destroyed so that the few (8) righteous in the Mesopotamian Basic could live. The Hanuaorani tribe in eastern Equador is a prime example of what can happen when murder and evil goes unchecked. Due to murders and revenge-killings, they were almost extinct by the time they had first contact with Christian missionaries in the early 1950's. In the case of the unchecked evil and murderous culture just prior to the biblical flood, it is evident that God had a morally sufficient reason to eliminate the ones who were causing humanity's near extinction, and saving the few who were not evil. Here you say " finding Himself somehow unable to forgive the human race until He’d had His own Son tortured to death " If this statement is true, then the biblical account would have to be true. If you believe the Bible on this count, why not on all counts? In any case, here you are admitting that God did sacrifice His own Son, Jesus, who endured torture and experienced death. You're making good progress here. There's more though. Jesus was resurrected from the dead and witnessed by over 500 people over a 40 day period. I invite you to check out the positive evidence for the Resurrection, beginning with some of the debates by Dr. William Lane Craig vs everyone, or Mike Licona vs Ehrman. It needs to be clarified, just so that you aren't mistaken, that God has not forgiven the entire human race. After the Resurrection, God only forgives those who choose to be forgiven based on the work Jesus accomplished on the Cross. If after hearing about Jesus and the gospel anyone is not forgiven, it is because they chose not to be. In which case, their eternal demise, if not with God, is not God's fault but one's own. Here you say "Our objections are based on the universe as we find it. It’s about what we’d expect if materialism is true" Others have come to different conclusions, based on evidence from the same universe. The universe they (we)find has characteristics of what they (we) would expect if the universe was designed. Here you say "but if it was DESIGNED, then there is a DESIGNER and that designer truly is a moral monster." In order for this statement to be true, you first have to prove that God did not have any morally sufficient reason to allow or cause what you consider to be evil. Until that time, I think the best you can do is just make an emotional appeal via the objection from evil. But that's not very interesting. In fact, it's kinda boring. More interesting is that if God did NOT exist, then evil would not exist. You have made it very clear that evil does exist (obviously you believe God is a moral monster...most people would consider that evil). Therefore, God exists.Bantay
August 29, 2011
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There isn't any evidence to support the claim of a completely random universe.Joseph
August 29, 2011
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dmullenix, Of course, your objections fail under general theism & deism, but to follow up on your Christian-specific and morality-specific objections:
Not really. The Bible does make God out to be a moral monster – dooming humanity because of the sins of the first two humans, killing everybody on earth save eight because of the Hitlerian claim that they were all evil, hardening Pharaoh’s heart so He could continue to torment Egypt in order to show off His powers, punishing David for seducing Bathsheba and murdering her husband by killing their baby, finding Himself somehow unable to forgive the human race until He’d had His own Son tortured to death – but atheists tend not to believe the Bible.
IF we assume Christianity is true, then God is the source of "what is moral"; THEN what god does is necessarily moral, even if contingent acts seemingly contradict general moral rules, "God's will" is the only source by which morality can be judged. IF we assume that Christianity is not true, then what system of principled morality do you refer to in your judgement that the god of the Bible is a "moral monster"? You failed to provide your basis for your judgement - please do so.
Our objections are based on the universe as we find it.
Are you also a materialist or a physicalist? If so, then your objections are not based on "how you find it", but rather on how you have been programmed by physics to interpret it. Without a basis for free and independent will and the discernment of true statements from false, using such pronouns as if you are separate from any other entity fronting accumulative physical causes is intellectually dishonest.
It’s about what we’d expect if materialism is true
You mean, your physical programming instructs you to believe that it is what you'd expect if materialism is true, while the same physics programs others to believe in the converse? Why is what you are commanded by physics to say and believe better than what anyone else commanded by physics says or believes?William J Murray
August 29, 2011
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Dmul, So your objection is completely a religious one and not a scientific one? Hmmm.CannuckianYankee
August 29, 2011
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Note to administrators: if you enter a message and then click on the "Reply" at the bottom of the text box which shows what you're written with the final formatting it will have, and then click on "Post Comment", your reply seems to go to the earliest message available.dmullenix
August 29, 2011
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My goodness, where to start? “1. If you don’t like the universe that we live in, then the onus is on you to show that a better universe is physically possible, given a different set of laws and/or a different fundamental theory of physics. Only when you have done this are you entitled to make the argument that our universe is so poorly designed that no Intelligent Being could possibly have made it.” This is an ID classic! May I remind everybody that it’s pretty standard Christian theology that God has already built a much better universe – a perfect universe in fact. It’s called “Heaven”. Consider that a “Proof by Demonstration” that a better universe can be built. With respect to point 4: Since it is ID Dogma that ONLY an intelligence can create information, and particularly the information found in the DNA of living organisms, then the Intelligent Designer logically must have also designed the DNA in malaria parasites (Behe admits this), typhus, influenza, bacterial meningitis, the black plague, small pox, diphtheria and all the other thousands of diseases that have been causing misery and death through all of human history. (Not to mention all the animals that fall victim every day.) Would it be asking too much of the Intelligent Designer to stop making them? Or to at least spare the children? And what’s all this predation? According to Christian and Jewish orthodoxy, the lions used to lay down with the lambs until two people ate one fruit and thus learned the difference between right and wrong. Was it really necessary for an omni-potent being to condemn half the animals on earth to become prey for the other half because of this? What did mice ever do to deserve cats? “5. Objections to fine-tuning are of no avail unless they are even more powerful than arguments for fine-tuning.” An extremely large or infinite number of universes, each with randomly generated laws, completely answers the fine-tuning argument. If you say the odds of any particular universe are 99999999999999999 to 1 against, all it takes is a few gazillion times more universes to make it a dead certainty. This works for any odds. 7: “(iii) but it is impossible that the God of the Bible could exist, because He is a “moral monster”; (iv) hence, the cosmological fine-tuning argument is not true. This is a pathological form of reasoning, since it is emotionally driven by a visceral dislike of the God of the Bible. Nevertheless, I believe this form of reasoning is quite common among atheists.” Not really. The Bible does make God out to be a moral monster – dooming humanity because of the sins of the first two humans, killing everybody on earth save eight because of the Hitlerian claim that they were all evil, hardening Pharaoh’s heart so He could continue to torment Egypt in order to show off His powers, punishing David for seducing Bathsheba and murdering her husband by killing their baby, finding Himself somehow unable to forgive the human race until He’d had His own Son tortured to death – but atheists tend not to believe the Bible. Personally, I think the only thing God could really be blamed for in the above list is killing the baby. The Fall, the Flood and the Exodus are mythical. Our objections are based on the universe as we find it. It’s about what we’d expect if materialism is true – but if it was DESIGNED, then there is a DESIGNER and that designer truly is a moral monster. Why Christians want to blame this universe on your God is beyond me.dmullenix
August 29, 2011
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Testdmullenix
August 29, 2011
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Neil, in today's world, with the thorough subversion of theoretical science (incl. math) to serve political and materialistic ends, it is no longer helpful to know that someone is educated in a topic. It can often mean miseducation. Either one has defensible arguments or they don't, regardless of background. In the case of convenient limitations to conclusions on probability, there is 100% justified certainty that if you successfully double-down five times in a row on a number bet in roulette, puffy-armed men in suits will come to escort you to the exit of the casino. They will not be impressed with your Certainty argument, nor should they.SpitfireIXA
August 28, 2011
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I guess when you are just matter animated by physics, contradicting yourself is just one more thing that happens that cannot be helped.
No, I have not contradicted myself. You have yourself quoted what I actually said, and what was asserted that I said. The two statements are clearly different in both wording and meaning.Neil Rickert
August 28, 2011
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